Why are they still giving visas?

[vahnessuh]

I'm talking about immigration. A few months ago Microsoft laid off thousands of employees... in this economy. Now explain to me why they are still giving out visas to foreign workers?! How about not giving out work visas to foreign workers and rehiring some of their laid off employees that are US citizens or at least US permanent residents? Or if they don't want to rehire them, I bet you there are thousands, even millions, of people across America that are qualified for those jobs!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a US citizen. I'm a permanent resident here. But even I can understand that before this country can recover from this economic mess, it needs to take care of its own citizens. One way to do this is to give its citizens jobs... not give them Social Security or unemployment benefits.

This really annoys me... Microsoft is in the position to help out citizens of this country by giving them jobs... but what do they do? Give these jobs out to foreign workers! In this economy! Meanwhile, millions of Americans are scrambling to find jobs... including the ones that they laid off. Those people should definitely do something about the situation.

[C99]

I have read that it's really, really, really hard to get an H1-B visa these days, so I am not sure if your information is accurate.

[vahnessuh]

Well, my information came from a friend... whose husband is apparently going to be receiving an H1B visa. Every year, H1Bs have a certain quota (number of visas they give out each year)... which is why it's hard to get one. There are millions of applications each year and only a few hundred thousand are granted.

Apparently this year the quota wasn't reached so everyone who applied gets one... that's what the lawyers at Microsoft told their workers who applied.

I'm thinking the reason why the quota wasn't reached is because more employers these days require US citizenship or permanent residence for their job applicants. But not for Microsoft.

[MontrealMum]

Like many countries, the US will give preferential treatment amongst visa applicants to those with certain skills/training. Up here this is called a skilled worker class application. I don't know what it's referred to in the US since I am a US citizen by right of birth.

I hear you about the laid off workers and my heart goes out to them and their families, but a line-worker from Ford isn't going to have the skills or training to do many of the specialized jobs that people are getting visas for. For example: spoken language recognition for software development, PhD holding engineer who analyses electrical and hydro systems and is among a handful in the WORLD that do so, or an someone in an academic teaching position in a rare field, highly specialized medical researchers. I have foreign friends living and working in the US in these positions on visas. Also, the job competitions for the sorts of positions I mentioned ALWAYS give preferential treatment (and this was happening before the recent crisis) to Americans, then those who already have visas/landed immigrants, and then foreign applicants. If a foreign applicant is the best candidate for the position over and above the first two groups it is the employer that sponsors them for the visa which influences visa selection.

Also, the US, again like many countries, will give preferential visa treatment to spouses of citizens. That is their right having married an American. I would certainly be shocked and offended if people thought I shouldn't have been granted my Canadian permanent residence status and subsequent citizenship because the economy is tanking. This is the country where my husband lives and works (As in, my husband's job, that supports our entire family, is here) and this is where my son lives. If I had not been granted my status I would have been required to return to the US where I had 1) no home 2) no source of income and be separated from my CHILD (who is Canadian) because citizens were losing their jobs? I don't think so. Now, my son does have the right to US citizenship as well, but I have not yet applied for it on his behalf so I would have to leave him here.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with hiring foreign workers for jobs for which there are available, capable, and appropriately skilled US citizens. And I did recently hear an NPR blurb that seemed to infer something like that - but didn't catch the main part so I can't relate the story.

Do you know what sort of position your friend's DH was hired for? There's a good chance that being Microsoft, that this is a specialized and technical position that requires special training and skills. Is your friend an American citizen? If she is, that confers special rights to her husband in terms of immigration. I am not aware of the legalities in the US, but up here that sort of thing is a Charter Right. It would require a constitutional ammendment to take that right away. I think it would be kind of sad, and scary, if government started messing with that.

I am presently in the process of applying for jobs as I have just completed my graduate program. Some of these are in the US. If I were to get one of these jobs, I fully expect to be able to move down with my entire family, and that my husband will be "allowed" to apply for a job and the subsequent, required visa. And that job might be at Microsoft - he's in IT :) Trust me, I know about that laid-off auto worker. I'm from Michigan. He's my cousin.

[kijip]

WRT Microsoft, anecdotally a number of the laid off IT workers in Jan have already been called and offered assignments at the company already (where I live, you can't throw a stone without hitting a Microsoft employee or three so a lot of the people I know work there). WRT H1 B visas- American schools suck at math and science as a whole and many of our advanced university degrees in these fields are actually awarded to foreign students. As long as that remains the same, h1 bs will still be critical to companies like Microsoft. Many of the cuts are Microsoft are not in technical fields, so a laid off marketing exec is not going to be eligible for rehire in many other capacities in the company.

[vahnessuh]

No, my friend is from the same country where I'm from... as well as the husband. He's in the IT field. What's killing me is that another friend of mine (she's from Japan) whose husband is an American citizen (and grew up here in Seattle) is struggling because the husband was laid off from Microsoft. He's also in IT.

Also, another friend (who's Canadian) whose husband also works at Microsoft are very stressed out over the posibility of being laid off. They're both US permanent residents.

I know more people who have been laid off or are worried about being laid off that are either permanent residents or citizens.

MontrealMum: I know about Canada's Skilled Worker program... my family immigrated to Canada based on that. Also, I'm not against spouses of citizens being granted jobs. I got my residency based on that fact. And I do not have any problems about foreign spouses of US citizens getting jobs. It's mainly giving out visas to foreign workers when there really is no reason to.

I might get a lot of flack for saying this... but I think one of the main reasons why employers prefer to hire foreign employees is the fact that they will accept less wages than Americans (well, before the economy that is. Now, anyone will just be happy to have a job).

kijip: Where do you live? I live in Bellevue... and everywhere I turn, I see Microsoft employees. Probably about 50% of the residents in our apartment complex works there. The campus in Redmond is only 3 minutes away too.

[vahnessuh]

Oh, I forgot to say... my friend who's from the same country as me is here on an F2 visa... which is a dependent of an F1 visa (her husband)... a student visa.

[kijip]

kijip: Where do you live? I live in Bellevue... and everywhere I turn, I see Microsoft employees. Probably about 50% of the residents in our apartment complex works there. The campus in Redmond is only 3 minutes away too.

Seattle since I was a small child. Microsoft is definitely the region's new Boeing, when I was growing up everyone was connected to a Boeing employee. Now, it is Microsoft.

While I disagree that foreign workers are flooding in for Microsoft jobs right now, I guess I can see your general point.

Consider though that Microsoft grew its employee base by 30+% in the last 3-4 years. People that observe Microsoft going-ons or follow it for the news outlets or business information have been long predicting that even in the absence of any economic downturn, Microsoft would need to cut the workforce because the level of growth for the number of potentially profitable projects was not sustainable. I know some newcomers to Microsoft and I know a lot of old timers or young retirees. Many of them have figured something was a long time coming because of the general perception of inefficiency on development teams and overstaffing. While these cuts don't come at a great time for the economy or for workers finding other jobs, they are actually perhaps trimming back on hires that never really should have been added in the first place.

[C99]

I might get a lot of flack for saying this... but I think one of the main reasons why employers prefer to hire foreign employees is the fact that they will accept less wages than Americans (well, before the economy that is. Now, anyone will just be happy to have a job).


And they can get away with flouting US labor laws as well, because a foreign worker is less likely to complain to HR about the breach. DH also works in IT for a California-based company, and we both worked in Silicon Valley start-ups, which have always had a large number of foreign workers, for years.

[mommyp]

Every year, H1Bs have a certain quota (number of visas they give out each year)... which is why it's hard to get one. There are millions of applications each year and only a few hundred thousand are granted.

Apparently this year the quota wasn't reached so everyone who applied gets one... that's what the lawyers at Microsoft told their workers who applied.

I'm thinking the reason why the quota wasn't reached is because more employers these days require US citizenship or permanent residence for their job applicants. But not for Microsoft.

I just wanted to point out that the quota for H1Bs is much lower than you stated, only 65,000 for companies each year (since 2004 - it was temporarily raised for 3 years before that). A couple years ago the quota was reached in 2 DAYS, so the fact that the quota won't be reached this year means that companies are not hiring foreign workers. (Probably because they're just not hiring, even highly skilled workers in some areas, like biotech.) Universities are exempt from the quota, but as Molly stated, they have to follow a very strict guideline to prove that the foreign candidate is the best one, that is how my DH and I got our jobs.

[MommyofAmaya]

IME, many companies are less than enthusiastic about hiring H-1B foreign workers not only b/c of the high upfront costs of obtaining one, but because of the requirement that the workers are paid the prevailing wage, as set by the Department of Labor. The prevailing wages are often much higher than the U.S. workers are being paid. For example, my dear friend, an immigration attorney, could not find a law firm to sponsor her H1B b/c immigration attorneys make far less than other "private practice" attorneys. The prevailing wage was much too high. This happens in many skilled "industries". Thus, she had to go back to Korea where I doubt her Texas law license will do her much good.

[egoldber]

IME, many companies are less than enthusiastic about hiring H-1B foreign workers not only b/c of the high upfront costs of obtaining one, but because of the requirement that the workers are paid the prevailing wage, as set by the Department of Labor.

:yeahthat:

When I was a hiring manager it was practically impossible to get corporate to agree to an H1B visa candidate because of the costs involved.

[salsah]

i asked dh for his prospective on this because he is always the only white person on his team. in some industries, it is easier to find foreigners who are more qualified than citizens. however one thing that dh noticed is that even when a foreign applicant is up against an equally qualified citizen, the foreign applicant is likely to get the job because he is from the same country as the hiring manager. just recently dh interviewed someone and even though he strongly felt that the candidate was not qualified, he still got the job. dh said that when he discussed it with his manager, it was clear that his manager chose him over the better candidates because they were from the same country.

i agree that in our current economic climate, the number of visas should be reduced and the 6 yr expiration should be reduced. however while that might be best for our national economy, corporations are doing what is best for them. even if visas were restricted, companies would find ways around it. recently cisco postponed a lay off until after a round for visa applications so that they wouldn't look bad (instead of laying off citizens and then requesting visas to hire foreigners -- it would seem like they are replacing the citizens with the foreigners). the company that dh works for employs people abroad. on dh's last project, some of the members of his team worked and lived abroad. they don't need visas that way.

[C99]

the company that dh works for employs people abroad. on dh's last project, some of the members of his team worked and lived abroad. they don't need visas that way.

good point. what's worse: keeping the jobs here so at least there's some benefit (in the form of taxes) to the u.s. or outsourcing them to offshore labor? DH's company has a lot of sustaining engineers in India and E. Europe.

[GaPeach_in_Ca]

the company that dh works for employs people abroad. on dh's last project, some of the members of his team worked and lived abroad. they don't need visas that way.

ITA with this. I like the H1-B visas. Most people I know here on H1-B visas are working to become permanent residents and then citizens. This is good for US. These are highly educated engineers here (as am I :p). They pay taxes, buy property, spend money, etc. all in the community.

I work for a large company and we have members of our teams in Bangalore, Costa Rica, etc. I much prefer to work with people face-to-face.