Vent/advice needed/am I the only one? (long)

[jse107]

Perhaps this should go in the Bitching Post, but I never post there so here goes....

I apologize that this is so long.

Background:
Owen has been attending the same preschool (Goddard) for a year and a half. Due to some issues that we have been having with him at both home and school we saw a psychologist in November. He was having a lot of meltdowns and home over things he couldn't articulate. He also was "wetting" himself, sometimes without even realizing it. I was concerned that he may have ADHD (it runs in my family), however after observing him and doing some questionnaires, she said he has significant depression/irritability and anxiety. She suggested an OT eval. for Sensory Dysfunction. I wasn't surprised to hear this, as I was also a bit suspicious that he had SPD. We've been taking him to OT therapy since January with reasonably good results--more so at home. Owen's temperment is pretty sensitive on top of the SPD, and he can be prone to whining and crying meltdowns. This has really improved, but he's still having some difficulty at school.

Owen is almost the youngest in his classroom, so I am probably unfairly setting expectations for his behavior. (He's not going to Kindergarten next year, we're going to hold him one more year.) However, he is still having trouble keeping his hands to himself, particularly on the playground. The Director assured me that this is normal developmentally, and not to stress over it. He's also growing out of his nap (like most of the kids) and having troubling being quiet during nap (1pm-3pm). He tends to talk to the other kids, play around, and be too loud. Several times he's had to go to the classroom next door.

Yesterday, his (brand-new and young) teacher pulled me aside at pick-up to say that Owen had a very rough time at naptime, and the Assitant Director had to come talk to him. Apparently he was throwing his blanket (lovey) up in the air when he should have been napping. He received several warnings and then the teacher took the blanket away. Well, as one might imagine, this set him off. He got up, kicked two bookshelves, threw something (?), yelled, cried, and pushed over several chairs. He has never behaved this way at home. He's tantrumed, yes, but not ever kicked anything or thrown things. The teacher and I agreed that he is looking for a reaction from the adult--he's really not "out of control." He's also been kind of defiant at times--telling the teachers "no" when he doesn't like what they're saying. Of course if/when he does that at home, he gets a time out. This is probably the third report of him "chair-tipping." It is clearly for attention, but so inappropriate. When asked why he behaved that way, he said he saw it on TV. Well, he only watches Playhouse Disney and occassionally Discovery Channel or Animal Planet. So, I find it hard to believe that he's picked it up at home.

While I really like most aspects of the preschool, they have limited disciplinary choices. The "corporate" office doesn't allow time-outs or anything else that might single-out a child. While the idea is nice, Owen could really use a time-out once in a while!!!

I am so disappointed in his behavior. It's embarassing to feel like I have "that kid" that is a pain to have in class. Owen can be so loveable, compassionate, and caring. He's pretty smart and very verbal. I just feel so frustrated. We have tried many things, but I'm having a hard time finding the right balance of discipline without creating too much anxiety for him.

Part of my issue is that I work as a school counselor and carry too much of my job home with me. I don't want to be "that parent" that ignores issues or says "not my kid," but then sometimes I feel like I over-identify with the staff and don't advocate for what's best for Owen.

Really, I think they probably could have done a better job intervening before the nap situation got to that point, and taking his security blanket was clearly going to trigger him. That said, it's still not okay for him to behave that way!

Any words of wisdom?

[anamika]

Sorry you're going through this. I don't have much experience with the issues you mentioned but my DD is the same age as Owen and she also refuses to nap at school. Her school allows her to talk quietly with other friends who are not napping or even draw/play/read quietly. Can his school do something similar?
I don't get what the big deal about throwing his blankie is - at least it's quiet! (Or maybe I missed something).
I would hate to be forced to lie down for 2 hrs at that age (at my age - I would kill to be able to do that in the day!).
I'm sure you'll get better advice from other posters.

[bubbaray]

I recently posted here about my DD#1 and the book The Explosive Child was recommended. I am still just starting it (we've been sick), but it looks really good.

FYI, is he on any meds? We have pulled DD#1 off her asthma meds and allergy meds (mainly b/c she was puking for days) and her behavior is better. THen again, it could be because she is wiped from being sick for so long....

GL!

[JTsMom]

Do you think maybe another school might be a better match for him? I know that around here, from what I've been told by some people in the know, Goddard schools are much more structured and focused on academics than my DS could handle. Maybe it's just too much pressure on him, especially being younger than most of the class? Obviously, I don't know your child, so I'm just guessing here.

[kijip]

Honestly to me the thing that jumps out is they are expecting 4 and 5 year olds to have a naptime for 2 hours. I think 4 and 5 year olds that nap that long are pretty rare. At T's school when he was 4, nap time was 1 hour and 15 minutes and they had stations set up in the next room for quiet play for non-nappers. There were more non-nappers than nappers by the middle of the year. I think any non-napping child could be "that child" if given nothing to do for 2 hours wide awake. Make that child some one with the challenges you describe your son may have, and it doesn't seem out of what would be expected, normal behavior at all when asked to be quiet with nothing to do for 2 hours. That does not make it easier to handle but frankly I would consider if the setting with a 2 hour nap is feasible for him. And if he is not sleeping now, he is not going to get any better about sleeping next year when you hold him out of kindergarden. Is there a way they could give him something else to do during nap time? Or is there another school he could attend. My son is 5 and any daytime sleeping for him is LOOOOONNNNGGG gone.

[JamiMac]

Yes, I agree that the naps could be a problem. My DD's have both gone to the 4 and 5 year old programs at our Catholic church and they have not done any nap times. Four year olds go 3 days a week from 9-2 and Pre-K is 4 days a week from 9-2 and a half day on Friday. At that age I think kids benefit a lot more from outdoor playtime, and indoor freeplay than from naps. I know the napping would not have worked for either of my girls at that age. Are there any other good options on schools for you?

[mom2one]

I know every school is different, but I had a terrible experience with Goddard. I view it more as a daycare than a preschool, teachers were being replaced all the time (even though I was told otherwise at registration) and the kids did not really look that happy. Can he go to a preschool?

My child was very unhappy at Goddard and was trying very hard to tell me this, but due to his young age he could not, by acting out is how he got my attention that something was wrong.

I agree with PP about naps. My son (age 5) does not nap at all. They have a 30 minute quiet time on mats at school and are allowed to read books.

I guess my advice would be to try different things. Keep us posted with what happens.

[Tondi G]

My just turned 4 year old doesn't nap anymore unless he isn't feeling well or we had a LONG day somewhere and he knocks out in the car. I think it's totally unreasonable for them to expect a child to sit quietly for 2 hours!!! At DS#1's preschool they had nap time but for those kids who didn't nap anymore they had quiet activity time in another room... some of the kids would play dinosaur memory games or color or work in their workbooks etc.

I don't think you have "that" kid, I think he is showing them that he doesn't need a nap anymore and they need to find a quiet activity for him to do instead!

[Percycat]

My son attended Goddard preschool for several years. He stopped taking naps at 3 and had difficulty with the nap requirement. I had several conversations with the director and teachers to learn what the actual requirements were. In Missouri, there is a requirement for nap or quiet time for licensed preschools, however it is not as long as the Goddard policy. You might become informed as to the actual nap requirements before you begin your discussions with the school. We insisted that the school find some accomodation and not require our son to take a nap longer than the state requirement. It is unreasonable to expect a child to remain still for 1-2 hours in a group setting when they do not need or take naps and it is unfair to the children who do need a quiet environment for naps.

Our accomodation when he was little was to have a lunchbox with activity books, puzzles, etc. that he could only play with during nap time. When he grew older (your son's age), many of the students no longer took naps. All the students were required to rest on the cots for 15-20 minutes quietly so the children who wanted to take a nap could go to sleep and then they were allowed to do quiet activities in the classroom. The front of our school (I think many of the schools have a similar floorplan) has additional computers, books, and other manipulatives. Small groups of children who do not nap were allowed to go to the front of the school with a teacher and do activities during naptime. I think during naptime the ratio requirements were different, or perhaps because naptime is in the afternoon the number of students is fewer and there were extra teachers who could take on this front of school function.

As far as time out goes, our school did use time out. I remember seeing kids sitting in time out during recess and my son was sent to the directors office twice during naptime (and did not get to do any of the front of the school activities) because he misbehaved during naptime.

Good luck.
angela

[ellies mom]

It does sound like a lot of this is stemming from an unrealistic nap policy. We had Ellie in a college based program. I was really worried about how she would do at naptime because she isn't much of a napper either. But they handled it really well. For nap time, they combined two classrooms. The kids that needed to nap, napped in one room with one teacher and the kids that did not need to nap stayed in the "awake" room with a full range of activities. As kids woke up, they moved to the awake room. It seemed pretty win-win to me. The kids who needed to nap, had a quiet, slightly darker area to do it, and the kids who did not nap were allowed to be awake. If a child was clearly in need of a nap, they would encourage them to take one. I know there were a few times when they had my daughter lay down to rest.

The idea that they expect a child who doesn't nap to lay quietly for 1-2 hours baffles me. Yeah, in that situation I don't see that you have "that kid" either. Instead, I have to wonder why the school thinks that is age appropriate.

[jse107]

They are moving to no-naps for the two 4 year-old rooms. It just hasn't happened yet.

My bigger concern, though, is really his whole outburst about the whole thing. Am I over-reacting? Or, is he just trying to say that he's done with the whole nap thing? About half the time he does fall asleep for 45 minutes.

How would you have handled the outburst if it were your own child?

[boltfam]

Kudos to you for your remarkably unbiased opinions and for how you can see both Owen's and his teacher's perspective. My DS is only 18 mo. so I don't know much about nap times for older kids, but 2 hrs. does seem like a long time to expect them to be still.

I can also see the school's standpoint about protecting themselves by not really disciplining, but like you said, kids often need a "time out". They have to know what the boundaries are, and it sounds like the school is failing to set clear ones.

Good luck!

[SnuggleBuggles]

Every single child has some issue. I always thought it was just my child but by talking to other parents I found that just wasn't true. Some are very well behaved at school but not at home. Some are the same every where and some are worse at school. Perfect just doesn't happen and all parents have some frustration with their child.

Is there any background stress bothering him, do you think? Illness or allergies can really cause behavior problems still for my little guy (I know he isn't feeling well when they tell me he had a rough day). He had a lot of stress when he was learning to potty train and that resulted in behavior trouble. There can be so many factors. Not only that but they are still so young and just trying to figure out how to handle things.

Something I have learned in hindsight is to just not get too worked up about things. Yes, take appropriate actions but know that things will work out. My ds had a rough go at school all the way through his 1st month of kindergarten. Since then things have been going well. He has occasional bad days but it's gotten so much better. He has self control now. He knows how to take a deep breath and calm down...he has coping skills to help him that he just didn't have when he was 3-early 5 years old.

I think your school needs to come up with a plan for him during nap time. Honestly, throwing his lovey in the air hardly seems like something they need to free out about, imo. It's hard enough to have to sit there and be quiet for that long. I thing going to the other non napping room makes sense. Lots of schools offer provisions for kids that have outgrown naps.

Beth

[SnuggleBuggles]

They are moving to no-naps for the two 4 year-old rooms. It just hasn't happened yet.

My bigger concern, though, is really his whole outburst about the whole thing. Am I over-reacting? Or, is he just trying to say that he's done with the whole nap thing? About half the time he does fall asleep for 45 minutes.

How would you have handled the outburst if it were your own child?

To be honest, I think you are overreacting. It was a one time thing. All kids have overreactions and melt downs. We just need to remind them about what is appropriate and maybe talk them through other ways they could handle situations where they feel so mad and frustrated.

I used to cry and get really bent out of shape when he had rough day but I know that wasn't helpful. Now, I feel like I have some better skills to help him stay calm and in control.

Beth

[egoldber]

Every single child has some issue. I always thought it was just my child but by talking to other parents I found that just wasn't true. Some are very well behaved at school but not at home. Some are the same every where and some are worse at school. Perfect just doesn't happen and all parents have some frustration with your child.

This is so true. And preschools seem to have a knack for making you feel really wretched and that your child's behavior is the worst in the world.

I think the nap policy is pretty unrealistic. Many, many kids haven't napped in YEARS by 4 years old.

[SnuggleBuggles]

This is so true. And preschools seem to have a knack for making you feel really wretched and that your child's behavior is the worst in the world.



There was a boy in ds1's kindergarten last year and I would have sworn that he was the model child. He was smart, articulate, seemed to be well behaved...but I found out that he made many visits to the principal's office for behavior. I never, ever would have guessed it. Once I heard that it really sunk in that even though it might seem like it is just my child that the odds are it isn't!

Beth

[o_mom]

They are moving to no-naps for the two 4 year-old rooms. It just hasn't happened yet.

My bigger concern, though, is really his whole outburst about the whole thing. Am I over-reacting? Or, is he just trying to say that he's done with the whole nap thing? About half the time he does fall asleep for 45 minutes.

How would you have handled the outburst if it were your own child?

I think the nap requirement is a big part of it, but that has been covered already. Does he react like this all the time or is it an isolated incident? DS1 (5.5) still has outbursts, though the true knockdown drag-out ones have decreased dramatically in the last year. DS2 has them more frequently at 4 and DS3 (2) has them multiple times a day.

As far as the actual outburst - I think that they can enforce some boundaries without time out. They can talk to him, reflect feelings and other gentle techniques. If he is truely tantruming, which it sounds like you are not sure, then really just letting him get it out and keeping him safe is about all they can do in the moment. Any work on control needs to be done outside of the moment. If there he has not been taught how to deal with his emotions, then it isn't fair to expect him to know it. Not every child can pick up these things without help.

For what *you* should do... I think Beth (egoldber) has said it well in the past, that you should not make the school's discipline problems your own. If they cannot use time out, etc, then they need to find an appropriate way to deal with it. I find it hard to believe that Goddard, with all their rules, down to the 23 steps to change a diaper, doesn't have a whole bag of tools to use. I also think that they should be focusing on setting him up to suceed and expecting a 4.5 yo to lay quietly for 2 hrs is not doing that.

[boolady]

I know that around here, from what I've been told by some people in the know, Goddard schools are much more structured and focused on academics than my DS could handle.

I guess this could depend on the school, but Goddard is supposed to be play-based learning, and that has been my experience with DD's school.

Also, and she is only 2.5, there are kids that don't nap, and they are not expected to sleep if they're not tired, they are permitted to sit or lay on their nap mat and look at books or play quietly with a doll or small toy. DD has told me on more than one occasion that when she only slept for a short period of time, her teacher brought her some books to look at on her mat until more kids woke up. Maybe things like this are not consistent school-to-school since it's a franchise, I don't know. We've found our Goddard to be very accomodating and have really liked all of her teachers. We haven't had the turnover problems someone else referenced.

Is the requirement that he be asleep, or that he not be roaming the room?

When we were looking for daycares/schools, we did not visit any that had a time-out policy. Maybe we just didn't experience that, I don't know.

[JTsMom]

My bigger concern, though, is really his whole outburst about the whole thing. Am I over-reacting? Or, is he just trying to say that he's done with the whole nap thing? About half the time he does fall asleep for 45 minutes.

How would you have handled the outburst if it were your own child?

How would I handle it? I'd keep him in therapy, and make sure I wasn't missing something else, b/c to me, the fact that this is all out of character for him, and the fact that that anxiety and depression were diagnosed, coupled with the wetting his pants would be making my radar ping like crazy. Are his sensory needs being met at school? DS does a lot of banging and crashing when he is very stressed. (My DS has sensory issues- can't remember if I already mentioned that.) Is there any sort of sensory diet in place for him?

Being in a school setting puts a lot of pressure on kids- they have to inhibit behaviors that are allowed at home. For a kid with SPD, this is even more of a challenge. So I can imagine him trying really hard to stay quiet, and stay in one place, and that he probably felt like tossing the lovey was fine, and helping him meet the rule of staying quiet. Then it was taken away (and I know they warned him, but it doesn't always sink in well at that age, kwim?), and his world kind of fell apart. Is it acceptable behavior to kick/yell/knock over chairs? Of course not- but I could see how it would happen in this case. He's still little, and controlling those realllllly big feelings is hard- even for adults.

How would you have handled a meltdown like that at home? Do you think it would have even happened at home? Why or why not? Is there something at home that he's getting that helps him enough that he doesn't need to act out that way? If so, how can you help him get that at school?

Also, just on a mom-to-mom level, what you said about not wanting to be "that parent" really hits home with me. I've said it countless times myself, and I put a ton of pressure on myself. I think I (and you too ;) ) need to give myself more of a break and realize that I'm (and you are) doing the best we can, and that it's probably a much bigger deal to me (and you) than it is to anyone else. :hug:

[brittone2]

Several things jump out at me, and many of thse were already mentioned:

DS stopped napping at 3 (I encouraged him stopping actually because bedtime was just getting too late). Regardless, by 4-5 years old, not all kids will need a nap.

For a kid w/ a SPD, it is going to be hard to be still anyway. Perhaps they can offer some sort of alternative naptime (quiet) activity, possibly something sensory?

Echoing JTsMom, Has the OT given any input into a sensory diet that could be incorporated into the school?

In terms of different behavior at school vs. home, that is true of many kids. However, with a child with a SPD, I'd say it is far *more* likely to see a difference at home vs. school, because school itself can present a myriad of sensory challeges (too loud, too busy, too bright, too many people in your space, not understanding you are getting in the space of others, not enough opportunity to move around or get out some of the sensory seeking behavior).

I would have the OT consult with the teaching staff, to be honest. If a sensory diet and more sensory opportunities were presented in school, that could be helpful. Is the staff familiar with SPD? Do they understand how this could affect behavior? How it might be hard for him to be still, or that some kids with SPD may be more prone to hitting/biting depending on if they have issues w/ kids being in their space or getting into the personal space of others? It seems like there needs (IMO) to be a more comprehensive strategy for school that integrates his needs. I'd talk with the OT about what could be incorporated into the classroom. Perhaps some recommended reading or handouts for the staff?

[jse107]

You ladies rock! Thanks for making me feel better and that I'm not the only one.

We do a sensory diet at home. It's really helped with the crashing into things and meltdowns.

I think I need to take a deep breath and cut both Owen and myself a break. For me, sometimes that's easier said than done!

[clc053103]

My DS also went to a Goddard, and while I was there I didn't think it was SO bad (though I could not stand the owner), but now that we are "out", I realize just how bad it was.

I think one of the reasons they "complain" about our children (I say complain b/c they vented about our kids with no understanding of their behaviors or ideas on how to handle it proactively) is that they have a rotating door of teachers without degrees or formal educational training (the occasional CDA the exception). DS's head teacher's only education was a few semesters of business at a community college. how does that prepare her to not just babysit, but EDUCATE?

To address Goddard procedures: As for naps, I think that sounds too long a quiet time for that age. I think our Goddard at that age was 1 hour. I am 100% positive that my Goddard (I'm in PA- where Goddard corporate is based, there was even the child of a corporate director in my DS's class) had a time out policy too-1 minute per age of child. So it is allowed by corporate. If you have a question about Goddard policies, call 1-800-Goddard. It's anonymous, you can ask anything (I learned that from a friend who owns a school). I called when I was told by our local Goddard that Crocs were "banned by corporate". It was a big fat lie- they chose to do it locally, it was not mandated by Goddard, they just used them as a scapegoat.

I agree with PP. I also didn't realize how bad it was and how much DS didn't like it until we were gone. Even his current teachers (all degreed) could not believe that DS ever went to school, they specifically asked me if his prior school was a "free for all".

I also like PP spoke to parents of who I thought were quiet, sweet, easy to deal with kids, and yep- they complained all the time about their kids too!!!!!

If it is really concerning you, ask to sit down with the director to discuss their policies and how they can be adapted to the needs of your child! IF they aren't willing to tailor things to meet you and your families needs and concerns, then I would definitely look for another school.

[cuca_]

I agree with everyone else that 2 hours nap/quiet time is too much at your DS's age. My oldest DD has SPD and there is no way that she would be able to lie down and stay still for 30 minutes, let alone 2 hours. As someone else suggested, I would have your OT visit the school and observe DS, and she will probably give you and the school suggestions on how to make his day easier. As someone mentioned (I think Beth), school is often hard for kids with SPD. This is the case for my DD who is sensory seeking and has ADHD. She has a lot of trouble with everything going on around her.

I also wanted to tell you that we had a similar episode with my DD2 in terms of acting out. She was having some trouble in the classroom (apparently getting very emotional), and on one occasion she spit at the teacher and I think tried to kick her or something (I forget the exact details - probably blocked them). It was very out of character, and the teacher reacted in a very improper way in my opinion. Long story short, after posting here and getting some great advice I switched DD to a different classroom. It's the best thing I could've done. We went from having the teacher almost constantly complain about DD, to having a teacher who frequently tells us how great she is and how happy she is to have her in the classroom. It is amazing the difference it has made. I think the problems stemmed from not being in the right setting (due to teacher vs. dd's personality and clickish behavior from other girls).

Both DD1's issues and my experience with DD2 have cemented my feeling that I could care less if the school/teachers think I am "that kind of parent". I am my children's advocate and know them best. I am more than willing to work with the school/teachers and try to be involved and available, but by the same token I often speak my mind both when I am pleased with something and when I am not.

All that to say, that I think you should talk to them about the 2 hour nap requirement, inform them that it is not adequate for your child and ask for some sort of accomodation. I would also look into the possibility of switching programs, if they are not willing to work with you.

Good luck!

HTH

[jse107]

Well, I requested info. from a nearby preschool that every parent I've talked to loves. I am hoping they still might have space for Owen next year in the transitional K program. I've e-mailed the admissions director for a tour (assuming space is there).

I just want someone who works with Owen to love him!

[clc053103]

Well, I requested info. from a nearby preschool that every parent I've talked to loves. I am hoping they still might have space for Owen next year in the transitional K program. I've e-mailed the admissions director for a tour (assuming space is there).

I just want someone who works with Owen to love him!

I honestly don't think that's too much to ask at all!!! I hope you find a spot- and a fit- at this school! Good luck!