At what point is dd's shyness rude?

[JustMe]

I am very interested to hear people's opinions on this. Dd is very shy in simplistic terms, but its more accurate to say that she is slow to warm up. when she is comfortable with someone, she is a completely different person..however, it also takes her a while to warm up even with good friends that we see often.

When we see people out and about, dd usually does not respond to their greetings or any questions they might ask her. I live in a town where the norm is that people are very friendly, and its pretty common for strangers to say hello and at times even ask a non-personal question or 2...Dd does not answer them...the same goes for the friends we see out and about...I never made a big deal out of this, but always gave her the chance to answer and if she didnt I would just answer for her or, in the case of people who don't know her well, sometimes added that she is kind of shy. I have talked with dd about this, and she never minded me saying this.

Well, dd turns 6 next month, and I am just wondering at what point/age would you feel that not responding to, at the very least, a greeting is rude? What, if anything, would you do about it? I have once gently suggested to dd that it might hurt people's feelings if she does not answer them when they say hello to her, but I have very mxed feelings about what, if anything, to do about this.

[KpbS]

How is she in the classroom? Does she speak to the teacher (when spoke to)? Other adults in positions of authority?

Our friends have a child who has had similar behaviors. He is 3 now and seems to be interacting more with close friends (adults) and others. IIRC I read a post awhile ago about selective mutism. I am definitely not saying this would apply in your situation but I remember reading about it and wondering if it did apply to their DC.

[kcandz]

My DC is roughly the same age and has similar behavior. Some techniques that have worked for us are...

Greetings. DC must acknowledge a greeting, we have discussed this is respectful of others. If DC does not want to speak, a wave is OK.

Questions/small talk. I do not answer for DC. We have discussed that it is rude to others to not acknowledge another person addressing DC directly. However, DC never has to answer a question. DC can say "I am shy" or "I am feeling shy" to the person and that is OK. If the person doesn't back away at that time, I will assist DC and say something polite to steer the conversation away. I find that many times, DC will then interject into our subsequent conversation. It is something about being put on the spot that freezes up DC.

Also, I do not like the decriptive label "shy" (or any labels) but DC really does - uses it almost like a shield. I follow DC's lead here though it is not my preference.

As KpbS mentions, you may want to google selective mutism or social anxiety. I'm not saying your or my DC has those things, but some of the behavior modification tips are adaptable.

HTH

[AngelaS]

I taught my children that they always had to acknowledge a greeting from about age 2 on. It would be rude for an adult to not respond to someone who's talking to them and I expected my girls to have the same social grace.

If they wouldn't say hello, they had to at least wave. It was something we'd discuss before leaving the house and act out possible situations. :)

[maestramommy]

I think by 5, an average child should be able to at least say, "hi". Our neighbor has 5yo twins and she is teaching them to look at the person in the eye (her exact words) and say, "Hi Mr./Mrs/Ms. so-and-so".

Dora was also very shy and still is but we are working with her on saying Hi to people when she is greeted. I do think it's all part of teaching your kids simple manners. One of my bf's dd was extremely shy, and had pretty severe separation and stranger anxiety for over 3 years. But by K she had progressed to the point of going up to new kids and asking if they wanted to play. Big celebration at that point!

Now, on the extreme end, one of our friends adopted a girl from China 6-7 years ago. When we visited during Christmas, they told us she had been diagnosed with selective mutism. In all the time I've known them, I've known that their daughter was unusually quiet, esp. with people she didn't know. I had no idea if she was being rude or just abnormally shy, because around her friends she seemed normally social. But I read up on selective mutism, and it fits. They finally got her evaluated because it was getting pretty bad at school.

So I would echo the pp and talk to the school teacher. Find out how she is with him/her, other adults, other kids, etc.

[mamicka]

I guess I'm in the minority here. I was that child that was so shy that I couldn't greet others even at 6. I wasn't mute or rude. I was shy.

When I was little, my parents always talked about how I was being rude, etc. It didn't help, it just made me feel bad about it. DS1 is 5.5 - he isn't as shy as I was, but we definitely don't go the rude route. We practice those situations & we encourage him. If, in those situations, he is too shy to answer, I'll answer for him, leaving the door open for him to talk when he's ready.

I'm not saying your doing this, but don't tell her its rude. Just encourage her & do what you can to prepare her, thus giving her more confidence - that's what she's most likely lacking, not manners.

[o_mom]

I still haven't figured out how to "teach" this to DS1, so I don't think it is something that every child can learn at an early age. We have tried many things, but he won't talk to someone he doesn't know well and even sometimes to people he does know. We have talked about it, done role-playing, etc, but I'm not going to punish him for feeling overwhelmed or scared. Some kids are just naturally more outgoing.

The only thing I would suggest is to not tell people she is "shy" and especially not in front of her. I think that it would only reinforce the idea that she is not meant to talk to people - the self-fulfilling prophesy idea. I just say "I guess he doesn't feel like talking". Even though she doesn't mind, she will still internalize that message. You could also shift to speaking about shyness as a feeling - "She is feeling shy" rather than "She is shy" The former is a temporary state that can be changed where the latter is fixed and may seem permenent to her.

[mamicka]

The only thing I would suggest is to not tell people she is "shy" and especially not in front of her. I think that it would only reinforce the idea that she is not meant to talk to people - the self-fulfilling prophesy idea. I just say "I guess he doesn't feel like talking". Even though she doesn't mind, she will still internalize that message. You could also shift to speaking about shyness as a feeling - "She is feeling shy" rather than "She is shy" The former is a temporary state that can be changed where the latter is fixed and may seem permenent to her.

Both great points. We do this too.

[egoldber]

I guess I'm in the minority here. I was that child that was so shy that I couldn't greet others even at 6. I wasn't mute or rude. I was shy.

When I was little, my parents always talked about how I was being rude, etc. It didn't help, it just made me feel bad about it.

:yeahthat:This was me. I was well into my TEENS before I was able to overcome this and my parents getting irritated with me and my father telling me I was rude did nothing but exacerbate the problem.

Sarah does this sometimes and I do talk with her about how we should try to greet someone when they greet us, and that it is is OK to wave and smile if she can't being herself to say something.

[sste]

Why don't you make a list of all of the behaviors that would be ideal in terms of social interaction - - DD saying hello to more familar people, DD saying hello to your more casual acquaintances, DD answering a question in one or two words from a familar person, in a sentence, etc. You get the idea. Then start with the most modest, comfortable behavior and make that your goal for a few months or however long it takes her to master it and feel comfortable, giving her lots of positive reinforcement, praise, even rewards if you are OK with that. When she has mastered it move on to the next behavior. This way she builds confidence over time and can gradually move out of her security zone . . .

[DrSally]

I know I'm talking about a 3 yo vs. a 6 yo, but if it's not done in an oppositional way, I don't think about it in terms of being rude. With introverted kids, pushing them to engage just causes them to withdraw further, IMO, and can run the risk of making them feel not accepted for who they are. I was an introverted child and DS is also slow to warm up/introverted. It's pretty much an inborn temperment thing, IMO. Encouragement, practice, etc. is great, but, personally, I would never try to make my child talk to (or worse yet, hug someone) when they don't feel comfortable. I'd MUCH rather have some stranger or acquaintance think my child was "rude" than risk making him feel bad about himself. I also don't like the label "shy" as it has negative connotations in this society and we all know how labels affect a child's identity.

I was upset when DS's teacher had to leave for health reasons recently. She understood and accepted that he needed some time to observe quietly before joining in, which he always did. The 2nd day, the new teacher greeted DS immediately by teasing him about how she was going to make him talk to her today--not helpful focus/pressure IMO. Then, when he wanted to observe at first, she literally ordered him to come over and play--nice. What does that accomplish?

As a child, I vividly remember my parents literally pushing me up to the stage at church to sing in front of the congregation, even though I was crying and telling them I didn't want to. I was also yelled at and forced to play the piano, sobbing, for company. One time on vacation, I went up to my room to unpack and settle, and my grandma came up and yelled at me, "you are going to go downstairs and have fun!!!" to the point that I was sobbing uncontrollably.

That's not saying that you don't want to help your child adapt to society. Introversion and social anxiety definitely overlap. If it's actual social anxiety, behavioral exercises and "exposure"/relaxation can definitely help. IMO, though, introverson is a temperment that cannot be changed. A person will adapt and find his/her way. Even though social extraversion is valued in this society, introversion has many hidden positives. Often these people are deep thinkers, extremely loyal friends, some of the best scientists, etc.

Sorry this is so rambling. I know the op just wants her daughter to have good manners, which is a fine goal. These are just my thoughts on the topic in general.

ETA: I love the idea of just waving to someone.

[vludmilla]

I guess I'm in the minority here. I was that child that was so shy that I couldn't greet others even at 6. I wasn't mute or rude. I was shy.

When I was little, my parents always talked about how I was being rude, etc. It didn't help, it just made me feel bad about it. DS1 is 5.5 - he isn't as shy as I was, but we definitely don't go the rude route. We practice those situations & we encourage him. If, in those situations, he is too shy to answer, I'll answer for him, leaving the door open for him to talk when he's ready.

I'm not saying your doing this, but don't tell her its rude. Just encourage her & do what you can to prepare her, thus giving her more confidence - that's what she's most likely lacking, not manners.

I agree. If a child is very shy then saying that their behavior is rude will make them feel guilty about something that is difficult for them to overcome. Teach strategies, practice, and help them build their confidence in talking to others.

[brittone2]

I agree with those who said they wouldn't mention her being shy in front of others. I also think the pressure to make a child say something just makes it worse, honestly. ITA w/ O_mom, Egoldberg, mamicka, drsally, vludmilla, etc. and what they said in their posts.

I think practicing at home is great. Encouraging prior to going out of the house is great. I think trying to make them respond a certain way or making them feel abnormal or rude for being introverted or "shy" isn't going to help.

[pinkmomagain]

IMO I think by 5 or 6 kids need to be acknowledging when others say "hi". I don't think you should be making a child feel bad, but I don't think saying he/she is "shy" works either. A simple "hi" back and shaking head/nodding head in response to questions I think is OK. These are social skills that kids need to be working on, if they have a hard time doing it naturally. Practice, play acting, and prompting right before a situation comes up would help.

I have kids at my busstop who are older than 6 and they do not acknowledge adults talking to them...and the parents do absolutely nothing to prompt them. I don't think they are doing their children a service by not encouraging them to be social on a very basic level.

[KpbS]

The only thing I would suggest is to not tell people she is "shy" and especially not in front of her. I think that it would only reinforce the idea that she is not meant to talk to people - the self-fulfilling prophesy idea.

I definitely agree w/ this. I was tremendously shy as a child (I am so not an extrovert!) and anyone drawing extra "attention" to my shyness was just painful. It does get harder as they get older though. I remember I wasn't comfortable talking to the cashier at the grocery store long after I should have been.

[o_mom]

IMO I think by 5 or 6 kids need to be acknowledging when others say "hi". I don't think you should be making a child feel bad, but I don't think saying he/she is "shy" works either. A simple "hi" back and shaking head/nodding head in response to questions I think is OK. These are social skills that kids need to be working on, if they have a hard time doing it naturally. Practice, play acting, and prompting right before a situation comes up would help.

I have kids at my busstop who are older than 6 and they do not acknowledge adults talking to them...and the parents do absolutely nothing to prompt them. I don't think they are doing their children a service by not encouraging them to be social on a very basic level.

But what would you have them do when all that doesn't make a difference?

Just because the parents aren't prompting them doesn't mean they aren't working on it either.

[pinkmomagain]

Oh well, I'm not sure they are working at this on any level...the two different neighbors whose kids are like this (these kids are in 3rd and 4th grades) -- the parents themselves lack manners and at the very least should be modeling very basic social skills so that their children can see by example. But, yes, of course, to your point I don't know...they could be working at it at home. If so, bravo!

[egoldber]

If a child is not being modeled basic good manners, that is very different from a child who is introverted/anxious.

[DrSally]

If a child is not being modeled basic good manners, that is very different from a child who is introverted/anxious.

:yeahthat:

[brittone2]

If a child is not being modeled basic good manners, that is very different from a child who is introverted/anxious.
Agreeing w/ this as well.

FWIW, I'm an introvert IRL. Totally. I like people, but it is hard for me to force myself to talk to new people in new situations (I do, but it isn't something that comes easily to me, even now.) Fortunately both kids seem to be much more extroverted so far. DS was totally not into new people, new situations and was very clingy for his first 2-3 years of life, but starting around 3 and onward, he became quite outgoing. We laugh because he has "friends" all over town...he talks to anyone and everyone on all errands. He knows every cashier in town by name and chats everyone up. It cracks me up.

[erosenst]

Interesting reading the replies...I agree with a lot of what's being said.

To go back to the OP's question:

however, it also takes her a while to warm up even with good friends that we see often.


Abby sometimes takes a while to warm up, and has never liked people "in her space", which I totally understand. (When she was really little, I would hold her on my far hip when people approached. If they got much nearer, she would often freak...) Having said that, by the time she was....3? early 4? ... I expected at least a basic "hello" back to a greeting, especially if she knew someone. I had a feeling some of it was behavioral (ie just not wanting to do what was expected) rather than shyness.

It was proved out one morning...the owner of our daycare (an 'grandfatherly' man who Abby adores) said good morning to Abby. She was having a great morning...but wouldn't answer him even with prompting. I gave her three chances...but when she still wouldn't, I cut our 'goodbye' routine way down, telling her that if she was too tired to say good morning to him (her excuse) she was too tired to say goodbye. I left her in a screaming heap on the floor (which the teacher was great about)....but in the two years since, she's nicely said good morning to him every time...:rolleyes:

And interestingly, since that occasion, she will almost always return a greeting, at worst after a little prompting...

Emily
Abby 5