Are the teachers in your town in a Union?

[Corie]

This is a new concept for me. Alot of the towns here in Rhode Island
have teachers' unions.

This was not the case in my area in Texas.

[bubbaray]

Yup, all public school teachers in our province are unionized. The teachers union here is VERY powerful and they do strike. During the school year. Niiiiice.

[ha98ed14]

Yes. We're in SoCal, and all the districts here are unionized. CA and RI are pretty liberal states overall. Liberals tend to be pro-union or at least union-tolerant. TX is more conservative. Maybe that is why.

[nfowife]

I taught in CA and FL and was a union member in both states. The union in CA was very strong, and we did do a one day strike. I used the union's counsel once in a dispute with my principal my first year of teaching, so I was glad to have that representation. In FL, it was not as powerful, but still there if we needed the help.

[mommylamb]

Teaching is one of the few professions where unions are still relatively strong. My mother is a teacher, and a member of her union. The administration tries to walk all over them in her district, so they need that union contract.

ETA: In her district, they never had a strike.

[egoldber]

Our district has a teacher's union. I thought all states had teachers unions, but I guess not....

[vludmilla]

I thought there were teacher unions in all states too. We have unions in New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut in all towns.

[pinay]

I've only taught in CA, but I was also under the impression that most public school teachers were unionized nationwide.

[almostamom]

I was part of the union every year that I taught. I was also a site union rep for a number of years. I'm in AZ.

[WatchingThemGrow]

Nope. For some reason, I think it is illegal in NC. After teaching in FL and having an administrator as my own mother, I'm glad they aren't here. I felt like a lot of people had a "griping" kind of attitude, which bred hostility. I feel like the administrators here that I've worked with at least, are in tune with their teachers' needs.

[swrc00]

I have only ever taught in VA and GA. Both are right to work states and do not have unions. I have been in teacher organzations in both states but they are not unions. They do not strike. Typically one in the state is affilated with the NEA and one is not. I am only a member of one because it provides legal counsel if something ever happens.

[LD92599]

Yes, all of them. We're in NJ. And yikes the unions make our taxes crazy high!

[neeleymartin]

i teach in MA and we are part of a union. i believe that all of MA is.

[schums]

We're in Michigan, and all public teachers here are unionized by school district. Technically, the unions are legal, but it is against the law for them to go on strike. Doesn't stop them, nor do the courts penalize them (other than ordering them go back to work), but it is technically illegal for them to strike.

[scoop22]

i teach in pa and yes we are part of a union.
my sister taught in va. and a friend of mine is in Va and no they are not part of a union. i thought all school districts were until i started looking for jobs.

[egoldber]

I have only ever taught in VA and GA. Both are right to work states and do not have unions.

Being in a right to work state does not preclude unions. I am in a VA district and there is definitely a teacher's union.

[Canna]

I grew up in Texas and now live in CT where yes, teachers are unionized. I think unions are generally a good thing for education. Here in CT teachers are paid much more of what I would consider a living wage and there are more monetary incentives for things like increasing your education. My mother's experience as a teacher in Texas suggested to me that they are generally poorly compensated (especially in that the pay scale just doesn't go anywhere for more experienced teachers - starting salaries in CT and Texas are similar). Growing up I thought really "Why would someone talented go into teaching when you could do practically anything else and be paid so much more!" It sounds awful, but I'm not kidding. I got the sense that education was not highly valued.

[Corie]

Our district has a teacher's union. I thought all states had teachers unions, but I guess not....


unless they were having private meetings and I wasn't invited! :)

I taught in Texas and we didn't have a union. I'm pretty sure that my
mom was not in a union either. She was a long-time teacher in NW Ohio.

[Corie]

I grew up in Texas and now live in CT where yes, teachers are unionized. I think unions are generally a good thing for education. Here in CT teachers are paid much more of what I would consider a living wage and there are more monetary incentives for things like increasing your education. My mother's experience as a teacher in Texas suggested to me that they are generally poorly compensated (especially in that the pay scale just doesn't go anywhere for more experienced teachers - starting salaries in CT and Texas are similar). Growing up I thought really "Why would someone talented go into teaching when you could do practically anything else and be paid so much more!" It sounds awful, but I'm not kidding. I got the sense that education was not highly valued.



I just looked at the base salary for a teacher in my old school district
in Texas where I taught. The base salary is approx. $46,500.

The base salary for my new town here in Rhode Island is approx. $72,500.

[tylersmama]

I'm pretty sure that my
mom was not in a union either. She was a long-time teacher in NW Ohio.
Are you sure, Corie? As you know, my mom is also a long-time teacher in NW Ohio, and I'm pretty sure she *is* in a union (or was, before she retired). I can ask next time I talk to her. They may not have actually called it a union (I think it's the teacher's association), but for all intents and purposes, that's what it was/is.

[Corie]

Are you sure, Corie? As you know, my mom is also a long-time teacher in NW Ohio, and I'm pretty sure she *is* in a union (or was, before she retired). I can ask next time I talk to her. They may not have actually called it a union (I think it's the teacher's association), but for all intents and purposes, that's what it was/is.


Hey Gaye,

This would have been over 25 years ago!! And my mom is gone so I can't
ask her. I could be wrong though.

[MamaMolly]

I've taught in GA and in IL.

In GA I *had* to be in a union, it was part of my teaching contract. It was how the state avoided paying insurance on teachers, it required us to join the union so the union paid. And it was a weak, weak union. At the time I left teaching the BIG EXCITING thing that the union had done was pas a law that all teachers got a minimum 30 minute lunch break. Whopee.

When I went to teach in IL it was hard to get a job if you were in a union. They advised student teachers and new teachers not to join until they were tenured in their jobs. Clearly the IL union was MUCH more powerful! ;)

[jjordan]

I just looked at the base salary for a teacher in my old school district
in Texas where I taught. The base salary is approx. $46,500.

The base salary for my new town here in Rhode Island is approx. $72,500.

Compare the cost of living and those two figures may not be as different as they at first appear... For example, how much will a typical starter home cost in RI vs the school district in TX? I would guess that for *most* areas in RI, $72,500 will get you a comparable standard of living as $46,500 will get you in *most* areas in TX.

[gatorsmom]

Wisconsin has them and they are strong. My mom had to join one and was member until the year she quit (5 years ago). I'm not sure about Minnesota.

[wellyes]

I just looked at the base salary for a teacher in my old school district
in Texas where I taught. The base salary is approx. $46,500.

The base salary for my new town here in Rhode Island is approx. $72,500.

I live in MA, moved from RI. I have always been impatient with the 'teachers are so underpaid!!' talk.... I have always felt that teachers are very fairly compensated. But I see that I'm used to much more highly compensated teachers than in some other parts of the country.

While $46,500 does get you a LOT more in TX than in does in RI..... I work for a private company that has a Providence office and a Dallas office. The payscale is higher for New England - but not anywhere near 50%+ more like the teachers' difference is!

[citymama]

Nope. For some reason, I think it is illegal in NC. After teaching in FL and having an administrator as my own mother, I'm glad they aren't here. I felt like a lot of people had a "griping" kind of attitude, which bred hostility. I feel like the administrators here that I've worked with at least, are in tune with their teachers' needs.

That's not entirely accurate. School teachers' unions are not illegal in NC or any other state. In fact, they exist in NC and have many members. But labor relations for public sector workers are established by state law, and NC is one of the few states that does not permit full collective bargaining or require local school boards to recognize unions. Most others states do (incl TX).

I'm not one for depending on the kindness of administrators or management, having been management for much longer than a member of the rank-and-file. As the old bumper sticker goes: "Unions. The folks who brought you the weekend."

[Corie]

Compare the cost of living and those two figures may not be as different as they at first appear... For example, how much will a typical starter home cost in RI vs the school district in TX? I would guess that for *most* areas in RI, $72,500 will get you a comparable standard of living as $46,500 will get you in *most* areas in TX.


Oh, believe me, we totally realize this!! We did lots of research
about the cost of living increase before we moved here.

[DebbieJ]

When I worked at a HS in CA, yes, we were union.

[kijip]

Yes, we have unionized teachers. Some good comes of this and some bad comes of this. The good is working conditions for the teachers. The bad is that compensation is based on seniority exclusively and that layoff decisions are seniority based as well. A number of great teachers got laid off here recently. A number of mediocre at best teachers still have their jobs. I had some atrocious teachers in this district. I graduated 11 years ago and they are still working. I get tenure for teaching philosophy/subject matter. I don't get it for teachers that don't teach.

As for teachers making enough/not making enough I believe it is time to accept that the opportunity cost to be a teacher is vastly different between various subjects. Frankly quality science and math instructors are hard to come by because those with the skills to teach them have better job opportunities elsewhere. All of my friends who have left teaching left for technical or science based jobs.

[fivi2]

unless they were having private meetings and I wasn't invited! :)

I taught in Texas and we didn't have a union. I'm pretty sure that my
mom was not in a union either. She was a long-time teacher in NW Ohio.

Didn't read the whole thread, but I taught a couple years in Texas (over 10 years ago) and they did have unions. They weren't mandatory, or even all that popular in my school, but they were definitely there.

eta: a quick google search indicates that there are 3 main teachers' unions in TX. I didn't join, but I know my mentor and my assistant were in one.

[Corie]

Didn't read the whole thread, but I taught a couple years in Texas (over 10 years ago) and they did have unions. They weren't mandatory, or even all that popular in my school, but they were definitely there.

eta: a quick google search indicates that there are 3 main teachers' unions in TX. I didn't join, but I know my mentor and my assistant were in one.


When I said that we didn't have a union, I meant my school district.
(And I taught over 15 years ago!)

Texas is a big state. :)

[larig]

unions make our taxes crazy high

How do unions make your taxes crazy high? Just curious.

I taught for 10 years (h.s. math) in Illinois, and my parents taught their entire careers in the state and were very active in their local teachers' union. (a local NEA chapter). My father (also a math teacher) was on the negotiating team when I was little. After going through the district's budget line-by-line one year, he found a lot of money that the district was trying to hide from the teachers, while they were claiming they didn't have the money to give them a raise. The union decided to strike, because the district was not negotiating with them in good faith. I remember worrying that he was going to go to jail, it was a scary time. I'll have to ask him the details of that tomorrow.

I was a proud union member, and realize the good that it provided. I joined as a student member when I was student teaching, because the union provided liability insurance to all of its members. I never ever had a problem finding work because I was a member, it was actually expected. I taught at very prestigious schools (e.g. Blue Ribbon Schools) and although I disagreed often with our union leadership, I recognized the value of collective bargaining. At the school I spent the majority of my career the district had lied about the amount of money they were spending on educators' health care. The union discovered through an independent audit that they were actually paying less, and putting the money in another fund, which was illegal. Through litigation the district was forced to put the money back into a fund to help reduce the health care costs for teachers from that point forward. Without the union that deceit wouldn't have been exposed.

Every school district in which I've worked the union was very protective of its non-tenured teachers. We were all members, but it was understood if we ever had to strike (teachers only strike when they have too. understand, they do not get paid when they strike. When my parents went on strike our family had NO INCOME for the entire strike) that non-tenured people would go into work, and it would not be considered crossing a picket line. In Illinois, because the union paid for all negotiating costs, people who chose to not be union members still had to pay their share of negotiating costs, and they had the benefits of the union contract too. In Illinois most schools have salary schedules. Your years of experience and your education (graduate hours, masters degrees, ph.d.s, etc. ) determine how much you get paid. Yes, if layoffs happen it is based on seniority, but in my estimation it is much more fair than letting administrators, who often have very little idea what is going on in the classroom have the deciding vote on who stays and who goes (where it would likely turn into a question of who is the more favorite teacher of the administrator).

Teachers have very little individual power. They work for peanuts, are expected to spend many many hours of their family time to grade papers and plan for class. They take the burden of children's problems on their shoulders every day and do their level best (often in very sad circumstances) to educate people's children, some of whom their own parents care very little for. It's a thankless job, and the finger-pointing at unions as the cause of the education system's failings I see/hear so often (I'm not referring to what is going on in this thread) makes me sad. I wonder how many of the loudest critics would fare in a classroom for a week. It's draining. There's a reason I left after 10 years, and I taught AP classes with very few discipline problems! It's just tiring having to defend your profession, when you've chosen your career to help people. Sure, there are a few bad teachers out there, but as we have seen there are a few bad bankers out there too, but they're not all bad. Just because there are a few bad teachers doesn't make unions bad.

I will say this--teaching has its rewards. After 10 years, I am proud to say that I still have many many students with whom I have remained in touch, checking in on them as they made their ways into adulthood. I'm proud of each and every one of them (especially a couple who became math teachers!) and I love to hear about their accomplishments and catch up with them on facebook. Watching them grow up has been incredibly gratifying.

[WatchingThemGrow]

That's not entirely accurate. School teachers' unions are not illegal in NC or any other state. In fact, they exist in NC and have many members. But labor relations for public sector workers are established by state law, and NC is one of the few states that does not permit full collective bargaining or require local school boards to recognize unions. Most others states do (incl TX).

I'm not one for depending on the kindness of administrators or management, having been management for much longer than a member of the rank-and-file. As the old bumper sticker goes: "Unions. The folks who brought you the weekend."

Ok, that makes sense! I just know there isn't one in my district as far as I can tell. Love the weekend thought!

[katydid1971]

Thank you Larig. As a long time teacher's union member you said what I was thinking very well. :thumbsup:

[kijip]

Sure, there are a few bad teachers out there, but as we have seen there are a few bad bankers out there too, but they're not all bad. Just because there are a few bad teachers doesn't make unions bad.


Oh, I agree. I don't want to see the unions go away though I would like to see some reforms that unions generally oppose (like differing pay-scales for teachers depending on their field of expertise).

[larig]

You're welcome, Katydid! Keep up the good work. Thanks for what you do every day!! It's because of people like you that I'll be proud to send my son to public school.


pay-scales for teachers depending on their field of expertise

I wrestle with this idea myself, and as a soon-to-be PhD in Education (learning sciences, specifically) I've had a lot of time to think about this stuff! As a math teacher I certainly would have benefitted from different pay scales, since math in most states is considered a high-demand field, especially when you're talking about someone who can and is willing to put in the hours it takes to teach AP calculus.

But, I (and I think this is the argument most teachers' unions would make) find it hard to justify paying two teachers who are teaching the same number of hours, grading papers, filling out report cards, tutoring kids, etc. different amounts of money. I think we are forced to make value judgements about what is a field worthy of extra pay. While math may be important to some, who is to say it is any less important than what home ec teachers teach? Certainly the typing I took in high school has been of more practical use to me than almost anything else I took in school--I use my typing skills every single day, but not my calculus. Before retiring my mother taught business ed (typing, shorthand,...) and my dad taught h.s. math, but they both worked equally long hours, and I can't imagine that my father would ever have thought that he should have made more money than my mom, just because he was teaching math and could have EASILY worked in industry (and did for a short time) and made lots more money.

I think the best solution for attracting people to teaching is to help those in high-demand fields pay for college in return for a guarantee to teach their subject in an location that needs them--mostly rural and urban schools. To me that seems more fair. Of course once we get them into teaching it is retention that is a killer. We lose so many teachers in the first couple of years, and the programs that seem to help with retention, like mentoring, are often afterthoughts for districts. New teachers are often very poorly supported and left to fend for themselves. I was lucky. I always had my parents to talk to about problems, and in my second district I was one of about 25 new hires, and we formed an informal network of support for one another AND were assigned mentors in our subject area. It was great.

I also don't have a problem offering teachers extra pay (like an extra stipend) for teaching Advance Placement or other classes like those which may carry higher demands of teachers. For example, when I taught AP calc I had review sessions for 10 weeks prior to the AP test in the evenings at least once a week. My students had my phone number and could call me whenever they had a problem that they just HAD to have an answer to. I just felt that they needed to know that our class was a team and we would all work together to succeed. If they were willing to put in the effort, I would be there whenever they needed me. I don't think I was an exception. Most AP teachers I knew were incredibly generous with their time, particularly around the exams, so i think some extra pay would likely be justified.

Sorry so long-winded. It's a topic near and dear to my heart, obviously. Hope I haven't been too overbearing, but I just wanted to share a former teacher's perspective.

[kijip]

I wrestle with this idea myself, and as a soon-to-be PhD in Education (learning sciences, specifically) I've had a lot of time to think about this stuff! As a math teacher I certainly would have benefitted from different pay scales, since math in most states is considered a high-demand field, especially when you're talking about someone who can and is willing to put in the hours it takes to teach AP calculus.


But from a very practical point, having served on hiring committees for high school teachers, it is hard to make the case for a shortage of English and humanities teachers when positions get hundreds of applications, even at the current rate of pay. And then to get only a handful of candidates for math and science. If we want to retain talent in those areas we have to compensate them in some way. It's not saying that other subjects are less important, just acknowledging that at the current pay scale in many areas there is no shortage of teachers in certain subjects while there is a serious shortage in other subjects. If something is not done to retain talented math and science teachers, we will continue to have students lag far behind in these subjects.

[klwa]

Ok, that makes sense! I just know there isn't one in my district as far as I can tell. Love the weekend thought!

My parents were both teachers in NC, and you are SOMEWHAT correct. NCAE is active in all counties & in all districts; however, they aren't REALLY a "true" union because of the way the state laws are written. Just like State Employees have the option of being in SEANC, but it's really more of a lobbying organization than a true union. Also, a lot of teachers in NC are members of NEA, which is the national teacher's union.

[vonfirmath]

This is a new concept for me. Alot of the towns here in Rhode Island
have teachers' unions.

This was not the case in my area in Texas.

There is a teachers' union in Texas, but 1) you don't HAVE to join. Texas is a "right-to-work" state. It's totally optional on the teachers' part. And, at least in Texas, when it is optional, teachers choose not to join.

[sste]

Hmmm . . . I imagine all unions work differently. My sister is in a teachers union (mass) and I have not been impressed on a few different levels.

1. the union does not seem very savvy at securing financial/retirement benefits (not only in terms of getting money from the district, which is understandably hard, but in securing low-cost retirement providers and funds, which they should be able to do). Union also has not seemed to understand that a 2% pay raise is less than typical inflation and thus is a pay cut. So, lack of financial sophistication.

2. The main thing the union has done is ensure that everyone is paid the same. This is NO way to run an enterprise. The school cannot financially reward the hardest working and most successful teachers. Talk about bad incentive systems . . .

3. The other central mission of the union is ensure that people cannot be fired or at least that its very, very difficult to fire them. This is also no way to run an enterprise as important as eduction. The U.S. govt, colleges, and other systems with strong job protection struggle with productivity and incompetent staff. Don't get me wrong, many wonderful teachers out there. But, what kind of workplace limits the employer's ability to weed out bad apples?

I imagine there are positives to unions that I am have not been exposed to . . .

[thomma]

not seemed to understand that a 2% pay raise is less than typical inflation and thus is a pay cut.

We have a certain number of "steps" so for most teachers there are step raises as well as a yearly raise. I say most because after 15 years you're at the stop of the scale...so no more step raises. Right now if we got 2% on top of a step raise it would be a miracle and/or 1/2 our teachers would lose their jobs.

In my district (in mass) you don't have to join a union but you have to pay a fee if there is any bargaining/negotiating done that year.

Kim
ds&dd 5/03

[jk3]

Yes, all of them. We're in NJ. And yikes the unions make our taxes crazy high!

What an odd statement. If your taxes are high + teacher salaries are high, I'm assuming your schools are good and your property value is higher than in a district with lower taxes, lower teacher pay and lesser schools. You get what you pay for which is why states with low property taxes *usually* have inferior schools.

[KBecks]

yes union in our state,

[mamicka]

What an odd statement. If your taxes are high + teacher salaries are high, I'm assuming your schools are good and your property value is higher than in a district with lower taxes, lower teacher pay and lesser schools. You get what you pay for which is why states with low property taxes *usually* have inferior schools.

We have some of the lowest property taxes around and our schools are top-notch.

[Ceepa]

What an odd statement. If your taxes are high + teacher salaries are high, I'm assuming your schools are good and your property value is higher than in a district with lower taxes, lower teacher pay and lesser schools. You get what you pay for which is why states with low property taxes *usually* have inferior schools.

I don't even remember the details except that when we lived in an area with a powerful teachers union everyone joked about leaving their jobs to become a teacher because the pay and benefits were through the roof and there was practically no oversight. There was always a backlash from the community about how the teachers union was a powerful creature that protected teachers from any fallout for poor performance.

Also our taxes were outrageous in our OK school district. The tax rates kept us from even looking in the towns whose districts were considered very good/excellent. So high tax rates didn't always translate into great schools.

[Corie]

I don't even remember the details except that when we lived in an area with a powerful teachers union everyone joked about leaving their jobs to become a teacher because the pay and benefits were through the roof and there was practically no oversight.




There is alot of complaining about our teacher's salaries going on right now.
It's in our newspaper all the time. Lots of community members writing in
to the editor. I was actually pretty shocked when I found out our teachers
got a base salary of over $72,000. That seems quite high to me. My neighbor
teaches math at the middle school and her students are done at 2pm. And she
is out of the school by 2:30pm. (union mandated)