Need nighttime help (4.5 year old) - long.

[sarahsthreads]

DD1 is having some nighttime potty issues. She is *nowhere* near ready to sleep without a pull-up on, as she often wakes up soaked in the morning, but our problem is that she does not go to sleep for quite a while after her we put her to bed and while she's reading in her room she will poop in her pull-up. Pretty much every single night.

She has free access to the entire upstairs, including two bathrooms. She has incentive (she just has to be poop free for five nights, not even consecutive, to earn a game she's been begging for - she hasn't even managed one night yet). She has the ability to use the bathroom all day long without any problems whatsoever. We have her sit on the potty as part of her bedtime routine, and read half of her bedtime stories there so she has ample opportunity to go before we tuck her in. She is just being lazy. She will tell us that she knew she had to go, but that she was reading a book and just decided to go in her pull-up instead.

So, tonight, we kept her in panties. We told her that if she pooped in them we would have to throw them out. (She likes her panties.) We also promised that we would change her into a pull-up after she fell asleep so she would not wet the bed while she was sleeping.

Half an hour later, guess what? She asked us to come up and change her panties because she was too busy reading to listen to her body. She was begging and pleading with us not to throw away her panties, and kept saying how sorry she was. And then she turned around and took out her least favorite pair of panties from the drawer and said "I don't like these and I want to throw them away, so I'll wear them next." Gah!

I am at my wit's end, and I don't know how to deal with this. I don't want to take away her books - even though they seem to be the root of the problem. I don't want to lecture her and make her feel bad about herself. But I am so incredibly angry. This is not a matter of her bladder not being mature enough to stay dry all night. That is something I understand and accept. But she has been day trained for two *entire* years, and is capable of recognizing when she needs to go. She's not half asleep, she's just too busy to be bothered.

Help, please, before we just take away all her panties and pjs and books and send her to bed naked!

Sarah

[Wife_and_mommy]

We had a similar issue with DS but he's a young 3yo. Throwing out the underwear is what did it. I'd hide the pair(s) she doesn't care about so it has more impact.

I'm also wondering if she, for some reason, isn't ready to poop in the potty? Has she ever? It might be part of the new sibling acclimation, unfortunately.

FWIW, my DS now waits until naptime to poop in his dipe. I'm not making an issue of it beyond "the poop goes in the potty" statement.

[egoldber]

I've never had this exact problem, but I have had situations where books were causing problems with Sarah. Our issue was we discovered she was waking up in the middle of the night and reading. Several chapter books. For HOURS.

We did have to make a "no books" at bedtime rule. Now isn't that something you NEVER, EVER thought you'd say to child? No reading! :ROTFLMAO: To be clear, we still read her a book(s) at bedtime, but she could not read to herself. We read to her, and then lights out and bed and no more books until at LEAST 6:30. We only had to do this for about a month though until she broke the habit. I do think that for some kids the books can be just too distracting.

I also wonder if perhaps she is having some anxiety about something. What often happens with Sarah is she has "bad thoughts" at bedtime and wants to read to get rid of the bad thoughts. Instead, we have substituted relaxation CDs and that works well for her.

[bubbaray]

Well, as you know, my DD#1 does the same thing, but with pee not poop.

IMO, you *have* to throw away the panties from tonight. ASAP. While she watches. She will be hysterical (well, at least my DD#1 would be). BUt, that is the point, no??

I've kinda given up for now. I'm actually hoping that DD#2 will nighttime PT before DD#1 and that will be motivation for DD#1 (who is highly competitive).

I think this situation is completely different from a child who physically can not stay dry at night. Your DD and mine are doing this before they are asleep, which is the frustrating thing. Plus, my DD#1 has a medical reason to be completely out of pullups. I'm actually going to ask the dermatologist in a couple of weeks what she recommends to get DD#1 out of pullups, as she has told us it needs to be done, but I have no clue how to do it.

Oh, and I would totally take away the books at night. I guess I'm the mean mom.

[sarahsthreads]

We had a similar issue with DS but he's a young 3yo. Throwing out the underwear is what did it. I'd hide the pair(s) she doesn't care about so it has more impact.

I'm also wondering if she, for some reason, isn't ready to poop in the potty? Has she ever? It might be part of the new sibling acclimation, unfortunately.

FWIW, my DS now waits until naptime to poop in his dipe. I'm not making an issue of it beyond "the poop goes in the potty" statement.
Oh, she's been pooping in the potty for two years. This is a recent thing - perhaps two or three weeks? - and only when she's wearing a pull-up at night for bed. She hasn't had any issues with constipation ever, and nothing's changed recently in her diet except that she's pretty much subsisting on air for dinner.

I could possibly buy that it's a new sibling thing, as we've had issues pretty much every time DD2 does something new (smile, roll, start solids, etc) with daytime accidents (but just pee). But DD2 hasn't done anything all that new lately. Heck, we even went out to dinner last night and the waitress totally loved on DD1 and completely (and I mean *completely*) ignored DD2 - which I could have kissed her for, because poor DD1 usually gets subjected to the "what a cute little baby sister you have!" treatment.

I think I'll have to hide the pairs DD1 doesn't care about and the pairs that I *do* care about - which will leave her with approximately 5 pairs of panties. (I would strongly prefer not to throw out the Carters or Gymboree panties!)

Sarah :)

[sarahsthreads]

I've never had this exact problem, but I have had situations where books were causing problems with Sarah. Our issue was we discovered she was waking up in the middle of the night and reading. Several chapter books. For HOURS.

We did have to make a "no books" at bedtime rule. Now isn't that something you NEVER, EVER thought you'd say to child? No reading! :ROTFLMAO: To be clear, we still read her a book(s) at bedtime, but she could not read to herself. We read to her, and then lights out and bed and no more books until at LEAST 6:30. We only had to do this for about a month though until she broke the habit. I do think that for some kids the books can be just too distracting.

I also wonder if perhaps she is having some anxiety about something. What often happens with Sarah is she has "bad thoughts" at bedtime and wants to read to get rid of the bad thoughts. Instead, we have substituted relaxation CDs and that works well for her.

That is a very, very interesting thought...

She is extremely anxious about bugs right now. So much so that at a friend's birthday party this evening where she was riding bikes around the driveway with all the other kids she all of a sudden turned hysterical because she thought there might be a mosquito outside somewhere and it was going to bite her and make her all itchy. And she will often tell us she's afraid of the bugs you don't have to touch that will bite or hurt you.

We have a CD called the Sleep Fairy, but DD1 hasn't wanted to listen to it for a while now.

But I think maybe tomorrow I'm going to ask her why she stays up so late reading... I just don't know what to do about it if it's because of her bug phobia.

Sarah :)

[sarahsthreads]

Well, as you know, my DD#1 does the same thing, but with pee not poop.

IMO, you *have* to throw away the panties from tonight. ASAP. While she watches. She will be hysterical (well, at least my DD#1 would be). BUt, that is the point, no??

I've kinda given up for now. I'm actually hoping that DD#2 will nighttime PT before DD#1 and that will be motivation for DD#1 (who is highly competitive).

I think this situation is completely different from a child who physically can not stay dry at night. Your DD and mine are doing this before they are asleep, which is the frustrating thing. Plus, my DD#1 has a medical reason to be completely out of pullups. I'm actually going to ask the dermatologist in a couple of weeks what she recommends to get DD#1 out of pullups, as she has told us it needs to be done, but I have no clue how to do it.

Oh, and I would totally take away the books at night. I guess I'm the mean mom.
I do think taking away the books might have to be the next step. I can't imagine the tantrum that will ensue... Honestly, to enforce it, we would have to remove every last book from the upstairs completely, and really anything that has words on or in it.

Maybe we can start by just taking away the chapter books, as I don't imagine she gets so engrossed in her picture books that she misses her body's signals. Of course, the Easter Bunny is bringing her a set of fairy chapter books in a couple of weeks... :p

Maybe just the threat of taking them away will help?

Sarah :)

[JTsMom]

Can you start asking her every 5 mins if she needs to go around the time she typically goes? I know it would be a lot to do on your part, but I'm wondering if you just break the cycle for a couple of nights, if she'd stop.

[egoldber]

I can't imagine the tantrum that will ensue... Honestly, to enforce it, we would have to remove every last book from the upstairs completely, and really anything that has words on or in it.

Oh yes actually I *can* well imagine that tantrum. BTDT. I think banning chapter books with a threat of removing ALL books could work though.

[hbridge]

We have no personal experience for night time per se, however, DC did have a very drawn out poop regression that I thought would last forever...

If your DD poops in the potty during the day and you really believe it's a matter of not wanting to stop reading, set some rules and stick with them. Tossing panties and losing books for the night when she poops in her pants may work. For us, we took away computer time between the accident and the next successful poop in the potty. In the end, computer time became the reward for successful potty pooping. The key is to find something that can be implemented immediately as a consequence of positive or negative behavior.

If you decide on a consequence, a simple reminder before bed may help. I wouldn't ask every few minutes or do anything to take control away from the child. This is something that ultimately is her responsiblity, by asking often you take that responsiblity onto yourself.

Also, this is most likely a phase. There is probably a reason for this that you will NEVER understand (be it stress, control, ect). We've found that being consistent with the consequences of behavior and not losing your cool (easier said than done) worked best. I KNOW how horribly frustrating this can be, but know that it will pass and become a memory...

Good luck

[npace19147]

You may also want to try buying her some cheap, horribly ugly panties and telling her she can only wear those until she's big enough to stop having accidents in her nice panties. Not as a punishment, very matter of fact. Might be some additional incentive.

My DD1 is also 4.5 and in a pullup at night - we have lots of pee incidents, but no real poop so far. It may be coming next! :eek:

[hillview]

I might just let it go for a while. Sounds like a power struggle thing to me. Let her alone about it for a few weeks?
/hillary

[Momof3Labs]

Is she still napping? If not, why is she staying up so long after you put her to bed? If it is the books, then YES, you need to remove them. DS is also a bookworm but while we read together at bedtime, he is not allowed to read alone after lights-out. He reads in the morning but was waking up waaay too early (like 5am) to dig back into his books, so we don't allow books/light until 6am (he gets up for school at 6:30am). It has helped, though we still having some morning issues. He has always been an early bird so I haven't fought that as hard, but bedtime is hard and fast in our house.

[Kidrepair]

Are you making her take off her own pullup? I had this problem with a little girl I nannied for, she would wait until I put her to bed with a pullup on then she would poop, I tried a little potty in her room, and I was so proud she used it the first day and then never again, I finally started putting her in the tub and making her take off her own pullup, she did not like it one bit, then what worked is I just did not give her privacy, I would literally sit in her room until she fell asleep, I know this probably wouldn't be easy with a new baby, but it worked for us....Good luck...

[sarahsthreads]

We have no personal experience for night time per se, however, DC did have a very drawn out poop regression that I thought would last forever...

If your DD poops in the potty during the day and you really believe it's a matter of not wanting to stop reading, set some rules and stick with them. Tossing panties and losing books for the night when she poops in her pants may work. For us, we took away computer time between the accident and the next successful poop in the potty. In the end, computer time became the reward for successful potty pooping. The key is to find something that can be implemented immediately as a consequence of positive or negative behavior.

If you decide on a consequence, a simple reminder before bed may help. I wouldn't ask every few minutes or do anything to take control away from the child. This is something that ultimately is her responsiblity, by asking often you take that responsiblity onto yourself.

Also, this is most likely a phase. There is probably a reason for this that you will NEVER understand (be it stress, control, ect). We've found that being consistent with the consequences of behavior and not losing your cool (easier said than done) worked best. I KNOW how horribly frustrating this can be, but know that it will pass and become a memory...

Good luck
Yeah, that's the plan we're going with at the moment. Panties get tossed for poop (washed for pee, which was the "I'm too busy reading" accident tonight) and the offending book is taken away. Then the lights go out and no more reading period for the rest of the night.

Boy that was a fun meltdown. :(

I really do feel sad for her. And much less angry tonight. And I promise I haven't yelled at her or lost my temper at all, because I know that will only make it worse. I'm just very matter-of-fact about how she has to listen to her body no matter what.

And I feel like an awful mother tonight because the book she was so engrossed in? The one I took away? Was the Catholic Book of Bible Stories that her Godmother bought her for her baptism. Poor kid was apparently trying to read through the entire bible in one night. (Seriously, when I put her to bed she asked me to read the story of Exodus, and the last time DH went in to check on her - when he found that she'd wet the bed while awake - she was reading about the Last Supper.)

Sarah

[sarahsthreads]

You may also want to try buying her some cheap, horribly ugly panties and telling her she can only wear those until she's big enough to stop having accidents in her nice panties. Not as a punishment, very matter of fact. Might be some additional incentive.

My DD1 is also 4.5 and in a pullup at night - we have lots of pee incidents, but no real poop so far. It may be coming next! :eek:
Ah, but the ones I think are horribly ugly are her favorites. But the cheap part is probably a good idea if this lasts for too much longer!

Sarah :)

[sarahsthreads]

Is she still napping? If not, why is she staying up so long after you put her to bed? If it is the books, then YES, you need to remove them. DS is also a bookworm but while we read together at bedtime, he is not allowed to read alone after lights-out. He reads in the morning but was waking up waaay too early (like 5am) to dig back into his books, so we don't allow books/light until 6am (he gets up for school at 6:30am). It has helped, though we still having some morning issues. He has always been an early bird so I haven't fought that as hard, but bedtime is hard and fast in our house.
We may have to do this. She doesn't nap, but left to her own devices sleeps from 9:30 to 7:30. Which doesn't seem like enough sleep to me, but the ped was unconcerned and she does seem to be well rested for the most part. Though late afternoon/early evening is the whining hour in our house, which I think is a symptom of not quite enough sleep. We put her to bed around 8 because I feel like she *should* be going to bed earlier than 9:30! Since she's perfectly capable of reading her (digital) clock, I think we're going to start enforcing lights out at 8:30. And if she starts getting up too early we can deal with it then - she'll have to start getting up earlier in the fall anyway to get ready on time for the bus!

Thanks!
Sarah :)

[sarahsthreads]

Are you making her take off her own pullup? I had this problem with a little girl I nannied for, she would wait until I put her to bed with a pullup on then she would poop, I tried a little potty in her room, and I was so proud she used it the first day and then never again, I finally started putting her in the tub and making her take off her own pullup, she did not like it one bit, then what worked is I just did not give her privacy, I would literally sit in her room until she fell asleep, I know this probably wouldn't be easy with a new baby, but it worked for us....Good luck...

OK, but how do you deal with the incessant talking and questions? If I sat in her room until she fell asleep she'd never, ever fall asleep because she'd be too busy talking to me! I know, because some nights I actually go to bed before she's asleep and she crawls into bed with me (we have an open family bed policy) and talks non-stop until I tell her she has to stop talking or go back into her own bed. Ignoring her doesn't stop it, either. She just keeps talking and then says "Mommy! Put on your listening ears, I'm trying to ask you a question!" (Oh, it's so much fun to hear your own words reflected back at you...)

Sarah :)

[egoldber]

Poor kid was apparently trying to read through the entire bible in one night.

Ah yes. BTDT. (Not with the Bible LOL, but with other books.) Sarah has a very hard time stopping a book once she's started. Take the chapter books away at bedtime. Tell her she can read short books, but not long ones, and see if that helps.

And seriously, you may only need to do this for a month or so to break the habit.


OK, but how do you deal with the incessant talking and questions? If I sat in her room until she fell asleep she'd never, ever fall asleep because she'd be too busy talking to me!

LOL! She sounds soooooo much like Sarah. We can't be in the room while she falls asleep either. Otherwise she can't shut down to go to sleep.

[egoldber]

Another thought. Maybe giving her something to listen to as she falls asleep will help her give up the books. Sarah listens to this when she has trouble falling asleep and it's great:

http://www.amazon.com/Indigo-Ocean-Dreams-Self-Esteem-Self-Awareness/dp/0970863365/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238427825&sr=8-1

[ray7694]

I don't think it has anything to do with books yet an attention getter. Sounds like new sibling is getting the attention. Can you give her one on one time while she reads the books in hopes she will go during that time. Could she go bare or a skirt. I doubt she would poop then.

Try not to give attention to the behavior at all because that is feeding the problem.