Elementary school and vacations

[kristenk]

DH and I have always vacationed at off-peak times, and haven't had to worry about pulling DD out of school for vacation. DD will be starting kindergarten in the fall, though, so I'm wondering how people handle vacations when their kids are in elementary school.

There are two specific vacations that we'd like to do with DD that just wouldn't work in the summer. DH and I would love to take DD on some sort of winter vacation either this year or next because she's never really experienced snow. We want to spend the holidays with family, though, so vacationing during the school's winter/holiday break won't work too well. We'd also like to take DD back to WDW in a few years, but would rather avoid WDW in the summer. The two times we've been to WDW, we've gone in Jan/Feb and been very happy with the weather/crowd/cost/etc.

So, if you have a child in elementary school, how do you do family vacations? Do you just go when the school is on vacation? Do you pull your child out of school for a few days? If you pull your child out of school, are there any rules you follow as to how many days they miss or which grades they're in?

(Oh, and I will talk to the teacher/principal when DD starts school in the fall and find out their policy, but I'm just wondering what people actually do.)

[Momof3Labs]

We pulled DS out of kindergarten for a 10 day family vacation last October. He missed 6 days of school for the trip. That's what worked for our family, and he didn't fall behind at all. I wouldn't necessarily do it with a much older child who would miss a lot more being gone that long, but I don't know what my cut-off would be.

Each district has different policies, though, so you definitely want to talk to the principal (and teacher) before finalizing your plans.

[sariana]

In California, the school receives money only for students who actually are in class on any particular day. Even if a child is sick, the school loses that students Daily Attendance money. So taking a child out for a vacation would be detrimental to the school and the district. It's not as if the school's cost decrease because one child isn't there, right?

Your state may do it differently. In Michigan, there were two "big" attendance days, one in the fall and one in the spring. The average of those two days determined funding for the year.

So I would find out how your school is funded before making any plans.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I don't feel right pulling ds out of school for vacations. Sure, if something really awesome came up that I really thought would be great for the family I would do it. But, otherwise, as much as I hate crowds, I will go on our trips during regularly scheduled vacations though I am willing to tack on a day or 2 to a scheduled long weekend and go on a 4-5 day trip during the year.

eta- I always wanted to rent a beach house the first week of Sept. when prices went down but weather was still good (barring hurricanes :)). Never got my act together and now I realize I can't do that b/c of school. I wouldn't want ds to miss school in the 1st few weeks.

Beth

[AnnieW625]

It's been many years since I was in school (grad. high school in 1995), but my parents rarely took us out of school. The one year we actually missed school during the school year I was sixteen and it coincided with thanksgiving week (the prior two or three years we'd had the whole week off and that year we didn't). We had to take homework with us which except for chemistry lab was easy to do on the road.

I am not sure what we'll do when DD gets older and in school, but if it's a once in a lifetime trip then yes I wouldn't mind pulling her out of school for a couple of days, but I wouldn't make it a habit. A friend of mine told me that her grandkids who go to school in the San Jose, CA area have had a snow week in January/February the last couple of years and that they just start school a week early every year to make up for the difference.

You'll also have the two weeks or so at Christmas and there is already snow in some parts of the country then so you might be able to work around that too.

[BabyMine]

We do the same thing. In our county in Florida you need to write a letter to the principal. He will either allow it or refuse.

[egoldber]

I've never asked permission. I have taken Sarah out for up to 4 days for a vacation.

We have a family vacation that we take every fall. We try to schedule it over a long weekend so that we only take her out for 3-4 days.

If she were struggling or behind, I wouldn't. And I certainly wouldn't do it over a time when there was a state exam or other conflict. But no one at our school has ever said a word about it to us.

[kijip]

We took T out for different things this year, including 5 days for going to San Diego/Legoland. I would not do that once he was old enough that unneeded absences could cause issues or if he were struggling academically. However, he is not struggling and the trips were as educational or more educational than Kindergarten was. Here school funding is based on enrollment (as judged by those that show up the first week and continue to be evaluated/taught that year at that school), not attendance.

[jellibeans]

The teacher that I student taught with told me that she thinks that if you pull your child out of school for a vacation, you are telling your child that the vacation is more important than school. I have never taken my dc out of school for a trip, but if it means saving lots of money and beating crowds, I don't know if I could pass that up!

[niccig]

We're discussing this too.

I think in the earlier years I can see pulling DS out for a few days and tack it on to a weekend. But as it gets older, that could be problematic.

Vacations are already difficult for us. My family are in Australia and UK, when we visit you want to go for 3-4 weeks to make the long trek worthwhile, but that takes up too much of DH's vacation time and we have his family to see. Plus we would like to go on a vacation that is just the 3 of us and is not a visit to extended family. If we only visit for 2 weeks, my family complain. I have told everyone that they need to be grateful for the time that they have NOW, as when I start work, they'll be even less vacation time. And anyway, 2 weeks is about all I can handle with my mum.

[brittone2]

The teacher that I student taught with told me that she thinks that if you pull your child out of school for a vacation, you are telling your child that the vacation is more important than school. I have never taken my dc out of school for a trip, but if it means saving lots of money and beating crowds, I don't know if I could pass that up!

Conversely, I think it could be argued that not allowing a child to go on a family trip, etc. demonstrates that school is more important than family experiences/real-life opportunities.

We are homeschooling, so it is a non issue for us. If my kids were in public school, I fear I would be the PITB parent who would not have a problem pulling my kid from class for several days provided they weren't having any major academic issues.

(eta: we take a week long beach vacation every September once everyone else is back to school, and I absolutely love it. Fewer crowds, warm water. )

[egoldber]

you are telling your child that the vacation is more important than school

Well, I don't know about vacation per se, but I *do* think that time spent with family is more important than time spent in school. And I think that having a healthy work/life/family balance is important.

[SASM]

We haven't done it before, however, we are pulling DS (1st grade) out of school in Nov for an off-peak vacation to WDW. We'll miss about 5 days. Hoping it'll work. We plan on telling his teachers and hope that he'll have some homework to keep up with things.

[SASM]

Well, I don't know about vacation per se, but I *do* think that time spent with family is more important than time spent in school. And I think that having a healthy work/life/family balance is important.
Well put, Beth! :)

[kcandz]

In California, the school receives money only for students who actually are in class on any particular day. Even if a child is sick, the school loses that students Daily Attendance money. So taking a child out for a vacation would be detrimental to the school and the district. It's not as if the school's cost decrease because one child isn't there, right?

This is insane IMO and I live in CA. This is close to the other thread of "are there too many laws?" We go to private school and starting K they are very strict on attendance and lateness - one of the admins said that companies are now looking at school tardiness as an indicator of how an individual will perform in the workplace. As if the child has any control of these things in K...the sheer ludicrousness of some of this stuff is enough to turn me libertarian.

I am firmly in the work/life balance camp. If we are going anywhere internationally, yes I will pull DC from school no matter the age. I believe DC can make it up.

[momof2girls]

I took DDs out of preschool and half-day Kindergarten for 5 days. Now that DD#1 will be in full day 1st grade we will not take her out of school for vacation. I think it sends the wrong message.

[kijip]

The teacher that I student taught with told me that she thinks that if you pull your child out of school for a vacation, you are telling your child that the vacation is more important than school.

I can think of few things in my son's life that are not more important than school. Education is important to me but school is only a fraction of the way he gets educated.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I can think of few things in my son's life that are not more important than school. Education is important to me but school is only a fraction of the way he gets educated.

:yeahthat:

I also think that sometimes it is just nice to experience something other than school in life. My dh and I disagree on "mental health days" (days off for the heck of it- used sparingly).

I still don't think I would pull ds out of school to go somewhere like Disney World but I would do it in a heartbeat to travel abroad or something.

Beth

[jk3]

Once they hit K, I would not pull out my kids to go on a vacation. There are enough school vacations, including a long summer, and I think it sends the wrong message to kids when they miss school for vacations. I know it's less expensive to go on trips during off times but school is important.

[Ceepa]

I think if we were to pull DC out of school we would try to minimize the time out like tack an extra day onto a long weekend, but I don't see us regularly pulling them out of school for a vacation.

[sste]

I think this depends on how complicated your lives are. Right now, my dh and I lead very busy, 2-career, neither set of grandparents in-state, freaking complicated lives! So, when our DS reaches the k stage of things we won't get that rigid about schedules - - something has to give.

However, what I do think is unfair and problematic, is expecting the school teacher to prepare homework packets or assignment packets or otherwise catch your DC up when you take vacation during school time. My sister used to teach elementary school and this was the expectation among parents. IMO that is pretty over the top. I think if you take your child out of school you need to take responsibility for the loss of school time.

[pinkmomagain]

We have taken dc out of school maybe 2-3 days at a time for vacations attached to a weekend or holiday break. Usually, to get a better break on airfare or hotel. I personally wouldn't do more than that.

[brittone2]

I can think of few things in my son's life that are not more important than school. Education is important to me but school is only a fraction of the way he gets educated.

I agree 100%. Education to me is not the same as "school." Lots of education takes place outside of a school building/classroom, and my personal belief is that those experiences are equally and often more valuable than what takes place at a desk.

[kransden]

It depends on your school. DD's old school was very flexible. Her new school is not!

As your child gets older, it gets harder to pull them out. I often would pull dd out 1/2 day to go on vacation for a long weekend. Well she doesn't want to miss the party or activities on that day now. If you do it for a week, they miss a lot of learning and will be behind.

IMHO for week long trips, if it is a once in a lifetime trip, go ahead and go. If you plan on doing it every year, then you need to rethink your priorities.

[bluestar2]

I think for the next year or two, it will be okay.

[egoldber]

If you plan on doing it every year, then you need to rethink your priorities.

When you have to balance the needs and priorities of a very large extended family, then sometimes, it is what it is. I'm sure this will change though as DH's siblings' kids get to be school aged too. And then we have to balance all the schedules of various school districts around the country. :dizzy:


As your child gets older, it gets harder to pull them out. I often would pull dd out 1/2 day to go on vacation for a long weekend. Well she doesn't want to miss the party or activities on that day now.

This is very true. Sarah is heartbroken to miss ANY class activity. I pulled her out for 2 days of the last 4 days of school (last time I could take the kids to visit my mom before starting work) and she was very sad, even though her teacher assured me she would miss nothing.

[brittone2]

Here in NC, from what I understand there are districts w/ year round schedules that are mandatory (not in my county, but common in Wake county, etc.). Sometimes siblings end up on different schedules, meaning there isn't always much overlap (or any?) of vacation time, for example. One kid may go to an elementary school on one schedule, and a middle school child may attend a different school that operates on a totally different schedule. (eta: our district has a year round elementary, but you have to elect to go, and there is no transportation. It is the highest ranking of the elementary schools based on test scores, etc. But in other parts of NC, the year-round thing is truly mandatory if they are attending public.)

[niccig]

When you have to balance the needs and priorities of a very large extended family, then sometimes, it is what it is. I'm sure this will change though as DH's siblings' kids get to be school aged too. And then we have to balance all the schedules of various school districts around the country. :dizzy:


We've already given up on this. My family is too far flung and different schedules and amount of vacation time. We let everyone know what we are doing, and if we can meet up, great. My mother is still not happy, but we all have work commitments, she does not. She can afford to visit us more often, but she doesn't. I can only do what I can.

[Moneypenny]

We plan on taking DD out of kindy for about a week for vacation. These days will be considered "unexcused", but we get approval for them (not quite sure how you get approved unexcused absences, but whatever, lol!). As she gets older, we won't do that, simply for her own benefit, but I'm really not down with the idea that public school can dictate when my family travels.

[egoldber]

We've already given up on this.

But we don't want to give up on it, at least not yet. :) My family is very much not close, but DH's family is. I honestly envy that and want my kids to grow up with memories of big, fun vacations with extended family. It's a priority for everyone in his family, but the reality is that balancing all these people means that the vacation is often during the school year.

Since we do not live in close proximity, the family vacations are how my kids connect with grandma and grandpa, their aunts and uncles and their cousins. Even if it is in Disney. ;)

[Momof3Labs]

My DH has to choose his vacation time over a year in advance (October for the full following calendar year). School calendars aren't available by then, and even though we can guess at some of the holidays, he can't always get time off when the kids are off since they choose by seniority and even with 19 years, he's too junior to always get off when he wants to get off. If we aren't willing to pull the kids out, we don't get any vacations as a family at all.

We view family vacations as a supplement to his formal education. Yes, that includes Disney World - we incorporate learning into everything we do, that's just the way our family works. Once it feels like DS1 would miss too much, we won't take him out of school for vacations (which may mean no family vacations some years), but it worked just fine this year. We took full responsibility for catching him up on what he missed (not much, given where he was already at academically).

I see a lot of comments about sending bad messages to kids, but I think that those fail to take into consideration family circumstances that make it difficult or impossible to take vacations during school time. It also ignores the learning that can (and IMO should) take place during any family vacation, domestic or international.

[niccig]

But we don't want to give up on it, at least not yet. :) My family is very much not close, but DH's family is. I honestly envy that and want my kids to grow up with memories of big, fun vacations with extended family. It's a priority for everyone in his family, but the reality is that balancing all these people means that the vacation is often during the school year.

Since we do not live in close proximity, the family vacations are how my kids connect with grandma and grandpa, their aunts and uncles and their cousins. Even if it is in Disney. ;)

Oh i agree. I want to do big family vacations. But reality works against us. DH gets 5 weeks a year, if I go back to work I might start at 2 weeks. Both my sisters work at universities in the UK and they get 6 + weeks as they can sometimes take other time, but if it's teaching time they have to be there if they can't get someone to cover it. DS will be in school soon. My BIL has just started a new job, so he won't get any time soon.

We plan to be at my parents for Christmas 2010. We've told my sisters - if they can be there too, great. If not, I don't know when we'll all be together....last time it was May 2008. It totally sucks..web cam is our friend.

[egoldber]

Ugh, international is so hard. It's hard enough for us and we're all east of the Mississippi! ;)

[Corie]

I have no problem pulling my kids out of school for a vacation. Doesn't
bother me at all.
I may have a different opinion as my kids get older or if they were struggling
with school.

And I have never asked permission from our school to do so.

[Corie]

Well, I don't know about vacation per se, but I *do* think that time spent with family is more important than time spent in school. And I think that having a healthy work/life/family balance is important.

I completely agree with you, Beth.

[Corie]

I also think that sometimes it is just nice to experience something other than school in life. My dh and I disagree on "mental health days" (days off for the heck of it- used sparingly).



Growing up, my Mom let each of us 4 kids choose a different day
and we got to skip school that day. It was so awesome to have the
entire day alone with my Mom. (And you got to pick what you wanted to do
with Mom.) My Mom said, "Everyone needs a break now and then!" :)

I totally agree!!

[MartiesMom2B]

Martie's school is year round so I do have the option of going to vacation at off peak times. Having said that, before I knew what track she would be, I booked our vacation at Disney and she missed 5 days of school. I had no problem doing that and her teacher was very agreeable towards it. She said family time is important, have fun and don't worry about homework. When she's older I probably would not pull her out for vacation.

[mamicka]

I can think of few things in my son's life that are not more important than school. Education is important to me but school is only a fraction of the way he gets educated.

:yeahthat:

No offense meant, but I think it's... strange... that we (society) are at a point where we let something else dictate what our families do. Ultimately, *I* am responsible for my children's education. Whether they attend public/private/homeschool is irrelevant. I don't think that extra family time in lieu of classroom time is a negative at all. We're homeschooling but if we were still public schoolers, I'd not hesitate to pull my kids out for vacations every year.

[MmeSunny]

However, what I do think is unfair and problematic, is expecting the school teacher to prepare homework packets or assignment packets or otherwise catch your DC up when you take vacation during school time. My sister used to teach elementary school and this was the expectation among parents. IMO that is pretty over the top. I think if you take your child out of school you need to take responsibility for the loss of school time.

Thank you! That is exactly what happens in my classroom. Two or three days before the kids leave, they come up and ask for the next week's work. I don't have every thing photocopied/arranged/on hand at that point. Plus I would have to type out so much information on how/what to do. That's not fair to ask of a teacher. I have 130 students. I couldn't do it for all, so that puts everyone in an awkward position.

In addition, I think it does send the wrong message to kids that it's ok to miss school. Yes, family time is important. Absolutely, but you can never know if your child will really understand what is taught in their absence, how much of a base skill is being built for further learning, direct instruction for the standardized tests, etc. Every day your child misses school is important and learning is lost. Yes, even if they are getting "great life experiences" outside of the classroom. They should be getting those--on all of the school vacations.

It's not an either/or situation. When school is in session the kids should be there. Family and "real life" experiences are exactly what breaks are for.

I am biased because I am a teacher, but I don't think that *some* parents realize how much a week's vacation at the wrong point in the year can really mess up the skills and content knowledge that a child needs to be successful.

It's the equivalent of taking a week off of work without sharing projects with collegues, letting your clients know you're out of town, not finishing files/projects in advance and upon return being asked to pick up not where you left off but where the rest of your team now is on the project without any sort of briefing/info sharing/etc.

[billysmommy]

We have no problems pulling the boys out of school for vacations. I don't really see it changing until they get to high school unless they're really struggling in school. Even in high school it would be more to do with sports then actually missing class if they're doing well.

[mikeys_mom]

Well, I don't know about vacation per se, but I *do* think that time spent with family is more important than time spent in school. And I think that having a healthy work/life/family balance is important.

I completely agree.

I can still remember as a child, several occasions, when it was a picture perfect winter day after a fresh snowfall, my father would say to my sisters and I at the breakfast table; "Anyone have a test today? Anything in school you don't want to miss today?" If the answers were no, he'd say "Well, I don't have to be in court today (he's a lawyer), so let's go hit the slopes."

We lived about 45 minutes from the ski hills and this was a huge treat to go on a weekday when the lines for the lifts would be short.

I never thought my parents didn't value my education, just that they thought it was ok to have fun sometimes. None of us were struggling in school and I probably remember more about those days than whatever was going on in school.

[kristenk]

After I posted this question, I ran into my next-door neighbor who has kids in the elementary school DD will be attending. I asked her about vacations and she said that they are officially discouraged during the school year, but a lot of people do it and the teachers are generally fine with it during the K-2 years. She also said - without my asking - that the teachers won't give you the work that kids will miss in advance. (That would be nice with long airplane trips, etc., but I can't imagine even asking for all of the work in advance. Talk about a pain for the teachers.)

I think that I might try to take DD out of school for 1 or 2 extra days around a teacher workday in January or February (this school year or next) to take our winter trip. I think that a long weekend in "winter" would probably be enough for us! The WDW trip is a little more complicated. We're not going to be going to WDW very often, so I'd like to have a trip that's at least 1 week. I can't imagine taking DD out for a whole week in a few years, so we'll probably try to do that one right when she gets out of school in May/June. My neighbor mentioned that the kids get all of Thanksgiving week off, so that might be another option for the WDW trip.

ETA: Looks like Thanksgiving week is one of the busiest times. Back to the drawing board for that one...

[brittone2]

I am biased because I am a teacher, but I don't think that *some* parents realize how much a week's vacation at the wrong point in the year can really mess up the skills and content knowledge that a child needs to be successful.


IMO, "success" has a broader definition than test scores and grades.

[MmeSunny]

IMO, "success" has a broader definition than test scores and grades.

I agree, but PPs had mentioned success in school.

While I would love to get away from the focus on test scores, that is what determines to a large extent, "success" in school. That determination then leading to possible G/T programs, advanced classes, etc.

[Momof3Labs]

While I would love to get away from the focus on test scores, that is what determines to a large extent, "success" in school. That determination then leading to possible G/T programs, advanced classes, etc.

I know that your district may be different, but the road to advanced classes and the G/T program in our district is not heavily dependent on test scores (the way it is explained to me, it is not dependent at all, but I won't deny that it may be a factor in some cases).

In addition, is it right to define success in school as participation in G/T programs and advanced classes? So that means that kids who do not participate in those classes are not successes in school?

[TahliasMom]

dd is starting K in fall and we have a family vacation planned for thanksgiving week. it's less time for me to take off and dd will only miss 4 days as we're leaving friday before and coming back sat. airfare still stinks but at least we wont have to deal with crowds. as she gets older we'll probably try to avoid scheduling vacations during the school year...

[alexsmommy]

My thoughts on this have changed as I worked in DS1's classroom this year. I don't see a problem with up to two days, but after watching my DS's teacher accomodating/catching up kids who were behind or missed large parts of multi-part projects soley for vacation, I felt that was an unfair use of her time for the other students. I thought I would be more open to pulling for longer in younger grades, but now I just don't know. We also MUCH prefer to travel off-peak (both DH and I hate crowds and lines) but I think what will adjust is the type of vacation we take vs. when we take it.

[BeccaB.]

In California, the school receives money only for students who actually are in class on any particular day. Even if a child is sick, the school loses that students Daily Attendance money. So taking a child out for a vacation would be detrimental to the school and the district. It's not as if the school's cost decrease because one child isn't there, right?

Your state may do it differently. In Michigan, there were two "big" attendance days, one in the fall and one in the spring. The average of those two days determined funding for the year.

So I would find out how your school is funded before making any plans.

:jammin: I really appreciate it that you would take that into consideration when making plans. The school I taught in frequently had kids show up after our Sept. 20 count day and they did not count in the amount of funding we received. This is especially hard since our school was mostly ESL so we lost out on even more funds for those kids and the services they required.

[BeccaB.]

As a first/second grade teacher, I cringed inside whenever a family told me they were going to take a vacation during the school year. Even a young grades kids miss a lot when they are gone for even three or four days. In my district we are required to give kids the assessments over all material even if they have missed a lot of the instruction. That can effect the kids grades and their placement in reading groups or other leveled learning groups. Even though I try to make time to catch kids up, its really hard to make time and still keep teaching.

[s7714]

Prior to K starting last fall, I would have said a couple days off two or three times during the year wouldn't be that big of a deal. However, then school actually started and we started dealing with all the colds going around. My DD ended up missing a couple days here, a few more there. Add in over a week off due to a broken arm and related appointments, and all those absences started adding up. There was no way she could academically or socially afford to miss any more school for a non-emergency vacation.

So in theory I'll say I'd definitely consider taking a DC out for a special occasion, but I think you also have to take into consideration the effect other things like illness, doctor's appointments, etc. have on the actual number of days your DC could wind up missing.

[egoldber]

I am biased because I am a teacher, but I don't think that *some* parents realize how much a week's vacation at the wrong point in the year can really mess up the skills and content knowledge that a child needs to be successful.

No offense, but IME to date, the curriculum in early elementary moves so slowly I have a hard time seeing it being an issue. I realize that I am in a place of privilege with myself and my children that if they do indeed miss something at school, I have no problems with teaching them the material myself. I know that not all parents are able or willing to do that.

And as I said, if my kid were struggling in school, that would be a different issue.

ETA: And I have NEVER asked Sarah's teacher to put material together ahead of time. In all cases she has made up the work on our own time.

[JBaxter]

I have pulled the boys out from time to time not every year but we have done it. OUr schools allow upto 3 days of pre approved vacation time. It is much harder in middle and high school. We are going to try to go to FL in January but Logan will be starting college classes and cant go along ( hes still in highschool)

[lizajane]

No offense, but IME to date, the curriculum in early elementary moves so slowly I have a hard time seeing it being an issue. I realize that I am in a place of privilege with myself and my children that if they do indeed miss something at school, I have no problems with teaching them the material myself. I know that not all parents are able or willing to do that. .

i am kinda thinking that way, too. i feel pretty darn confident that i would be able to not only teach my child the material he missed, but do so more quickly than the teacher could, as s/he would have a whole classroom of kids to balance and i would just have my one kid to instruct.

i don't intend to pull my kid for vacations. i can't afford vacations. we go with my mom and dad to the beach every year and they rent the house. so we go when they go. period. and that is august.

i do, however, pull my kid out TWICE per WEEK (leaves a little more than 2 hours early) for tutoring because he is dyslexic, and i DO think that his tutoring for his own specific learning needs IS more important than school. if he doesn't learn to read and write according to his own needs, he will always struggle in school. and his school doesn't have an LD specialist to teach him.

i also pull him every other week for counseling, (one hour appt, plus travel time to and from) for ADHD, anxiety and OCD. again... see above...

[MmeSunny]

Another thing to mention is that schools are graded on their absentee rate. This is part of the "No Child Left Behind" act.

If a certain percentage of students are absent more than 15 days a year for any reason, a school can be placed on the "Needs Improvement" list. The percent is not that high to be placed on the list. 10-15% IIRC.

Nobody wants to have their child in what the media so politely calls "failing schools". Low attendance rates can put a school there, regardless of other things. Also, if students are absent on days of standardized tests, schools can get marked down for that as well, especially if they are part of a certain population, ie special ed, low SES, certain race, etc. A really high percentage of students (about 96% at my school) HAVE to take the tests or schools can receive the "needs improvement" label.

I know I don't have the "popular opinion" here and I'm not trying to offend anyone who pulls their child out, but there are real ramifications from this that affect more than just one person.