How long do you punish...

[BillK]

a 4 year old for scratching his 20mo. old brother on his face (under the eye along the side of nose, straight down about 4 inches to just above his upper lip) - with his finger nail? I'm talking a big wide - about 1/8 inch wide - bright red, broken skin gouge down the inside part of the little guy's cheek.

Today - Zach did just that to Ben (luckily I was at work when it happened 'cos I'm not sure how I'd have reacted). Anyway - Zach shows zero remorse and just doesn't seem to "get" just how big of a deal this is. We never have hit/spanked our kids - and have always tried to drill into Zach's head that we don't hit and we keep our hands to ourselves.

My wife banished him to his room for most of the afternoon - but I just can't help being angry, frustrated and fed up with Zach's behavior toward Ben. It's been damn near a year since Ben came home - you'd think Zach would be over it already - but apparently he's not. In fact - after his nap today - my wife let him come back downstairs and within about 30 minutes he had slapped Ben across the face and ended up back upstairs in his room.

Here it is 6:15pm and I just want to put Zach in his room for the night I'm so angry with him. So just how long do you punish a kid for something like this.

Frustratedly yours,

[mommy111]

Bill, first, send Zach to bed and have a drink with your wife. Seriously :)
Kids will be kids. Zach needs to be taught that this is not OK, but also he's 4 and feels de-throned.
I would have a conversation with him. Zach, you hurt Ben and Ben is very sad. Mom and Dad are very sad too. We trust you and hope that you will be kind to Ben because you're his older brother and you're supposed to protect him. We don't expect you to ever do this again because it made Mommy so sad she's not even coming out of her room and doesn't really want to talk to anyone.
But we also want you to know that we love you very much, both me and mommy, and Ben can never take your place in our heart.
And give Zach a hug.
Cuz much as you're hurting and angry, I bet he's feeling pretty terrible too and putting on a brave face.
This, too, will pass and you will laugh at this 20 years from now when the brothers are attending each others' college graduations.

[egoldber]

Exactly what she said. :yeahthat:

Sarah is not over Amy being born yet either and she's 7.5. Sibling rivalry comes in waves, sometimes it's better and sometimes, well, it's not. I am NOT saying that it's acceptable, but it happens and it is normal and natural.

[tmonroe]

Bill, first, send Zach to bed and have a drink with your wife. Seriously :)
Kids will be kids. Zach needs to be taught that this is not OK, but also he's 4 and feels de-throned.
I would have a conversation with him. Zach, you hurt Ben and Ben is very sad. Mom and Dad are very sad too. We trust you and hope that you will be kind to Ben because you're his older brother and you're supposed to protect him. We don't expect you to ever do this again because it made Mommy so sad she's not even coming out of her room and doesn't really want to talk to anyone.
But we also want you to know that we love you very much, both me and mommy, and Ben can never take your place in our heart.
And give Zach a hug.
Cuz much as you're hurting and angry, I bet he's feeling pretty terrible too and putting on a brave face.This, too, will pass and you will laugh at this 20 years from now when the brothers are attending each others' college graduations.


I have to disagree with you here. I don't believe he should be hugged for scratching his brother so badly and then slapping him in the face. Zach needs to be sent the message that his behavior has consequences. Of course because he's 4 you have to figure out what that means but that scratch has me hurting for Ben. Kids in this day and age do whatever they want and then their parents pacify him (i.e. poor Zach when Ben is the one with a scratched face). Sometimes kids have to learn to suck certain things up. Zach is 4 not
2. Of course he's jealous but this hitting thing can get worse. I wonder if a pediatrician would have any thoughts.

[almostamom]

It's been 41 years and my sister is not over *me* being born yet!

I think your wife handled the slap perfectly - back to the room. You've got to be consistent every single time. If going to his room for a break is the consequence, you've got to follow through and you're doing that. I understand the frustration though and wanting to know why it's happening. I only have one child and I tend to be the victim of his aggression. The "why" drives me crazy at times. We reiterate that hitting/pinching/scratching is never acceptable. Generally I leave DS in his room until he's calm, stops crying, and can apologize so his time there varies. The apology is what usually takes the longest. We also don't keep toys in DS' room, so he doesn't have a whole lot of fun while he's in there.

Hang in there.

Linda

[egoldber]

I don't believe he should be hugged for scratching his brother so badly

He shouldn't be hugged for scratching his brother, he should be hugged because his parents love him and WILL ALWAYS love him, even when he does something wrong.

He's already been punished. Why should affection be withheld as well?

[Mommy Of A Little Angel]

He shouldn't be hugged for scratching his brother, he should be hugged because his parents love him and WILL ALWAYS love him, even when he does something wrong.

He's already been punished. Why should affection be withheld as well?


ITA! The hugging is for reassurance. Completely necessary at the end of any punishment in my opinion. It lets him know he did something that you didn't like, but you will always love him.

[tmonroe]

He shouldn't be hugged for scratching his brother, he should be hugged because his parents love him and WILL ALWAYS love him, even when he does something wrong.

He's already been punished. Why should affection be withheld as well?


What he did has nothing to do with his parents loving him IMO. The message has to be made to him that what he did was wrong and there are repurccusions (sp) for his actions. I'm not saying never hug him but after scratching and slapping his brother hugging him sends a wrong message. Just my opinion :)

ETA: Ben needs assurance that his big brother isn't going to scratch and slap him in the face.

[MamaMolly]

Bill, first, send Zach to bed and have a drink with your wife. Seriously :)
Kids will be kids. Zach needs to be taught that this is not OK, but also he's 4 and feels de-throned.
I would have a conversation with him. Zach, you hurt Ben and Ben is very sad. Mom and Dad are very sad too. We trust you and hope that you will be kind to Ben because you're his older brother and you're supposed to protect him. We don't expect you to ever do this again because it made Mommy so sad she's not even coming out of her room and doesn't really want to talk to anyone.
But we also want you to know that we love you very much, both me and mommy, and Ben can never take your place in our heart.
And give Zach a hug.
Cuz much as you're hurting and angry, I bet he's feeling pretty terrible too and putting on a brave face.
This, too, will pass and you will laugh at this 20 years from now when the brothers are attending each others' college graduations.

Well said. And might I add (as a little sister) that Ben will learn to hit back soon enough and that will knock some sense into Zach. ;)

[o_mom]

Kids that age are not always able to show or feel empathy. We went through this and still do to some extent with DS1. He just isn't one of those kids that naturally understands that someone else is hurting. Kids develop empathy at very different rates. It is not something you can really teach, they just have to develop it. You can't teach it any more than you taught them to crawl or walk. You can help it along a bit, but mainly what it takes it time.

I think the punishment he has had is plenty. At four years old much beyond a few hours is not going to be connected at all. Showing or not showing remorse is not a measure of how effective your parenting or punishment is, either. You cannot make him feel sorry for what he did. You have to be consistent and point out the consequences of his actions - that his brother is hurt - and trust that he is hearing it no matter what he shows on the outside.

I also want to say that we find that when we get into a downward spiral of bad behaviors, the thing that helps most is to reconnect with that child. Spend some one on one time with them, do things with them. It is hard at times because usually the last thing you want to do is spend time with a child that is being a pain. The thing is that when they are at their worst is when they need to know you love them the most.

[brittone2]

I also think a hug is not inappropriate. One of the most powerful messages we can send as parents is that we still love our children even through their toughest, most challenging times. I think in terms of sibling relationships it goes a long way in feeling secure/loved and not replaced by or loved less than the younger child.

We usually separate both kids and let everyone calm down. DS usually gets more upset with himself in the end. We give everyone a break from one another, and then ask the child that hit/bit, etc. whether it would help t heir heart to offer an apology. 98% of the time ours are willing to do that (it may take longer on some days. We still don't force the apology. We ask the hurt one if they are willing to accept the apology. They usually end up hugging and kissing (DS is almost 5, DD just turned 2). Some days it takes longer for everyone to calm down and get to that point, but they usually get there. I know that won't work for everyone but that's what we have found works for us.

We also talk about "what could you have done instead?" and brainstorm ideas (give yourself some space from your sibling, asked mommy or daddy for help with brother/sister, etc). I will say my newly 2 year old gives her brother a run for his money and he usually lashes out only after she's pinched him several times in a row or something like that.

Scratching isn't okay, but some of the sibling rivalry books also point out punishing in a very punitive form can really just fan the flames of rivalry even more. (while they are in time out or whatever they may feel like it is an injustice and think about how they will get back at their sibling or not get caught the next time, for example.) I think modeling ways to work things out after a conflict or working on ways to prevent it in the first place is more effective in the long run.

I'd also make sure the older child knows they can feel safe talking about how their life has changed with the arrival of the sibling. Some of the books, etc. say it is good to let them know it is okay to say that they don't always like their sibling or their sibling's actions.

[o_mom]

What he did has nothing to do with his parents loving him IMO. The message has to be made to him that what he did was wrong and there are repurccusions (sp) for his actions. I'm not saying never hug him but after scratching and slapping his brother hugging him sends a wrong message. Just my opinion :)

ETA: Ben needs assurance that his big brother isn't going to scratch and slap him in the face.


The consequences of his actions are that his brother was hurt. They have shown him this. More punishment and withholding love is not going to do anything but make him resent his brother even more.

[KBecks]

I believe in hugs and reconciliation after a punishment. You decide what the consequence is, and after "time is served", then you reconcile and move on. SuperNanny is good at this. After a time out and apology, there is always a hug and kiss.

You don't want your oldest to think you are against him or taking sides.

[brittone2]

Kids that age are not always able to show or feel empathy. We went through this and still do to some extent with DS1. He just isn't one of those kids that naturally understands that someone else is hurting. Kids develop empathy at very different rates. It is not something you can really teach, they just have to develop it. You can't teach it any more than you taught them to crawl or walk. You can help it along a bit, but mainly what it takes it time.

I think the punishment he has had is plenty. At four years old much beyond a few hours is not going to be connected at all. Showing or not showing remorse is not a measure of how effective your parenting or punishment is, either. You cannot make him feel sorry for what he did. You have to be consistent and point out the consequences of his actions - that his brother is hurt - and trust that he is hearing it no matter what he shows on the outside.

I also want to say that we find that when we get into a downward spiral of bad behaviors, the thing that helps most is to reconnect with that child. Spend some one on one time with them, do things with them. It is hard at times because usually the last thing you want to do is spend time with a child that is being a pain. The thing is that when they are at their worst is when they need to know you love them the most.
x-posted, but I agree 100 percent with this.

Particularly choosing to connect vs. disconnect w/ your child. When they aren't acting all that great, sometimes they aren't feeling all that great inside. There are some great posts over at the GCM site about the whole idea of "filling up their cup" and making sure you tank them up with love when you start seeing a spiral of behavior. I know for us, that has often been the case...when we reconnect...lots of time, attention, (whatever the love language is for your DC), usually things improve.

[niccig]

We also talk about "what could you have done instead?" and brainstorm ideas (give yourself some space from your sibling, asked mommy or daddy for help with brother/sister, etc).


I have an only, but this is a big part of our discipline with DS. He gets in trouble for what he has done, and we spend time working out better ways to deal with situations. We even role model what to do. Discipline is about teaching them how to behave, so I think brainstorming better ways is part of that. I also don't give DS the options. He has to tell me why he got a time out (I hit, kick etc) and I tell him why that is inappropriate and I ask him what else he could have done. At 4yo he knows how he should behave, but can't do it every single time.

I would also agree with Beth's comment about her 2yo pushing her DS to his breaking point. I don't know if Ben did anything, he may not have. But I do recall my younger sister taunting me and I would finally crack and yell or hit or scratch, and I would get into trouble and she never did. I'm just mentioning this, so you can keep an eye on both the kids and see if there is something going on that is pushing Zach's buttons.

[o_mom]

I would also agree with Beth's comment about her 2yo pushing her DS to his breaking point. I don't know if Ben did anything, he may not have. But I do recall my younger sister taunting me and I would finally crack and yell or hit or scratch, and I would get into trouble and she never did. I'm just mentioning this, so you can keep an eye on both the kids and see if there is something going on that is pushing Zach's buttons.

We get this as well. DS3 is only 20 months, but boy does he know how to push the buttons! Of course, he learned it all from his older brothers and they are finding that it's not so fun on the other end.

[SnuggleBuggles]

He shouldn't be hugged for scratching his brother, he should be hugged because his parents love him and WILL ALWAYS love him, even when he does something wrong.

He's already been punished. Why should affection be withheld as well?

ITA! I probably wouldn't hug him right then and there but I certainly wouldn't end the day without a big hug and a reminder that we love him no matter what. We could tell him we don't approve of his behavior and that it needs to change but that is a different matter than loving your child and supporting them even when they are in the wrong.

Beth

[tmonroe]

The consequences of his actions are that his brother was hurt. They have shown him this. More punishment and withholding love is not going to do anything but make him resent his brother even more.


I never said withhold love. You either misread what I wrote or just don't understand what I wrote. In any event, different strokes for different folks :)

[o_mom]

I never said withhold love. You either misread what I wrote or just don't understand what I wrote. In any event, different strokes for different folks :)


Ok - change that to "withhold affection" - they are one and the same to a four year old.

You suggested that he not be hugged at all in discussing the incident. I'm not sure how that is not withholding affection as a punishment.

[boolady]

Ok - change that to "withhold affection" - they are one and the same to a four year old.

You suggested that he not be hugged at all in discussing the incident. I'm not sure how that is not withholding affection as a punishment.

Yeah, that. And isn't the point here largely, as brittone2 noted above (since I don't know how to quote two people) that the origin of the issue here is sibling rivalry? So, take a kid who for whatever reason is having sibling issues withhold affection....Sorry, I don't understand how that's going to acheive any type of positive outcome.

[marit]

"It's been damn near a year since Ben came home - you'd think Zach would be over it already - but apparently he's not. "

I remember I asked the same question when my son (now 3.5 years old) was 1 year old. The reply I got was: Never. My now 6 year old daughter still has jealousy issues although she finds other ways to display it.

I was once very very angry at her, like you're describing your feelings, when I found out she stole something and lied. My only advice is calm down and let go of the anger before you deal with your son. If you talk to him when you're angry you'll end up giving him a message you don't want to give him.

Good luck!

[fivi2]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but I really liked the book:
Siblings without Rivalry. I have twins, so my issues are a little different, but I thought it was fantastic.

Also wanted to add, that I always hug my girls at the end of a punishment/discipline/whatever session. I tell them I love them, but that X is not acceptable. (they are 3). I do force an apology and usually a hug. Once the time out time is up, they can come out when they say sorry and hug their sister.

[brittone2]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but I really liked the book:
Siblings without Rivalry.

Yes, that's a great book! I need to re-read LOL.

[o_mom]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but I really liked the book:
Siblings without Rivalry. I have twins, so my issues are a little different, but I thought it was fantastic.

Also wanted to add, that I always hug my girls at the end of a punishment/discipline/whatever session. I tell them I love them, but that X is not acceptable. (they are 3). I do force an apology and usually a hug. Once the time out time is up, they can come out when they say sorry and hug their sister.


Another good one is "Mom, Jason's Breathing on Me!"

I read several books on siblings (these two included) and they all came down to the fact that sibling relationships are different than other relationships and you cannot always apply the same rules that you would with a playdate.

[maestramommy]

My former pastor told me that her ds was very put out when her dd was born (4-5 years apart). He's 15 now, and still has bouts of "why did you have to have her??" Part of it might be his personality though. I don't know him terribly well. But both kids strike me as being quite sensitive.

[brittone2]

Along the same lines as several PPs, I've read in a few places that sometimes sibling rivalry (at its worst) can be delayed a few months or whatever as the older child sometimes starts to realize the new addition to the family is going to be a permanent fixture. The novelty of the new sib wears off ;)

I know for us we had an initial adjustment that wasn't too difficult, but then we had upticks in rivalry as DD became mobile with crawling, and then as she started walking. And again when she started "playing" more as she wanted what DS was playing with more and more. Right now they are in an overall fairly congenial phase with one another at almost 5 and newly 2, but who knows what next week will bring ;)

[hillview]

Also my child psych said as younger ones get older the older one realizes that they can SUDDENLY do things that aren't just "baby" things. Which can cause more issues.
/hillary