Whoa... Octuplet mom already has 6 kids!!!

[Tondi G]

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE50S6P020090129

[strollerqueen]

Yeah, it was all over talk radio today. She is single, and lives with her parents. They are divorced, but both live in the same house so they could help her with the prior six. Reporters said the house was pretty small, too, maybe 3 bedrooms? Don't know how they are going to fit 17 people in there!

[tnrnchick74]

I'm sorry, but I find that ridiculous! I know it hasn't been confirmed but there is NO WAY this woman gave birth to octuplets without fertility treatments. WHY would you WILLINGLY become a single mother to high order multiples!

And shame on the fertility MD for helping this situation - the entire point of fertility treatments it to get pregnant without causing high order multiples!

[kijip]

I'm sorry, but I find that ridiculous! I know it hasn't been confirmed but there is NO WAY this woman gave birth to octuplets without fertility treatments. WHY would you WILLINGLY become a single mother to high order multiples!


:yeahthat:

It all makes me dizzy just thinking about it. Only 6 are breathing on their own and only 5 are able to eat. Intentionally having very high order multiples seems to be a recipe for sad outcomes for the babies.

[tnrnchick74]

:yeahthat:

It all makes me dizzy just thinking about it. Only 6 are breathing on their own and only 5 are able to eat. Intentionally having very high order multiples seems to be a recipe for sad outcomes for the babies.

In reality, it sounds like the babies are doing really well. Most babies of that gestation are not eating, and are on ventilators - I read reports today that all of babies are off the vents and just needing nasal cannulas to provide oxygen and air flow to their lungs. The babies seem to be doing great, but I worry about the quality of their life after they leave the hospital. Preemie need a lot of care for quite awhile, and this Momma doesn't appear to have the means to do this. I know I wouldn't as a single mommy - and I only have 1!

[Ceepa]

I'm prayng for this family and wish them peace and health.

[Melaine]

:yeahthat:

It all makes me dizzy just thinking about it. Only 6 are breathing on their own and only 5 are able to eat. Intentionally having very high order multiples seems to be a recipe for sad outcomes for the babies.

I just want to *gently* say about this: I have twins and they weren't able to eat on their own right away (mine were naturally conceived also!). Many singleton babies can't breathe or eat on their own right away; there are many other factors to consider. Yes, high order multiples are at risk from the get-go. However, I don't really feel it is fair to call this situation sad. These children are alive and safe (at this moment) and have a great life ahead of them as far as we know. I agree the decision to use fertility treatments is a serious one that should be given lots of thought. But, I think that this situation shows that multiples can be safely delivered without "selective reduction". I think this should give hope to any parents who are not willing to choose abortion for the children they have hoped and prayed for for so long and they should have doctors who are willing to see that decision through.

[egoldber]

Only 6 are breathing on their own and only 5 are able to eat.

I have not read other news stories, only seen headlines. But this is not uncommon with any baby born before 34-35 weeks. Amy, at 34 weeks and a singleton, spent 2 days on oxygen support and was NPO for 4 days.

I'm not saying this is a *good* thing, just that it is standard for almost any baby born early.

[kijip]

The babies seem to be doing great, but I worry about the quality of their life after they leave the hospital.

It sounds like they are getting great, wonderful medical care and doing great for the situation.

[kijip]

I just want to *gently* say about this: I have twins and they weren't able to eat on their own right away (mine were naturally conceived also!). Many singleton babies can't breathe or eat on their own right away; there are many other factors to consider. Yes, high order multiples are at risk from the get-go. However, I don't really feel it is fair to call this situation sad. These children are alive and safe (at this moment) and have a great life ahead of them as far as we know. I agree the decision to use fertility treatments is a serious one that should be given lots of thought. But, I think that this situation shows that multiples can be safely delivered without "selective reduction". I think this should give hope to any parents who are not willing to choose abortion for the children they have hoped and prayed for for so long and they should have doctors who are willing to see that decision through.

I never said she should have opted for abortion or that it was sad they were born. I just question why such treatments as to cause an 8 baby pregnancy are even available. The only other set of American octuplets resulted in one infant death. That is a potential sad outcome, one that did not need to be risked in the first place.

[maestramommy]

Just read an article with saying only one is still breathing from a tube. The others will be receiving breastmilk today. The grandfather talked to the press and said they will be heading out to another (undisclosed) house after the babies are released. A BIG house. So it appears that this family does have some means to take care of the babies. And crazy as it seems to us, they are thrilled. Different strokes and all that.

[o_mom]

And shame on the fertility MD for helping this situation - the entire point of fertility treatments it to get pregnant without causing high order multiples!

It may be that there is no MD involved. Unused fertility drugs are commonly resold by patients trying to afford treatments. There is also the possibility that she was told there were many eggs that cycle and to avoid intercourse and did not. Not much the MD can do to prevent that. Thirdly, she lives in LA - about a three hour drive to TJ from there and you can buy many drugs OTC there that are Rx only in the US.

[kijip]

It may be that there is no MD involved. Unused fertility drugs are commonly resold by patients trying to afford treatments. There is also the possibility that she was told there were many eggs that cycle and to avoid intercourse and did not. Not much the MD can do to prevent that. Thirdly, she lives in LA - about a three hour drive to TJ from there and you can buy many drugs OTC there that are Rx only in the US.

That is what I was thinking on second thought as well. It seems most doctors, because of the risks involved, shy away from intentionally causing large multiples pregnancies.

[egoldber]

It seems most doctors, because of the risks involved, shy away from intentionally causing large multiples pregnancies.

Deliberately creating a higher order multiples pregnancy is definitely against fertility treatment ethics. They do happen occasionally of course, but the goal (of an ethical doctor) is always a healthy, singleton pregnancy.

[alexsmommy]

It may be that there is no MD involved. Unused fertility drugs are commonly resold by patients trying to afford treatments. There is also the possibility that she was told there were many eggs that cycle and to avoid intercourse and did not. Not much the MD can do to prevent that. Thirdly, she lives in LA - about a three hour drive to TJ from there and you can buy many drugs OTC there that are Rx only in the US.

Yeah, it did make me wonder. IUI is somewhat expensive when done with a reproductive endochronologist. With six kids and living in a small three bedroom house, it did make me wonder if a RE was in charge of this. I don't want to make assumption or speak disparagingly - clearly I don't know this woman. Yet you can get the drugs fairly easily and cheaply through secondhand sources and it's hard enough to get a low number of follicles with a RE monitoring closely and adjusting accordingly. If she were doing this on her own, this could very well be the result. I hope this wasn't the case. It will be interesting to see what comes out of this story.
All things considered, for that high order number and gestation, they actually sound like they are doing really well. There's a long road ahead though.

[Momof3Labs]

This article says that there was an RE involved (she had embryos transferred, which is either IVF or a frozen embryo transfer - FET):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090130/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

No reputable fertility doc would transfer 8 embryos, period. It's far beyond the recommendations of the profession (probably a max of two, given her young age), and the dr would have the right to refuse to do so, even if that's what the mother wanted.

That article also says that they were 9 weeks early - I'm pretty impressed if she carried an octuplet pregnancy to 31 weeks!!

[heatherlynn]

I'm sorry but if there was an MD involved, well, that is just so wrong. Even if you are against selective reduction, there is no need to implant 8 embryos. I had IVF and we were against selective reduction, so we only implanted 2.

[brittone2]

Yeah, implanting 8 embies is just beyond unethical.

With IUI/injectables (vs. IVF) higher order multiples are often more common because it is more difficult to control the number of mature follicles. One advantage of IVF is that you *can* control the number that go back into the uterus.

Any RE implanting 8 embies in that scenario needs to be disciplined by a medical board, IMO. (unless there is more to the story that we aren't hearing, but I can't imagine any acceptable scenario for what I've heard so far).

[tnrnchick74]

I never said she should have opted for abortion or that it was sad they were born. I just question why such treatments as to cause an 8 baby pregnancy are even available. The only other set of American octuplets resulted in one infant death. That is a potential sad outcome, one that did not need to be risked in the first place.

I totally agree.

[tnrnchick74]

I'm sorry but if there was an MD involved, well, that is just so wrong. Even if you are against selective reduction, there is no need to implant 8 embryos. I had IVF and we were against selective reduction, so we only implanted 2.

I agree this is completely unethical. this truly concerns me. I had IVF also, and only allowed 3 embryeos to be transferred at any one time.

[brittone2]

I don't recall, but was the other octuplet situation the result of IUI/injectables or IVF? I mean, with injectables, quite honestly it is a roll of the dice for many women. I hyper-responded even on a very low dose (I was also in my mid 20s, with PCOS, both of which can contribute to creating too many follicles even on a low dose). We cancelled the very first cycle I responded to because I had 40 follicles. Our REs immediately started talking about IVF, not as a "last resort" (which is what so many people consider IVF to be) but as a way to control the number of embryos better (would have likely only implanted 1, or 2 max).

Fortunately we were able to go w/ an even lower dose and tweak my meds and end up with a singleton. But...with injectables, even with monitoring, it can be a bit difficult to control the potential outcome. But 8 embies via IVF...well, there's really just no reason that should have happened.

[DietCokeLover]

I just want to *gently* say about this: I have twins and they weren't able to eat on their own right away (mine were naturally conceived also!). Many singleton babies can't breathe or eat on their own right away; there are many other factors to consider. Yes, high order multiples are at risk from the get-go. However, I don't really feel it is fair to call this situation sad. These children are alive and safe (at this moment) and have a great life ahead of them as far as we know. I agree the decision to use fertility treatments is a serious one that should be given lots of thought. But, I think that this situation shows that multiples can be safely delivered without "selective reduction". I think this should give hope to any parents who are not willing to choose abortion for the children they have hoped and prayed for for so long and they should have doctors who are willing to see that decision through.

Well said.

[alexsmommy]

This article says that there was an RE involved (she had embryos implanted, which is either IVF or a frozen embryo transfer - FET):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090130/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

No reputable fertility doc would implant 8 embryos, period. It's far beyond the recommendations of the profession (probably a max of two, given her young age), and the dr would have the right to refuse to do so, even if that's what the mother wanted.

That article also says that they were 9 weeks early - I'm pretty impressed if she carried an octuplet pregnancy to 31 weeks!!

That is just so wrong. I just assumed IUI becasue absolutely no ethical RE would implant 8 from IVF. Wow.

[brittone2]

That is just so wrong. I just assumed IUI becasue absolutely no ethical RE would implant 8 from IVF. Wow.

Right. I agree completely. With IUI/injectables there are obviouslyrisks, and REs and patients do their best to manage them (and usually do okay considering how common IUI/injectables are).

With IVF, there's really no excuse to *intentionally* implant 8, at least based on what has been described.

With IUI/inj. it is a possibility, but wouldn't be the intent and everyone would do their best to minimize the risk of higher order multiples. But intentionally implanting 8 embies is totally different, IMO.

[bethie_73]

just have to say I have very strong views on medical intervention (yes it was used to conceive my DS so I am so FOR it)

But I can not watch Jon and Kate plus 8 because I believe it sends the wrong message to the world about those of us who have needed assistance. My RE was concerned about twins or triplets let alone 6 or 8. I am not looking to get into an argument here, but I think it is truly irresponsible however it was accomplished.

[brittone2]

just have to say I have very strong views on medical intervention (yes it was used to conceive my DS so I am so FOR it)

But I can not watch Jon and Kate plus 8 because I believe it sends the wrong message to the world about those of us who have needed assistance. My RE was concerned about twins or triplets let alone 6 or 8. I am not looking to get into an argument here, but I think it is truly irresponsible however it was accomplished.

It is hard to know this particular octuplet mom's intentions, but I've been wondering if the recent TLC shows (not just Jon and Kate + 8) played a part as well. Totally speculation on my part, admittedly.

[egoldber]

But I can not watch Jon and Kate plus 8 because I believe it sends the wrong message to the world about those of us who have needed assistance. My RE was concerned about twins or triplets let alone 6 or 8. I am not looking to get into an argument here, but I think it is truly irresponsible however it was accomplished.

What they have said is that Kate hyper responded to an IUI cycle. She has PCOS and this is a higher risk with PCOS. She did not do IVF.

[brittone2]

What they have said is that Kate hyper responded to an IUI cycle. She has PCOS and this is a higher risk with PCOS. She did not do IVF.

That is true, and also true w/ many high order multiples.

The other interesting thing to consider is whether more states should mandate IVF coverage or not. It is expensive, but in most cases there is better control over the number of embryos, meaning it is less likely they'll have to pay for the financial aspect of a very medically complex pregnancy as well as the medical needs of higher order multiples.

I had the option to have our IVF paid, which is why we would have quickly moved in that direction vs. IUI/injectables if we kept having a problem w/ me over responding to meds. Not all families have that option, and that makes IUI/injectables one of their only other financially possible options. Complicated ethics.

Eta: I do think shows like J & K + 8 may glamorize things a bit for some people. When they first had their sextuplets I remember my MIL flipping out about how they were so irresponsible to undergo such a treatment (the same treatment many women undergo in our country everyday, she just happened to be in the not so desirable statistic for high order multiples.). MIL didn't seem to equate that the very same procedure is what gave her her grandson, yet I can guarantee she would have been frustrated w/ us if we didn't exhaust all of our options to have him. I was in tears because it was a totally insensitive discussion and she just didn't get it.

But the whole intentionally implanting 8...what was the rationale there?

[heatherlynn]

What they have said is that Kate hyper responded to an IUI cycle. She has PCOS and this is a higher risk with PCOS. She did not do IVF.

I have PCOS and had my IUI cancelled because of too many follicles. Not trying to be argumentative, but I really feel that this is just irresponsible.

[gatorsmom]

I'm sorry, but I find that ridiculous! I know it hasn't been confirmed but there is NO WAY this woman gave birth to octuplets without fertility treatments. WHY would you WILLINGLY become a single mother to high order multiples!

And shame on the fertility MD for helping this situation - the entire point of fertility treatments it to get pregnant without causing high order multiples!

I totally agree with this. Why wouldn't the MD do a better job of explaining the risks of fertility drugs to her body and the baby (ies)? I'm so glad they are doing well and i'm really hoping they continue down the successful path they are on but I sincerely hope that she knows how to build her "village" because she's going to need all the help she can get.

[egoldber]

Not trying to be argumentative, but I really feel that this is just irresponsible.

And also not trying to argue, because really I am NO fan of Kate's LOL, but part of the issue is there can be follicles they do not see or more follicles that mature than they saw on the US. So while it is *highly unlikely* that a HOM pregnancy will happen with a carefully monitored IUI cycle, it can happen.

But I also worry that shows like J&K+8 glamorize HOM families and make it seem attractive to people.

[brittone2]

I have PCOS and had my IUI cancelled because of too many follicles. Not trying to be argumentative, but I really feel that this is just irresponsible.

I agree to a point, and went through a similar (frustrating!) cancelled cycle for the same reason. But anytime you are dealing w/ injectables and IUI, there is still a risk of higher order multiples. It can be minimized with careful and conservative management, but it is still there. I don't know what exactly happened in Kate's case in terms of why their cycle proceeded vs. being cancelled.
eta: fwiw, I'm not a huge fan of Kate in general and the decisions they've made in recent years, but I just think it is hard to know what happened behind the scenes. I see more room for error in her case for sure than the situation w/ intentionally implanting 8 embryos though.

crossposted with egoldberg! Sorry to be redundant.

[heatherlynn]

Good points. Again, I wasn't trying to be a pest! :)

etc: spelling

[TonFirst]

"I have PCOS and had my IUI cancelled because of too many follicles. Not trying to be argumentative, but I really feel that this is just irresponsible"

ITA. This happened to a good friend of mine and her RE was like, "Uh, unless you really want to be on the cover of People Magazine, this cycle is cancelled."

[brittone2]

Good points. Again, I wasn't trying to be a pest! :)

etc: spelling

No problem-you weren't a pest. I just think it makes for interesting discussion. Most people I know IRL have no idea how IUI/injectables differ from IVF so this topic has come up more than once in my circle of friends/family.

The whole cancelled IUI was so frustrating at the time. Ahhh...the challenges of PCOS. Blech.

:hug:

[heatherlynn]

No problem-you weren't a pest. I just think it makes for interesting discussion. Most people I know IRL have no idea how IUI/injectables differ from IVF so this topic has come up more than once in my circle of friends/family.

The whole cancelled IUI was so frustrating at the time. Ahhh...the challenges of PCOS. Blech.

:hug:

PCOS - ugh. I've been thinking that I really need to try to get a handle on mine. Any sites you can recommend? I know about the usual ones, but I find so much of the information pretty basic.

[Twin Mom]

I saw on the web that it was IVF. They implanted 8 and she refused to reduce. I don't understand why she would have implanted 8 given the risks to her and the babies and the fact that she already has 6 kids. Her husband is also supposedly going to go back to Iraq where he works as a contractor to help support the family. I hope she has a lot of help from her family b/c she is going to need it. Her other kids are 7, 6, 5, 3 and 2-year-old twins. Honestly, I thought the beginning with twins was hard and they were my only kids. I couldn't imagine 6 kids + 8 babies.

[maylips]

I saw on the web that it was IVF. They implanted 8 and she refused to reduce. I don't understand why she would have implanted 8 given the risks to her and the babies and the fact that she already has 6 kids. Her husband is also supposedly going to go back to Iraq where he works as a contractor to help support the family. I hope she has a lot of help from her family b/c she is going to need it. Her other kids are 7, 6, 5, 3 and 2-year-old twins. Honestly, I thought the beginning with twins was hard and they were my only kids. I couldn't imagine 6 kids + 8 babies.

I don't think that's her husband - I think that's her DAD going back to Iraq. I'm not sure there is a man in the picture.

I am not familiar with fertility issues so I can't (and won't) comment on that. What I have trouble with are the "donations" and things given to people in these situations. For me, it's one thing to "uh oh, we're pregnant with multiples" and another to knowingly attempt to have multiples (which seems to be the case in this situation) and then ask for handouts because the responsibilities are too tough to bear. There are all kinds of low income families that desperately need free diapers, clothes, bottles, etc.

[brittone2]

PCOS - ugh. I've been thinking that I really need to try to get a handle on mine. Any sites you can recommend? I know about the usual ones, but I find so much of the information pretty basic.

Hmmm...do you know about the Soulcysters site?
I basically take 2000 mg of XR metformin a day, and then eat lowish carb to manage the long term effects (I don't have a weight issue but believe LC is the best way to try to fight off the insulin-related fun that can come w/ PCOS).

Dr. Eades blog has some good info on low carb in general (research, etc.)
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/

I'm changing some supplements based on Eades' advice. He has a new book out. Anyway, adding coQ10 and Alpha Lipoic Acid to go w/ the metformin. And magnesium.

I like the recipes and inspiration for cooking/baking at :
http://healthyindulgences.blogspot.com/
http://www.genaw.com/lowcarb/index.html
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/

[Laurel]

I am not familiar with fertility issues so I can't (and won't) comment on that. What I have trouble with are the "donations" and things given to people in these situations. For me, it's one thing to "uh oh, we're pregnant with multiples" and another to knowingly attempt to have multiples (which seems to be the case in this situation) and then ask for handouts because the responsibilities are too tough to bear. There are all kinds of low income families that desperately need free diapers, clothes, bottles, etc.

Yeah, this is why I could never get on the Kate Gosselin love train. On the other hand, these babies are here now and didn't ask to be one of 8! They deserve the same basic things any baby needs.

[Momof3Labs]

I have PCOS and had my IUI cancelled because of too many follicles. Not trying to be argumentative, but I really feel that this is just irresponsible.

I don't have PCOS but still had an IUI cycle cancelled due to hyperstimulation! And I think that I only had a half dozen or so follicles, but the RE was much more comfortable with cancelling and trying again than rolling the dice with that cycle. (We agreed with him.) It's a risk for anyone who uses fertility meds + IUI to try to get pregnant, though a particularly high risk for someone with PCOS.

[ha98ed14]

Not sure where to post this in the spaghetti of replies, so I am starting a new branch. I was really curious about this because I live here (LA/OC, Whittier is right on the border and that is where this family lives) and I have Kaiser as my HMO. I read all the on line news reports and saw it on the news. What I can conclude is this:

1) This woman did not have IVF. Kaiser is an HMO and they contract with mainly blue and pink collar businesses and serve a working class, moderate income population. They also take on their "fair share" of Medic Aid (called MediCal in CA) clients. Kaiser does not do high-risk fertility treatments because it goes against their goals to keep costs down through preventative care. Why would they do something that would potentially cause them to have to pay for 8 babies to be in the NICU? Having used Kaiser for my own fertility, maternity care and delivery, I know they do not offer these types of services, but I know that they are obligated to treat you if you show up pregnant and are a Kaiser member.

I conclude that she "got pregnant" using drugs that stimulate ovulation and some well-timed sex and then presented herself to Kaiser already pregnant. This is also in line with what was reported on MSNBC that she received fertility treatment elsewhere, except I believe she was acting as her own doctor and treating herself.

2) I do not believe the report that the family "has a huge house" somewhere else. This was a quote from the grandfather in an MSNBC article. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28927339/ Whittier is a working class town. There is some wealth as there is anywhere, but for the most part this is a largely working class town with a significant low income population. Based on the photographs of the house where the family supposedly lives, I just don't buy the line that this family has a huge house somewhere else. Then why aren't they living in it now?

Anyway, given all that, I think that the news media needs to stop asking, "How could the doctor implant 8 embryos?" because no ethical doctor or medical practice would, and Kaiser follows those ethical standards. I think the media ought to be asking, "Why would a woman make the choice to conceive in such a high-risk way when she already has 6 other children to care for?" Her first 6 needed her to be well and healthy before these 8 ever existed. That is a much better question to be debated in my opinion.

[maestramommy]

Just saw this one. Talks about reproduction from an evolutionary standpoints. I just thought it might be interesting to add to this discussion.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090130/sc_livescience/8isenoughthelimitstohumanreproduction

[kdeunc]

[QUOTE I conclude that she "got pregnant" using drugs that stimulate ovulation and some well-timed sex and then presented herself to Kaiser already pregnant. This is also in line with what was reported on MSNBC that she received fertility treatment elsewhere, except I believe she was acting as her own doctor and treating herself. .[/QUOTE]

I would say that that sounds like a reasonable conclusion. Someone on this board a while back said they had heard about someone getting Clomid from Mexico to "hopefully" have twins. She may very well have been treating herself.

I am just amazed that with 6 kids under 7 she had the time/energy to have any sex, much less "well-timed"! With 3 under 6 all I want is a nap! :)

[MamaMolly]

1) This woman did not have IVF.

Not to argue either but the article I read clearly stated that the mom had IVF. I didn't read anything about it being at the Kaiser facility. Kaiser is where she delivered. I think we all agree that a reputable medical facility would probably not implant 8 embryos. I haven't read where she received her infertility treatment, but I sure wouldn't want to be a patient there!

We've done IVF. When we did it we transferred no more embryos than what our doctor said was safe and we thought we could handle if all survived. And believe me it wasn't NEAR 8!!! We were very, very conservative, but we were realistic and knew what we could handle. The research I did showed that with each additional baby, the risks for problems grew exponentially. All I dared to hope for was ONE healthy baby.

[Staraglimmer]

I know that this might sound cynical, but she could just be going for her own TLC show. I'm not saying this is what she did. I don't know her. But really, after watching Kate complain about her FREE giant house being "dirty," I am beginning that some people might be getting the idea that huge families and higher level multiples is a free ticket to fame and free stuff.

I am not trying to be mean or judge any specific family, I just think that Jon and Kate plus 8 is sending the wrong message these days. Kate's sense of entitlement is starting to make me sick.

[NancyJ_redo]

This woman did not have IVF. Kaiser is an HMO and they contract with mainly blue and pink collar businesses and serve a working class, moderate income population. They also take on their "fair share" of Medic Aid (called MediCal in CA) clients. Kaiser does not do high-risk fertility treatments because it goes against their goals to keep costs down through preventative care. Why would they do something that would potentially cause them to have to pay for 8 babies to be in the NICU? Having used Kaiser for my own fertility, maternity care and delivery, I know they do not offer these types of services, but I know that they are obligated to treat you if you show up pregnant and are a Kaiser member.

Kaiser in Northern Cal actually does do IVF, but you're correct in saying that Kaiser So Cal does not. Kaiser Bellflower, where this woman delivered, does offer fertility treatments but not injectables...just Clomid, etc. And oddly enough, it's not really overseen by a Dr, rather a nurse practictioner manages it all. When hearing the octuplets story I initially thought it would come out that the woman became pregnant via the nurse-managed fertility treatments at Kaiser Bellflower, but the media has since reported she did IVF. And btw, I have nothing against nurses at all, but given the risks associated with fertility meds and multiple pregnancies, in my view a highly skilled RE should be directly overseeing all fertility patients.

[nov04]

I really hope they're all okay in the long-term. We didn't know about dd1's stroke until she was 6m and found out by accident. And i hope they have lots of help (after the media frenzy ends) and the kids all have a good chance at a great life.

[hellokitty1]

1) This woman did not have IVF. Kaiser is an HMO and they contract with mainly blue and pink collar businesses and serve a working class, moderate income population. They also take on their "fair share" of Medic Aid (called MediCal in CA) clients. Kaiser does not do high-risk fertility treatments because it goes against their goals to keep costs down through preventative care. Why would they do something that would potentially cause them to have to pay for 8 babies to be in the NICU? Having used Kaiser for my own fertility, maternity care and delivery, I know they do not offer these types of services, but I know that they are obligated to treat you if you show up pregnant and are a Kaiser member.

Just what I heard this AM...the Early Show said that the LA Time reports that this was IVF.

I do have the same sense as the OP that this lady might be going after the JK8 success. It's always been a comical thing that if you're going ot have multiples, have a a lot so you can get som free stuff.
JMO. The Early Show did have KAte & 8 on this morning to discuss. It was actually a very stupid interview and the host asked MAddy and Cara if they thought her mom was great and Maddy said she liked her Dad better. And she asked her if she liked having all those siblings and Maddy said, "no, they were annoying." That was funny!

[ha98ed14]

Kaiser in Northern Cal actually does do IVF, but you're correct in saying that Kaiser So Cal does not. Kaiser Bellflower, where this woman delivered, does offer fertility treatments but not injectables...just Clomid, etc.

All my experience with Kaiser is in SoCal; I did not know that they did IVF in North CA. But it is unlikely that this woman got a referral to Northern CA Kaiser to get treatment, so care to postulate on where this was done? I just cannot believe Kaiser would do something like this.

It must be a interesting week in PR Office at Kaiser SoCal. They are in the news because of these Octuplets delievered at Bellflower, but they were also in the news earlier because the man who shot himself and his family in L.A. worked at Kaiser Sunset, which is the biggest hospital Kaiser has in SoCal.

[hellokitty1]

All my experience with Kaiser is in SoCal; I did not know that they did IVF in North CA. But it is unlikely that this woman got a referral to Northern CA Kaiser to get treatment, so care to postulate on where this was done? I just cannot believe Kaiser would do something like this.


I could be way off base but I'm surprised that there is a debate on whether some medical carrier offers IVF or not. It's not unusual for many medical carriers to not offer IVF treatment and therefore the patient pays out-of-pocket. It was that way with me when I initially started fertility treatments/ My insurance at the time did not cover it so I piad out of pocket. Then I swithced plans for he following year to one that would cover it.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I wasn't quite following why there was so much analysis on whether Kaiser covered fertility or not. You can still get treatment without coverage.

[ha98ed14]

Not to argue either but the article I read clearly stated that the mom had IVF. I didn't read anything about it being at the Kaiser facility. Kaiser is where she delivered. I think we all agree that a reputable medical facility would probably not implant 8 embryos. I haven't read where she received her infertility treatment, but I sure wouldn't want to be a patient there!


Obviously, I could be wrong. Maybe she did have IVF. But I have a hard time believing that she had it done at a reputable fertility clinic in the SoCal. First because it is expensive and given all the info, I am concluding that this family does not have the money for this kind of treatment from a reputable facility. And while Kaiser as an HMO does make medical care affordable to many people here, they do not offer IVF. So it would not have been covered by her health plan. And IVF is not covered by MediCal. But maybe she has secondary insurance; who knows?

So *IF* she did have IVF, the $64,000 question is WHO would do this? Personally, I still think it was fertility drugs, well-timed sex (or IUI), and that they are lying to the media about having IVF with the idea that IVF somehow legitmates this because it was done under a doctors care.

[brittone2]

Just what I heard this AM...the Early Show said that the LA Time reports that this was IVF.

I do have the same sense as the OP that this lady might be going after the JK8 success. It's always been a comical thing that if you're going ot have multiples, have a a lot so you can get som free stuff.
JMO. The Early Show did have KAte & 8 on this morning to discuss. It was actually a very stupid interview and the host asked MAddy and Cara if they thought her mom was great and Maddy said she liked her Dad better. And she asked her if she liked having all those siblings and Maddy said, "no, they were annoying." That was funny!

Saw a bit of that interview this morning while the kids were still sleeping. It was pretty funny ;) Kate probably blew her top as soon as they were off air. I actually liked that Maddy spoke up and didn't play to a script. I doubt Kate was happy about that though ;)

[egoldber]

while Kaiser as an HMO does make medical care affordable to many people here, they do not offer IVF. So it would not have been covered by her health plan.

This very much depends on your plan. In my area, some Kaiser plans do offer fertility coverage. If you need IVF, they do not do it themselves, they refer you out to a specialist, a reputable fertility clinic. I know more than one person who has Kaiser here who has done that.

And a "Kaiser plan" will look different depending on who the employer is and what coverage they have negotiated into their benefits package, just like different BCBS plans offer different coverage.

[ha98ed14]

I could be way off base but I'm surprised that there is a debate on whether some medical carrier offers IVF or not. It's not unusual for many medical carriers to not offer IVF treatment and therefore the patient pays out-of-pocket. It was that way with me when I initially started fertility treatments/ My insurance at the time did not cover it so I piad out of pocket. Then I swithced plans for he following year to one that would cover it.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I wasn't quite following why there was so much analysis on whether Kaiser covered fertility or not. You can still get treatment without coverage.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to debate anyone. I raised the issue of whether or not Kaiser would have done IVF with 8 implanted embryos because much of the coverage on the morning news was asking the question, "What kind of doctor would do this?" And "Is higher-order muliples an ethical goal for IVF?" And every guest MD said, "No reputable doc or fertility clinic would emplant 8 embryos." So that is why I raised the issue: Because my experiemce with Kaiser has been that they are ethical. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you if I did.

[egoldber]

So *IF* she did have IVF, the $64,000 question is WHO would do this?

My personal suspicion would be an out of country fertility clinic.

[ha98ed14]

My personal suspicion would be an out of country fertility clinic.

Agreed. Which raises a whole lot of other ethical issues IMO, but that is another debate for another day.

[hellokitty1]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to debate anyone. I raised the issue of whether or not Kaiser would have done IVF with 8 implanted embryos because much of the coverage on the morning news was asking the question, "What kind of doctor would do this?" And "Is higher-order muliples an ethical goal for IVF?" And every guest MD said, "No reputable doc or fertility clinic would emplant 8 embryos." So that is why I raised the issue: Because my experiemce with Kaiser has been that they are ethical. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you if I did.

No, no, my bad. I didn't mean to use "debate" in that sense here. I just meant that I was surprised that her healthcare coverage was being used to determine whether she had IVF or not because in my own personal experience, my previous coverage didn't cover it but I still had it done.

Really, no offense taken. And my apologies for maybe not getting my message accross correctly.

No

[ILoveLucy]

I do not believe the report that the family "has a huge house" somewhere else. This was a quote from the grandfather in an MSNBC article. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28927339/ Whittier is a working class town. There is some wealth as there is anywhere, but for the most part this is a largely working class town with a significant low income population. Based on the photographs of the house where the family supposedly lives, I just don't buy the line that this family has a huge house somewhere else. Then why aren't they living in it now?


ITA. It doesn't make sense. I'll be very shocked if it turns out they own a huge house and/or that they have the kind of money it would take to support all of these children without help from taxpayers.

[lisams]

I just read that they filed for bankruptcy about a year and a half ago. Her mother says it was IVF, but I'm just not buying it. I just can't believe a dr. would implant that many fertilized eggs.

I cannot imagine what life is going to be like for them. The medical aspect of caring for 8 premature babies, the cost of just diapers and clothing, how they are going to transport the whole family, how are they going to handle feedings through the night and so on.

I wish them tons of luck and pray that all of the children are getting the proper care and attention they need.

[hellokitty1]

My personal suspicion would be an out of country fertility clinic.

So we don't think the U.S. has any unethical medical practitioners? I'm certain we do. If I can analogize it to the tainted milk issue in China, we now have something similar in the U.S. with peanuts. So maybe we should not be so naive in thinking bad things only happen in other countries.

On a side note, I have this perspective because in the middle of my fertility treatments at a reputable university-affiliated facility, I was concerned that my ER was not taking my issue seriously enough, I made a visit to another private practice thinking the grass would be greener on the other side, only to walk out on the doctor at the second appt. (Hint: this place in NC is known by a 5 letter acronym and has non-stop commericals about the joy they can bring to your life). Anyway, I got bad vibes at this place, which I later learned others did too so I don't necessarily find it odd that I felt like something fishy as going on.

[egoldber]

So we don't think the U.S. has any unethical medical practitioners?

Oh, never fear, I believe there are plenty!

However, I think that any US facility could reasonably anticipate the publicity surrounding such a birth and the hue and cry that would come out if it were discovered they did indeed implant 8 embryos.

[MartiesMom2B]

It is hard to know this particular octuplet mom's intentions, but I've been wondering if the recent TLC shows (not just Jon and Kate + 8) played a part as well. Totally speculation on my part, admittedly.

I can't help but wonder about this too.

[hellokitty1]

Oh, never fear, I believe there are plenty!

However, I think that any US facility could reasonably anticipate the publicity surrounding such a birth and the hue and cry that would come out if it were discovered they did indeed implant 8 embryos.


So do you think that with the privacy laws that exist, we could possibly never know for sure what the exact treatment was unless the mother actualy disclosed it and then we'd just have to take their word for it? I'm thinking the doctor cannot confirm anything without patient permission.

Not like this is any of our business. lol.

[MartiesMom2B]

So we don't think the U.S. has any unethical medical practitioners? I'm certain we do. If I can analogize it to the tainted milk issue in China, we now have something similar in the U.S. with peanuts. So maybe we should not be so naive in thinking bad things only happen in other countries.

On a side note, I have this perspective because in the middle of my fertility treatments at a reputable university-affiliated facility, I was concerned that my ER was not taking my issue seriously enough, I made a visit to another private practice thinking the grass would be greener on the other side, only to walk out on the doctor at the second appt. (Hint: this place in NC is known by a 5 letter acronym and has non-stop commericals about the joy they can bring to your life). Anyway, I got bad vibes at this place, which I later learned others did too so I don't necessarily find it odd that I felt like something fishy as going on.

If it's the place that I'm thinking of, then I know many women who left that practice b/c of they way that they were treated. Congrats on #2 Vivian.

[Snow mom]

I keep wondering who in their right mind would try any type of fertility treatment with six kids already. I know lots of couples struggle with infertility and I can understand if you have 0 and want 1 or have 1 and want 2 but you have 6 and want 7??? The claim of "we have a big house and you aren't going to find us there." sounded like something a 4 or 5 year old would say. Total daydreaming. First of all the hospital didn't release the womans name and it took how long to find the family. Second why would they be living in a small house with six kids if they had some huge mansion somewhere.

ITA that the media glamorizes HOM births. We have two sets of quints that show up on the news regularly here in Austin (one set born within the last month.) There was another HOM birth around the time the first set of quints was born here. I think ultimately all but one of the babies died. This didn't get as much media attention though because it's so sad and people would rather see pictures of five little babies that are doing well than hear about the other outcomes that are not infrequent.

[elektra]

I keep wondering who in their right mind would try any type of fertility treatment with six kids already. I know lots of couples struggle with infertility and I can understand if you have 0 and want 1 or have 1 and want 2 but you have 6 and want 7??? T
:yeahthat:
I am SO wondering what her whole thought process was, how she went about doing this, her reason, the father, etc.
"The whole story" if you will. I mean what was she thinking exactly?

[Nooknookmom]

:yeahthat:
I am SO wondering what her whole thought process was, how she went about doing this, her reason, the father, etc.
"The whole story" if you will. I mean what was she thinking exactly?


Um, where is the Father? Could she have gone OTC and had donated eggs implanted?

I live in So Cal too and it's been all over the news. I also don't believe that they have some mansion far far away-like I'd be in it now w/ all the people crammed into the present residence.

What I do worry about is like PP's have said, the medical cost for the preemies. My 2nd DD had reflux and mspi, until my deductibles were met I could hardly afford the meds she needed and *KAISER* (which I have) refused DD's GI Pedi's formula prescription & other things she needed for her conditions. I ended up just bfing but she can't w/ 8 babies (assuming any of them would require special formula, etc).

I have had many issues w/ Kaiser so my judgement is tainted ;)

[Momof3Labs]

All my experience with Kaiser is in SoCal; I did not know that they did IVF in North CA. But it is unlikely that this woman got a referral to Northern CA Kaiser to get treatment, so care to postulate on where this was done?

Some people travel out of the country for very cheap fertility treatment. Some head to eastern Europe, but I presume that those in the southern border states may also head to Mexico from time to time. Who knows where she went, but the reports I've also read clearly state that it was IVF.

ETA: Why are the ethics of traveling out of the country for treatment up for debate? That is the only way that some couples can afford IVF treatment (it is a fraction of the cost that it is in the U.S.) - sounds like a personal decision to me, not an ethical debate.

To the PP who questioned whether these were donated eggs: whether or not there is a father in the picture, she could have used her own eggs. It is the sperm that would have required donating if there was no father around to make the contribution himself.

[Octobermommy]

I have PCOS and had my IUI cancelled because of too many follicles. Not trying to be argumentative, but I really feel that this is just irresponsible.

I think I remember one jon and Kate episode where they said they thought there were 3 or 4 follicles, definitely not 7 or more. The cycle I conceived my dd we expected 2 follicles to release but 4 did. You never know with injectibles.

Also this is just totally a pet peeve of mine and a lot of the infertile world but embryos are never implanted, just transferred.

Where in the yahoo news story does it say she had ivf? I just read that she might have, did I miss it?

[crayonblue]

I think I remember one jon and Kate episode where they said they thought there were 3 or 4 follicles, definitely not 7 or more. The cycle I conceived my dd we expected 2 follicles to release but 4 did. You never know with injectibles.

Also this is just totally a pet peeve of mine and a lot of the infertile world but embryos are never implanted, just transferred.

Where in the yahoo news story does it say she had ivf? I just read that she might have, did I miss it?

I read Kate's autobiography and while I can't remember the specifics I do remember that they were very concerned they might end up with twins again. They did not set out to have 6 kids. They were shocked and she said really, really upset when they found out they were having 6. From what we see on TV, I am sure the thought of 6 kids was enough to send Kate over the edge!

[Globetrotter]

I have to question why someone would seek infertility tx when they have six kids already AND they are single. Unless she had a new partner and needed it to conceive since he had an issue?? I'm really curious about this particular case, even though of course it's none of my business ;)

[sarahsthreads]

I keep wondering who in their right mind would try any type of fertility treatment with six kids already. I know lots of couples struggle with infertility and I can understand if you have 0 and want 1 or have 1 and want 2 but you have 6 and want 7???

I've been lurking on this thread, but I had to respond to this. And I'm not offended, just offering another perspective...

Who gets to decide when women/couples struggling with infertility are "done"? I don't think it's anyone's place to answer this question for anyone else. We did Clomid/IUI to conceive both girls, and I really want a third child someday. What if we had four and felt our home and hearts were big enough for a fifth? Would I want 8 more? No, but I can certainly understand the desire for one more!

If we were to go the Clomid/IUI route again and end up with high order multiples I'm sure people would think we were crazy too.

Sarah :)

[ha98ed14]

ETA: Why are the ethics of traveling out of the country for treatment up for debate? That is the only way that some couples can afford IVF treatment (it is a fraction of the cost that it is in the U.S.) - sounds like a personal decision to me, not an ethical debate.

My point was not that traveling out of the country in and of itself is questionable. My issue was that if in the US, fertility doctors are unwilling to implant 8 embryos because it goes against the ethical guidelines followed here and then someone travels to a country where they will do an 8 embryo transfer, that seems unethical to me. But I realize that this is a matter of personal opinion. For many years, people traveled to other states for abortions. One could argue it is the same thing. So I realize this is my opinion and others will believe differently.

[egoldber]

My issue was that if in the US, fertility doctors are unwilling to implant 8 embryos because it goes against the ethical guidelines followed here and then someone travels to a country where they will do an 8 embryo transfer, that seems unethical to me.

I struggle with this. A close family member had 2 failed IVF cycles (about many failed Clomid and IUI cycles), then did a frozen cycle where 5 embryos were viable for transfer. She asked the RE to transfer all 5. I thought she was nuts (although she was willing to do selective reduction), but she ended up with a healthy singleton pregnancy.

For her next child, the same thing happened. She ended up with 5 healthy embryos to transfer and had them put all 5 in. Only this time it was a triplet pregnancy. She planned to reduce to a twin pregnancy, but when she went in for her reduction, she found that she had lost one baby. She went on to deliver healthy twins.

It's easy to say "I would never transfer that many embryos", but until it's your pregnancy and your money, I don't think you really know what you would do.

[ha98ed14]

I've been lurking on this thread, but I had to respond to this. And I'm not offended, just offering another perspective...

Who gets to decide when women/couples struggling with infertility are "done"? I don't think it's anyone's place to answer this question for anyone else.

...If we were to go the Clomid/IUI route again and end up with high order multiples I'm sure people would think we were crazy too.

Sarah :)

Ultimately no one gets to answer this question but the woman/ couple themselves. And in a democracy, that is as it should be. I know everyone on this board would agree that this is as it should be.

BUT, I do not think people would think you are crazy for having a 3rd via IUI, because you would be having the 3rd, not the 7th through the 14th. This is the same issue that we discuss when the Duggars have another: Why would anyone have 14+ children given the costs of feeding, clotheing and educating them in the United States?

[ha98ed14]

I struggle with this. A close family member had 2 failed IVF cycles (about many failed Clomid and IUI cycles), then did a frozen cycle where 5 embryos were viable for transfer. She asked the RE to transfer all 5. I thought she was nuts (although she was willing to do selective reduction), but she ended up with a healthy singleton pregnancy.

For her next child, the same thing happened. She ended up with 5 healthy embryos to transfer and had them put all 5 in. Only this time it was a triplet pregnancy. She planned to reduce to a twin pregnancy, but when she went in for her reduction, she found that she had lost one baby. She went on to deliver healthy twins.

It's easy to say "I would never transfer that many embryos", but until it's your pregnancy and your money, I don't think you really know what you would do.


I agree, until you are in any crisis situation personally, it is hard to tell what you will do.

But would you agree that in the scenario you are describing, the fact that the person was willing to selectively abort was the reason why she was comfortable transferring 5 embryos? I see that as a different scenario than comeone who is unwilling to selectively abort, which the octuplet mom was. I think that if you are not willing to selectivly abort, you should limit the number of embryo transfers. But as with this whole discussion, this is my opinion. I recognize the the right of a person to transfer however many they can convince their doctor to do, even if I think it is wrong.

[jacksmomtobe]

I'm thinking exactly what SnowMom said who would have fertility treatments if they (she) already has 6 kids. Also with the kids being 7,6,5, 3 & 2 yr old twins is it likely that fertility treatments were necessary? She may have potentially used fertility treatment in the past but it seems unlikely that each time that would have been the case. Plus she is only 33 so is there a real rush to have more kids? Not that I feel you should make decisions for others but it just is hard to understand any explanation/thought process that would make sense. I'm sure she wasn't going for 8 but still seems really strange.

Also to clarify a question from another poster an article I read said the Mom's Dad is a Contractor in IRAQ but did not specify any info on the dad. The article also said that the Mom was already pregnant when she came to Kaiser Bellflower.

[strollerqueen]

Well, what they are reporting here locally is that she was inseminated by a cop who is married, and whose wife doesn't know. That she told neighbors she wants 20 kids, and that a husband is not necessary. Also that her parents declared bankruptcy, she doesn't have a job, and that she is on medical, WIC, and welfare. Which begs the question, if YOU have to pay for her pregnancy, the delivery by dozens of doctors and trained medical staff, and the millions it will take to raise them all, does that change your opinion as to whether she still has the right to do this?

[KpbS]

Well, what they are reporting here locally is that she was inseminated by a cop who is married, and whose wife doesn't know. That she told neighbors she wants 20 kids, and that a husband is not necessary. Also that her parents declared bankruptcy, she doesn't have a job, and that she is on medical, WIC, and welfare. Which begs the question, if YOU have to pay for her pregnancy, the delivery by dozens of doctors and trained medical staff, and the millions it will take to raise them all, does that change your opinion as to whether she still has the right to do this?

If this is all true (and I have NO idea if it is) I feel very sorry for this family. All of them. Most of all the kids.

[gatorsmom]

Which begs the question, if YOU have to pay for her pregnancy, the delivery by dozens of doctors and trained medical staff, and the millions it will take to raise them all, does that change your opinion as to whether she still has the right to do this?

That's an excellent question and kind of hits upon a theme here lately- how much should we consider the impact of our personal decisions on our "neighbor"?

[strollerqueen]

Also, her mom went on record with the LA Times that she did do IVF with 8 embryos, and they all implanted. There is an outcry here to find the doctor and charge him with medical malpractice. Ugh, now the Housing Authority is talking about the "2 plus 1" rule. Meaning that by code, you are only allowed two people per bedroom, plus one extra on the couch, lol! So that means 5 people have to have at least 2 bedrooms, or that 17 people (in their case) have to be in an 8 bedroom house! not the 3 br they are currently in.

[emily_gracesmama]

I am just disgusted that, if what they have said is true and she is single, relying on her recently bankrupt parents and the system, WIC, welfare and whatever else, to take care of her and now her 14 children, well that's relying on all of us as taxpayers and lord knows we're in enough trouble as it is, without having this sort of situation put upon all of us. The medical bills will be in the millions caring for these children and I just do not get why why why a person would do this, if you already had 6 children. And that doc should be found and charged with malpractice, because transferring that many embryos is horrendous.

[Nooknookmom]

One So Cal news agency reported tonight that she DID go out of the country and have IVF. Don't know if they got it right but???

Oops repeat information, sorry.

[ha98ed14]

Well, what they are reporting here locally is that she was inseminated by a cop who is married, and whose wife doesn't know. That she told neighbors she wants 20 kids, and that a husband is not necessary. Also that her parents declared bankruptcy, she doesn't have a job, and that she is on medical, WIC, and welfare. Which begs the question, if YOU have to pay for her pregnancy, the delivery by dozens of doctors and trained medical staff, and the millions it will take to raise them all, does that change your opinion as to whether she still has the right to do this?

I agree with you in that, as a taxpayer who is not on the public dole, I really resent people who live their lives this way. It is completely irresponsible and devoid of any merit IMO even though I do believe that children are a blessing.

However, the sticky part comes when we really try to enforce the belief that people who behave like this are negligent. Do we make it a crime to be poor and have children? Taken to the furthest extreme, would the government begin sterilizing poor, irresponsible people after 2 kids? That is a very scary thing to think about.

While I agree that people who make these choices are pretty morally bankrupt, actually preventing them from acting like this is even scarier than the consequences of neglected children.

[mommy111]

I agree with you in that, as a taxpayer who is not on the public dole, I really resent people who live their lives this way. It is completely irresponsible and devoid of any merit IMO even though I do believe that children are a blessing.

However, the sticky part comes when we really try to enforce the belief that people who behave like this are negligent. Do we make it a crime to be poor and have children? Taken to the furthest extreme, would the government begin sterilizing poor, irresponsible people after 2 kids? That is a very scary thing to think about.

While I agree that people who make these choices are pretty morally bankrupt, actually preventing them from acting like this is even scarier than the consequences of neglected children.

:yeahthat: You said it totally so much better than I could!

[strollerqueen]

One So Cal news agency reported tonight that she DID go out of the country and have IVF. Don't know if they got it right but???

Oops repeat information, sorry.

I'm listening to one fertility specialist saying how outraged they all are in her profession, and they feel she is giving them a black eye. It will be interesting now to see if People is still paying her a huge sum for the pictures, if GM is still donating the vehicles, if she is still getting free diapers for life, etc. I also find it interesting that the media in Britian is far more upset about this than the media here. They had a case there a few years back--does anyone remember? of this welfare mom who had multiple embryos implant (can't recall if it was 7, 8, or 9.) It came out that she was being paid by a tabloid for the whole story. She was being paid per baby, each day they lived. The horrendous thing was that they died, one by one. And her story was played out in the tabloid each day. It was heartbreaking. I think that story led to stricter regulations on transferring multiple embryos there. I wonder if that will happen here.

[gatorsmom]

I'm listening to one fertility specialist saying how outraged they all are in her profession, and they feel she is giving them a black eye. It will be interesting now to see if People is still paying her a huge sum for the pictures, if GM is still donating the vehicles, if she is still getting free diapers for life, etc. I also find it interesting that the media in Britian is far more upset about this than the media here. They had a case there a few years back--does anyone remember? of this welfare mom who had multiple embryos implant (can't recall if it was 7, 8, or 9.) It came out that she was being paid by a tabloid for the whole story. She was being paid per baby, each day they lived. The horrendous thing was that they died, one by one. And her story was played out in the tabloid each day. It was heartbreaking. I think that story led to stricter regulations on transferring multiple embryos there. I wonder if that will happen here.

I was kind of wondering something like this. Do you think her intention all along was to do this for the publicity and money? I hope for the babies' sakes she is still getting hte free diapers for life and other freebies. I just hope other people don't attempt this to get those advantages.

[strollerqueen]

Her mom just told AP that all 14 children were conceived in vitro. She said she didn't support the decision, because she felt six were too many without a husband. But, that she had been obsessed with babies since she was a teen-ager.

[kijip]

While I agree that people who make these choices are pretty morally bankrupt, actually preventing them from acting like this is even scarier than the consequences of neglected children.

:yeahthat:

While it makes me scratch my head and frankly I think it is reckless at best to risk this knowingly, I agree with you that it can't be effectively legislated in the least.

And thankfully, it's not a common thing at all.

[Rainbows&Roses]

If grandma is telling the truth, this story is very sad indeed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

[JBaxter]

If grandma is telling the truth, this story is very sad indeed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

Bill O'Reilly said last night that he bets she is a nut.... Im starting to think he may be right. Wonder what she is going to do if its just her? Sounds like CPS will have to get involved. Her mother shouldnt be obligated to care for her children

[ha98ed14]

If grandma is telling the truth, this story is very sad indeed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

Wow. This is like something out of the soap operas. What is going to happen if the grandma does what she says she will do and will not be around when the mother gets out of the hospital? She has no help then. It's so sad. I think she should give the Octuplets up for adoption. There are so many families who would love to have just one baby and could give that child so much. It's so sad that these 8 are joining the first 6 in an already financially and emotionally strained family.

[katydid1971]

Bill O'Reilly said last night that he bets she is a nut.... Im starting to think he may be right. Wonder what she is going to do if its just her? Sounds like CPS will have to get involved. Her mother should be obligated to care for her children
I don't normally agree with Bill O'Reilly but this time I think he's right. Also it sounds like at least one of the older children is autistic, with some many high needs children, none is going to get the care s/he needs. I feel so badly for the children. The doctor who implanted those babies should be ashamed!!! He obviously cares more about the money than the lives he's creating!!!!!

[WatchingThemGrow]

This is all just surreal. I really think those of us who pray need to really lift up these kids and the whole family in our prayers.

So, what do you think about the educational facts: She has a recent degree in Child and Adolescent Development and was studying for a Master's in Counseling. Hmm....my Counseling program required some interviewing and personality testing, from what I remember. Wonder if she was in the program or just taking random classes - and HOW???

[buddyleebaby]

She sounds mentally ill.

If she already had frozen embryos...could the Doctors legally restrict her access to them?

[JBaxter]

they could have refused to inplant them all

[buddyleebaby]

Yes, I figured they could refuse to implant them all at once but then what happens to them...

I don't know how it works, I'm just wondering!

[ha98ed14]

Yes, I figured they could refuse to implant them all at once but then what happens to them...

I don't know how it works, I'm just wondering!

This is actually a huge ethical issue now that IVF has become so widespread: What to do with the remaining frozen embryos when the parent(s) decide they are done having children. Right now, a lot of them are staying frozen in labs indefinitely. Some people advocate donating them to science. Others advocate donating them to other people who want kids but cannot make their own embryos. No one seems ok with just throwing them out with the trash, Thank God. But it really is an ethical dilemma.

[egoldber]

If she already had frozen embryos...could the Doctors legally restrict her access to them?

The person I know who had 5 embryos transferred, the RE made her sign a waiver saying that she agreed to consider selective reduction. But when push comes to shove, that is unenforceable and they cannot make you reduce.

[strollerqueen]

Bill O'Reilly said last night that he bets she is a nut.... Im starting to think he may be right. Wonder what she is going to do if its just her? Sounds like CPS will have to get involved. Her mother should be obligated to care for her children

Could I ask why you say her mother,the grandmother, should be obligated to care for 14 grandchildren? Or maybe I am reading it wrong...

[mama2g03]

Could I ask why you say her mother,the grandmother, should be obligated to care for 14 grandchildren? Or maybe I am reading it wrong...

:yeahthat:

[JBaxter]

Could I ask why you say her mother,the grandmother, should be obligated to care for 14 grandchildren? Or maybe I am reading it wrong...

sorry typo NAK SHOULDNT is what I was trying to say Ill correct my post :)

[buddyleebaby]

The person I know who had 5 embryos transferred, the RE made her sign a waiver saying that she agreed to consider selective reduction. But when push comes to shove, that is unenforceable and they cannot make you reduce.

Yes.
I meant before they were transferred.
If I am reading it correctly, the reason she had IVF again was because she had "left-over" embryos from the last time.

[JBaxter]

and she wanted one more girl

[jray]

Wow! This story is so remarkable on many sides. It does sound like the mother has some "mental" things going on. I've always wanted to be a mommy, but had no desire for 14 kids. However, I can't believe this woman's mother would turn against her publicly like that! I understand her concerns with her daughter, but this is a private matter that should not be in the press. I do think there was irresponsibility on both the medical side, and on the side with this mother. However, babies are born everyday because of irresponsible "decisions" and I thank God for every one of them here on earth. They have a purpose, no matter how crazy their entry into this world may be. I do pray for these babies and for the mother and grandmother. I hope they can continue to work together for the sake of the family. This mom is going to need A LOT of support, and I pray the babes have the best life possible.

[mama2g03]

sorry typo NAK SHOULDNT is what I was trying to say Ill correct my post :)

Oh! Ok, then, :yeahthat: to your post, too.

I feel bad for her parents. They are in a hard spot that was not caused by their own choices. The daughter (mom of the 14) seems irresponsible, irrational and deluded as to what impact her choices are going to have on her whole family. So sad, especially for all of those children.

[egoldber]

I meant before they were transferred.
If I am reading it correctly, the reason she had IVF again was because she had "left-over" embryos from the last time.

I guess I'm not sure what you mean. If they implant that many or more than they would normally based on whatever reason (age of mother, history of unsuccessful IVFs with multiple transfers, financial reasons) then it's standard practice to have the parents sign a waiver to consider reduction. Whether it is a frozen or fresh cycle is immaterial to that.

My point was that anyone could lie and say they would consider reduction and then not.

[niccig]

This mom is going to need A LOT of support, and I pray the babes have the best life possible.

She's going to need more than the grandparents help. I remember reading an article about a family with sextuplets, and they had an entire group of volunteers from their community coming in to help. Night-time feeding with 8 plus another 6 to care for during the day, will need more than 3 people. It's also different to the Duggars situation as they have 19 spread out with the kids needed different attention, and older siblings to help with younger siblings. But in this family 8 are the same age.

As for the grandparents, they are NOT obligated to help. They may very well help, but it's awfully unfair of the daughter to give them these responsibilities that they may not want or be able to cope with - the grandparents may have their own issues to deal with. I can see it causing a lot of resentment.

I think CPS will be closely monitoring to make sure none of the 14 kids are neglected. I just hope that the Mom loves being a mom and raising the kids, and isn't just obsessed with the pregnancy and delivery part of things.

[strollerqueen]

I am not AT ALL in favor of the government saying how many children people are allowed to have, or forced sterilization of poor people, or anything like that. I have no problem with the Duggars, for example, (who have come under a lot more criticism than octo-mom,) because they are taking care of their children on their own, without government assistance, and they seem to be doing a good job. But there are a lot of mentally unbalanced people out there running around (or maybe I just see more where I live, lol!) And maybe there should be some incentives for people who clearly can't take care of the children they have, not to have any more. Instead of the reverse. I mean, CPS anywhere can tell you of crack mothers who have had 10 babies with 10 different men, all born with various problems, and all taken away from their mom due to neglect. Now what happens to those poor children? There was a guy in one town who offered crack moms $250 to get their tubes tied, and the line was out the door. It seems mercenary. But, it is their choice, and they are not creating any more emotionally/neurologically/physically impaired children who will likely become wards of the state, and a burden to taxpayers. I don't know what else can be done, except that the doctor who transferred those embryos should be facing medical malpractice, or at least disciplinary action by his profession.

[MamaKath]

I don't normally agree with Bill O'Reilly but this time I think he's right. Also it sounds like at least one of the older children is autistic, with some many high needs children, none is going to get the care s/he needs. I feel so badly for the children. The doctor who implanted those babies should be ashamed!!! He obviously cares more about the money than the lives he's creating!!!!!
I feel badly for the children and the grandparents. I hope CPS will make sure she is able to care for them, as they would/should in any situation where there is that concern of neglect of a child's needs.

I wonder though, how she is able to afford this. I would LOVE to have another child. I realize how expensive raising them is, however at this point dh and I can't afford the making one part. We are both working and trying to make sure we are financially stable for the 2 we have and for the future (more or not).

The whole story leaves me feeling nauseous!!!

[hollybloom24]

It may be that there is no MD involved. Unused fertility drugs are commonly resold by patients trying to afford treatments. There is also the possibility that she was told there were many eggs that cycle and to avoid intercourse and did not. Not much the MD can do to prevent that. Thirdly, she lives in LA - about a three hour drive to TJ from there and you can buy many drugs OTC there that are Rx only in the US.

I'd have to guess this is what happened - I can't imagine my RE putting me in a situation where there was a high risk of this happening... Of course anything can happen - you could implant four embryos and they could all split... Or like a PP wrote she may not have followed the MD's instructions...

I hope the babies all end up healthy!

[o_mom]

I'm hoping that with the time they are spending in the NICU the staff can get a good picture of her ability to handle the situation.

[strollerqueen]

I'd have to guess this is what happened - I can't imagine my RE putting me in a situation where there was a high risk of this happening... Of course anything can happen - you could implant four embryos and they could all split... Or like a PP wrote she may not have followed the MD's instructions...

I hope the babies all end up healthy!

No, her mom said all 14 were from IVF, and all from the same sperm donor. The local stories here say he is a cop, who is married, and his wife, doesn't know. Now if this is true, can you imagine how you would feel if you found out there were 14 little children made by your DH out there?????

[Ceepa]

No, her mom said all 14 were from IVF, and all from the same sperm donor. The local stories here say he is a cop, who is married, and his wife, doesn't know. Now if this is true, can you imagine how you would feel if you found out there were 14 little children made by your DH out there?????


See this is why I hate all the conjecture being reported by the press. I read they have the father's name for the four oldest kids but didn't confirm for the others. Too much tabloid talk. We're not going to know the facts of this story for a while, if ever.

[buddyleebaby]

I guess I'm not sure what you mean. If they implant that many or more than they would normally based on whatever reason (age of mother, history of unsuccessful IVFs with multiple transfers, financial reasons) then it's standard practice to have the parents sign a waiver to consider reduction. Whether it is a frozen or fresh cycle is immaterial to that.

My point was that anyone could lie and say they would consider reduction and then not.

Yes. I am not asking whether or not they could force her to reduce. What I mean is, when she first came in and said "Hey, you still have eight of my embryos in your freezer, and I want to be pregnant again!", could they have said "Well we won't implant any of them because you are a nut job."
I'm assuming the answer is yes...
At any rate it's not really relevant. Sorry for babbling. :)

[Sillygirl]

This lady seems cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

That said, I'm a little uncomfortable about the intense media interest. It seems that women's bodies are STILL something that society seeks to control. There are plenty of people making stupid choices that we all pay for. From the 23 year old who blew off their treatments for lupus and wound up on dialysis, to the 45 year old reformed drinker who needs a liver transplant, to the 90 year old with dementia whose family demands a month of intensive care when they fall ill with pneumonia. But when it's a woman and her reproductive system, suddenly we're all up in her uterus. As if it wasn't crowded enough in there already.

[veronica]

This lady seems cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

That said, I'm a little uncomfortable about the intense media interest. It seems that women's bodies are STILL something that society seeks to control. There are plenty of people making stupid choices that we all pay for. From the 23 year old who blew off their treatments for lupus and wound up on dialysis, to the 45 year old reformed drinker who needs a liver transplant, to the 90 year old with dementia whose family demands a month of intensive care when they fall ill with pneumonia. But when it's a woman and her reproductive system, suddenly we're all up in her uterus. As if it wasn't crowded enough in there already.

Agree with you to a point. Yes, there are many people that fall into situations that "we all pay for" but when it comes to things in a uterus, I think most people feel an intense sympathy for the children that were brought into this world under her circumstance and pray that they are in a healthy situation. While octo-mom's actions are just as selfish as every other situation you mentioned, my gut still feels more upset over her actions because there are babies that have to bare the burden of her selfishness and not just taxpayers.....just my $.02

[MamaMolly]

I wonder though, how she is able to afford this.

:yeahthat: Here in VA the going rate for IVF is about $15K - $20K a pop. I want to know how some one who is a full time student and not working, who's family is bankrupt has paid for the 4 or 5 IVFs this woman has had.

I pity this woman because she doesn't seem to be making healthy decisions for herself or her kids. From what I've read she is putting her desire to have more children ahed of the well being of her already-existing kids. For heaven's sake, she could have died in such a high risk pregnancy, leaving her children orphans! This just doesn't seem like someone making rational decisions.

[tiapam]

Her parents have enabled her by letting her live with them. I doubt she is paying them rent, KWIM?

[JBaxter]

I just read this
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2191783.ece?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

[Nooknookmom]

Her parents have enabled her by letting her live with them. I doubt she is paying them rent, KWIM?


Agreed. However, maybe the grandmother feels that if she doesn't let her & the kids stay, they will not receive adequate care/attention, etc. What a rock and a hard place for the grandparents.

I would LOVE to have a picture into this woman's childhood and *why* she feels the need to keep having children. That's the psycoanalyst in me ;)

[strollerqueen]

This lady seems cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

That said, I'm a little uncomfortable about the intense media interest. It seems that women's bodies are STILL something that society seeks to control. There are plenty of people making stupid choices that we all pay for. From the 23 year old who blew off their treatments for lupus and wound up on dialysis, to the 45 year old reformed drinker who needs a liver transplant, to the 90 year old with dementia whose family demands a month of intensive care when they fall ill with pneumonia. But when it's a woman and her reproductive system, suddenly we're all up in her uterus. As if it wasn't crowded enough in there already.


Except that this is the first time anyone has had octuplets in which all of the babies survived. It is news because it is a historic event.

[ILoveLucy]

Except that this is the first time anyone has had octuplets in which all of the babies survived. It is news because it is a historic event.

ITA. What did she, or anyone for that matter, expect to happen? I don't think it has anything to do with controlling a woman's body. People can't help but be interested in it and have an opinion about it, just like anything else so far out of the ordinary. A person's choice of medical treatment is pretty dull to outsiders; the hows and whys of this choice, what kind of person would chose this, and how she will be able to handle it is interesting to lots of people.

[Sillygirl]

ITA. What did she, or anyone for that matter, expect to happen? I don't think it has anything to do with controlling a woman's body. People can't help but be interested in it and have an opinion about it, just like anything else so far out of the ordinary. A person's choice of medical treatment is pretty dull to outsiders; the hows and whys of this choice, what kind of person would chose this, and how she will be able to handle it is interesting to lots of people.

I think that argument overlooks a lot of the tone of control that the larger discussion has taken. How was she allowed, could she have been stopped, how should she be punished. . . I think there's a lot more going on here than cooing over eight babies.

The Dionne quints were at least as amazing - concieved in the preIVF era, identical, survived in the pre-NICU era. Incidentally, female. They were taken from their parents and forced to live in a zoo. Cultures (the quints were Canadian) seem to get oddly possessive about a woman, her babies, and her reproductive choices, and multiples seem to, well, multiply that effect.

[brittone2]

Not sure how different this is than some of the previous links, but :
http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstories/?Octuplets-Mother-is-Obsessed-with-Childr=1&blockID=196258&feedID=1198

[TonFirst]

Aaaaaand, enter Oprah:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5627531.ece

[Momof3Labs]

Yes.
I meant before they were transferred.
If I am reading it correctly, the reason she had IVF again was because she had "left-over" embryos from the last time.

Yeah, but nothing says that you have to put back all your tot-sicles at once. They can thaw a few (some usually do not survive the thaw) and put back a modest number in one cycle. The rest stay on ice until you want them again.

I wonder if this was a money decision made by a loony-tunes. You have to pay annually for storage, and there are drug and dr bills each time you cycle. Perhaps she was running out of insurance benefits and/or money (if you don't pay your annual storage bills on your frozen embryos, they will eventually be disposed of per the instructions you were required to give before anything was frozen) and found some stupid, unethical doctor who was willing to go for broke.

[buddyleebaby]

Yeah, but nothing says that you have to put back all your tot-sicles at once. They can thaw a few (some usually do not survive the thaw) and put back a modest number in one cycle. The rest stay on ice until you want them again.

I wonder if this was a money decision made by a loony-tunes. You have to pay annually for storage, and there are drug and dr bills each time you cycle. Perhaps she was running out of insurance benefits and/or money (if you don't pay your annual storage bills on your frozen embryos, they will eventually be disposed of per the instructions you were required to give before anything was frozen) and found some stupid, unethical doctor who was willing to go for broke.

This is what I was wondering- what would happen to the embryos if she wanted more children but could find no Doctor willing to do it. Could the Doctors destroy them or are they considered to be hers? Would they have to store them as long as she was paying the bills but not implant them? I really was just thinking about things I had never thought about before.
I wasn't saying I thought it was ethical to put them all in there at once! Or any in there, for that matter.

[JBaxter]

Yeah, but nothing says that you have to put back all your tot-sicles at once. They can thaw a few (some usually do not survive the thaw) and put back a modest number in one cycle. The rest stay on ice until you want them again.

I wonder if this was a money decision made by a loony-tunes. You have to pay annually for storage, and there are drug and dr bills each time you cycle. Perhaps she was running out of insurance benefits and/or money (if you don't pay your annual storage bills on your frozen embryos, they will eventually be disposed of per the instructions you were required to give before anything was frozen) and found some stupid, unethical doctor who was willing to go for broke.

Lori I about choked on my cookie..... Tot-sicles!!!!! :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

[emily_gracesmama]

My friend who had IVF and had frozen embryos left called them her kid-sicles!

[ShanaMama]

This lady seems cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

That said, I'm a little uncomfortable about the intense media interest. It seems that women's bodies are STILL something that society seeks to control. There are plenty of people making stupid choices that we all pay for. From the 23 year old who blew off their treatments for lupus and wound up on dialysis, to the 45 year old reformed drinker who needs a liver transplant, to the 90 year old with dementia whose family demands a month of intensive care when they fall ill with pneumonia. But when it's a woman and her reproductive system, suddenly we're all up in her uterus. As if it wasn't crowded enough in there already.

Wow. Just wow. I am so shocked by this entire thread. I cannot believe I am the first one to dissent. I am way too tired to type a coherent response, so I hope I can make myself understood without stirring the pot too much! ;)

I believe in the sanctity of human life. Any human life. It shocks me to read about the 'tragedy' of 8 babies being born. We are talking about 8 human beings here! I am not trying to be simplistic- I realize these children will have many issues. There is so much to debate here, and I understand that most of the objections people have are related to the fact that she is on welfare. I often get frustrated that my paycheck goes to support other people's often foolish choices, but if we want to have welfare programs to help people that is the reality. They can be abused. Who decides who gets to have children and who doesn't? Yes, this woman sounds like a kook, so my objection is more to the tone of this thread than this specific case.

The pp I quoted presents other examples that clarify my objection, specifically this one: "90 year old with dementia whose family demands a month of intensive care when they fall ill with pneumonia".
I am picturing my grandparent in that situation. You can bet I'd demand a month of intensive care. You might think that's a waste of resources. I look at it as lengthening the life of the elderly person, & I find value in that .
It boils down to who gets to decide what is more important. Is it quality of life? Is it life itself? What about people who choose to bring children into the world and don't have the resources to care for those children? Many of us feel that those children should not have been born. Who decides how many resources each child needs? One family may feel that private school and yearly Disney trips are required for their child's quality of life and will not have more children because they can't provide those things. Another family will choose differently. Does someone on welfare need to submit to taxpayer approval before having kids? The questions are endless.
I don't claim to have answers. I just thought I'd raise the points because this thread seems to be so one-sided. I know from experience that most of the posters on this board are in favor of programs that help lower income people, such as welfare. I've read many posts where people said they'd choose to give up something for their family (taxes) so that lower class/ income people could have something instead. A system is never perfect and there are people who will abuse it. It certainly seems that this woman plans to abuse the system. Question: how different would the reaction be if this woman had unlimited funds to support herself? Pointing to the Duggars, who are mainly self sufficient, pp still had very heated reactions about how irresponsible/ ridiculous it is to have so many children. So what exactly is the issue at hand?

[tnrnchick74]

Wow. Just wow. I am so shocked by this entire thread. I cannot believe I am the first one to dissent. I am way too tired to type a coherent response, so I hope I can make myself understood without stirring the pot too much! ;)



I can't speak for anyone but myself. I do not have any problems with the babies being born. I do not have any problem with IVF in general. I could never do a selective reduction. I don't want to control how many children people have.

What I'm a little angry about in this situation (and I suspect many people are) is 1 - the RE transferring so many embryeos. This goes against EVERY ethical guideline REs have. High order multiple pregnancy have MAJOR issues - both for the mother and the baby. It's not as simple as them being born premature. I cannot fathom why anyone would purposefully do this and basically force their child to live with the consequences of prematurity and being a high order multiple. I'm not discussing J&K - accidents happen in the RE world. But to PURPOSELLY transfer that many embys is insane.

2 - I have a problem with a single, welfare mother with 6 other children purposfully going through IVF and allowing that many embys to be transferred. I think there are much better uses of MY money. If she were independantly wealthy, or even self-sufficient, then I would not have a problem. But the fact that she cannot/will not work and chooses to enter into this shows mental instability.

I don't care how big your family size is - but you should be able to support them without draining the system. I wish the babies nothing but good, +, healthy thoughts. But the fact is that they WILL have problems. It's inevitable with a high order multiple because of the prematurity. and now they will be growing up in poverty. That again has its own issues.

[mommy111]

Wow. Just wow. I am so shocked by this entire thread. I cannot believe I am the first one to dissent. I am way too tired to type a coherent response, so I hope I can make myself understood without stirring the pot too much! ;)

I believe in the sanctity of human life. Any human life. It shocks me to read about the 'tragedy' of 8 babies being born. We are talking about 8 human beings here! I am not trying to be simplistic- I realize these children will have many issues. There is so much to debate here, and I understand that most of the objections people have are related to the fact that she is on welfare. I often get frustrated that my paycheck goes to support other people's often foolish choices, but if we want to have welfare programs to help people that is the reality. They can be abused. Who decides who gets to have children and who doesn't? Yes, this woman sounds like a kook, so my objection is more to the tone of this thread than this specific case.

The pp I quoted presents other examples that clarify my objection, specifically this one: "90 year old with dementia whose family demands a month of intensive care when they fall ill with pneumonia".
I am picturing my grandparent in that situation. You can bet I'd demand a month of intensive care. You might think that's a waste of resources. I look at it as lengthening the life of the elderly person, & I find value in that .
It boils down to who gets to decide what is more important. Is it quality of life? Is it life itself? What about people who choose to bring children into the world and don't have the resources to care for those children? Many of us feel that those children should not have been born. Who decides how many resources each child needs? One family may feel that private school and yearly Disney trips are required for their child's quality of life and will not have more children because they can't provide those things. Another family will choose differently. Does someone on welfare need to submit to taxpayer approval before having kids? The questions are endless.
I don't claim to have answers. I just thought I'd raise the points because this thread seems to be so one-sided. I know from experience that most of the posters on this board are in favor of programs that help lower income people, such as welfare. I've read many posts where people said they'd choose to give up something for their family (taxes) so that lower class/ income people could have something instead. A system is never perfect and there are people who will abuse it. It certainly seems that this woman plans to abuse the system. Question: how different would the reaction be if this woman had unlimited funds to support herself? Pointing to the Duggars, who are mainly self sufficient, pp still had very heated reactions about how irresponsible/ ridiculous it is to have so many children. So what exactly is the issue at hand?

Ya know, that's how I think this lady felt who had the 8 kids. She had frozen embryos, she did not want to 'waste' them. All implanted, she did not want to get selective reduction, which, to her mind, was killing them. So we have this woman who really believes in the sanctity of life. I think that is an alternative way of looking at her rather than thinking of her as crazy. A lot of people do things to follow their beliefs that other people think are crazy. (don't ask me personally if I think she's cuckoo :)...just sayin')
I think the big reason people are upset is because she is on welfare and perceived as 'living on their money' Thank heavens, then, that we don't get to decide whether welfare gets doled out in individual situations!



That said, I'm a little uncomfortable about the intense media interest. It seems that women's bodies are STILL something that society seeks to control. There are plenty of people making stupid choices that we all pay for. From the 23 year old who blew off their treatments for lupus and wound up on dialysis, to the 45 year old reformed drinker who needs a liver transplant, to the 90 year old with dementia whose family demands a month of intensive care when they fall ill with pneumonia. But when it's a woman and her reproductive system, suddenly we're all up in her uterus. As if it wasn't crowded enough in there already.

:yeahthat:

[JBaxter]

Ya know, that's how I think this lady felt who had the 8 kids. She had frozen embryos, she did not want to 'waste' them. All implanted, she did not want to get selective reduction, which, to her mind, was killing them. So we have this woman who really believes in the sanctity of life. I think that is an alternative way of looking at her rather than thinking of her as crazy. A lot of people do things to follow their beliefs that other people think are crazy. (don't ask me personally if I think she's cuckoo :)...just sayin')
I think the big reason people are upset is because she is on welfare and perceived as 'living on their money' Thank heavens, then, that we don't get to decide whether welfare gets doled out in individual situations!


:yeahthat:

Its not ONLY the fact that she has no job no insurance but she has 6 OTHER children who need her equally as much they are all 7 and under with a set of 2yr old twins and an autistic child. Why are those children going to have to suffer because their mother made her decision to have more children.
Its not lik she can get any help from the others in the home because her mother is leaving. Yes I think she has mental issues as her mother does ( she has asked for someone to evaluate her daugher )
There is not even space for that many children in a 2 bedroom house

[MamaKath]

I believe in the sanctity of human life. Any human life.

I do also. I still believe she was irresponsible when she has 6 kids already, is a single mom unable to support and care for them on her own, and implanting all the embryos at once. So now there are 8 new lives with a very precarious situation to go home to. I think that is where many of us are concerned.

I think some people don't realize that not everyone is going to have a tv reality show (ala Jon and Kate Plus 8) to support their kids.

[MamaKath]

I think some people don't realize that not everyone is going to have a tv reality show (ala Jon and Kate Plus 8) to support their kids.

Okay, quoting myself, lol. Just saw this.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5627531.ece

So basically she wants her own show because she is an expert at having babies through IVF and then letting her mom raise them. Sad!

[kijip]

I believe in the sanctity of human life. Any human life.

Believing that this was reckless or irresponsible or admitting it was dangerous is not the same as devaluing human life.

In fact I would go so far as to say the least life affirming thing about this is a woman having 8 embryos transferred, risking all of their and her own deaths AND when she lacks the ability to care for even the 6 she has. She was essentially gambling against high odds...thankfully it turned out ok so far but a far more likely outcome would have been literally creating life to see at least some of them ended or orphaning her other children.

[emily_gracesmama]

I agree, I feel bad for the 6 kids she had prior. She was hospitalized for 8 weeks pregnant with the 8, so her six kids were left to her parents to care for, how is that fair to them. It really sounds like they are at their wits end, they can't control her and stop her and they enable her by being there to care for the kids, which allowed her to go and have more. Very obviously, something is not right with her mentally. She can't possibly be right thinking it's a good idea to have more children when she is not providing for the ones she has already. I do not think it is a good idea for welfare mothers to have lots of children provided for by the system either, but this situation was created so willfully by undergoing the IVF so many times. I really think that the doctor needs to be found and his medical license revoked because this is criminal setting her up so many times and with so many embryos. As more and more of this story comes out, we may find she is someone who relishes the pregnancy and baby, since she seems to be repeating it annually. I definitely would have less issue if she could provide for these children and had some sort of support system versus parents that seem ready to bolt.


Also, wouldn't it have been possible to donate the frozen embryos to others to use if she didn't want to destroy them? I really don't know if you can do this.....

[KpbS]

Also, wouldn't it have been possible to donate the frozen embryos to others to use if she didn't want to destroy them? I really don't know if you can do this.....

Yes, absolutely! There are many prospective families out there hoping for embryo adoption and babies subsequently.

[purpleeyes]

I believe in the sanctity of human life. Any human life. It shocks me to read about the 'tragedy' of 8 babies being born.
Question: how different would the reaction be if this woman had unlimited funds to support herself? Pointing to the Duggars, who are mainly self sufficient, pp still had very heated reactions about how irresponsible/ ridiculous it is to have so many children. So what exactly is the issue at hand?

The 'tragedy' is that these babies may not get the care they need, b/c of this woman's selfishness and/or mental health issues. The 'tragedy' is the autistic child who does not get the care/attention needs because of this woman's selfishness and/or mental health issues. I hardly think we're talking about disney vacations.
These babies didn't come out of nowhere, she CHOSE to implant 8 of them and yes, I have a problem with that-mostly with the medical establishment that let it happen.

Since when are the duggar's self-sufficient? TLC paid for that house, those groceries, that van, those washing machines... they get to prothlesize and free groceries! Score!

I know that I sound harsh, but I am sick and tired of people talking about the sanctity of human life of fetuses or newborns and totally forgetting the life of children who are already here.

[JBaxter]

The Duggers were living debt free before the TLC show. They were building the house themselves they own comercial property and live off the rents ( as well as some cellphone towers located on their property) They also own a used car dealership that the older boys run. I think TLC did pay for some of the finishing of the house but it was under roof even in the first show. They buy used everything ( except the furniture for the new house I believe) They live very frugle to the point of making their own laundry soap.

[Ceepa]

I know that I sound harsh, but I am sick and tired of people talking about the sanctity of human life of fetuses or newborns and totally forgetting the life of children who are already here.

I didn't interpret pp's post that the two were mutually exclusive. That people could talk about the sanctity of human life of fetuses or newborns and it would follow that they were "totally forgetting the life of children who are already here."

[mommy111]

Its not ONLY the fact that she has no job no insurance but she has 6 OTHER children who need her equally as much they are all 7 and under with a set of 2yr old twins and an autistic child. Why are those children going to have to suffer because their mother made her decision to have more children.
Its not lik she can get any help from the others in the home because her mother is leaving. Yes I think she has mental issues as her mother does ( she has asked for someone to evaluate her daugher )
There is not even space for that many children in a 2 bedroom house

I'm not disagreeing...at all. This is not a choice that I'd choose to make. If a friend were making this choice, I'd try as much as possible to persuade her not to do this. BUT, looking at things from her point of view, she could counter all those arguments. She could say, for eample, that this whole issue of 2 kids/space etc is a very recent Western perspective. It sounds like she is moving into a larger house. I don't know how large her house is sq footage wise, but someone in Japan, for example, may tell you its entirely possible for 9 people to live in a 2 bedroom house. And she may say that she gives more time and attention to her kids, being unemployed and on welfare, than for example I do working outside of home. I don't know what's right and what's wrong, but I'm very uncomfortable with the implications of people trying to regulate other people's families especially based on the fact that we support them through welfare.
Again, its like the issue of breastfeeding and vaccinating. Someone could say you endanger your child by not breastfeeding them. But can you legislate breastfeeding? I'd be very uncomfortable with supporting legislation that does that, no matter how pro-BF I may be.
Sorry if I'm rambling, home after a night shift.

[MamaKath]

She could say, for eample, that this whole issue of 2 kids/space etc is a very recent Western perspective. It sounds like she is moving into a larger house. I don't know how large her house is sq footage wise, but someone in Japan, for example, may tell you its entirely possible for 9 people to live in a 2 bedroom house.

And she may say that she gives more time and attention to her kids, being unemployed and on welfare, than for example I do working outside of home.

Also playing a bit of devil's advocate here...

Most states actually have laws regarding opposite sex children room sharing past a certain age. Most of the laws regard each child having a bed of their own. So no matter how western the philosophy, she is most likely already breaking the law in the eyes of the state. I am not saying I agree with that, or that in most countries that is the case, I am stating in the US it is.

Also how much attention is she giving when she has a nanny, her mother and father taking care of them and is going to school time. Obviously more than if she were also working to support them, but it is clear that she has made choices that most people would not.

[mykidsmom]

Also playing a bit of devil's advocate here...

Most states actually have laws regarding opposite sex children room sharing past a certain age. Most of the laws regard each child having a bed of their own. So no matter how western the philosophy, she is most likely already breaking the law in the eyes of the state. I am not saying I agree with that, or that in most countries that is the case, I am stating in the US it is.



This is only true if you are a foster parent. I am pretty sure there are NOT any "laws" against who can share a room if you are raising your own children and not involved with Social Services or are a foster parent.

[MamaKath]

This is only true if you are a foster parent. I am pretty sure there are NOT any "laws" against who can share a room if you are raising your own children and not involved with Social Services or are a foster parent.
In some states it is only applying to foster care, but not in all states. I have known people in 3 different states on the east coast who had to move due to this when their children became school aged.

[MamaMolly]

Also, wouldn't it have been possible to donate the frozen embryos to others to use if she didn't want to destroy them? I really don't know if you can do this.....

Yes she could donate, but this would be a very difficult decision to make. It is very much like giving up your child for adoption which is a beautiful thing, but wrenching none the less.

All babies are a blessing. I am glad the babies are alive, I'm glad they are doing well. My problem is twofold: One being the doctor who implanted that many embryos. What the heck was s/he thinking???? The second is that mom COULD have done it in smaller amounts over time. Like she could have had 8 more kids, just not all at once, you know? It is the all at once I find so disturbing in that is really seems to be taking very serious very unnecessary risks.

I don't think anyone has said that these babies existing is a tragedy (maybe I missed it?) but I DI think that many of us agree that their *circumstances* are grim.

[egoldber]

The second is that mom COULD have done it in smaller amounts over time. Like she could have had 8 more kids, just not all at once, you know?

Not necessarily. The embryos are usually frozen in batches. The reason the person I knew did 5 at once was because that was how many were frozen in one "tube". Once it's defrosted, you can't re-freeze.

[strollerqueen]

Also playing a bit of devil's advocate here...

Most states actually have laws regarding opposite sex children room sharing past a certain age. Most of the laws regard each child having a bed of their own. So no matter how western the philosophy, she is most likely already breaking the law in the eyes of the state. I am not saying I agree with that, or that in most countries that is the case, I am stating in the US it is.

Also how much attention is she giving when she has a nanny, her mother and father taking care of them and is going to school time. Obviously more than if she were also working to support them, but it is clear that she has made choices that most people would not.

You're correct. In CA, it is illegal. A housing code officer spoke about the situation early on. Here, there is a two plus one law. In other words, you are allowed 2 to a bedroom, plus one on the couch. So a 2 BR house would only work for 5 people (2 in each bedroom, one on the couch.) Before the octos, they had 9 people, which meant they needed a 4 BR house. Now, they have 17, so they need an 8 BR house to comply with regulations. Yikes!

[Fairy]

I've lurked this for days. I've read all the articles about this mother. I'm taping Today tomorrow, as I'm sure there will be something, and I've read ... alot, but not all ... of the pages in this thread, I respect everyone's opinion whether I agree with it or not, and I'm just going to come out with my opinion on it all, and I don't apologize for it.

Assuming the grandmothers' statements are accurate, and assuming it really truly was IVF of all eight embryos and that it wasn't fewer that then split (which is no one's fault) -- or, ya know, even then, we're assuming it was some treatment-enhanced method of gettign pregnant, then -->

* This woman clearly has significant issues of one kind or another. If it's a mental illness, I sympathetically understand it, but I do not give her a pass for it; if it's not mental illness, then her judgment is wacked, and I equally do not give her a pass.

* No one should want to have eight children at the same time. Humans are not meant to have litters. Finding yourself in this position without intent is a very different thing than planning it. I have respect for anyone finding themselves in a position of multiples going thru without selective reduction, tho that would never be the choice I'd make. What this woman did, if it's true, is choose almost certain medical and developmentmental issues for these eight children because of her selfishness and stupidity.

* As far as I know, we still don't know which doctor did this. If it's true, and if this is a US IVF, then this doctor should be punished to the fullest extent of his industry, the law, and whatever body has jurisdiction for whatever he can be "charged" with (criminal or otherwise, tho that's probably a stretch).

* Children already in existence have dibs over the ones not yet here. I'm not saying she shoudl have aborted the pregnancy -- but if you're prioritizing, I think it's too bad she didn't come to her senses, cuz now not only are these eight kids behind the eight ball like nobody's business, but the six already here that much less likely to have the best possible environment to thrive in.

* I have never believed that a child needs two parents to be loved and nurtured and to thrive. I don't even think you need two parents fo the opposite gender. but I do think that people who are not in a position to provide for a child properly shoulod not have them. I'm not saying you have to be wealthy enough to be able to send your kid to Penn. But I do think that certain people in certain situations should not have kids or any additional kids. Like this chick. Fourteen frakkin' kids, no father, a grandmother who's given up, and a grandfather in Iraq. Yeah, everyone should have the right to reproduce, yadda yadda yadda. But there comes a time when ya gotta just scratch your head and say, dude, what the hell is your problem?

* The Duggars are living high on the TLC hog. Good for them. Jon & Kate are set for life. Fine. The Dilleys and McAugheys (sp) are not enjoying the same kind of subsidation, and are living their lives. Now, I don't see the seven remaining of the black Octuplets getting a real dime from anyone (I won't even go there). But if this chick gets a show or positive reinforcement of any kind, I'm gonna puke.

* All that said, these babies are here. They deserve every opportunity and health and happiness. I don't believe for one mintue that their ability to thrive and have normal lives is going to be because of their family; it's going to be because of the kindness of others donating their necessities. And non-cessities.

So, what does all this mean for these 14 children? Seriously, how does this possibly end well? The grandmother has had it. The woman's not wealthy. There is no father (that we know of, really, I mean we know what we know from the grandmother). No one can force her to give the kids up for adoption, and even if she did, now eight siblings are split up. We've got an autistic child at home. How does this end well?

I'm really disgusted. I wish these 14 children only the happiest, healthiest lives. I wish them positive good things. I feel bad for them that they were born into thsi situation that not one of them asked for. They're innocents. And this woman and whatever doctor enabled it are disturbed, awful people, as far as I'm concerned. I think it was wrong. But the kids are here, and it can't be undone. I can only join the collective sighs of America as we all hope these innocents will be ok.

[TonFirst]

Very well put, Fairy. And if she *does* get her own TV show, please, please, let this:

"eight kids behind the eight ball"

be the name of the show.

[Ceepa]

Not necessarily. The embryos are usually frozen in batches. The reason the person I knew did 5 at once was because that was how many were frozen in one "tube". Once it's defrosted, you can't re-freeze.

I didn't know this.

[shawnandangel]

]I am not AT ALL in favor of the government saying how many children people are allowed to have, or forced sterilization of poor people, or anything like that[/B]. I have no problem with the Duggars, for example, (who have come under a lot more criticism than octo-mom,) because they are taking care of their children on their own, without government assistance, and they seem to be doing a good job. But there are a lot of mentally unbalanced people out there running around (or maybe I just see more where I live, lol!) And maybe there should be some incentives for people who clearly can't take care of the children they have, not to have any more. Instead of the reverse. I mean, CPS anywhere can tell you of crack mothers who have had 10 babies with 10 different men, all born with various problems, and all taken away from their mom due to neglect. Now what happens to those poor children? There was a guy in one town who offered crack moms $250 to get their tubes tied, and the line was out the door. It seems mercenary. But, it is their choice, and they are not creating any more emotionally/neurologically/physically impaired children who will likely become wards of the state, and a burden to taxpayers. I don't know what else can be done, except that the doctor who transferred those embryos should be facing medical malpractice, or at least disciplinary action by his profession.


Yes. I am not asking whether or not they could force her to reduce. What I mean is, when she first came in and said "Hey, you still have eight of my embryos in your freezer, and I want to be pregnant again!", could they have said "Well we won't implant any of them because you are a nut job."
I'm assuming the answer is yes...At any rate it's not really relevant. Sorry for babbling. :)



Taken to the furthest extreme, would the government begin sterilizing poor, irresponsible people after 2 kids? That is a very scary thing to think about.

Sterilization is not as "extreme" a thought as you would think. From 1927 to 1972 Sterilization was legal in the United States for people who were deaf, blind, criminals, homeless, mentally ill, or "feeble minded" ect. If you want to look up a truely disgusting part of US history look up Buck vs. Belle which is where the Supreme Court ruled that is was constitutional to sterilize.

In this case, the woman, Carrie Buck was raped and had the child. Because she had the child she was deemed to be "feeble minded". She was already in foster care because her mother was suspected to be a "feeble minded" prostitute.

Google the Lynchburg Colony in Virginia if you want to find out more. Hitler loosley based his sterilization program on the one we had in place in the United States. One doctor in Virginia claimed that "Hitler is beating us at our own game" because Hitler was sterilizing more than the USA. States actually competed to see who could sterilize the most people.

Being of the opinion that a woman should not be able to reproduce because you saw a news story in which the reader deemed her mentally unstable is a very dangerous and slippery slope that we have already been down. We need to be VERY careful about what laws we would introduce here. There were so many people sterilized in the USA because they were poor and the states paid doctors to label them "feeble minded". Being poor is not a crime and should not have impace on your ability to reproduce.

Yes there are many irresponsible people who abuse the system, but I would rather have that than have someone tell me I cannot have children because I do not make x amount of dollars.

This is very slippery like I said. Scientists have already found certain genes linked to some mental illnesses, like schitzophrenia. If my daughter has a mental illness should she not be able to reproduce because her children "might" get it? What about cancer? If you have the breast cancer gene or the ovarian cancer gene should you not be able to reproduce because you are just a burden on the state producing potentially sick offspring who will one day have to get very expensive medical treatment?

What makes me sick is that our school systems do not teach about things like this. How are we to learn from our past history if it is never taught to us?

[buddyleebaby]

[quote=shawnandangel;2295483]

Being of the opinion that a woman should not be able to reproduce because you saw a news story in which the reader deemed her mentally unstable is a very dangerous and slippery slope that we have already been down. We need to be VERY careful about what laws we would introduce here. There were so many people sterilized in the USA because they were poor and the states paid doctors to label them "feeble minded". Being poor is not a crime and should not have impace on your ability to reproduce.

Yes there are many irresponsible people who abuse the system, but I would rather have that than have someone tell me I cannot have children because I do not make x amount of dollars.

This is very slippery like I said. Scientists have already found certain genes linked to some mental illnesses, like schitzophrenia. If my daughter has a mental illness should she not be able to reproduce because her children "might" get it? What about cancer? If you have the breast cancer gene or the ovarian cancer gene should you not be able to reproduce because you are just a burden on the state producing potentially sick offspring who will one day have to get very expensive medical treatment?
quote]

I'm not sure why you are quoting me here.
I wanted to know if she had a legal right to her embryos regardless of what the Doctors thought of her mental status.
I didn't give my opinion on the matter either way.

[kijip]

What makes me sick is that our school systems do not teach about things like this. How are we to learn from our past history if it is never taught to us?

I am a product of public schools and we studied the history of and the ethics of eugenics in high school. I don't think this stuff is exactly concealed, but then again it was a magnet/advanced school and I am a history geek. :tongue5:

[purpleeyes]

Very well put, Fairy. And if she *does* get her own TV show, please, please, let this:

"eight kids behind the eight ball"

be the name of the show.

Fairy and Tonfirst:

:bighand:

[strollerqueen]

Sterilization is not as "extreme" a thought as you would think. From 1927 to 1972 Sterilization was legal in the United States for people who were deaf, blind, criminals, homeless, mentally ill, or "feeble minded" ect. If you want to look up a truely disgusting part of US history look up Buck vs. Belle which is where the Supreme Court ruled that is was constitutional to sterilize.

In this case, the woman, Carrie Buck was raped and had the child. Because she had the child she was deemed to be "feeble minded". She was already in foster care because her mother was suspected to be a "feeble minded" prostitute.

Google the Lynchburg Colony in Virginia if you want to find out more. Hitler loosley based his sterilization program on the one we had in place in the United States. One doctor in Virginia claimed that "Hitler is beating us at our own game" because Hitler was sterilizing more than the USA. States actually competed to see who could sterilize the most people.

Being of the opinion that a woman should not be able to reproduce because you saw a news story in which the reader deemed her mentally unstable is a very dangerous and slippery slope that we have already been down. We need to be VERY careful about what laws we would introduce here. There were so many people sterilized in the USA because they were poor and the states paid doctors to label them "feeble minded". Being poor is not a crime and should not have impace on your ability to reproduce.

Yes there are many irresponsible people who abuse the system, but I would rather have that than have someone tell me I cannot have children because I do not make x amount of dollars.

This is very slippery like I said. Scientists have already found certain genes linked to some mental illnesses, like schitzophrenia. If my daughter has a mental illness should she not be able to reproduce because her children "might" get it? What about cancer? If you have the breast cancer gene or the ovarian cancer gene should you not be able to reproduce because you are just a burden on the state producing potentially sick offspring who will one day have to get very expensive medical treatment?

What makes me sick is that our school systems do not teach about things like this. How are we to learn from our past history if it is never taught to us?

Yes, I know all that. And Planned Parenthood was also closely allied with eugenics in the beginning. Margaret Sanger was all for creating a superior race. And I loathe government intervention into any of it.

[kijip]

Angelina-

I don't think anyone has said they wish assistance was not available to the kids now that they are here or that they want her sterilized etc. In fact many people have said, like you, that there is no way to legislate a solution for this sort of thing because we can't/should not tell people how many kids they can have or who can have them as a matter of principal. Thinking this is flipping nuts is not at all the same as supporting in any way shape or form any step, however tiny, towards eugenics. This is my example about eugenics: My mother is the product of a very poor family and a very abusive, violent and criminal mother. One could have reasonably guessed when my grandmother had her first baby at 14, given her history of abuse and her situation and abusive husband, that it was going to end in tears. She had 3 kids before she was 18 and she actually killed one of them around the time my mother was born and was never punished by the law. The extent to which my mother suffered as a child is pretty much unimaginable to most of us, thank God. She lived with her mother until adulthood excepting brief stays in foster care. I have never thought it would be ok to preemptively or even punitively sterilize people like my grandmother but I have wished, while recognizing there was no good solution, a way to spare all children the childhood my mother had- one of physical and emotional abuse that left her physically and emotionally disabled as well as most deaf from the beatings she took about her head and ears. I am sure you understand that. Having that wish, that no child live like that in no way makes me a supporter of eugenics. Conversely, not supporting eugenics doesn't stop one from seeing a sad situation and wishing it did not have to have happened to begin with. I grew up poor to generally loving parents with good intentions and am the first person in my mother's family to graduate from high school and college. So I totally understand that a child does not take money and sometimes public assistance is needed (my parents received welfare benefits when I was a child, it it what fed me for many years of my life so that is one reason I tend to support the availability of such programs). But that also does not make me thrilled when people use the system recklessly either. I think it is at the very least natural to wonder wtf is up with something like this rather than say "8 babies at once?! Yay, good for her".

[strollerqueen]

Katie, your poor mother. I am so sorry. I wonder if your Grandmother was raised the same way.

[Fairy]

Yes, Katie, so sorry :grouphug:

[kijip]

I wonder if your Grandmother was raised the same way.

A-yup, you know it. I hated my grandmother till I met my great grandmother and when I started to hate her, it dawned on my that I am sure my great-great grandmother was no sweet peach either. Children learn what they live. My mother never got the chance to be what she might have been had she been adopted as an infant or whatnot, but she did accomplish the pretty remarkable task of breaking the cycle of abuse in her family...certainly my younger brother and I parent far different than my grandmother did, no doubt. :wink2: So while I don't support eugenics, I have to admit I can see the case for it even if I would never support legislation or court interference. ETA: Actually, there is still no love lost between me and my grandmother, even though I feel sympathy for how she was raised. I am only calling her my grandmother on this thread to make it clear who I mean- IRL I usually say "Edie" or "Mom's mom". She is a loon who has never changed and drives me bonkers to this day. Recently, she, as a born again protestant Christian called my mother, who is battling stage 4 cancer and recovering from heart surgery to tell her that she would not be saved in the rapture because my mother as a Catholic is not a christian and that it, the rapture, was coming soon. Soon as in before Obama would be inaugurated. So she told a woman who may die soon that she was going to hell. Niiiicceee. But my older aunt, a marginally reformed drug addict and former hooker, was going to heaven since she is not Catholic. ROTFLMAO. Needless to say, this woman does not even merit my Christmas card list (I don't want her knowing where I live if I can help it!) It is downright remarkable to watch the extent to which my adult, 55 year old mother is still in the grip of her abusive parent from 3000+ miles away.

[mommy111]

Wow, Katie, that is quite a remarkable story! I can only wonder at the strength of your mother who was able to break this cycle of abusive behavior!

[Fairy]

For those interested, Kate Gosselin has a blog on CNN today, which in my opinion, is not very helpful for the octomom, but whatever. For those interested, she'll be on Larry King tonight.

http://larrykinglive.blogs.cnn.com/2009/02/02/lkl-blog-exclusive-jon-kate-plus-8-commentary/

[ShanaMama]

The 'tragedy' is that these babies may not get the care they need, b/c of this woman's selfishness and/or mental health issues. The 'tragedy' is the autistic child who does not get the care/attention needs because of this woman's selfishness and/or mental health issues. I hardly think we're talking about disney vacations.
These babies didn't come out of nowhere, she CHOSE to implant 8 of them and yes, I have a problem with that-mostly with the medical establishment that let it happen.

Since when are the duggar's self-sufficient? TLC paid for that house, those groceries, that van, those washing machines... they get to prothlesize and free groceries! Score!

I know that I sound harsh, but I am sick and tired of people talking about the sanctity of human life of fetuses or newborns and totally forgetting the life of children who are already here.

Thanks, Beth and other posters for clarifying what is tragic about this situation. I am not naive- I realize that those children are in for a life of hard knocks. I agree that the mother set the situation up through her selfishness, mental illness or whatever it is.
Let me put it another way. My objection to the tone of the thread was as follows. If one of the babies doesn't make it I think it will be tragic. Yes, she set herself up for it, but it's still tragic. From what I've been reading in the media (and to a lesser extent here) if a baby dies the reaction will be we told you so, you asked for it. That would be tragic!
I am still struggling with this issue. I haven't figured it out quite yet. I agree with all the pp about the frustration of people abusing the welfare system. We don't always get to choose that our tax dollars go to causes we support or even worthy causes. I didn't get to vote on whether my $$ should have been used to bail out Wall Street, lol.
This has been a fascinating discussion which explored many viewpoints that I were new for me. I especially agree with the pp (sorry not going back to multi quote- nak) who asked if someone who carries the cancer gene shouldn't be allowed to reproduce. Interestingly, I think we all agree that trying to legislate to prevent abuses of the system opens up way too many issues of it's own.

[ShanaMama]

It is downright remarkable to watch the extent to which my adult, 55 year old mother is still in the grip of her abusive parent from 3000+ miles away.

This is what makes it so much more remarkable that your mother was able to break the chain of abuse.
Thank you for sharing your story, Katie. My heart goes out to your mother.

[Fairy]

I was not that thrilled with it. A few thoughts.

* Kate looked beautiful. Not that that's important, but ya know, whatev.

* Sanjay Gupta and the other male doctor were very interesting. I also thought the female OB who is on "The Doctors" were good guests and were very careful about not making definitive judgments since there are no real facts known about the IVF for absolute sure. They were informative and interesting.

* Kate was a good guest to have, and her statements were a mixed bag for me. Some of them seemed extraneous, but overall, she obviously did not approve one bit but also was leery to make a judgment in that we just don't really know for sure what exactly happened.

* Larry King looked like a buffoon. Sometimes he knows his content, but lately I find him to be nothing more than a talking head for the producer in his ear telling him what to say, what to ask. He got the number of babies wrong a few times, he said Kate had 3 sets of twins, which was completely wrong, and to Kate's credit, she did not freak out at the blatant error or interrupt him, she just corrected it when the chance organically presented itself. But the guy was completely out of his league, here, he didn't know a damned thing about his topic. It was embarrassing to watch. He needs to hang it up. Seriously.

* Larry brought up the Dionne Quints out of nowhere. Total non-sequitir.

* The Nigerian Octuplet family was on, and it was a fiasco. When the dad spoke, it was clear. But the mother's words could not be understood, and she was clearly not comfortable. The grandmother was asked questions, too, and she never even spoke up; a deer in the headlights. It was so embarrassing, and I felt terrible for the family.

* I thought a better use of guests would be to have one doctor, maybe two, and a panel of HOM parents, not just Kate.

* The graphics and crawls thru this part of the show said things like, "Octuplet Mom wants Millions?" Only they never once focused on this. At all. Not once. It was just out there to pour fuel onto the fire. It was a question, but that will be missed. It's not that I don't believe this to be true -- cuz my feeling is that she does -- but what was the point of that other than to infuriate and instigate angst and negativity toward her?

Overall, I thought this show served no real purpose. Not even any discourse that hadn't already been engaged in elsewhere. It's ok to talk for talking's sake, but this talkfest was pointless and not helpful. The graphic about the millions was irresponsible. I don't support this woman at all, I think she should have never done it or reduced (yes, aborted) down to one or two. But I also am not into flaying this woman in the media to the point of accusing her of wanting "millions," (cuz that question mark will be missed by most, as designed) before we actually really, truly DO know for 100% sure what exactly happened and what is actually driving her.

So, that's my take on Larry King last night.

[KrystalS]

Is there a video online of Kate on Larry King? I would like to watch but I missed it last night.

[Fairy]

Larry King reruns the previous night's show at least once during the day the next day. Check your Guide. However, I'm 100% sure clips are available on cnn.com.

[Globetrotter]

Our local news (or was it CNN?) reported that she wanted her own show (where she would be the child rearing expert) and that she wanted millions for the photos. They presented these as facts. If, indeed, that is correct, I feel very very sorry for these poor babies who got caught in this mess. The mother is clearly suffering from mental illness and an obsession with babies.

Are REs required to do some sort of assessment before going through with infertility? Surely the existing six kids and her repeat IVF history (without a father in sight) would raise some red flags!

I also see this as a tragedy because those children probably won't be well taken care of unless the state intervenes. Either way, it's just sad. It was irresponsible to knowingly bring them into the world (IVF requires a whole lot of planning!).

[pinkmomagain]

Just had to comment that, in general, Larry King is a complete BOOB and I don't know how he gets the guests he does. He is misinformed, doesn't know what he is talking about, cuts off guests, changes topics randomly and, all in all, is painful to watch.

[Momof3Labs]

REs aren't required to do a psychological assessment, nor should they judge how many children a family should have or whether there are two parents (or the gender of the parents). IMO, the RE was irresponsible for putting back 8 embryos, which is well outside their professional guidelines.

Shanamama, if one of the babies dies, it is indeed a tragedy for that child and for the other children in the family - the innocent victims. I don't think that anyone here is saying anything differently (at least not how I read the posts). But the mother and the RE who made the decision to chance such a high-order pregnancy are largely responsible for that tragedy and IMO that shouldn't be overlooked.