Need some parenting books and resources

[maestramommy]

Dh and I are seriously at a loss as to how to deal with Dora. Her tantrums are increasing in number. It's as if she can no longer handle any limits. Any no's or "yes you have to" upsets her, and she starts out whining, complaining, escalating, and if we don't figure out a way to snap her out of it, it becomes a full blown meltdown. Being with her is (it saddens me to say) become rather joyless. In addition she is resisting parts of the daily routine that only a couple of weeks ago were nothing. Like brushing her teeth before bed. The last couple of nights were a wrestling match, and tonight the only way to get her to cooperate was to say, "okay, you're just going to bed then." Meaning I was going to put her pjs on, and she wouldn't get reading time. That snapped her out of it pretty quickly, but she complained the entire time.

We just returned last Friday from a weeklong trip to CA, so I can understand if she's still out of sorts, jet-lagged, whatever. And she just started preschool today, 2 hours. The teacher said she did great, but she started going south even before we left, and by the time we got home she was screaming and ranting because I couldn't figure out which CD she wanted to hear in the car:eek:

Dh and I decided to read some books that outline developmental stages so we can 1) confirm whether this is normal behavior, and 2) see what we can do about it until it blows over into the next stage. So far I'm getting "What to Expect the Toddler Years" and "1-2-3 Magic" from my local library. Any other suggestions for titles? Also, we have access to some parenting resources from our regional center even though we're not clients. Is there anything I can ask about, from those of you who have availed themselves of such resources? TIA!

[egoldber]

Welcome to 3. Or rather 3.5. That's when we hit the wall with Sarah. :hug:

But, she is going through a LOT right now. Starting school/preschool can be a very, very hard transition for some kids. If I remember correctly, she's a bit of an introvert/observer? In which case, the energy and dynamic of preschool is probably very, very emotionally draining to her. It uses all her resources to hold it together at school and then she comes home and just explodes. Very normal. Tough, but normal. And then plus adjusting from a cross country trip over the holidays....well that's just a lot.

I would give it a few weeks to see if it gets better. In the meantime, consistency and routine are key. Make sure she eats a good brekafast with plenty of protein. And a quick snack (even giving it to her as you pick her up in the classroom and while walking to the car) immediately after preschool helped Sarah immensely.

[brittone2]

I know tantruming is annoying (DD is more into tantrums than DS was, at least so far). Is she still having some issues w/ her verbal skills? Increased tantruming is pretty common if she has any sort of expressive delay persisting.

I'm also of the mindset that you can't do much to control a tantrum. (I try to tell myself happy isn't the only acceptable emotion. Note, I say try ;) )

Have you considered teaching her some self help/self regulating skills? Gentlechristianmothers has some good info on the comfort corner, teaching things like deep breathing, etc. Basically these are life long skills, and I think many of us (myself included!!) wish we had more coping mechanisms to deal w/ stress. There are also tips for getting kids to get their frustrations out in other ways (subbing stamping your feet for hitting, or learning to do an "angry dance" or draw a picture about your anger.). Some kids need the physical release that a tantrum gives them, which is why the "angry dance" and ideas like that can work...it gives an outlet to those boiling up feelings.

My favorite books:
Playful Parenting. Totally worth buying IMO. This is probably one of my all time favorites and you can apply the techniques across many different ages. It feels so awesome when we are able to make strides using *fun* techniques, kwim? And honestly, it often works sooooo well :)

Kurcinka's books (Kids, Parents and Power Struggles (excellent!) as well as Raising your Spirited Child)

Positive Discipline (Nelsen)

Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline (Bailey)

Kids are Worth It (Coloroso)

Parent Effectiveness Training (Gordon) and P.E.T. in Action (oldies but goodies! :) )

Ames and Ilig's series (Your One Year Old, YOur Two Year Old, on up). These I don't like the discipline tips when given so much overall (these are relatively older books), but for a snapshot of typical development and reassurance that my children are not indeed monsters and are in fact doing the very things developmentally that other kids their age are/have been doing for years is oddly reassuring :ROTFLMAO: .

Faber and Mazlish's books (all of them ;)) How to Talk so Kids will Listen and How to Listen so Kids will Talk is awesome and applies into the teen years and even into adult/adult relationships (like dealing w/ DHs;) )

My favorite free resource is www.gentlechristianmothers.com Their Gentle Discipline board is a treasure of great resources and tips IME. I don't consider myself a conservative Christian, but that site has helped me sooooo much through the years, I can't even express it. Truly. Everything from "bean dip" to the 5 steps, to the comfort corner, to happy is not the only acceptable emotion, to "don't ride the wave of *their* emotions"...that site has truly, truly helped our family.

[Twoboos]

I have no immediate advice, but my DD2 is a couple months older than Dora. 3 has been a nightmare. CONSTANT tantrums, HER giving US choices ("The only things I want to eat are ice cream or cookies, you pick one."), whining, complaining, etc. It's so bad that DD1 will plan things around it - "When DD2's done crying, can we go outside?" :ROTFLMAO:

You might not want to listen to me too much, since I don't know if we've done a stellar job with handling it. But we always reiterate that 1) the tantrums will not get what she wants, 2) she can have the tantrum/complaining/whining but has to go into her room or another room so as not to bother others, and 3) stop discussing w/her when she's in that mode, since there's no talking her out of it anyways!!

I also agree w/beth about the snack. DD2 is ALWAYS hungry and will melt down w/o timely food.

There is no way I should be writing the following but... it's getting better? only a little slight bit. maybe. Oh, how I hope I haven't jinxed myself.

Good luck. It's a very frustrating time!!

[brittone2]

Welcome to 3. Or rather 3.5. That's when we hit the wall with Sarah. :hug:

But, she is going through a LOT right now. Starting school/preschool can be a very, very hard transition for some kids. If I remember correctly, she's a bit of an introvert/observer? In which case, the energy and dynamic of preschool is probably very, very emotionally draining to her. It uses all her resources to hold it together at school and then she comes home and just explodes. Very normal. Tough, but normal. And then plus adjusting from a cross country trip over the holidays....well that's just a lot.

I would give it a few weeks to see if it gets better. In the meantime, consistency and routine are key. Make sure she eats a good brekafast with plenty of protein. And a quick snack (even giving it to her as you pick her up in the classroom and while walking to the car) immediately after preschool helped Sarah immensely.
:yeahthat:

To all of the above. So, so true. They often save it up all day and then explode on their parents, unfortunately. They let go because they feel safe doing so with the parent. As an introvert, I find I get totally tired and exhausted when I'm around a lot of people. I can only imagine what it is like for kids with that type of personality. I like people, but it doesn't recharge me like it does for an extrovert :)

[bubbaray]

Welcome to 3 (and 4 in our case). Both are waaaay worse than 2 IMO. I like to say that 4 is the Terrible Twos with a better vocabulary.

We find we have to be consistent and use consequences/logic. I think every kid is different and has different things that work, KWIM?

I'm told (by the wise moms here) that 5 is better. I'm holding them to it because there are days when I think I might seriously lose my mind. Now that DD#2 is soon to turn two, I'd like to implant that twisty straw directly into a vein. J/K. Kinda.

[brittone2]

Welcome to 3 (and 4 in our case). Both are waaaay worse than 2 IMO. I like to say that 4 is the Terrible Twos with a better vocabulary.

We find we have to be consistent and use consequences/logic. I think every kid is different and has different things that work, KWIM?

I'm told (by the wise moms here) that 5 is better. I'm holding them to it because there are days when I think I might seriously lose my mind. Now that DD#2 is soon to turn two, I'd like to implant that twisty straw directly into a vein. J/K. Kinda.

For DS, like a week before he turned 3, there was a noticeable change in behavior. 3 was waaaaaaaay harder for us than 2. But DS's 2 was kind of mild. I suspect DD's version of 2 will be more challenging;) 4 hasn't been a picnic either. He's almost 5. Things seem to be easing up maybe a wee bit.

[maestramommy]

Omigosh, I'm so glad I posted. I've been so frustrated and drained by her lately, and the pregnancy and *&%#@ itching are not helping!

Yes, Dora is still introverted/observer. When I arrived to pick her up it was still a few minutes early, so I peeked in. They were doing music time, which seemed consist of listening to a song and doing movement. Dora, to my utter non-surprise, was doing none of the specific movements, and was standing off to the side, shifting from one foot another while holding a toy. If I had been there, she would've buried her head between my knees until it was over:p

The class is only 2 hours, but they seem to have a lot of activities listed. Assuming they get through most of them, there are a lot of transitions, something Dora isn't used to. Unless it's mealtime or naptime she basically has free play all day at home.

Brittone, to answer your question, Dora is diagnostically caught up in speech, but it's obvious to me that her expressive abilities are still far behind her peers. A lot of her conversation with us consists of scripts she's lifted from Dora the explorer, Blues Clues, or books she's read (where's the bag over the head smiley?). She does have spontaneous conversation, but it's not that often. So when she gets upset the only thing she can say is, "No ____!"

Twoboos, we do try to ignore her during the tantrum, but most of the time it just goes on and on. Picking her up and holding her seems to be the fastest and most permanent way of stopping it, something I've discovered only recently. Also, we're having trouble with the time out because traditionally it's always been in her crib, and now she's able to climb out and stand outside her door to continue on. Basically she hates being isolated, but doing it no longer calms her down like it used to.

I've looked at the Gentle Christian Mothers site before, but I'm a little confused. Do you have to join the forum? Or do you just start clicking on titles? I did that a few times, but it was over a year ago when Dora's issues were different:p

[brittone2]

Omigosh, I'm so glad I posted. I've been so frustrated and drained by her lately, and the pregnancy and *&%#@ itching are not helping!

Yes, Dora is still introverted/observer. When I arrived to pick her up it was still a few minutes early, so I peeked in. They were doing music time, which seemed consist of listening to a song and doing movement. Dora, to my utter non-surprise, was doing none of the specific movements, and was standing off to the side, shifting from one foot another while holding a toy. If I had been there, she would've buried her head between my knees until it was over:p

The class is only 2 hours, but they seem to have a lot of activities listed. Assuming they get through most of them, there are a lot of transitions, something Dora isn't used to. Unless it's mealtime or naptime she basically has free play all day at home.

Brittone, to answer your question, Dora is diagnostically caught up in speech, but it's obvious to me that her expressive abilities are still far behind her peers. A lot of her conversation with us consists of scripts she's lifted from Dora the explorer, Blues Clues, or books she's read (where's the bag over the head smiley?). She does have spontaneous conversation, but it's not that often. So when she gets upset the only thing she can say is, "No ____!"

Twoboos, we do try to ignore her during the tantrum, but most of the time it just goes on and on. Picking her up and holding her seems to be the fastest and most permanent way of stopping it, something I've discovered only recently. Also, we're having trouble with the time out because traditionally it's always been in her crib, and now she's able to climb out and stand outside her door to continue on. Basically she hates being isolated, but doing it no longer calms her down like it used to.

I've looked at the Gentle Christian Mothers site before, but I'm a little confused. Do you have to join the forum? Or do you just start clicking on titles? I did that a few times, but it was over a year ago when Dora's issues were different:p

GCM has some forums you have to join to read, but the Gentle Discipline board is open to the public...you don't need to join or register. What rocks is that it is a free site and it really incorporates a lot of different ideas. I truly think it helped my family *so* much.

The expressive thing is a good point and I was thinking about it a bit before you responded. Even if a child is "caught up" it doesn't mean that they have a huge variety of speech easily accessible to them when their are caught up in big feelings, kwim? I am sure it is tremendously frustrating, but I'd bet that you get some extra tantrum behavior, etc. due to her frustration with maybe not having the right words ready and accessible, especially when she's already frustrated/tired/upset/angry, kwim?
:hug:

eta: if she responds well to being comforted by you with the tantruming, I wonder if she'd do well with a comfort corner. It is basically a non-isolated, non punitive time out. On GCM they often say to think of it as the child version of an adult coffee break...a chance to regroup, get your emotions back under control, do something you like (read a book, etc.). I know it is hard to go with them to the comfort corner, but if you do it consistently, over time they'll often start going on their own. The other thought with that is that ideally you work toward getting them to the comfort corner before they start to spiral totally out of control. Use it proactively to try to get them to self-regulate/self modulate their emotions...a pretty useful life skill.

[o_mom]

We have been going through it here as well. It's three. The only thing keeping us sane is that we have been through it and the other side was a bit better.

I think for us, it has been a communication issue. This little person who can say some pretty sophisticated things just loses all that skill the second things go south. We spend a lot of time saying "I can't understand when you are screaming like that" and "use your words". It's like a tape loop of The Exorcist though until he gets it out and can calm down. Sometimes 'legitimate' stuff (brother hit, etc.) sometimes not so much (plate is the wrong color, dog licked his foot).

It also is a control thing. They get an idea and when it doesn't happen, for whatever reason, they can't be detered from trying to do it or focus on anything except the loss.

Beth has some great book recommendations!

[LarsMal]

You might not want to listen to me too much, since I don't know if we've done a stellar job with handling it. But we always reiterate that 1) the tantrums will not get what she wants, 2) she can have the tantrum/complaining/whining but has to go into her room or another room so as not to bother others, and 3) stop discussing w/her when she's in that mode, since there's no talking her out of it anyways!!

I also agree w/beth about the snack. DD2 is ALWAYS hungry and will melt down w/o timely food.

DS (just about 3 1/2) is the exact same way right now. Of course DD's 2yo behavior doesn't help, so they feed off each other all day long. I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have DS in school 3 mornings a week. I feel guilty thinking/saying those things, but it is better for him, me, and DD, too.

We deal with DS in a similar way. DH has told DS he has two rules, "no whining and no crying". As soon as DS starts we say, "Are you whining?" He usually stops, changes his tone, and says, "No, I'm just talking." :) If it continues and starts escalating we take him right up to his room, where he has to stay until he is finished. If he comes out and starts again, he goes right back into his room. I think he spent about an hour or so in there this afternoon!

Ever since DS gave up his pacifier he hasn't taken a nap. Things are much worse in the afternoon- I know he's exhausted (especially on school days). I try to remember that when dealing with him, but it can be hard when you're in the middle of it!

I also agree with the snack idea. I just started doing that within the last week and it has helped quite a bit. In the midst of a tantrum last week DH pointed out he might be hungry. We got him a snack and it was like magic! I guess he got my "low blood sugar makes me nasty" gene!!!

I don't have any book recs, but just wanted to let you know you really aren't alone. I don't think the pregnancy hormones help much either! I don't have nearly as much patience as I did a few months ago!

[Twoboos]

Twoboos, we do try to ignore her during the tantrum, but most of the time it just goes on and on. Picking her up and holding her seems to be the fastest and most permanent way of stopping it, something I've discovered only recently. Also, we're having trouble with the time out because traditionally it's always been in her crib, and now she's able to climb out and stand outside her door to continue on. Basically she hates being isolated, but doing it no longer calms her down like it used to.



Ah see, holding my DD during a tantrum results in MUCH thrashing and trying to escape and possibly risking physical harm to me! :) We don't send her to her room as a time out, just more of a place to have her tantrum alone, until she can calm down to discuss whatever the problem is. Brittone had mentioned the comfort corner - which made me remember we did that for a while! Had a big comfy pillow & blanket off in a corner. She used it a few times, and now I can't for the life of me remember why it's not there now!! Probably a fit of cleaning on my part. OOps.

Yah, 3 is tough. DD1 never did this. DD2 definitely started w/the 2s and it just got worse for the 3s. I should check out GCM again myself. Haven't been there in a while.

[maestramommy]

Okay, I just found "Your 3 year old: Friend or Enemy" in our local library network, so I've requested that as well. The title made us chuckle, so if anything maybe we'll find something to laugh about during the next year!

[DrSally]

THis really started with DS too around the time DD was born, understandably. Prior to that, he maybe had a tantrum once and awhile, then it became several times a day. I totally know what you mean about it sucking the fun out of your relationship. I couldn't figure out if it was the new sister or approaching 3 yo. I guess it is both. They really are at an age where they're discovering they have some independence and "say" in things while at the same time they don't really have control of their emotions. I try to look at my job as teaching him how to regulate his emotions by soothing him, helping him calm down, etc. Emotional regulation is the buzz word in psychology these days, as so many adults are lacking it big time. Sometimes, I just have to walk away though b/c it gets me so frustrated. I go back and forth between feeling like I should help him and not abandon him during his fits (he even asks me to hold him) or not reinforce the behavior with attention. Dr. Sears' website has a very indept section on tantrums and basically says that you should help and support a child through frustration tantrums but ignore "manipulative" tantrums. I think it can be hard to distinguish the two. Anyway, Dr. Kazdin is an excellent child psychologist and has this book, which I recommended to my sister and she's been having some success with it.
http://www.amazon.com/Kazdin-Method-Parenting-Defiant-Child/dp/0618773673/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231296736&sr=8-1

[lizajane]

we have intense meltdowns with schuyler. his psychologist says we need to ignore them. BUT we tell him first. here is an example:

you need to brush your teeth. it is not a choice. i will not talk to you while you have a fit. when you are ready to talk to me in your big girl voice and words, i will be ready to listen. i am going to ignore you until you are ready.

and then DO NOT RESPOND. no reminders that you aren't listening or that she needs to calm down. just ignore.

[pinkmomagain]

My dd3 is a just a few days younger than yours. Just some ideas to throw out there....Is she transitioning to no naps? I kinda feel like my dd who rarely naps anymore is usually not tired enough to go to sleep, but tired enough to behave irrationally. Another idea: Could she be under the weather? DD has been fighting a sinus infection since mid Oct. She is on her 3rd round of antibiotics. There is alot to be said for typical 3yo behavior, but I thought it was worth it to throw these 2 ideas out there. HTH

[ThreeofUs]

I am *totally* bookmarking this thread. Just reading it has helped, and the resources sound great.

[Nooknookmom]

I've noticed that w/ Sequoia, anything I say that leads up to *No* or *we can't do that*, is a huge trigger.

I have just tried to change my verbage, as much as it kills me, so we avoid triggers. My older DD pretty much did as she was told and rarely ever had a tantrum. Sequoia otoh is a screaming-tantrumy mess, at 20 mo. She's screaming now b/c I am typing instead of holding her, sigh...I understand how you feel about it being sometimes joyless. It's hard when all they do is fight you.

Teeth brushing here is AWFUL. She squals "I do it!!!!!" and hits me when I tell her that I need to help. We started singing songs to brushing and all sorts of tricks to get her to cooperate.

I must have been off the boards awhile b/c I just noticed your siggie - **Congrats!!!***

[gatorsmom]

Cha Cha is a couple of months older than Dora and we are finally coming out of a phase just like this. Ugh, it is so hard. But I'm happy to say it is getting better. Either that or I'm learning better how to deal with it. I think he was just coming into his own. I've noticed that he's starting to have preferences and opinions about what he wants to wear, what he likes to eat, and favorite music and TV shows. So, I've started relaxing the rules a bit and allowing him to wear things I personally wouldn't pick. And I let hiim say no to certain foods. I'm also allowing him more independence in other ways. It has really made a difference. His tantrums are much more obviously related to times when he's hungry and times when he's tired.

I can't recommend any reading material. Just wanted to reassure you that Dora's not the only one and that it's probably just an indepence phase that will pass. hugs.

[MommyAllison]

We are in the throes of it too, and I am so glad to hear it is normal 3 year old behavior! DD also dropped her nap recently and I know that combined with hunger = meltdown. I just need to remember to stay on top of healthy snacks and not be late for lunch!

[maestramommy]

Okay, I wanted to respond to a couple of pp.

Regarding tooth brushing. To us that in non-negotiable, because Dora has a full mouth of teeth that are tightly packed together, she still doesn't use toothpaste, and our water is non-fluoridated. I really need to ask around for a family dentist, it's on my to-do list. Her last dentist said we needed to floss so we do that as well, and she has been fighting that also. I would LOVE to use Liza's strategy, but I'm afraid most of it would go over her head. She just doesn't have the verbal skills to even come up with a response. I did try the "I'm not talking about this anymore" once in another situation and it was no use. I just think she's not there yet.

Part of it (as I saw last night) is that she wants to brush herself, but she's just not able to do an adequate job, and it just sets her off if we insist on helping, whereas she used to let us help all the time. We've talked about setting up a mirror so she can see what we're doing, maybe we should also brush our teeth so she can see the steps. We were going to introduce toothpaste but Dh talked it up a little too much, perhaps with the emphasis on not swallowing, and I think it freaked her out.

The other thing is Dora still naps. Anywhere from 2-3 hours a day. Yes, I know I'm incredibly lucky, but because of that I'm pretty sure that she's getting enough sleep, since she gets about 12 hours of sleep a night on top of that.

I talked to Dh last night about some of the responses regarding her introverted personality and the strain of preschool. I think that should make a lot of sense because we are both introverted ourselves, Dh particularly, and he knows how draining social situations are. I never noticed when I was younger, but in the last few years social gatherings leave me exhausted, even when I enjoy them very much. I can always feel when the "end" is near for me. For Dora I guess being in a room full of kids she doesn't know and going through this structured routine could be very tiring.

I will try on the breakfast front. In fact its been on my mind ever since Beth (egoldber) mentioned it a while back. The trouble is keeping our fridge stocked with protein she likes to eat but we tend to avoid, like sausages and real bacon. Right now we have veggie bacon, and even I know that's not substantial enough. Besides that all she wants to eat is Cheerios. Not. Enough.

Anyway, I sure do appreciate all the responses I've gotten. It's a huge load off just to know Dora is going through a normal phase, and that my "lousy" mothering hasn't finally caught up with me! :p

[hillview]

The your x year old series is great (per pp) - a little dated but great for behavioral expectations and other stuff -- also short reads.

"Playful Parenting" has helped us.

I find myself using choices (do you want me to brush your teeth now or after a puzzle). Counting to 3 (I am going to count to 3 and after that it is my turn to brush your teeth). Using rewards --bribes? (you can have the new crayons after I brush your teeth). For my DS he can often be hard back from school. Couple of things going on there -- first it was/is a hard transition and when you think about it there is a lot of things he has to do there he doesn't at home (sharing; negotiating; lots of other kids etc). In addition he is very tired after school. I can tell at dinner if he is headed to bed early as his behavior is off. Also have noticed when DH isn't home yet that he acts out.

DS is 3.5 and we have good days and bad days!
/hillary

[wendibird22]

Were aren't there yet, but DD did have some tantruming around 14 months and I read Happiest Toddler on the Block (http://www.amazon.com/Happiest-Toddler-Block-Well-Behaved-Four-Year-Old/dp/0553802569). It covers up to age 4. It has great suggestions on how to talk to your child in a way they can understand (saying that sometimes we try to hard to be clear and explain and it is too much for the child to comprehend). It also has suggestions for gentle discipline and for responding to your child based on his/her specific temperament.

[brittone2]

For toothbrushing here are some things that have helped us (sometimes ;) )

We buy the Firefly toothbrushes from Target. You can push a little spot at the end and the toothbrush will flash. WHen it is done flashing, it is mommy and daddy's turn to brush you. We always let both kids start the brushing and then we finish it for them. You could also get a small timer and tell them when the timer beeps it is mommy and daddy's turn to finish their teeth.

DS used to enjoy when we would tell him we were brushing the excavators off hsi teeth, oh, and a dumptruck on that side, and a bulldozer over here, etc. etc. It didn't always work, but it worked pretty well many nights. DD likes when we brush animals off of her teeth (a cow, a snake, a horse, etc.). It gets her giggling. Again, it doesn't always work, but it helps.

[anamika]

Sounds like you have gotten some great advice. Just wanted to add that it sounds perfectly normal.
At 3, the timer was my friend. I bought one from WS and just used it all the time. When the timer goes, she has to stop coloring, playing, etc and move on to the next thing. It's hard to argue with a timer (at least at that age)!
For toothbrushing, I second Beth's idea. DD is allowed to brush her teeth for x minutes and then it's our turn. Also this was the time I started making up stories for her while brushing - it was like a special toothbrushing activity.
DH also makes it really fun by telling her the bacteria are having a dance party in her teeth (or some other activity) and then the toothbrush causes an earthquake and all the bacteria run away or some other nonsensical stuff like that.
HTH,

[clc053103]

I have a 3 1/2 year old DS and you have described him to a T! I had been warned that 3 gets worse headed to 3 1/2, but then gets better. My neighbor just said to me that "the terrible twos are nothing compared to the life threatening threes!"

My best resources so far are "Your 3 Year Old: Friend or Enemy" and 1-2-3 Magic which you already have reserved. But I am totaqlly going to check out the books others recommended!