Why not American?

[HGraceMom]

I've been totally annoyed by all of the new car threads in the lounge these days - Lots of people asking for suggestions, and lots of suggestions being offered for Honda, Toyota, and Subaru, VW, Accura & the like - NEVER for Ford, GM or even Chrysler. WHY???!!!

Granted, the US carmakers had a period of poor quality, almost 30 YEARS ago, but now are right up there with the Japanese imports - DH & I both drive American cars and have NEVER had a recall, warranty issue, or random rattles that happened in the 1980s. US Carmakers have made HUGE strides in fuel efficiency and while can't match a Prius, can beat an Accord in many cases. If you're looking for fuel efficiency, you're not buying an Explorer OR a Pilot anyway!

If the US autos go down, I cringe to see the unemployment numbers - It's not just the "union" members (we're not employed by any auto company, supplier, or other, though do live in Michigan) but the engineers, CAD/CAM guys, Auto Dealers, Accountants, Analysts, truck drivers, janitors, etc at the Big 3 AND at the thousands of suppliers across the country... that are going to be hit.

Obama asks us to look for change, and there are cries everywhere for better trade agreements - why not start that change by looking in our own back yards for great vehicles?!

That's my rant for the day...

[SnuggleBuggles]

Lots of the foreign cars (Honda, Toyota...) are made in the US. Not 100% of their parts but a sizable portion of them and they are assembled in plants in the US. I don't know, the top cars in Consumer Reports (with the exception of a few scattered in Fords and other US companies) are always Hondas, Toyotas, Mazdas...and I tend to go with their picks on cars. Just explaining my reasoning for picking those cars instead. I didn't mean to intrude on your b*tch- you are certainly entitled to being annoyed.

Beth

[AngelaS]

Until we bought our Sienna, we had always been American car owners. DH didn't want an import but the features on the Town and Country didn't even come close to the ones we got on the Sienna. We love it.

Yes, I'm all for buying American and truly prefer to do that, but with this purchase--I'm totally glad we bought a Toyota.

[Clarity]

We drive American because my father works at GM. However, I'd like to point out that many, many "foreign" cars are made in America. Many GM cars are made in Mexico. It's a fine line as to what exactly makes a car "American" these days.
I'd also like to add that if my father didn't work at GM, I'd be happily purchasing a Subaru or Toyota. I think that for the money, the quality is better, the amenties are better, the gas milage is better and the aesthetic is better in some of the foreign cars. GM has built some of the most unattractive vehicles on the road (Chevy Uplander, anyone?) All sad, but true, IMHO.

[salsah]

we are selfish. the majority of people make purchasing decisions based on the product (and how we as the user will benefit from it) and not who benefits from (or who gets hurt by) the transaction. yes, that is a generalization. there are certain cases where people support certain companies or boycott others regardless of the product. however for most people, buying a car is a significant purchase (even a financial burden). so people have to look at other factors such as quality, safety, resale value, even the environment. it may or may not be true that foreign cars are better designed, better built, last longer, or have higher resale values. but as long as that perception is there, the demand for foreign cars will be stronger than that for american cars.
i agree with you that it would be nice if we could all support the american car makers, but some of us don't have the means and others of us don't care. like the ceo's of the american car companies who have company funded private jets. if they really cared, as much as you do, they would give up their private jets and fly economy.

[californiagirl]

Toyota and Honda have plants in Ohio. The US automakers? They moved.

[vludmilla]

We buy Honda and Toyota cars because of their superior reliability and resale value. I know that American company cars have improved in reliability but the resale value still lags behind H and T. I also don't really buy into the whole buy American to be patriotic thing. I have had wonderful experiences with my H & T's. I sold an Acura Integra with almost 300k for $1100 to a young guy. I also sold an Accord with 270k for about $1500. As much as American cars have improved, I don't think they can beat that track record.

[Cam&Clay]

DH and I buy foreign because our experiences with American cars have been horrible. We are happy Hyundai and BMW owners now. Soon, I'm going to want a minivan. Having previously owned a Dodge Caravan, I can guarantee you I won't own another one. It will most likely be a Toyota or Honda, but the Hyundai one is looking interesting.

DH says he will buy American when they can deliver what foreign cars can.

[Fairy]

Toyota and Honda have plants in Ohio. The US automakers? They moved.

Right.

Also, I'll just pipe in that my parents' 1989 Mitsubishi Gallant is still alive and well and has only needed maybe two major repairs not due to wear and tear. And they just yesterday donated their 1991 Mitsubishi Montero to charity after being the family workhorse for years and years and years. The gas line finally went, so that was one repair too many, and they finally donated him. I wish I could say the same for my Jeep Cherokee, which is a 2000 and in for one thing after another every other month. Yeah, that's technically Daimler Chrysler now, but whatever.

[sste]

I too have been burned by an American auto. Sure, they *may* have improved but I work too hard to risk 20 to 30 THOUSAND dollars of my hard-earned money on a car that does not have a long-term track record. We expect to drive our cars for 12-15 years and I don't think I can count on that with the american manufacturers.

Also, I personally know some (older) people that have absolutely ridiculous retirement compensation packages from american auto manufacturers. It is one thing to help the union worker with a young family, it is another thing to be funding someone's second home in Florida!

[egoldber]

Having previously owned a Dodge Caravan, I can guarantee you I won't own another one.

I own one now and love it. :) I plan to drive it into the ground, so re-sale doesn't particularly concern me.


It is one thing to help the union worker with a young family, it is another thing to be funding someone's second home in Florida!

For every ONE auto employee with a package like that, there are 20 in Flint living in poverty who can't sell their house because it isn't worth $10,000.

But I do agree it isn't so easy to say "buy American" when any car now is a mix of parts and assembly could be almost anywhere.

[KrisM]

I live in SE Detroit. My dad works at Ford. My grandfather retired from GM. My grandmother retired from AMC, now Chrysler. My DH works for a Tier 1 supplier, as does my brother. I can count at least 50 people at each of Chrysler, Ford, GM and another 50 at suppliers that I know personally. So, we are auto people :).

I, and my family, have always owned cars made by the US automakers. The quality has greatly improved over the years. Features are also there, on a lot of vehicles.

I will continue to buy American, if I possibly can. But, at this point, a lot of that decision is made because it helps my local economy. Michigan currently has the highest unemployment rate in the country. If I can keep my husband or neighbor in a job, I will. Plus, the US cars are cheaper to me, since I have discounts on them all.

If I didn't live here, I am not sure I'd feel that way American. My husbands company customer base is about 30% US and the rest is European or Asian. It's such a global marketplace these days that it makes it hard to decide what is American and what is not. Most of the engineering on US cars is done in the US, but companies like Hyundai have a Tech Center in SE Michigan, too.

There are many "foreign" vehicles with more US content in them than US vehicles. What percentage makes it "American"? What if I buy a PT Cruiser (Chysler) that is made in Mexico? Does that count? If so, why not a Honda made in Ohio? A 2008 Honda Civic has 70% of parts made in the US or Canada, but the Dodge Ram only has 68%. Which is more "American"?

I think it's too hard these days to determine what is American and what is not, in the automotive marketplace. For me, it's easy - I want to buy cars to help my local economy, which includes a lot of engineers at Chrysler, GM, and Ford and their suppliers. This means buy a US branded car. But, if I lived in Marysville, OH, I might be buying a Honda made there to help my local workers instead.

ETA: What about companies like Mazda? Ford owns a huge stake in Mazda. My mom drives a Mazda that she bought with the employee pricing from my dad's plan at Ford. I completely consider her to be driving an American product.

[bluestarfish18]

I didn't want to bring this up in prior threads about the auto bailout. One of my best friends' dad is Alan Mullaly, the CEO of Ford. And although I support American products 100%, we've always been disappointed with American made vehicles, from Fords to GMCs. My family is heavily into the fuel, truck and auto industry for the past 60 years, and yes, many American-named vehicles are sadly no longer made in the US, while most foreign-named (but sold in America) vehicles are now made in the US, or at least assembled here.

It just seems that America in general is looking for the best bargain on everything (me included most of the time). Autos are included. Take Southwest Airlines for example. Nobody wants to pay a lot of money for a flight, which is understandable. But on the other hand, SW has a history of treating its customers poorly. Other airlines must compete with SW, causing them to lower their rates, and in the duration, lower their amenities to keep paying for their employees. So now, almost every airline treats it customers like cattle. A recent trip I took on Delta cost me over $1200 for 1 seat, and I was treated like a teenager.

Wrapping it up, I'm willing to pay a little more $ for better quality. That doesn't mean I'm gonna go out and buy a Gucci diaper bag just because it's more expensive and "should last longer, right?". But I'm willing to buy a foreign-named, American-made vehicle because they have a history of great quality. My last Toyota Camry lasted 11 years without a single problem. And as I recall, didn't Ford have a little roll-over and explosion fiasco a few years back...that's why we called ours the "Exploder".

[dcmom2b3]

There are many "foreign" vehicles with more US content in them than US vehicles. What percentage makes it "American"? What if I buy a PT Cruiser (Chysler) that is made in Mexico? Does that count? If so, why not a Honda made in Ohio? A 2008 Honda Civic has 70% of parts made in the US or Canada, but the Dodge Ram only has 68%. Which is more "American"?

I think it's too hard these days to determine what is American and what is not, in the automotive marketplace. For me, it's easy - I want to buy cars to help my local economy, which includes a lot of engineers at Chrysler, GM, and Ford and their suppliers. This means buy a US branded car. But, if I lived in Marysville, OH, I might be buying a Honda made there to help my local workers instead.

And if you were in Spartanburg, SC, perhaps a BMW Z4 or X series; in northern Mississippi, a Mitsubishi (or is it Mazda? I can't remember). I'm sure there tons of other examples. Globalization at work.

[citymama]

We've always driven American, union-made cars - favoring Saturns over most others. I'd love to get a US-made Toyota Prius (if I could afford it), but definitely concerned by the lack of unionization at the factories.

[sariana]

FWIW, I hated my Honda Accord and will never buy another Honda. I had so many problems with that car that I cannot understand how it always ranks so high for quality.

Currently we own one Mazda and lease another. We are considering a Toyota Highlander when the lease is up because we would like a hybrid, and that is the only hybrid currently available in that size class.

I would never buy a GM. I don't like their products, and they continued using animals for testing long after it was shown animal testing was virtually useless for automobiles. (This was according to my mom, who would have known such things. I have no written evidence.)

[Papa Joe]

The problem is that in order to buy an equivalent American car to a foreign car of similar build and features, you have to pay over a 1000 dollar premium because you have to pay the additonal costs that are tacked on to American cars mostly due to American union costs. For someone on a budget, that might be hard to do.

[ThreeofUs]

Aaannnndd then there's always the threat of one or more of the big US automakers going under. I mean, I'd like the table and chairs like the Chrysler Town and Country has in their minivan. But I honestly don't want to pay a ton of the old hard-earned for a car that (1) has a poor repair history and (2) might belong to a defunct carmaker in the near future.

[gatorsmom]

I own one now and love it. :) I plan to drive it into the ground, so re-sale doesn't particularly concern me.



For every ONE auto employee with a package like that, there are 20 in Flint living in poverty who can't sell their house because it isn't worth $10,000.

But I do agree it isn't so easy to say "buy American" when any car now is a mix of parts and assembly could be almost anywhere.


I totally agree. I drive a Chrysler Town and Country and LOVE IT. It will be driven into the ground. My dad has had the same Suburban for 10 years. My ILs too. They love them.

I agree we should look at "what we can do for our country" and support American-made as much as possible, even if that means in some cases paying a bit more (as much as that is possible for each of our families). I truly believe it will pay off in the long run.

[KrisM]

I totally agree. I drive a Chrysler Town and Country and LOVE IT. It will be driven into the ground. My dad has had the same Suburban for 10 years. My ILs too. They love them.

I agree we should look at "what we can do for our country" and support American-made as much as possible, even if that means in some cases paying a bit more (as much as that is possible for each of our families). I truly believe it will pay off in the long run.

Do you know if your Town and Country was made in the US? They're made in St. Louis or Windsor, Ontario. Quite possibly, your American car was made in Canada. Probably still union workers, but the CAW, not the UAW.

[Momof3Labs]

Take Southwest Airlines for example. Nobody wants to pay a lot of money for a flight, which is understandable. But on the other hand, SW has a history of treating its customers poorly. Other airlines must compete with SW, causing them to lower their rates, and in the duration, lower their amenities to keep paying for their employees. So now, almost every airline treats it customers like cattle.

Huh? SW Airlines actually has a great reputation for customer service, especially compared to the legacy carriers, if you've ever had to deal with the various airlines. They were able to keep their fares so low for so long because they had purchased fuel hedges at a competitive exercise price, and they used a no-frills business model (which does not translate to a no-customer-service business model). Now, none of the airlines can charge what it actually costs to fly people around because people won't pay it, so they are trying to find other ways to reduce their expenses - outsourcing customer service and other call centers, cutting food and beverage service, charging for checked bags, etc. And most of SW's fuel hedges have expired, so their fares are more comparable to the legacy carrier's fares on many routes in recent months.

Anyway, this really is OT from the original post, but I still had to respond because it was so inconsistent with my experience (including many pre-kid years as a frequent flyer).

[shawnandangel]

I would like to add that I've flown Southwest several times and have always had exceptional service.

Delta? I've flown with them 4 times. 3 times they have lost my luggage. . .

American? Flown with them once. I enjoyed my flight :)

Sorry this is offtopic :)

Continue ranting about cars!

[s7714]

A large % of DH's family worked for GM. Only a couple do now. Why? Because the large majority of them lost their jobs or were forced into early retirement when GM decided to move things to Mexico or other non-US places. I do not by any means consider ANY automaker to strictly be a "US made" manufacturer any more.

Because of the family connection and discount opportunities, DH and I stuck with GM cars for years. We were major Saturn fans. DH still drives one. But, when it came time to buy a mini-van, all the GM versions were seriously behind in features, safety ratings, fuel economy and price. Even the GM employee discount couldn't make up for the lacking on those issues. There was no way were were going to spend more money on a vehicle that had a lower safety rating, used more gas and had features straight from the 90s. I know these things vary across vehicle types, and if we were in the market for another sedan we'd probably consider another Saturn or GM car, but for mini-vans specifically there was just no question as to who made a better product.

[Rainbows&Roses]

Because I spent more hours than I can even remember sitting in the Chevy dealer's waiting room for them to fix my lemon of a car and sank more money into it in it for four years than a year's worth of car payments. My DH had a Saturn piece -of-garbage that was just about as worthless.

Meanwhile my 11 year old Toyota has been nearly perfect as has our Sienna.

The American automakers had the technology to do things right in terms of gas mileage back in the 70's post- oil crisis and they chose not to. The politics of the industry is shameful.

Nope, never again. I don't think there is much that any American automaker can convince me to purchase one of their products. I feel bad for the people who have lost/will lose jobs because of poor decisions by the company CEO's and hope they can be re-trained for other jobs.

I like buying American, but the investment for an auto is huge and not one to risk and IMO and IME, buying American autos is a big risk.

[kransden]

I am one of the car lounge lizards.:) Based on abundant personal experience, I will only buy a car Consumer Reports rates well. Which in the minivan category is a Honda or Toyota. I can buy an Uplander for $12,000 but it's rating is a dismal 30% compared to the other 2 at 80%+. (The rest rate at about 60%) I have been a CR fan for years. The reliablity rating system is fair to me. I buy American when I can, but I will be driving my car for 10+ years. My Nissan is at 120,000 miles and has had a dead battery - that's it. I couldn't say that about my @##$% Ford.

What actually suprises me is that the big 3 are still in business. True they have improved on their products, but so have the foreign makers, so they are still behind! I wish I could buy American, but until their relability goes up - no way. Detroit just needs to say "yes we can!" :)

[overcome]

I haven't read any of the replies but I have had american made after american made car and they STINK! I don't trust them at all.

I will support america in many other ways and buy american (and locally) whenever possible, but sorry, tens of thousands of dollars is too big of a risk for me to take on american cars.

[3blackcats]

I buy Toyota and Honda because of the value you get for the money. Another reason I love my Toyota is because all the buttons you need to use on a regular basis are right there. For example, the A/C button is this big button that says "a/c" in a GM product of the same year as my car it is a tiny, small button under all the dials at the bottom that has a picture of a snowflake. Not really convenient.

Another example. I have a 2004 Toyota Corolla CE, low model because I was in school when I bought it. Last year we rented a Dodge Caliber when we were in FL. So, same category of car. On the passenger side, the wiring box that runs under the car was jammed into my ankles. This doesn't happen with my car. And my cheap end Corolla was finished a 100% nicer then the Dodge.

And of course PP have mentioned that there are huge Toyota/Honda plants in the Southern states. And a huge Toyota plant in ON, Canada. American cars are made in Mexico.

I'm not an engineer, but you would think that maybe the American auto designers could ride in Toyota/Hondas and see how much nicer they are and maybe make some improvements.

Too little, too late IMHO.

[JTsMom]

My DH has worked for Toyota for 25 years. I can't even venture a guess as to how many Americans Toyota employees, but suffice it to say it's a very high number. Are these jobs not just as important? I certainly appreciate DH's paycheck, and everyone's love of the Sienna, even more now that we dealt with a layoff this year!

Our Sienna was built in Indiana. Our Camry was built in Kentucky. The Prius is built in America as well. These are just off the top of my head.

And I'll just throw a big ole :yeahthat: to everything said above about quality and resale.

[ShayleighCarsensMom]

For us, we needed a van that would last 10 years and knew that "American" made vans wouldn't last. We bought a Honda that was made in the USA.
While I won't buy American cars, I will use my money wisely in other areas to buy other quality American products, so it all evens out.

[LexyLou]

Like the others have said. I have had horrible luck with American cars. The amount of money I sink it to them is absurd. I now have a Toyota 4Runner which is 5 years old. I have no intention or desire to get rid of this car and the two American cars I had, I wanted to get rid of within 3 years. I love my 4Runner, and have had zero issues with it. I hope to drive it for at least another 5 years, and like others have mentioned. It's not like Toyotas are built in Japan anymore. They employee thousands of US workers in 100's of plants throughout our Country. I feel don't feel an ounce of guilt when I buy a foreign car.

On the Southwest topic (which is off topic). I love SW. I wish I could fly SW cross country. I can't tell you how often we have horrible service in our American Airlines flights. SW flight attendants are hysterical.

[KrisM]

American cars are made in Mexico.



A lot of American cars are made in the US. They are not all made in Mexico. Honda has plants in Mexico. They make Accords and CR-Vs there.

[KrisM]

I'm not an engineer, but you would think that maybe the American auto designers could ride in Toyota/Hondas and see how much nicer they are and maybe make some improvements.



I am an engineer. I used to work for a Tier 1 auto supplier, making 4WD parts. We supplied the US automakers as well as European and Asian, including Honda for a bit.

For quite a while, the focus of the US automakers was saving costs rather than saving weight. A weight savings often translates to a fuel performance increase. We'd use Aluminum instead of Magnisium. Mag is lighter, but more expensive (at the time, I don't know now). So, we added weight but cut cost.

The auto engineers at the Big 3 most definitely do ride in all competitors vehicles. Most definitely. I've been to various proving grounds for Ford and GM and have seen the competitors vehicles, both US and Foreign, there.

I'm not defeding the Big 3 at all, because they've certainly made a lot of mistakes! But, I am very familar with it, so I'm trying to point other things out.

Personally, I hated working with Honda. I would be the specialist in the meeting for our company and the Honda salesmen and engineers would ask our sales rep an engineering question and I'd answer. They would not ask me directly, because I was a woman and the sales rep was a man. It was the most frustrating experience.

[gatorsmom]

Do you know if your Town and Country was made in the US? They're made in St. Louis or Windsor, Ontario. Quite possibly, your American car was made in Canada. Probably still union workers, but the CAW, not the UAW.

How could I find that out? Would it be marked on the car or something?
Unfortunately, there isn't much that I can do as a consumer to insist that my car is made in America. Or is there? I just thought I was doing enough by buying an American brand. That's all I can really do, isn't it? And I do try. I do everything I can to support American products, at least everything that my time and budget allows.

[elliput]

Something that has not been mentioned here is the production costs that auto makers put into their vehicles. A vehicle that is going to have a bigger return for the auto maker is going to get more money for R&D. This is the reason many US automaker's small cars just don't stand up to the quality in a comparable Japanese car. US automakers would like to drop the cars that don't make money for them and are inferior, but CAFE standards (hthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economytp://) mean they have to produce small cars to balance the fuel consumption of SUVS and trucks.

Here is an interesting article with regards car buyers perceptions of quality with regards to US and forgien owned auto manufacturers. What Do You Mean by "Vehicle Quality?" (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/121978/article.html) An important point made in the article

Long-term reputation: Ingrained notions of vehicle quality dictate much consumer behavior, often overriding the latest relative data on manufacturing quality.

The best current illustration of this phenomenon is Ford vehicles' tremendous leaps in a number of measures of initial manufacturing quality, especially in their newer models such as the Edge and Fusion. At the same time, Toyota has been bungling its performance in factory quality lately, forcing the company to issue a number of huge recalls for some of its newest models, including its important new Tundra pickup truck.

Yet Ford's sales continue to plummet month by month in the U.S. market, while Toyota's extend their amazing upward trend. Consumers clearly are acting in part on the two brands' long-term reputations for quality.

"Products have such a long shelf life, and 90 percent of Toyotas on the road today were built in a high-quality environment," explained Alan Dean, vice president of business innovation for Toronto-based BrandIntel, which analyzes online discussions of brand quality. "And Ford is doing surprisingly well in quality studies today, but 90 percent of their vehicles are older and were made when the quality wasn't there."

[KrisM]

How could I find that out? Would it be marked on the car or something?
Unfortunately, there isn't much that I can do as a consumer to insist that my car is made in America. Or is there? I just thought I was doing enough by buying an American brand. That's all I can really do, isn't it? And I do try. I do everything I can to support American products, at least everything that my time and budget allows.

Your VIN will tell you. Here's a decoding site: http://www.carspace.com/guides/How-to-Decode-VIN-Numbers

1st character indicates the country of manufacture, e.g., U.S.A.(1or4), Canada(2), Mexico(3), Japan(J), Korea(K), England(S), Germany(W), Italy(Z)

[elliput]

On most vehicles there is a sticker on one of the windows stating the location of final assembly. Every vechicle made has components made in other countries. The "final assembly" location is what we think of as manfacture, when really it is just putting the puzzle pieces together. The powertrain could be made in the States, the frame in Canada, the electronics in Korea, and the tires in China.

[lisams]

I say "Why not buy used?!" Our economy is so messed up partly due to consumers spending beyond their means.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I say "Why not buy used?!" Our economy is so messed up partly due to consumers spending beyond their means.

If you can buy a new car without going into debt, to me that makes sense, especially if you are the type who will keep a car for years to come. We have only ever owned one car- we bought our Civic brand new in 1999. I know some used cars come with good warranties but a new car will come with a warranty and you can feel comfortable that it will likely be years before expensive problems crop up. If you buy used you may run into expensive repairs much sooner so the cost of a used car may wind up being more than a new car. Even if you have to take out a loan on a new car that isn't always a bad thing, imo. Buying within your means makes sense but that is true for every purchase.

Beth

[Globetrotter]

I can certainly understand your frustration, especially in the current economic times :(

We are big fans of Japanese cars. They are just so reliable and well made! We run ours into the ground and donate them to charity, and it's amazing how long these cars last without major repairs. Dh had his Honda for 15 years, and it could have kept going with some repairs (to comply with the smog check), but we needed a minivan so we decided not to do the repairs and got a Sienna instead. In five years it's needed maybe one repair. In around 10 years, our Camry has hardly had any issues!

I've heard too many horror stories about American made cars spending a lot of time in the shop. I don't know.. maybe it's improved over the years but still not enough to sway me to the other side and stick to a proven winner. Also, there is a Toyota plant in our town (I know nowadays many are made in the USA).

[KrisM]

I can certainly understand your frustration, especially in the current economic times :(

We are big fans of Japanese cars. They are just so reliable and well made! We run ours into the ground and donate them to charity, and it's amazing how long these cars last without major repairs. Dh had his Honda for 15 years, and it could have kept going with some repairs (to comply with the smog check), but we needed a minivan so we decided not to do the repairs and got a Sienna instead. In five years it's needed maybe one repair. In around 10 years, our Camry has hardly had any issues!

I've heard too many horror stories about American made cars spending a lot of time in the shop. I don't know.. maybe it's improved over the years but still not enough to sway me to the other side and stick to a proven winner. Also, there is a Toyota plant in our town (I know nowadays many are made in the USA).

See with data points of 2 or 3, you can make things go either way. I have never owned anything other than Ford or GM. We have a 10 year old Saturn that has had very few repairs. We have a 5 year old Malibu with 95,000 miles on it and only a couple minor repairs. Nothing major. My friend has an Oddessy that she can not wait to be done with. It's been horrible. He has 2 more years on the lease though and is stuck. He'll go back to a Town and Country because he never had problems with that. So, 4 data points here and it tells me American is great and Japanese is awful. I think over the years, Japanese has definitely been better than American, but today's American cars are not what they were 10 years ago.

[gatorsmom]

See with data points of 2 or 3, you can make things go either way. I have never owned anything other than Ford or GM. We have a 10 year old Saturn that has had very few repairs. We have a 5 year old Malibu with 95,000 miles on it and only a couple minor repairs. Nothing major. My friend has an Oddessy that she can not wait to be done with. It's been horrible. He has 2 more years on the lease though and is stuck. He'll go back to a Town and Country because he never had problems with that. So, 4 data points here and it tells me American is great and Japanese is awful. I think over the years, Japanese has definitely been better than American, but today's American cars are not what they were 10 years ago.

You know, this is an excellent point and made me think of something. My dad and Dh love to talk about cars and I just listen in ;). They are constantly talking about how a new, upgraded version of a car or truck is proving to be a good one. If I recall correctly, the last time they talked they were saying they were interested in the new hemi motor in one of the pick up trucks and said they weren't rushing out to get one because it hadn't proven itself yet. Some years the makes (models?) are better than others. I'm guessing that could apply to foreign-made cars as well.

And of course it doesn't matter where your car is made, if you don't take care of it, it won't run properly.

[egoldber]

And also ANY car can be a lemon. They exist in ALL makes of cars. I know two people who have had lemon Odysseys. I know NO ONE with a lemon T&C or Grand Caravan. (Obviously, they exist, I know that :) ).

And buying a used car always makes the most financial sense. You don't take the several thousand dollar hit just from driving it off the lot and even with the cost of repairs, you almost always come out ahead.

[westgre]

And buying a used car always makes the most financial sense. You don't take the several thousand dollar hit just from driving it off the lot and even with the cost of repairs, you almost always come out ahead.
I disagree with this. When I bought my 2001 Honda CR-V new, I got a better interest rate than I did for a used one. My final monthly car payment was actually cheaper for the new car for the same period of time. Granted, the warranty was actually better for the used, but I went with the new one instead. Also, my interest rate was so low and Honda holds value so well, I didn't ever owe more than the car was worth.
On the other hand, since moving back to WV, in close vicinity to a Toyota plant, I am seiously considering buying a Toyota next, even though I prefer Honda. WV does not have a wealth of reliable, good paying jobs, and if I can support Toyota's plant here, I will. But, I'm hoping to drive my Honda for several more years yet.
As an aside, I don't know about the newer ones, but my 2001 CR-V's VIN starts with J, so not a Mexican product.

[KrisM]

And also ANY car can be a lemon. They exist in ALL makes of cars. I know two people who have had lemon Odysseys. I know NO ONE with a lemon T&C or Grand Caravan. (Obviously, they exist, I know that :) ).

And buying a used car always makes the most financial sense. You don't take the several thousand dollar hit just from driving it off the lot and even with the cost of repairs, you almost always come out ahead.

One thing to consider though is employee/family discounts. I pay less than MSRP on GM, Chrylser, and Ford because of employee discounts. I still qualify for any rebates. So, for my Malibu, the MSRP was $27k or so and mine came in at just under $20k. Many of the Big 3 can give away discounts, too. Ford and Chrysler employees can get the discount for their friends, I am sure. Not sure about GM. So, if you know someone at a company or dealership, it might be better than buying used.

[Nooknookmom]

I too have been burned by an American auto. Sure, they *may* have improved but I work too hard to risk 20 to 30 THOUSAND dollars of my hard-earned money on a car that does not have a long-term track record. We expect to drive our cars for 12-15 years and I don't think I can count on that with the american manufacturers.

Also, I personally know some (older) people that have absolutely ridiculous retirement compensation packages from american auto manufacturers. It is one thing to help the union worker with a young family, it is another thing to be funding someone's second home in Florida!

Had to chime in, if it weren't for the "ridiculous retirement compensation package" that my Father received after 35 years at Ford, my parents wouldn't be able to afford their medical costs. The surgeries alone that my Dad needed from the repetative work he perfomed at Ford (roto-cuff, knee replacement) would have drained their savings. Not to mention the heart medications and procedures he needs to keep himself alive.

Unfortunately, they do not have enough in their retirement package for a 2nd home. However, they are fortunate enough to have 1 nice home, put food on the table and occasionaly visit their grandchildren.

[egoldber]

One thing to consider though is employee/family discounts

I didn't think about that. I suppose it's fair when comparing a new vs a newish car, that the new car may be a better deal. But buying a 5-6 year old reliable car and then driving it until it falls apart is generally a better financial decision.

[KrisM]

I didn't think about that. I suppose it's fair when comparing a new vs a newish car, that the new car may be a better deal. But buying a 5-6 year old reliable car and then driving it until it falls apart is generally a better financial decision.

Could be. I've only bought this car new. My previous were used and about 5 years old. I owned them another 5 or 6 years. Well, the last for only 3, but I needed something before DS was born (I had a Ford Probe and it just wasn't practical!). I'm at 5 years on this car and we will hopefully keep it for another 7 or 8 years. DH's car only holds 2 kids and it'll be the one to go when we decide to get a minivan or something bigger for me. Honestly, I am not really sure how to run the numbers to compare things. I'll have to figure that out!

[niccig]

Had to chime in, if it weren't for the "ridiculous retirement compensation package" that my Father received after 35 years at Ford, my parents wouldn't be able to afford their medical costs. The surgeries alone that my Dad needed from the repetative work he perfomed at Ford (roto-cuff, knee replacement) would have drained their savings. Not to mention the heart medications and procedures he needs to keep himself alive.

Unfortunately, they do not have enough in their retirement package for a 2nd home. However, they are fortunate enough to have 1 nice home, put food on the table and occasionaly visit their grandchildren.

And I had to chime in. FIL in Michigan was a nurse, as is MIL. He too has very expensive heart surgeries plus other medical conditions...diabetic, neurological disorder that causes tremors a little like Parkinson does. He pays for all his own medical costs that aren't covered through medicare and his retirement through savings and 401K. MIL is in mid-60s and she still works to cover any gaps in income. Not everyone has great retirement/health benefits for life...knowing that, ILs saved as much as they could while working.

And I must admit, when I heard about the job bank, get paid a certain percentage of income when laid off until another job was found, well, I don't know of anyone else that has that security line. For the rest of us, when you get laid off, that's it, no more income. And if we're smart, we save money just in case that happens. I do understand that these were the contracts signed at the time, but they have become very costly and crippling for the company.

ETA. I never answered the OP's question. We bought a new car last year. I looked at the Saturn Vue, Honda CRV, Mazda 5, Toyota Rav4 etc. The Saturn only had 2 headrests in the back seat, the center did not have a headrest. The others all had headrests for each seating postion. Headrests help prevent whiplash, it's been proven for years, so it's not a recent safety invention. Front seat have to have them since the 1960's, but it's still not mandatory in the rear seats. But many manufacturers do have head rests for all seats because it is safer despite no laws to require it. I couldn't believe a 2008 model would not have rear headrests. This would limit that seating position to a car seat or highback booster, low back booster would only work if the child's head wasn't above the top of the seat. An adult in that position would have higher risk of whiplash if in an accident. We plan to keep this car for 10+ years, so I went with one that had the top safety features as of 2008. That was not the Saturn.

[sste]

Nooknookmom, I should be clear that the people I know were senior level engineers and business executives. Their retirement packages are unheard of - - my understanding was that for some of them it was essentially their salary, or a little under that, for life. I am talking about people that made (adjusted to inflation) generous six figure salaries. They also rec'd very good health benefits. My point is that I do not agree with the american mfrs business practices, I think they are drowning in their pension obligations and other poor decisionmaking, and when it comes down to it I don't feel compelled to subsidize those management decisions by buying a car I would otherwise not buy.

I am so sorry to hear about your dad.

[kijip]

We buy used and I will only ever pay cash for a car, having a car note would drive me nuts. No car payment = being able to save that money. Then being able to pay cash when we need a car again in like 2016ish. It's way cheaper to just pay no interest at all. Based on long term reliability data from Consumer Reports, I can more reasonably expect my gently used Camry to last me 10 largely repair free years than I could a Ford Taurus or whatnot. Our old Corolla, bought used, only ever needed ONE repair, all other car service was routine care and wear and tear type things. That one repair cost less than $200. In the aggregate the data supports that certain foreign brands generally long outlast their American branded competition. For cheap people like me who have no intention of buying a car every few years or ever buying a new car or taking a loan on a car or ever buying an SUV/truck, American cars in general are not going to meet my needs. Most of the praise I hear about American sedans/minivans comes from people that have not owned the same car for a decade and about new models that we have no idea of how they will hold up. I have a friend that swears by her Fords, but she buys a new one every other year. Kinda of hard to tell how reliable it is while it is still that new (unless you have a lemon). We paid almost 20% of what we earned in a year for our then 2 year old full featured Camry. I am not going to mess around with that kind of money and buy something I can't rely on. I think our economy is too global to make it as simple as buy American anyways. Reminds me of the controversy over buying Airbus planes- Boeing jets are made all over the world and merely assembled here. It is pretty moot.

[mamicka]

You are entitled to your rant so I don't want to sound argumentative. Just saying I have no particular loyalty to American or foreign cars. We currently own an Accord & a T&C. We love both. In general, I lean towards foreign cars because they physically fit me better. I'm short (5'2") & feel much more comfortable (therefore safer) in foreign cars. I usually feeli like I'm swimming in American cars. I know I'm not the only one with this experience.

[maestramommy]

You are entitled to your rant so I don't want to sound argumentative. Just saying I have no particular loyalty to American or foreign cars. We currently own an Accord & a T&C. We love both. In general, I lean towards foreign cars because they physically fit me better. I'm short (5'2") & feel much more comfortable (therefore safer) in foreign cars. I usually feeli like I'm swimming in American cars. I know I'm not the only one with this experience.

Funny, that's how we feel too! Also, whenever we rent cars they are American, and I find the suspension on American cars of comparable size is so squishy.

[jal]

...Granted, the US carmakers had a period of poor quality, almost 30 YEARS ago, but now are right up there with the Japanese imports...

Personal experience has been counter to this claim.

Between my wife and I, we've owned Nissan Sentra, Nissan Pulsar, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, and Jeep Grand Cherokee. The only one that has has lots of problems and multiple trips to the shop was the Jeep. Granted, it MIGHT only be a coinsidence. But over all, I'm anactodally still hearing and reading about more problems with American base car manufacturers than I am from Japaneese based. So until I clearly hear the pendulum swinging the other way... based on my personal experience, my next car will most likely be a Honda (only compains I've heard there are with some early model mini-vans with transmission problems).

[egoldber]

American cars of comparable size is so squishy.

Ahhhh! This is definitely an American car "feel". Japanese designed cars are less squishy. I also think Toyotas are more squishy than Hondas. And European cars are the least squishy, although a Mercedes is squishier than a BMW.

All in broad strokes mind you..... ;)

[mommylamb]

We have a Hyundai and an old Plymouth Neon. the one good thing I can say about the Neon is that we don't have a car payment on it, so we'll keep it until it dies, but it certainly is not the nicest car (then again, it is a super cheap car and probably not reflective of the American car industry as a whole). But I love our Hundai. Next time, I don't think I'd even look anywhere else. I think it's just as nice as a Toyota or Honda for a lot less money. I did love an old camry I used to have, but I once had a Nissan Sentra, and that was a total lemon.

[maestramommy]

Ahhhh! This is definitely an American car "feel". Japanese designed cars are less squishy. I also think Toyotas are more squishy than Hondas. And European cars are the least squishy, although a Mercedes is squishier than a BMW.

All in broad strokes mind you..... ;)

LOL! Very much in agreement with you here! I test drove a 6 cylinder Passat in stick before buying the Accord. I had to keep telling myself "be practical, be practical..."

[Nooknookmom]

And I had to chime in. FIL in Michigan was a nurse, as is MIL. He too has very expensive heart surgeries plus other medical conditions...diabetic, neurological disorder that causes tremors a little like Parkinson does. He pays for all his own medical costs that aren't covered through medicare and his retirement through savings and 401K. MIL is in mid-60s and she still works to cover any gaps in income. Not everyone has great retirement/health benefits for life...knowing that, ILs saved as much as they could while working.

And I must admit, when I heard about the job bank, get paid a certain percentage of income when laid off until another job was found, well, I don't know of anyone else that has that security line. For the rest of us, when you get laid off, that's it, no more income. And if we're smart, we save money just in case that happens. I do understand that these were the contracts signed at the time, but they have become very costly and crippling for the company.

ETA. I never answered the OP's question. We bought a new car last year. I looked at the Saturn Vue, Honda CRV, Mazda 5, Toyota Rav4 etc. The Saturn only had 2 headrests in the back seat, the center did not have a headrest. The others all had headrests for each seating postion. Headrests help prevent whiplash, it's been proven for years, so it's not a recent safety invention. Front seat have to have them since the 1960's, but it's still not mandatory in the rear seats. But many manufacturers do have head rests for all seats because it is safer despite no laws to require it. I couldn't believe a 2008 model would not have rear headrests. This would limit that seating position to a car seat or highback booster, low back booster would only work if the child's head wasn't above the top of the seat. An adult in that position would have higher risk of whiplash if in an accident. We plan to keep this car for 10+ years, so I went with one that had the top safety features as of 2008. That was not the Saturn.

***My point was that MY parents aren't sitting around somewhere in Key West enjoying "the high life" on someone elses dime as PP insinuated. ***

My Dad worked hard for 35 years and earned every benefit he has. When he was laid off back in the 70's or 80's there wasn't a "job bank" that he was thrown into. When he was laid off, we cut back and waited for the line to start production again, end of story.

Regarding healthcare, my parents too have saved over the years, thank you, and their current health plan, from the auto maker, does NOT cover ALL their expenses. Namely $300 office visits and certain procedures that are out of pocket. If our healthcare system were to be reigned in to an affordable level, it would cut costs across the board for everyone (esp. those w/out a retirement plan). Unfortunately, that's not the case and I thank God my parents do have a decent (not over the top) retirement to help out. Add to that retirement my Dad's part time job 6 days a week and they do OK.

Speaking of planning one's own retirement, DH & I have lots of clients and friends who are in their 60's & 70's who did NOT have a retirement coming from a company they had worked at for most of their lives. However, they did plan ahead by investing their savings in diversified stocks, real estate, etc. Unfortunately, most of them lost 1/2 to 3/4 of their life savings in the recent months. So, yes we can plan ahead for our own retirement, but there are no guarantees that it will be there when it's ready.

I really think making a blanket statement about something when you don't have all the information is to misinform others. This is exactly why I stay OUT of heated discussions and mainly post on happy subjects. All the facts are never laid out. Now I'm returning to the daily grind.

[niccig]

***My point was that MY parents aren't sitting around somewhere in Key West enjoying "the high life" on someone elses dime as PP insinuated. ***

My Dad worked hard for 35 years and earned every benefit he has. When he was laid off back in the 70's or 80's there wasn't a "job bank" that he was thrown into. When he was laid off, we cut back and waited for the line to start production again, end of story.

Regarding healthcare, my parents too have saved over the years, thank you, and their current health plan, from the auto maker, does NOT cover ALL their expenses. Namely $300 office visits and certain procedures that are out of pocket. If our healthcare system were to be reigned in to an affordable level, it would cut costs across the board for everyone (esp. those w/out a retirement plan). Unfortunately, that's not the case and I thank God my parents do have a decent (not over the top) retirement to help out. Add to that retirement my Dad's part time job 6 days a week and they do OK.

Speaking of planning one's own retirement, DH & I have lots of clients and friends who are in their 60's & 70's who did NOT have a retirement coming from a company they had worked at for most of their lives. However, they did plan ahead by investing their savings in diversified stocks, real estate, etc. Unfortunately, most of them lost 1/2 to 3/4 of their life savings in the recent months. So, yes we can plan ahead for our own retirement, but there are no guarantees that it will be there when it's ready.

I really think making a blanket statement about something when you don't have all the information is to misinform others. This is exactly why I stay OUT of heated discussions and mainly post on happy subjects. All the facts are never laid out. Now I'm returning to the daily grind.

And I was trying to point out that from the point of view of people that worked just as hard and as long, but don't have a pension, the retirees of the car companies seem to have it pretty good. My ILs did lose a lot of money from their 401K, they'll probably still be OK, but they don't know if they'll have enough for rest of life. DH and I are factoring in supporting them into our financial goals. My understanding from my BIL that works at GM, is that even if the Big 3 go bankrupt, the pensions are still guaranteed. As you said, retirement income in a 401K can be wiped out pretty quickly, so for people that are relying on that, a pension sounds more secure. I know my ILs say they may have been better off with a pension. And they did just visit friends who were car company retirees at their 2nd house in Florida. They could never afford that either. But I hear you that not everyone has that 2nd home.

It sucks that your Dad's health insurance doesn't cover everything. I do know my FIL has the same situation with Medicare and they buy insurance that covers the gap. I don't know if that's possible for your Dad's situation.

This is all OT from the OP. The main reason I did not buy an American manufacturer car, is that of all the cars I was considering (4 models), the American car did not have the same safety features or high crash test results as the non-American cars. I would have bought American if the safety features I wanted were there.

[egoldber]

As you said, retirement income in a 401K can be wiped out pretty quickly, so for people that are relying on that, a pension sounds more secure.

It depends. Many pension plans are also invested and can be wiped out just like a 401k plan.

[vludmilla]

It depends. Many pension plans are also invested and can be wiped out just like a 401k plan.

Indeed. Pension plans usually invest just as individuals do and therefore they lose money too. Also, very few pensions are truly guaranteed these days, unless you consider the Federal Pension Guarantor, the guarantee, but I don't since nearly everyone with a pension has access to that guarantee which is funded with our taxes and fees from the companies.

I also don't think it's fair to compare what one set of retirees has to another. People spend their money quite differently. Some are savers and some are spenders. My dear friend and her husband make almost exactly as much as DH and I but they can afford only HALF of what we can for a house. They buy so much more than we do, newer cars, more clothes, more everything. I wouldn't like it if someone begrudged me my pension when in actuality, I just saved better. So, please, let's stop with the "they have a 2nd house in Florida" stuff. There is no way to know *how* they afforded the house. It could have been better savings, inheritance, fortunate investments...

[vludmilla]

"well, I don't know of anyone else that has that security line."

I do. My friend's father was laid off/fired from his position as president of a very large chain store and he was given full salary until he found a new job with no time limit. They also paid for an office and a personal secretary for him in Manhattan so that he could conduct his search. Sounds pretty expensive, right? Well, I doubt that this large company is the only one giving this extraordinary perk to their executives.

[niccig]

It depends. Many pension plans are also invested and can be wiped out just like a 401k plan.

BIL said pensions are guaranteed by U.S. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. and that's a federal corporation. He made it sound that the pensions would be OK. Fingers crossed for him that he is right, he's not retired though, so I don't know if it's just those that are already retired or everyone.

[niccig]

"well, I don't know of anyone else that has that security line."

I do. My friend's father was laid off/fired from his position as president of a very large chain store and he was given full salary until he found a new job with no time limit. They also paid for an office and a personal secretary for him in Manhattan so that he could conduct his search. Sounds pretty expensive, right? Well, I doubt that this large company is the only one giving this extraordinary perk to their executives.

Yeah, nice perk. I know some people that could have used something like this. They did get a severance package, but finding work has taken much longer and she said that's pretty much all used up. Seems like you have to be a high flyer for that kind of perk.

[sste]

"Also, I personally know some (older) people that have absolutely ridiculous retirement compensation packages from american auto manufacturers. It is one thing to help the union worker with a young family, it is another thing to be funding someone's second home in Florida!"


Nooknook mom, this is exactly what I said in my post. I never insinuated that YOUR parents were in Key West on someone else's dime "enjoying the high life," or hadn't worked hard or saved. I don't know your parents - - why would I be commenting on them! Though I can understand that this issue is close to home for you - - especially with your parents' health problems.

The two families I know PERSONALLY as I specifically stated in my post do in fact have second homes in Flordia and live in a way that most comparable retired engineers and mid/senior-level management do not live. Of course, they are not the only two people in America with second homes or a great retirement package! Of course, every big 3 retired factory worker does not have a second home!

But, it is true that part of my American car purchase dollars are going to fund pension obligations that are far, far more generous than my own pension or anything our generation will ever receive. Given all the need out there and all the charities, this is simply not at the top of my personal list of social causes.

However, I don't think anyone should be upset. Even if I don't buy an American car, based on my tax bracket a crapload of my hard-earned dollars will undoubtedly end up used in an auto bailout. So, take heart!

[HannaAddict]

The "buy American" sentiment is nice but not as clear as the original poster suggest. Ford actually owns Volvo. We bought a Volvo made by workers who get health insurance, the car is safe, reliable and there were no other similar "American" cars available that were as nice feeling on the road or to drive. Chrysler is no longer "American" but owned by Daimler Benz, the new company name was called "Daimler Chrysler" but the deal was the German company buying the American one. Though about a year ago Daimler Benz sold Chrysler to a private equity capital group for about 10% of what they paid. (ouch) Still, all the Mercedes SUVs and crossovers are made in the good old USA by American workers. No overseas delivery trip available to pick up your MB GL, ML, or R class. We started looking at Mercedes based on their clean, reliable, fuel efficient diesel technology. No strictly American car companies offered that option and the diesel options got better mileage than the hybrid versions out there at the time (Highlander). Diesel engines run for a long time too. We looked at the Acadia and Enclave but they weren't as nice as the MB (though very nice just not the same feel and ergonomics) and got HORRIBLE mileage. We did not go into debt for the car either, luckily. If you do get a car loan, MB has been offering 0% interest off and on for 60 months. Pretty good for a luxury car that can haul a family, be super safe (dare I say "uber") and get close to 30 mpg on the highway. No "american" car came close.

[Nooknookmom]

"Also, I personally know some (older) people that have absolutely ridiculous retirement compensation packages from american auto manufacturers. It is one thing to help the union worker with a young family, it is another thing to be funding someone's second home in Florida!"


Nooknook mom, this is exactly what I said in my post. I never insinuated that YOUR parents were in Key West on someone else's dime "enjoying the high life," or hadn't worked hard or saved. I don't know your parents - - why would I be commenting on them! Though I can understand that this issue is close to home for you - - especially with your parents' health problems.

The two families I know PERSONALLY as I specifically stated in my post do in fact have second homes in Flordia and live in a way that most comparable retired engineers and mid/senior-level management do not live. Of course, they are not the only two people in America with second homes or a great retirement package! Of course, every big 3 retired factory worker does not have a second home!

But, it is true that part of my American car purchase dollars are going to fund pension obligations that are far, far more generous than my own pension or anything our generation will ever receive. Given all the need out there and all the charities, this is simply not at the top of my personal list of social causes.

However, I don't think anyone should be upset. Even if I don't buy an American car, based on my tax bracket a crapload of my hard-earned dollars will undoubtedly end up used in an auto bailout. So, take heart!


I understand that you were being specific, it just seemed like a blanket statement at the time :) I tend to be a backwards momma-bear when it comes 2 the parents!

[Melanie]

We drive American because my father works at GM. However, I'd like to point out that many, many "foreign" cars are made in America. Many GM cars are made in Mexico. It's a fine line as to what exactly makes a car "American" these days.
I'd also like to add that if my father didn't work at GM, I'd be happily purchasing a Subaru or Toyota. I think that for the money, the quality is better, the amenties are better, the gas milage is better and the aesthetic is better in some of the foreign cars. GM has built some of the most unattractive vehicles on the road (Chevy Uplander, anyone?) All sad, but true, IMHO.

What She Said.

[vludmilla]

BIL said pensions are guaranteed by U.S. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. and that's a federal corporation. He made it sound that the pensions would be OK. Fingers crossed for him that he is right, he's not retired though, so I don't know if it's just those that are already retired or everyone.

I believe all pensions are "guaranteed" by the US PBGC, so long as the companies participate in the program by paying fees. People should know that the PBGC does NOT guarantee the full amount of your pension. They have the discretion to give you a fraction of what you were "guaranteed" to receive. People should also know that the PBGC is not that well-funded by the federal government and if too many companies go bankrupt and void their pension obligations, the PBGC will NOT be able to pay all the pensions, even though they on ly pay a portion of what you were expecting. Personally, the PBGC guarantee would not help me sleep soundly at night. I think your BIL should start or increase his personal retirement savings.

[niccig]

I think your BIL should start or increase his personal retirement savings.

I agree. I hope he knows this. Maybe he was sounding more optimistic, than he really is.

[mom2binsd]

I always am quick to praise our Mercury Monterey minivan (the Ford Freestar twin), it was manufactured in Ontario but I consider it an "American" vehicle. As an aside our local Mitsubishi factory will be shutting down for 12 weeks this spring, originally a shorter shutdown was planned but due to the economy it was extended, our small cities economy isn't feeling the pinch like some of the Michigan cities and places around the country as we're powered by State Farm, Country Companies and a number of colleges etc, but the Mitsubishi shutdown has really made things more real for folks here in our little "bubble" community, we're actually seeing housing prices rise much faster than the rest of the country.

[bubbaray]

I'd never willingly purchase a Domestic vehicle (Ford/GM/Dodge or offshoots). I've always owned Imports (Japanese or German). I just don't care for the quality, or lack thereof, in the Domestics. JMHO. We rent vehicles frequently on vacation and there is just no comparison. DH drives Domestics for work and hates them. The only Domestic that will ever tarnish our driveway would be a full-size pickup (Dodge 3500 diesel or similar) because the Imports just don't do full-size diesel trucks.

For me, its not at all about where the vehicle is made (most of my Imports have been manufactured in the US or Canada), but exclusively about the quality of my purchase -- both in initial quality and long-term reliability.