How much of your income do you donate? Biden only donated .7% in 2008!

[justlearning]

Edited to insert here that I'm embarrassed by saying it was .007% when it should have been .7%--whoops! I wrote this post quickly before leaving the house and just got back now to see this mistake. I can't seem to edit the title of this thread, though.

I just read that Obama and Biden's tax documents were disclosed. It showed that Biden donated .7% of his income (just $1885 of $269,256) and that Obama donated 6.5% of his income.

That completely shocks me, given that they should have realized that anything they did in 2008 would be public info. So, if there ever was a time to donate lots, that would be the year. I think Biden's justification that he donated some to his church that isn't reflected in that amount is absurd. (Sure, there are many times when I donate cash without getting a receipt but I always get receipts for larger amounts, so I seriously doubt that he donated large sums without getting a receipt.)

We have always donated over 10% of our gross income every year and we aren't public officials. I'm curious what others donate? And what are your thoughts on what Biden and Obama donated? It seems hypocritical to me for our president and vice president to preach that we all need to help take care of each other but then to give so little beyond that which is mandated from them (i.e., in the form of taxes). By the way, I realize that Obama's contributions were much more substantial than Biden's but they still were less than the typical 10% that tithing church-goers donate. So, I'm still surprised that he didn't donate more as well.

[kijip]

Biden is foolish not to give more when he knows people will be looking at his tax return.

HOWEVER....about not reporting charitable donations. For some people it is a private matter and for others it is not worth the hassle of record keeping. I have a myriad of donation acknowledgments received that I did not bother to assemble and use on my taxes this year, the first year we were even eligible to itemize. I also gave money to places that I never asked for a receipt or received a receipt. I also have given money in situations I would not be getting a receipt for, like buying a lot of stuff for my son's school or writing checks for first and last months rent + deposit for homeless friends of my mother when their numbers finally were called up for public housing. So looking at my tax return you would think I was 100% uncharitable when in fact we gave quite a bit, around 10% of our net income just looking at cash and then we gave a lot in-kind as well. And before we had mortgage interest to get us to the threshold of itemizing, we had no use in record-keeping since even giving thousands a year away, we were still taking the standard deduction.

[kcandz]

HOWEVER....about not reporting charitable donations. For some people it is a private matter and for others it is not worth the hassle of record keeping.

Yes - we are AMT so charitable contributions being documented are little help. We still donate and report what we can, but it isn't accurate, especially when donating goods and not just $$$.

[citymama]

The Biden number astonished me too, except that the article then went on to say that the Bidens were generous donors to their church, which is not included in charitable donations on tax returns. So maybe they gave tens of thousands to their church? No idea.

6.5% of $3 million works out to quite a lot! I thought it was cool that they both shared their tax returns so quickly for public review.

[ha98ed14]

So looking at my tax return you would think I was 100% uncharitable when in fact we gave quite a bit, around 10% of our net income just looking at cash and then we gave a lot in-kind as well. And before we had mortgage interest to get us to the threshold of itemizing, we had no use in record-keeping since even giving thousands a year away, we were still taking the standard deduction.

This is us too. We take the standard deduction because we did not give more than $11K to charity or medical expenses (HMO, so most is covered) or mortgage interest (we rent). So we look pretty stingy. But we give a lot in kind to people in need and money to our church. We just don't give more than the standard deduction.

[ha98ed14]

The Biden number astonished me too, except that the article then went on to say that the Bidens were generous donors to their church, which is not included in charitable donations on tax returns. So maybe they gave tens of thousands to their church? No idea.



Really? I thought you COULD deduct your tithe from your income because (presumably) the church/ place of worship is a non-profit.

[jgenie]

The Biden number astonished me too, except that the article then went on to say that the Bidens were generous donors to their church, which is not included in charitable donations on tax returns. So maybe they gave tens of thousands to their church? No idea.


I don't understand why donations to his church aren't deductible.

[kijip]

By the way, I realize that Obama's contributions were much more substantial than Biden's but they still were less than the typical 10% that tithing church-goers donate. So, I'm still surprised that he didn't donate more as well.

I have several friends who are priests now and we are somewhat involved finance at our church, plus I read fundraising journals due to my profession. Very few people donate a full 10% to their church, even if they are in the pews every Sunday. Very few. Most people just can't or won't live without that income. My old Catholic church does not even ask for 10, they counsel people to aim for 10 total but to spread it around and not give it all to them (ie 2% to the Archdiocese fund etc). We personally opt to do around 10% to all giving, non-religious included. I sit on a board and have some affiliations with other organizations, I could not afford to do 10% to church and then major gifts to other places too. That said, religious people give to their places of worship and to other charities at higher rates of givers and higher levels of giving to percent of income on the whole.

My parents gave a full 10% even when we were pulling change out of the couch for bread. They are part of a declining breed.

[KBecks]

The Biden number astonished me too, except that the article then went on to say that the Bidens were generous donors to their church, which is not included in charitable donations on tax returns. So maybe they gave tens of thousands to their church? No idea.

6.5% of $3 million works out to quite a lot! I thought it was cool that they both shared their tax returns so quickly for public review.

Church donations are tax deductible. If Biden wrote checks, he would receive receipts. I doubt he was tossing tens of thousands via a cash collection basket.

[motherofone]

On taxes we donate about 6%-but that doesn't include a bunch of money we spent and didn't get receipts for. We also donate a lot of time and effort-also no monetary receipts. By the way, the number is .7% not .007%.
I have a friend who makes a big deal of her 10% tithe to her church. She doesn't donate anywhere else-just to a place that benefits her and her fellow church members. They are so proud of their newly remodeled fellowship hall and playground equipment for their Sunday school kids. Looks good on paper.

[KBecks]

As I understand it 10% tithing doesn't all have to go to church, but to charity. So a family may support the church and other causes, totaling 10% among several groups.

[kijip]

I don't understand why donations to his church aren't deductible.

I personally don't think that the money I donate to church should be deductible but it actually is. Not all money donated to churches goes to community needs/purposes. Further, many people would never report religious giving because they feel that it is a deeply personal topic. With rare exception (special funds or sponsorships or funds that will be passed on to another entity and I don't want the cash taken), the money I give at my church is cash in an unmarked envelope. That is just my personal comfort level with giving to church.

[maestramommy]

The Biden number astonished me too, except that the article then went on to say that the Bidens were generous donors to their church, which is not included in charitable donations on tax returns. So maybe they gave tens of thousands to their church? No idea.



I didn't know this. By that standard we would look like the stingiest people ever, because almost all of our giving is to or through our church.

And I guess there's a part of me that wants to ask why any of this (how much public officials give) is any of our d@mn business. Sorry, was that too strongly worded? Someone's giving isn't really a measure of whether or not he/she will come through with what they pledge when they are elected. jmho.

[SnuggleBuggles]

If I sat down and added up all the $ I have spent on things to donate to school I am sure my number would go up. I also don't bother keeping track of the clothes and household items we donate every year (and I fill a few boxes monthly). I donate well less than 10%. I don't like feeling guilted into donating to charity and I don't like the idea of anyone imposing their ideas of what I should give of my income. I give what I feel comfortable with. I give more and more every year. I think the numerous hours I volunteer at school and other places to be very valuable but I can't assign a dollar value to it. I can imagine I am one of the parents at school that has given the most hours this year and I am happy to do it.

Beth

[SnuggleBuggles]

And I guess there's a part of me that wants to ask why any of this (how much public officials give) is any of our d@mn business. Sorry, was that too strongly worded? Someone's giving isn't really a measure of whether or not he/she will come through with what they pledge when they are elected. jmho.

:yeahthat:

Beth

[kijip]

As I understand it 10% tithing doesn't all have to go to church, but to charity. So a family may support the church and other causes, totaling 10% among several groups.


That is the modern take on it, but it originally was 10% to church itself. I take the modern approach, in part because I like a lot of different charities and in part because for a long time before we had kids we did not go to church but still gave as I was raised to do so, so we gave only to non-profits.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

I have a friend who makes a big deal of her 10% tithe to her church. She doesn't donate anywhere else-just to a place that benefits her and her fellow church members.

I actually don't feel that giving to a church should be tax deductible if it goes to the church or to missionary work focused on conversion.

Our giving percentage looks low because we don't tithe and don't belong to any religious organization where we would give money. However, I directly donate to the food bank through pay deductions and have it matched by my employer. 100% is going to an organization that directly helps others reguardless of race/creed/sexual orentation etc.

[DietCokeLover]

We tithe 10% to our church and then give above that to other organizations, so our amount varies per year.

I, too, am very disappointed in Joe Biden. I find it pretty distasteful.

[larig]

Just because he didn't report it doesn't mean he did not give it. Consider the fact that Joe Biden truly believes paying taxes is patriotic (I do too, BTW). If JB believes that it is, then he would not want to write off the donations he made since they would reduce his tax bill. It makes sense if you try to imagine what someone with his belief would do when filing his taxes.

Some people believe churches can do more with their money, and I think JB believes that the government can also do good with his money, so why short-change them?

my giving is very personal. I don't try to quantify it. We let a friend live with us for 2 years for free (not even paying for food). We gave someone else money to cover a security deposit on an apartment so she could get out of an abusive relationship. We send money monthly to my husband's grandmother, who is on a very very small fixed income. We do what we feel we can do and sometimes we can do the most not working through charities, but by acting on our own.

[elliput]

And I guess there's a part of me that wants to ask why any of this (how much public officials give) is any of our d@mn business. Sorry, was that too strongly worded? Someone's giving isn't really a measure of whether or not he/she will come through with what they pledge when they are elected. jmho.

:yeahthat: I don't think it is too strongly worded. A generous monetary gift doesn't necessarily equal a generous heart in my opinion.

[Ceepa]

So there's an argument that Joe did donate a lot of his money and we just can't track it? Do we really think Joe did that? Um, no.

[vonfirmath]

The Biden number astonished me too, except that the article then went on to say that the Bidens were generous donors to their church, which is not included in charitable donations on tax returns. So maybe they gave tens of thousands to their church? No idea.

6.5% of $3 million works out to quite a lot! I thought it was cool that they both shared their tax returns so quickly for public review.

Actually, unless something is odd about their church, it IS included in charitable donations on tax returns. I've been the church treasurer and created the forms we have to send out to every member before tax time so they can include it in their charitable donations portion of their tax return.

And yes, we even have to include tax donated if they put it in an envelope and let us know who it is from (and we included envelopes in every pew to make this easy)

[citymama]

I know nothing about church donations! I was echoing the news article that said that the Bidens were generous donors to their church in addition to the $1800 given to charity - I just made the incorrect assumption that this was b/c church donations aren't tax deductible. Although I should add, I'm a little surprised that they are tax deductible.

[daniele_ut]

:yeahthat: I don't think it is too strongly worded. A generous monetary gift doesn't necessarily equal a generous heart in my opinion.

ITA with Melinda and Erica on this.

FWIW, we tithe 10% to our church AND we claimed it on our taxes for the first time this year. The standard deduction was more advantageous for us in previous years because we didn't own a house.

[Naranjadia]

Just because he didn't report it doesn't mean he did not give it. Consider the fact that Joe Biden truly believes paying taxes is patriotic (I do too, BTW). If JB believes that it is, then he would not want to write off the donations he made since they would reduce his tax bill. It makes sense if you try to imagine what someone with his belief would do when filing his taxes.

Agree with this, because that is my mother in a nutshell. She does not deduct donations.

Now some may say, why would he do this when he knew we would see his return? To that I would say, why would he not throw a big lump of money somewhere just to look good?

Another possibility that crossed my mind is that he might not have wanted to appear to be "buying" support from non-profits, but that is a stretch. Nonetheless, we do have other years of his returns to compare to.

[jk3]

I honestly don't know why this is an important topic. It's personal. Donating time is just as meaningful as donating money.

[hellokitty]

I honestly don't know why this is an important topic. It's personal. Donating time is just as meaningful as donating money.

That's how I feel too. Plus, my DH and I donate our time and items and we don't try to get, "credit" for it. We just do it. Just b/c it's not on our taxes doesn't mean that we didn't donate anything. I don't even know how much we donated on our taxes (I'll have to ask my DH), but I am involved in several non-profit organizations where I am one of the ppl who run it and THAT takes up a large part of my time, I use my own $ to buy snacks and other items for those organizations. I don't claim those on my taxes... I just do it, b/c I want to do it.

[mudder17]

I didn't know this. By that standard we would look like the stingiest people ever, because almost all of our giving is to or through our church.

And I guess there's a part of me that wants to ask why any of this (how much public officials give) is any of our d@mn business. Sorry, was that too strongly worded? Someone's giving isn't really a measure of whether or not he/she will come through with what they pledge when they are elected. jmho.


:yeahthat: Well said! :bighand::bighand::bighand:

[mommylamb]

And I guess there's a part of me that wants to ask why any of this (how much public officials give) is any of our d@mn business. Sorry, was that too strongly worded? Someone's giving isn't really a measure of whether or not he/she will come through with what they pledge when they are elected. jmho.

:yeahthat:

I imagine that whether or not gifts to a church are officially tax deductible would depend on what the church's status is under the tax code, and most are 501c3 status, but I don't know if that's universal.

I totally agree that it is not our business, and that people who already dislike Biden for one reason or another will add this to their list of why he's a bad person. IMO, we don't know the particulars of his situation and I don't think we should judge based on this one piece of info. It's just jumping to conclusions. And I agree that paying taxes is patriotic too... And, boy was I a patriot this year :irked: (just kiddin on the irked face).

[wellyes]

I agree with the PPs who said it's not proof he doesn't donate, just proof he doesn't use those donations as a tax deduction. I don't use mine as a deducation either.

[citymama]

I honestly don't know why this is an important topic. It's personal. Donating time is just as meaningful as donating money.

ITA with this. Public officials are putting their time to do public service - or that's the hope anyway. I'm usually more concerned when CEOs make $15 million a year but donate peanuts. For a family with several kids making less than $300K a year, I agree they could do better but then so could all of us!

[DebbieJ]

Most of our giving is through our church and we deduct it every year. I never put cash in the plate, I always write checks. Our church has an accounting system and issues year-end statements. It is never used for punitive reasons or to shame anyone into giving more.

We aim for 10%, but it is usually a little bit less because we also give hours upon hours upon hours of our time and consider that part of our tithe as well.

[arivecchi]

:

I totally agree that it is not our business, and that people who already dislike Biden for one reason or another will add this to their list of why he's a bad person. IMO, we don't know the particulars of his situation and I don't think we should judge based on this one piece of info. It's just jumping to conclusions. And I agree that paying taxes is patriotic too... And, boy was I a patriot this year :irked: (just kiddin on the irked face).

I agree with this. How much anyone donates/does for charity does not interest me. I am more concerned about what a politicial does in his/her capacity as a pulblic official (what he/she was elected for) than anything they may do in their private life.

[KrisM]

nak.

$1885 is 0.7% of $269,256 not 0.0007%. If you just divide it out, it's 0.007, but to convert to a percentage, you then multiply by 100. Just wanted to get the math right.

Anyhow, we don't donate a ton, but around 5%.

[sste]

We donate next to nothing to public charities. We have some situations with extended relatives that are very expensive for us. We give alot of money to these relatives at various points - - and these are the type of situations that charities would service. I view it as my own "private charity" but I do feel guilty sometimes about not making public donations.

I also struggle with whether I should be making any donations before maxing out our retirements, IRAs, and the 24k max we can contribute to DS's 529. We will not qualify for any public aid, scholarship funds, etc in the future so it makes me nervous not to be maxing out. And we are still paying off our medical school/business school loans. So, our relatively high income doesn't seem that way once everything is said and done.

Do people that give 5 of 10% max out their own retirement/college first? Does having/having paid off student loans affect your charitable giving?

[niccig]

I"m more concerned with a person's intentions rather than the % of their income. I know some people who give large donations, but it's about show, which is why I know how much they give, everyone knows how much their give. Like others we don't list all donations, as it makes no difference to our taxes, so we probably do seem stingy. We don't keep track of receipts or even bother listing them on our taxes.

[niccig]

Do people that give 5 of 10% max out their own retirement/college first? Does having/having paid off student loans affect your charitable giving?

I have a friend that still tithes 10% to the church despite medical bills that they can't out from under. I understand that they want to help others, but they could go under as her work has been cut back. I suppose I would decrease the tithing amount until I got back on my feet financially, as that would ensure years more of tithing. Going bankrupt isn't going to help the church or charities. But she sees it differently, it's her responsibility to tithe 10% first and then deal with their finances.

[mommylamb]

We donate next to nothing to public charities. We have some situations with extended relatives that are very expensive for us. We give alot of money to these relatives at various points - - and these are the type of situations that charities would service. I view it as my own "private charity" but I do feel guilty sometimes about not making public donations.


I don't think you should feel guilty at all. Unfortunately for you, you can't take the tax deduction for the good that you do.

This all makes me think of Dylan's Ballad of a Thin Man:
You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To just give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations

Ha ha... ok, yes I'm a dork. FWIW, I think I remember hearing that Biden was probably the poorest member of the Senate when he was there.

[justlearning]

After reading through this thread, I wanted to add a few comments..

(1) I actually don't feel a need to know what public officials donate either. I'm just surprised by what they did claim as deductions knowing that they would be making the info publicly available and, right or wrong, people would make inferences based upon those numbers.

(2) I haven't read all of the details about Biden's giving but it would seem that he should have claimed zero charitable contributions if he wanted to try to say that as a matter of principle he wasn't going to claim any deductions. Why even claim that small amount of less than $2000? Edited to add that I just did look into it further and came across this site that shows a pattern over many years of Biden claiming very, very small levels of contributions: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/09/biden-releases.html

(3) I realize that contributions can take many forms--time, supplies, etc. Hopefully, we're all giving what we give not for a tax write-off but because we're motivated to help others. I also donate my time and many other things in addition to what actually appears on my taxes. But the point is that my percentage of cash donations that do appear on my taxes is way higher than our highest elected officials who gave many speeches about how we need to reach out to help those around us--with both our time and money. So, that's why I was surprised to see the news stories on their tax info. IMO it makes them APPEAR somewhat hypocritical. It doesn't mean that they are, of course. I'm just saying that I would have imagined that they would have documented more financial generosity on their tax forms to help them appear to be an outstanding example of what they would like all Americans to be doing.

That's all...just thought it was something interesting to discuss.

[lovin2shop]

We donate next to nothing to public charities. We have some situations with extended relatives that are very expensive for us. We give alot of money to these relatives at various points - - and these are the type of situations that charities would service. I view it as my own "private charity" but I do feel guilty sometimes about not making public donations.

I also struggle with whether I should be making any donations before maxing out our retirements, IRAs, and the 24k max we can contribute to DS's 529. We will not qualify for any public aid, scholarship funds, etc in the future so it makes me nervous not to be maxing out. And we are still paying off our medical school/business school loans. So, our relatively high income doesn't seem that way once everything is said and done.

Do people that give 5 of 10% max out their own retirement/college first? Does having/having paid off student loans affect your charitable giving?

This is my concern with tithing. I have a family member who is low income, has no retirement, very little savings, and yet gives thousands of dollars each year to her church. I feel like she is being taking advantage of and it really burns me up.

[Indianamom2]

This is one of the most frustrating things about politicians. They do not (usually) practice what they preach.

Their charitable giving records (Obama and Biden) are pathetic, given what their annual incomes are. When people who have so much are unwilling to give, we end up needing all these expensive government programs instead of the way it should work, where those who can, give to local charities and take care of each other within our communities.

Personally, we have always given at least 10% of our income, every year, no matter how much or little we have made. We give at least 10% to our church and then anything above and beyond that goes to local charities.

That a multi-millionaire cannot give at least as much as a single-income working-class family does is inexcusable.

Christina

[Moneypenny]

This is one of the most frustrating things about politicians. They do not (usually) practice what they preach.

Their charitable giving records (Obama and Biden) are pathetic, given what their annual incomes are. When people who have so much are unwilling to give, we end up needing all these expensive government programs instead of the way it should work, where those who can, give to local charities and take care of each other within our communities.

Christina

How do you know that what is declared on their taxes is all they actually gave?

[Indianamom2]

To Moneypenny, to answer your question (Because I haven't figured out how to add the quote!)

I don't. But how do you know that they gave any more? The point is, you don't either. However, as savvy politicians, they know all the tax benefits of giving and, if they did, I highly suspect they would be reporting it.

What galls me, about Biden in particular, is that he talks a good game....like how it's patriotic to pay our high taxes, yet so many politicians don't even pay their fair share. How dare they preach to me (who has always paid every penny, on time) about what to do when they won't clean their own house?

I realize that charitable giving is different, but the same principles apply. If politicians expect the rest of us to donate and give (our money), then shouldn't they also?

And to those who have posted about giving time being equal to giving money....well, both are needed, and both have their benefits and place, but if everyone only gave time, it wouldn't work. That's why those who have the ability to give monetarily are so desperately needed.

[Moneypenny]

To Moneypenny, to answer your question (Because I haven't figured out how to add the quote!)

To quote someone, just click the "quote" button in the bottom right-hand corner of their post. You can quote the whole thing or cut out what you don't want.

I absolutely admit that I don't know how much they actually gave. I think several PPs have given plausible reasons as to why they might not declare everything on their taxes. DH and I don't declare a cent of what we donate because we don't do it for a tax break.

Maybe they didn't donate a dime more than they claimed, but until you know that for sure, it doesn't seem very reasonable to call them pathetic and inexcusable.

[maestramommy]

This is one of the most frustrating things about politicians. They do not (usually) practice what they preach.

Their charitable giving records (Obama and Biden) are pathetic, given what their annual incomes are. When people who have so much are unwilling to give, we end up needing all these expensive government programs instead of the way it should work, where those who can, give to local charities and take care of each other within our communities.

Personally, we have always given at least 10% of our income, every year, no matter how much or little we have made. We give at least 10% to our church and then anything above and beyond that goes to local charities.

That a multi-millionaire cannot give at least as much as a single-income working-class family does is inexcusable.

Christina

Well, we really don't know how much these two politicians gave, do we? Only what they declared. At some point it doesn't matter how much you declare, it won't make any difference in your deductions. So it seems rather crass to talk as if we know how much they gave, then pass judgement on that amount, as if it were up to us to determine how much they should give.

And while we're on the subject of tithing, I have always gotten the message that how much a family tithes is an extremely private matter. We don't go and ask our fellow parishioners how much they tithe or donate to charity, do we? Of course not, that would be considered very rude. I think we should extend that same courtesy to our elected officials, whether we favor them or not.

[Veronica's Mommy]

We rarely donate monetarily, aside from our church pledge. Last year, we donated to public radio, I think that was it. But we give items. Quite a bit, but we don't deduct on our taxes because we get a better deduction for our child. Now surely that wouldn't apply to the Bidens, but maybe they just don't feel the need to flaunt their contributions; maybe he doesn't feel like he needs the tax breaks and wants to let the government keep the money.
Anyway, it seems to me like it could be a no-win situation. If he gives more than usual (knowing his records would be public), he might be accused of pandering or showing off. Not to mention any contributions he makes may be scrutinized, and no matter what they are, people will have problems with whatever charities he chooses.
So I think it's a personal choice, and if this embarasses him, maybe in the future he will be more generous. But in all honesty, I don't see it as a big deal. There are many ways to give back. JMO.

[kijip]

When people who have so much are unwilling to give, we end up needing all these expensive government programs instead of the way it should work, where those who can, give to local charities and take care of each other within our communities.

As someone that works in the "charitable sector" I don't see it as ideal to have all social program through charities. One, there is a large disparity in what is available to people in need in various areas which seems inherently unfair if you really need the help. Two, sometimes I feel that charitable work is letting government off the hook for stuff government should be doing better. For example, why do we raise money for public schools? Why do charities write grants and take donations and hire people to enrich or just plain make tolerable the quality of schools in an area? Why should there need to be a charity to give shoes to foster kids? Or pay the utility bills of deployed soldier's families? Why should there be a charity to feed senior women whose SS checks are cut deeply on the death of their husbands and now can't afford food? Clearly the answer is these things exist to fill a need, but why is there this need in the first place? Are spotty (in terms of locations served and oversight of financials) charities adequate to fill these needs?

[HannaAddict]

I think the amount of $ donated was a bit low, but he probably was pretty busy running for office and spent a bunch of cash on his run, all completely non-deductible. And I think he's donated quite a bit when you consider how much more money he would have made in the private sector versus as in public office. His income really isn't that huge, all things considered, and he paid a fair chunk in taxes. The Obamas donated several times more (as a percentage) than most American families do - and paid 1/3 of their income in taxes. I don't think the Clintons or most recent Bush family were big charitable donors either, if memory serves. I seem to remember the Clintons even gave old stuff with crazy values, the kind of donations to Goodwill that I don't even track. And I'm a Democrat and thought that was sort of ridiculous.

[kijip]

The Obamas donated several times more (as a percentage) than most American families do - and paid 1/3 of their income in taxes. I don't think the Clintons or most recent Bush family were big charitable donors either, if memory serves. I seem to remember the Clintons even gave old stuff with crazy values, the kind of donations to Goodwill that I don't even track. And I'm a Democrat and thought that was sort of ridiculous.

The $15 Clinton socks and $50 t-shirts or something. Insane. I hate it when people do that. It is so anti-charitable.

John McCain's percentage is the only truly impressive publicized percentage I have heard about recently (Over 20%) BUT that was as a percentage of his income only, with no information on his wife, who has a far larger income. So we don't know the real total there.

And I agree that 6.5% not shabby...it is more than the average by a fair amount.

[kijip]

So there's an argument that Joe did donate a lot of his money and we just can't track it? Do we really think Joe did that? Um, no.

Unless it was all a church tithe and he intentionally keeps it private, I totally think you are right. If he was just not going to bother with itemizing or he prefers to pay the taxes, why itemize the .7% at all?

Still does not change the fact I think he is great.

[elephantmeg]

we tithe 10% and donate sporadically (salvation army buckets, stuff to thrift stores, united way through work etc). Our tithe goes much further than our building thats for sure!

[vonfirmath]

http://philanthropy.com/news/updates/4378/bush-and-cheyney-disclose-details-of-their-2007-charitable-giving

According to this article, in 2007 President Bush and his wife gave 18% of their income to charitable giving, Vice President Cheney and his wife gave 5.5 percent

Here is an article about charitable giving during the time period before he ran for President:
http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v12/i12/12000101.htm -- From 1991 to 1998, the percentages ranged from 2 to 16 percent.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/105283.html -- Year by year breakdown from 1998 to 2002 about President Bush's charitable giving.

Where to go to find the publically released tax returns of the recent Presidents (back to Carter, then Nixon and Franklin Roosevelt): http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/Web/PresidentialTaxReturns?OpenDocument

[citymama]

http://philanthropy.com/news/updates/4378/bush-and-cheyney-disclose-details-of-their-2007-charitable-giving

According to this article, in 2007 President Bush and his wife gave 18% of their income to charitable giving, Vice President Cheney and his wife gave 5.5 percent



Well, 2007 is well into their Vice Presidency. What percentage did they give/declare in 1999, the year of their election campaign? That would be comparing apples and apples; right now the comparison is apples and oranges. Also, it's worth noting just how much more the Bushes, Cheneys and Obamas made/make each year compared to the Bidens. They make remarkably less than the folks with book deals and oil company positions.

I also feel that it's mis-leading for church-donations to be considered tax-deductible as a whole - the charitable works should be, but not the evangelical/missionary aspects.

[niccig]

I'm surprised at how little the Bidens earned, especially when compared to others. $269,256 sounds like a lot, but some AIG executives were getting 10 times that as a bonus. To think of all the connections he has probably made in his political life, he could have quit years ago and worked as a consultant or a lobbyist and earned mega bucks. But he hasn't.

[wellyes]

Joe Biden's income was absolute peanuts compared to the Bushes and Cheneys. Bush and Cheney are very wealthy. Apples and oranges.


When people who have so much are unwilling to give, we end up needing all these expensive government programs instead of the way it should work, where those who can, give to local charities and take care of each other within our communities.
I don't think that's how it should work. I think my taxes should go towards supporting my community. My annual giving is to Doctors Without Borders..... not because I don't want to give locally, but because from what I understand it is best to give a larger amount to one group than a bit here and a bit there.

And I agree with the PPs who said that giving to your local church should NOT be tax deductible and I think it is shameful that it is. If your church has a specific charitable fund -- great, donate to that and get a deduction. But just paying for church upkeep, minister fees, outreach, the church playground, etc. --- that's all fine and good but how is that charity?

[vonfirmath]

Wow. We sure have changed. People used to see value in having churches in the neighborhood, available to help, etc. Now people think it is a selfish thing people do only for themselves.

[niccig]

Wow. We sure have changed. People used to see value in having churches in the neighborhood, available to help, etc. Now people think it is a selfish thing people do only for themselves.

No, I think like any charity I wonder how much is going to help the people they say they will. Some charities have huge administration costs that eat up a lot of the donations. If I was donating to a church, I would want to know what % is for operating costs of the church and what % is going to community services like the food pantry or meals on wheels? Everyone probably has a different idea of what % they would be comfortable with. I know you can check out charities to see what % is admin. costs, I don't know if you can do that with a church.

[ett]

And I agree with the PPs who said that giving to your local church should NOT be tax deductible and I think it is shameful that it is. If your church has a specific charitable fund -- great, donate to that and get a deduction. But just paying for church upkeep, minister fees, outreach, the church playground, etc. --- that's all fine and good but how is that charity?

So if we donate to charitable organizations, should the percentage that goes to administration, etc. not be tax deductible? I don't see how that is different from a church. And what about donating to universities, american cancer society, march of dimes, world wildlife federation, etc. who rely on donations for research and such.

[Ceepa]

Wow. We sure have changed. People used to see value in having churches in the neighborhood, available to help, etc. Now people think it is a selfish thing people do only for themselves.

I'd like ot think this isn't the way our nation is going.

[ett]

No, I think like any charity I wonder how much is going to help the people they say they will. Some charities have huge administration costs that eat up a lot of the donations. If I was donating to a church, I would want to know what % is for operating costs of the church and what % is going to community services like the food pantry or meals on wheels? Everyone probably has a different idea of what % they would be comfortable with. I know you can check out charities to see what % is admin. costs, I don't know if you can do that with a church.

I don't know how it works in other churches but at one of my previous churches, the church budget is available for all members to see.

[wellyes]

So if we donate to charitable organizations, should the percentage that goes to administration, etc. not be tax deductible? I don't see how that is different from a church. And what about donating to universities, american cancer society, march of dimes, world wildlife federation, etc. who rely on donations for research and such.

That makes it sound like the purpose of church is same as the purpose of a charitable organization. But it's not. In my experience, the purpose of church is the spiritual enrichment of its members. A laudable goal, of course. But it's not charity - in my opinion.

[mommylamb]

I also feel that it's mis-leading for church-donations to be considered tax-deductible as a whole - the charitable works should be, but not the evangelical/missionary aspects.

:yeahthat: Totally agree with you! Though, there are lots of 501c3 orgs that don't fit what most people think of as a non-profit (I work for one, and we are tax-deductible, but I would NEVER consider my org a charity).

The thing I always find most sketchy is how some churches (and other 501c3 groups for that matter) do political activities that I really don't think are allowed or are severely limited under the tax code (read lobbying, activities in support of a particular candidate for office).

[larig]

Therefore you are without excuse, every man of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge one another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. (Romans 2:1-2)

[hez]

I don't know how it works in other churches but at one of my previous churches, the church budget is available for all members to see.

Not only is it available to see, but our congregation votes on it annually. The monthly progress against the budget is published monthly with the notes from board meetings and leadership team meetings.

In response to another post, I think experiences differ in how different congregations do mission work (i.e. mission trips to rebuild after disasters or other needs, food pantries, tutoring, etc.), and experiences differ in how those kinds of things are funded. It's hard to paint churches in general with one big brush stroke and say they're just for spiritual enrichment of members. That's just my experience, however.

[ett]

In response to another post, I think experiences differ in how different congregations do mission work (i.e. mission trips to rebuild after disasters or other needs, food pantries, tutoring, etc.), and experiences differ in how those kinds of things are funded. It's hard to paint churches in general with one big brush stroke and say they're just for spiritual enrichment of members. That's just my experience, however.

Yes, it is a gross generalization to say that churches are just for the spiritual enrichment of members. A lot of the missions work of my current church overseas involves medical/dental work, teaching english, etc. Locally they are involved in ESL, running after school programs and summer camp for city kids, etc. I would consider all these things charitable work. Churches seem to get a lot of bad rap these days as there are lots of other 501c3 organizations who don't fit into the "charitable work" category and no one is really commenting on those.

[lovin2shop]

And I agree with the PPs who said that giving to your local church should NOT be tax deductible and I think it is shameful that it is. If your church has a specific charitable fund -- great, donate to that and get a deduction. But just paying for church upkeep, minister fees, outreach, the church playground, etc. --- that's all fine and good but how is that charity?

I agree with this. I think that most churches do great charitable works, but I think that only the funds that go to these works should be deductible. I also think that there should be major reform for others types of 501c3's as well.

[wellyes]

Yes, it is a gross generalization to say that churches are just for the spiritual enrichment of members. A lot of the missions work of my current church overseas involves medical/dental work, teaching english, etc. Locally they are involved in ESL, running after school programs and summer camp for city kids, etc. I would consider all these things charitable work.

Oh, I would too! Of course that sort of mission work and community betterment efforts are charitable and should be treated as such.

And saying "just for the spiritual enrichment of members" almost minimizes how important faith is in people's lives. Faith is so critical to so many people, I'm not attacking it. I'm just saying that church donations are not necessarily charity -- not that church donations are a bad thing at all.

And as an aside re: the Bidens..... I've been told that many people who are not churchgoers who always take a $2500 / year deduction for cash donations to church. I'm told that is the amount you can claim without receipt. Tax fraud, basically. But those people may look more pious than the Bidens on paper. That's one reason why I don't read anything into these sorts of reports.

[ett]

And as an aside re: the Bidens..... I've been told that many people who are not churchgoers who always take a $2500 / year deduction for cash donations to church. I'm told that is the amount you can claim without receipt. Tax fraud, basically. But those people may look more pious than the Bidens on paper. That's one reason why I don't read anything into these sorts of reports.

Wow! I can't believe people would actually do that! DH told me that there are talks of getting rid of the charitable contributions tax deduction. I can see now why they would want to do it. $2500/year is a pretty high dollar amount of cash to donate without a receipt.

[justlearning]

Wow! I can't believe people would actually do that! DH told me that there are talks of getting rid of the charitable contributions tax deduction. I can see now why they would want to do it. $2500/year is a pretty high dollar amount of cash to donate without a receipt.

I didn't even realize that people could take deductions like that without documentation--we've always itemized our deductions. It seems like the better fix is to take away the ability to make that non-itemized deduction instead of taking away the charitable contributions tax deduction all together.

But we are already on the way towards minimizing the tax benefits of contributions with Obama's new proposal to lower the benefits of deductions made by those making $250K or more (i.e., making their deduction worth 25% instead of the higher rate that they pay taxes on). I read that 44% of all charitable contributions are made by the 3% of Americans in that tax bracket. So many charities are worried that they will suffer as a result of Obama's proposal, even though he insists that it shouldn't affect giving (using a philosophical rather than data-driven argument).

It does seem that we're on the path towards having the government take over the work of charities when will have to pay higher taxes and government then controls how the money is allocated to everyone. Frankly, I am saddened to see us go down this path.

[hez]

I didn't even realize that people could take deductions like that without documentation--we've always itemized our deductions.

You're right.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96102,00.html Go about halfway down to find the paragraph about recordkeeping.

You're supposed to have documentation for *every* penny you donate (like a cancelled check or some other form of bank-related document), and you're supposed to have documentation from the charity for anything over $250. Folks claiming $2500 they haven't actually given to anyone are asking for an audit.

[hillview]

We support my parents daily (100%), we support DH's family (sister, mother, brother) on an ad hoc basis -- need new car, fridge, surgery, etc. We give to NPR and to my college. Does not add up to be 1%. I think about what we should do often but end up thinking I should save it in case we need emergency funds for family. Not sure if there is a better answer.
/hillary