When redirection doesn't work--next step in discipline?

[HIU8]

DD is 19 months. She no longer responds to redirection when doing something that we deem not safe etc...She has become very defiant. Even when told not to do something (and she understands perfectly what we mean) she will go ahead and do it and glance at us several times to see how we are going to react. What is my next step in regards to discipline? We didn't go through this with DS at this age (he was 3 when he started blatantly disregarding us and discipline/punishment was more cut and dry with him than with DD). With DS time out worked from about age 3 to age 4 (it no longer works for DS--we have moved on to where he sets his own consequences). Should we start time out with DD now? Any other suggestions?

[brittone2]

nak w/ squirmy toddler-
I love the advice at gentlechristianmothers.com (even though I"m not a conservative Christian). Their gentle discipline board rocks.

My advice would be to get up and make sure you are following through. Tell her what you want her to do vs. *not* do (kids have a difficult time at that age understanding "don't do X"...sometimes if you say "let's do Y" it is easier for them to understand).

Also at that age, they don't have impulse control. Even if she understands you, it doesn't mean she can stop herself. They just aren't there yet developmentally, and you can't make that happen. What you can do is help her control those impulses. So if she continues doing what you said not to do, you just swoop in (doesn't have to be punitive) and move her, stop her, whatever it takes to redirect her. IMO you can try any number of other discipline strategies from time out to whatever else, but honestly, you can't make them have impulse control if it isn't there yet...kwim? It will just require tons of repetition anyway, no matter what strategy you use...there's no instant fix. She may hear and understand, but it doesn't mean she can stop herself. So you get up and help her stop. And then if there's some way you can structure the environment to eliminate the issue (put certain things away if you don't want her touching them for example), then I'd do that. It is hard to be more specific without knowing exactly what she's continuing to do that you have a problem with right now.

I think the biggest thing is to show them that your words have meaning. It is a PITB initially but long term it really helps.

I think thinking of her as defying you will just make you both frustrated. She's behaving in an age appropriate way and most likely just hasn't matured enough to be able to stop herself yet.

eta: also as they approach age 2, we have found it works pretty well to say "you need to X. Do you want to do it by yourself or with my help?" I then help them if needed. Not punitively, but I help them do what needs to be done.

[maylips]

While we called it a "time out" it was really more of a physical redirection - we would pick her up and take her to her crib where she sat for 30 seconds or so. That seemed to work some in terms of her giving up on that particular dangerous thing. At least for a few months!

I like that Gentle Christian Mothers site but it is a PITA to dig through their message boards. Their signatures are like books!

[HIU8]

It's not so much defying. It's just that she is beginning to test her boundries almost. We put things up high so she can't get to them--so she climbs up furniture to get them. She wants to write with crayons on the floor, so I move the bag of crayons out of her reach. Our biggest issue right now is that she loves to take out all her diapers and throw them all over her room. In addition, she does this with her towels and washclothes. She has started opening up her closet and pulling clothes off hangers and throwing them around the room as well. We moved the diapers. The closet, we may have to put a lock on (although I hate to do that). The towels and washclothes we haven't moved yet. I usually find her in her room (she has figured out how to open the door from the hallway) with all this stuff around her. She has been willingly helping me clean up, so I guess I can't complain to much. We have those knob covers on the doors,but not on the outside of her door b/c the door is hung wrong and gets stuck, so neither DH or I can open with with that plastic cover on the knob. She has figured out how to use her shoulder to push open the door already.

Normally we have been telling her that this is wrong or that is wrong, or come on over here and play with this toy instead. Lately she runs around saying "no", so I do sad face and cry and she comes over to comfort me (sometimes) then I can redirect her. I just wasn't sure when to start Time out, or if it even works on a child that young.

[brittone2]

Well, even if you believe in time out, she's still young for that (most people say a minimum of 2). I honestly don't think most 2 year olds sit in time out and reflect on what they did or didn't do.

Taking the stuff out of drawers/closets in her room-I'd just get cabinet locks, drawer locks, closet lock, etc. and/or not leave her unattended in her room. I really don't think there's anything else that will be all that effective w/ a child her age. JMO.

[elektra]

That sounds so frustrating. My 22 mo daughter would do the same thing if I left her alone at all. So I basically have to have my eyes on her ALL THE TIME. She is a climber, a thrower, a get-into-everything-er! There are a few cabinets that don't have locks in the kitchen (dishtowels and plasticware), and I repeatedly just have to put the stuff back in that she takes out.
And I know the exact look you are talking about. The one that is mischevious and says, "I understand completely what you just told me not to do and I am going to look you right in the eye and do it anyway".
We have not done timeouts yet either though.
I posted a similar post to yours about 2 weeks ago, where I was basically feeling like a fool for using gentle discipline and redirection because it just wasn't working and that "look" was just making me feel completely taken advantage of!
My big issue was throwing food on the floor. And I finally resorted to what is essentially a threat, and it seems to be working! I don't threaten in anger, but I just explain that we have to end the meal if she throws the food again. I never threatened to do this prior to my post asking for help, but I once I was willing to follow through on it, she is throwing MUCH less food and we are seeing progress.
So I don't have a ton of advice, mostly commiseration. However, the "gentle" threats seem to be working for us. If it's food, toys, whatever, I just tell her that if she does whatever I don't want her to again, we will do something else. And I often have to physically pick her up and move her elsewhere. So I guess it is a timeout in a way, but there is no anger in my voice and then I don't leave her alone when we move.

One thing that is keeping me on my course- both DD and my niece (26 mo) got baby dolls recently. As soon as DN opened hers, she gave it a spanking and put it in its "naughty chair". I have never seen BIL and SIL spank her, but they do use a timeouts (telling her to go to her "naughty chair". The whole scene was just sad IMO.
My DD got her baby, and gave her a kiss. It just made me feel like I was on the right track.

[HIU8]

When I say that DD does these things, she is alone for around 20 seconds. She comes upstairs with me and goes into her room. I go across the hall into another room to put something away (and can see her in her room the whole time) and she does this. FWIW, ALL of her furniture is bolted to studs in the wall (as is DS's and a tall dresser in my room). DD doesn't get left alone anywhere in the house for longer than that. Having said that though, we have used some gentle discipline with her (at least from what you are describing that is what we are doing). DD no longer throws food on the floor during a meal. She stopped b/c we would say "oh, I see you are done with dinner" and proceed to take her out of her seat. If she was done, she would just let us clean her up. If she wasn't done she would "not done" and go back to eating (we of course would say "no throwing food" at that point). She is now pushing herself away from the table, so we ask her if she is done. She says no and we say please don't push your chair away from the table if you still want to eat. It's been a few days of doing this. After a couple of weeks she should get it.

We also remove her from a situation and go to another room. She does not like that and lets us know loudly. What gets me is that most of the time she is challenging DS to do something like drive his toy cars on the walls or use crayons on the floor (you would think this would be the other way around...).

I think I've just reached a frustration point with the more destructive behaviors she is exhibiting.

[brittone2]

When I say that DD does these things, she is alone for around 20 seconds. She comes upstairs with me and goes into her room. I go across the hall into another room to put something away (and can see her in her room the whole time) and she does this. FWIW, ALL of her furniture is bolted to studs in the wall (as is DS's and a tall dresser in my room). DD doesn't get left alone anywhere in the house for longer than that. Having said that though, we have used some gentle discipline with her (at least from what you are describing that is what we are doing). DD no longer throws food on the floor during a meal. She stopped b/c we would say "oh, I see you are done with dinner" and proceed to take her out of her seat. If she was done, she would just let us clean her up. If she wasn't done she would "not done" and go back to eating (we of course would say "no throwing food" at that point). She is now pushing herself away from the table, so we ask her if she is done. She says no and we say please don't push your chair away from the table if you still want to eat. It's been a few days of doing this. After a couple of weeks she should get it.

We also remove her from a situation and go to another room. She does not like that and lets us know loudly. What gets me is that most of the time she is challenging DS to do something like drive his toy cars on the walls or use crayons on the floor (you would think this would be the other way around...).

I think I've just reached a frustration point with the more destructive behaviors she is exhibiting.

With what you describe, I honestly don't think there is going to be any quick acting solution. I would just do as much as possible to prevent her from ripping everything out of drawers, closets, etc. as that will probably be the easiest thing on both of you. Buy a doorknob lock or have locks on her drawers, etc. If she does get into it, I think having her help cleanup is the best solution. Or leave her one drawer as "her" drawer and don't lock it, and only put 5-6 things or whatever is manageable for her to cleanup.

With a 19 month old I just don't think timeout would be any more effective (JMO). I'd go with prevention wherever possible and save both of you the headache of cleaning up a mess. It still comes back to a lack of impulse control at that age.
eta: if you go across the hall to put stuff away, maybe have her help carry 1-2 items to "help" you if she'll do that.

[o_mom]

In addition to the advice from the PPs, I would try to honor her impulses. If she is finding it fun to pull a bunch of cloth things out of a drawer or basket, find a way that she *can* do that - basket of playsilks, one drawer with a bunch of old burpcloths. For drawing - try to have supervised coloring time everyday. It doesn't have to be complete attention, I find that DS3 can color on a page I have taped down while I am getting dinner ready. Taping to a cookie sheet or plastic tray can help them keep from running off the edge of the paper and onto the table as well.

Having these available gives you a ready alternative to say "Yes, you can do that - just do it over here/with these."

[HIU8]

good idea. Thanks.

[ljackson]

FWIW I started using time-outs at about 19 months and found it very effective. I only ever use it if I am telling DD either to stop doing something ("stop emptying your puzzles over the floor") or to do something ("come upstairs now") and she won't do it. I have only had to do it about 5 times in 6 months because just the threat of it is enough to get her to cooperate. (I appreciate that my DD may not be typical in this!) I never use it if I come into the room to discover that she has done something I didn't want her to do, as I think she is too young to really get it.

[squimp]

Time outs worked for us at that age as well. But we only used them for hitting.

I love the ideas about honoring her impulses.

[hillview]

DS #2 is about a month and a half younger. We let him do things like take all the diapers out of a basket. He enjoys it. We have put up the things we aren't so happy about him tossing around. At this age I think it is pretty hard to manage this sort of behavior. I look to keep him safe and in an area where he cannot do as much damage. And I pick up a lot. A LOT. SIGH.

/hillary