Who else is raising their child(ren) without religion (secular parenting resources)

[kayte]

First off, this thread is not intended to be a debate of the whys or why nots--- if you want that, please start your own thread.

My DH and I have made a commitment to raise our daughter without a church or specific religion, as I am learning a larger and larger segment of the US's population is doing each year. Recently I came across two nice resources (both books) for secular parenting edited though not written by the same gentleman - Parenting Beyond Belief and Raising Free Thinkers... I think especially the later to chock full of details of other books to read or read to your children, organizations(even summer camps!), resource for answering questions, finding similar communities , etc... PBB is a nice mix of essays from people in all walks of life (even some religious leaders) covering a very wide range of topics for assisting in parenting without religion. Neither is a case for it, just tools to help you do it.

I was curious who else here is following this path and what resources they have found.

[egoldber]

Well neither DH nor I is religious. We were raised in different traditions. DH was raised in a non-observant, culturally Jewish family and I was raised in a very devout Methodist family. But neither of us has any religious affiliation at this point. In general, when asked, we will say that "we are a culturally Jewish family by choice". How is that for wishy washy? LOL!!

We actually sent Sarah (and now Amy) to the local Jewish Community Center preschool in order to help pass on some of the traditions of Jewish culture and to help give our family a cultural rhythm for the year.

We do celebrate almost all major holidays, though in a secular way. As Sarah has gotten older we have explained the religious significance of various holidays to her. She has read about God and religion in books and of course heard about it on TV and from other people. She claims to believe in God, but knows that neither DH nor I does.

Interestingly she had a major issue with Christmas this year. I guess this was the first year that I explained the religious significance of it to her at more than a superficial level and she became very upset when she realized that Jews do not believe in the same things as Christians and that these are separate beliefs. She considers herself Jewish, although technically she is not because I am not....so very complicated these things are.... I considered converting because of this, but felt it was dishonest on my part to "convert" to something that I don't really believe in to give my children a label that may or may not be of value to them. I figure that if it is important to them then they can convert themselves if they choose.

But we raise our children with values and with the ethics that we believe in.

[cvanbrunt]

I haven't felt the need for resources, but my children are pretty young. It strikes me as funny that I would need help not believing in something, you know. I'm sure that will change as the girls' circle of friends expand. Thanks for the titles. I'll check them out.

[NN317]

My DH and I have made a commitment to raise our daughter without a church or specific religion, as I am learning a larger and larger segment of the US's population is doing each year. Recently I came across two nice resources (both books) for secular parenting edited though not written by the same gentleman - Parenting Beyond Belief and Raising Free Thinkers... I think especially the later to chock full of details of other books to read or read to your children, organizations(even summer camps!), resource for answering questions, finding similar communities , etc... PBB is a nice mix of essays from people in all walks of life (even some religious leaders) covering a very wide range of topics for assisting in parenting without religion. Neither is a case for it, just tools to help you do it.

:yeahthat: I have both of these books as well and plan on using them for reference once our girls are old enough.
We do not practice religion at all. DH was raised Mormon but left the church after high school. I was raised in a Catholic/Christian family but never had to go to church. We prefer science to religion.

[Cam&Clay]

I'm interested in those books! I have been winging it so far...with success, but it would be nice to read those books, too. My biggest problem is that I worry that my children will be bothered by others about our choices. I had a student in my classroom a few years ago whose family were atheists and one day, he casually mentioned that he didn't believe in God. It was an ugly scene that I had to break up...and they were 3rd graders.

[vludmilla]

I'm interested in those books! I have been winging it so far...with success, but it would be nice to read those books, too. My biggest problem is that I worry that my children will be bothered by others about our choices. I had a student in my classroom a few years ago whose family were atheists and one day, he casually mentioned that he didn't believe in God. It was an ugly scene that I had to break up...and they were 3rd graders.

Ugh. This is why sometimes I think we need freedom *from* religion not just freedom *of* religion.

DH and I are atheists though we were both born and raised Catholic. Our mothers were both fairly religious women who toyed with the notion of becoming nuns before they married. I attended Catholic elementary school and DH attended Catholic high school.

Some people like to participate in secular Humanist activities. We haven't so far and I don't expect to but you never know.

[vludmilla]

But we raise our children with values and with the ethics that we believe in.

This is what we are doing as well. We feel confident that we can help DD develop a strong ethical sense and good values without formal religion.

[maydaymommy]

I considered converting because of this, but felt it was dishonest on my part to "convert" to something that I don't really believe in to give my children a label that may or may not be of value to them. I figure that if it is important to them then they can convert themselves if they choose.

But we raise our children with values and with the ethics that we believe in.

OT, but fyi, Beth -
In Reform Judaism, and I believe also for Reconstructionists, there is now patrilineal decent. Actually, the Reform movement enacted the resolution in the early 1980's. Meaning, if dad is Jewish, and if you are raising your children with a Jewish identity, then they ARE Jewish!

[SnuggleBuggles]

Each year we have just worked to come up with age appropriate summaries of various holidays we celebrate, like Christmas and Easter, as well as other holidays that are observed around us. Since ds went to a Jewish preschool (though none of us are Jewish) we were able to get a basic understanding of the holidays so we can explain why he has certain days off from school, for example. Each year the discussions have gotten deeper and ds has asked more questions. We usually just say, "some people believe X" and follow it up by saying whether that is a belief our family shares or not. Both my mom and dh's parents are religious so I want my boys to have an understanding of that faith.

I just roll with it all. If something comes up that stumps me as far as coming up with a good explanation then I will research options on how to handle it. Till then, we have been ok for the most part. It's hard for me though b/c I am still undecided if I want him to really believe in some higher power or not so when he asks me if I believe I have to carefully consider my answer.

Beth

[kayte]

It's hard for me though b/c I am still undecided if I want him to really believe in some higher power or not so when he asks me if I believe I have to carefully consider my answer.

Beth

With the clearly noted exception (even by the editor of the books I mention) of the Richard Dawkins essay, I think both books do a good job of helping to create an environment in your home that is religious literate and completely open to allowing your child to decide things for themselves. I think this has been helpful for DH and I. We are big believers in just because we believe this it doesn't mean you have to.. which I think is the cornerstone to creating tolerance in every area of life.

[SnuggleBuggles]

With the clearly noted exception (even by the editor of the books I mention) of the Richard Dawkins essay, I think both books do a good job of helping to create an environment in your home that is religious literate and completely open to allowing your child to decide things for themselves. I think this has been helpful for DH and I. We are big believers in just because we believe this it doesn't mean you have to.. which I think is the cornerstone to creating tolerance in every area of life.

Sounds good to me. :)

Beth

[fivi2]

I am an atheist - my parents were vaguely protestant (I don't know what denom) and never took us to church. My DH grew up with various family members in various religions, didn't go well for him... He calls himself an Atheist (but I suspect more Agnostic/suspicious of organized religion...)

I have read PBB and own the second one but haven't read it yet. We do celebrate some holidays, but in a secular way. I have considered looking into a UU church for the community aspect as well as helping instruct the girls in various religions (I believe some of the ones in my area have classes for kids). But, never having been a member of a church, I am a bit hesitant. I do remember feeling like I was missing out on that aspect as a kid (the community part). The secular humanist group in my area doesn't sound that spectacular.

I need to do more to work out what I want to convey to the kids. MIL is super-religious and tries to impart it to the girls. My parents just ignored all of it and my sister and I felt like that left us open to a lot of confusion. Growing up we never experienced any teasing for not going to church, but the area we live in now is very different. One of my nephews has been teased about it.

[wellyes]

It strikes me as funny that I would need help not believing in something, you know.

Ha! But - that's the trick - to be able to articulate your convictions and moral code in a way that is not about the absence of faith.

"Atheist" is, in a way, a very religious-centric term. "Secular humanist" is, IMO, a somewhat annoying term - but the concept is really good (wiki entry here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism)).

[egoldber]

I have to say I feel no need for books, etc. I'm not knocking them, just that I don't feel a need for them. I also don't need any sort of religious faith to have a sense of ethics and standards of behavior. Maybe because I've never thought about those behaviors/beliefs in the context of religion? I dunno.

We talk about things we do and believe because we care about other people, about the world/planet and about ourselves.

[kayte]

I have to say I feel no need for books, etc. I'm not knocking them, just that I don't feel a need for them. I also don't need any sort of religious faith to have a sense of ethics and standards of behavior. Maybe because I've never thought about those behaviors/beliefs in the context of religion? I dunno.

We talk about things we do and believe because we care about other people, about the world/planet and about ourselves.

Resources don't have to be only books.

But they can be helpful- For instance my sister was looking for an alternative for Boy Scouts for her sons (which is a highly religious organization). I found a listing of several similar organizations we would have never knew existed.

Also your remark in your first response made me wonder if you are aware there is several organizations of Jewish Humanists--with chapters all over--that do just as you said-- practice Judaism as a culture not a religion. Perhaps you could find a group of like minded in your area.

[fivi2]

I have to say I feel no need for books, etc. I'm not knocking them, just that I don't feel a need for them. I also don't need any sort of religious faith to have a sense of ethics and standards of behavior. Maybe because I've never thought about those behaviors/beliefs in the context of religion? I dunno.

We talk about things we do and believe because we care about other people, about the world/planet and about ourselves.

ITA about not needing religion for ethics. I also don't think books are necessary, but I buy books for everything :) Just food for thought, kind of a thing. PBB is basically just essays about how different people handled different things - it helped me ponder in advance how I might answer certain questions (which of course flew out the window when the questions started). My girls have started with lot of questions (where are grandpa's mommy and daddy? where was I before I was born?) that I personally find difficult to answer for a 3 yo. I think it is just my personality to buy books and see how other people tackle issues before settling on my own way of doing things.

So I don't feel like I need books to impart ethics, but to help me understand the challenges that might arise growing up in a christian-centered culture when we are not christian.

ETA: as I mentioned, my parents just ignored religion and pretended like it didn't exist for anyone. That was difficult for me growing up for a variety of reasons that are hard to describe on a board. I didn't feel like I was missing anything in a religious way, but in the way of not understanding what other kids were talking about. My parents never said this is what we think and why - it was just not discussed. So I personally like books and other resources to help me not do what my parents did. I am sure I am not explaining this well...

[gordo]

I was raised Jewish and DH was raised Catholic. Neither of us are religious (we were married by a justice of the peace and did not have a religious wedding). I do identify as Jewish, but for me it is the cultural aspects of being Jewish, not the religion. We do celebrate all the Jewish and Catholic holidays were our respective families, but we do not plan on sending the girls to Hebrew or Sunday school. I do want them to learn about different religions in this world, but I personally don't plan on practicing. I would just feel like a hypocrite if I started attending synagogue or church, just because I want my children to do so. I will check out those books as they do seem interesting.

[kayte]

So I don't feel like I need books to impart ethics, but to help me understand the challenges that might arise growing up in a christian-centered culture when we are not christian.



Thanks for saying that.. since I think I was trying to say that before but didn't get it out.

[egoldber]

As I said, I'm not knocking books, just that I feel no need for them in this issue. Which is somewhat interesting in a self reflective sort of way, because my first instinct in many things is to go and read everything I can on a subject. ;)


Also your remark in your first response made me wonder if you are aware there is several organizations of Jewish Humanists--with chapters all over--that do just as you said-- practice Judaism as a culture not a religion. Perhaps you could find a group of like minded in your area.

There are several in our area, well at least close-ish. But see, we don't even feel a need for that. But I hate to even call what we do Judaism because of the many people I know who DO practice and for them it as an incredibly deep and rich part of the fabric of their lives and for us it is not like that. The "Judasim" we do is only the secular things, we make challah, we have apples and honey at the New Year, we do the 8 nights of Hanukkah with latkes, we have a (child led) seder, etc. But we also do Santa and the Easter Bunny (athough Sarah now knows that these are not real) .

I guess maybe what I'm sort of thinking is groups like that may be to replace a religious organization in someone's life. And I feel no need to replace that, does that make any sense? We don't pretend it doesn't exist. It just isn't important to us in that way. I talk to the kids (well to Sarah at this point) about this stuff all the time, because it comes up and she has questions. We don't call her The Quizmaster for nothing. :ROTFLMAO: I would never send my kids out unprepared into the world. I think that knowing about people and their faiths is important because it shapes a lot of the world around us.

We have talked about what various people believe (including those in our extended families which include conservative Jews, Methodists, Catholics, etc.). When Leah died followed soon by my father, we had to start having conversations about after life, what others think, what we think, etc. If there's one thing I hope my kids know is that they can always talk to us about anything and no subject is off limits. I have told Sarah that she gets to make her own choices about what and how she believes. She knows what we believe and she see what we do as a family (such as it is). I dunno how it will play out for them, I guess we'll see.

[Happy 2B mommy]

[QUOTE=cvanbrunt;2417975]
It strikes me as funny that I would need help not believing in something, you know.



You may want to check out the following link. One of the best 'statements of faith' I have heard.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

[BabyMine]

We are planning to teach our DC about different religions. It doesn't mean they have to pick one but I want them to know about the world around them. What they do with that information is their choice. We do not attend church but I do pray. I was raised Christian and didn't know about other religions. In college is when I found out about the background of Christanity. I was amazed that through all my years I was never taught the history of religions. I started researching other religions and then decided that I wasn't going to do that to my DC.

[cvanbrunt]

Ha! But - that's the trick - to be able to articulate your convictions and moral code in a way that is not about the absence of faith.

I don't have any trouble doing that.

[cvanbrunt]

You may want to check out the following link. One of the best 'statements of faith' I have heard.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

Yeah, I read that when it came out. It's a great little essay.

[Joolsplus2]

I haven't read all the responses, but I will say I've heard of those books and listen to a lot of podcasts on the issue :) I might check them out :)

[Clarity]

We have talked about what various people believe (including those in our extended families which include conservative Jews, Methodists, Catholics, etc.). When Leah died followed soon by my father, we had to start having conversations about after life, what others think, what we think, etc. If there's one thing I hope my kids know is that they can always talk to us about anything and no subject is off limits. I have told Sarah that she gets to make her own choices about what and how she believes. She knows what we believe and she see what we do as a family (such as it is). I dunno how it will play out for them, I guess we'll see.

Beth,
You can p.m. me back if you think this is too personal or OT for this thread, but I was wondering what you did think and tell your girls about after life. And, I ask this because 1) you brought it up and 2) I'm sure you have nuanced thoughts on the subject 3) dh and I are are also culturally jewish blended with lapsed, formerly observant Methodist. We don't practice anything, and plan to someday teach the kids about religion from more of a historical perspective. But, I get stuck on the afterlife. It's so much a part of how I was raised that it's hard for me to explain death without talking about an afterlife. If I were honest, I'd tell you that really it's because I don't want to die and just be dead myself! *wry smile*

[cvanbrunt]

This is a book one of my colleagues wrote. It does not fall into the "resource" category but is an interesting read on values without a god.


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0521607841?tag=erikjwielenbd-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0521607841&adid=1C9XHVR43E8PYR2EXGNJ&

[dogmom]

Beth,
You can p.m. me back if you think this is too personal or OT for this thread, but I was wondering what you did think and tell your girls about after life. And, I ask this because 1) you brought it up and 2) I'm sure you have nuanced thoughts on the subject 3) dh and I are are also culturally jewish blended with lapsed, formerly observant Methodist. We don't practice anything, and plan to someday teach the kids about religion from more of a historical perspective. But, I get stuck on the afterlife. It's so much a part of how I was raised that it's hard for me to explain death without talking about an afterlife. If I were honest, I'd tell you that really it's because I don't want to die and just be dead myself! *wry smile*

I'm no Beth, but I'm willing to talk about MY discussions of death with my son. He's six now, but about 2 years ago you suddenly "got" death. Don't know why, we had a couple of pets die, but nothing recent. No human deaths. But all the sudden he realized he was going to die and got quite upset about it. Upset we would die, etc. I guess it didn't freak me out too much because I remember being around 5 and being panicked by a sense of my final demise. I have a very memory of not being able to sleep one night being worried about it, probably keeping my mother up, and her telling me "Think of something nice like Santa ." I remember thinking something to the effect of "Santa?! I'm five, not stupid. How is that going to help me with death?" Come to think of it, maybe that's why I don't "do" Santa. It sounds like a South Park episode.

So, the death phase lasted a long time with my son. Tried the whole some people believe you go to heaven and be with the people you love. No dice. And I don't remember that helping me when I was young, and I was religious and did go to CCD. I was still: "But I'm not here and neither are the other people." We talked about reincarnation, MIL is Buddist. He likes that idea better. But, still not pysched about dying. Now he seems more comfortable with it, doesn't cause anxiety attacks. The best I can do is tell him we don't know, that this is why it's important to love the ones you have now, and to remember them when they are not here anymore. He's made the connection between things at school (heart healthy exercise they talk about) and that it's "so you live longer and not die." They don't tell him that, he just figures it out. He occasionally tells his younger sister that she needs to be careful, becuase "she might get hurt and die". Usually at appropriate times when she wants to do something screamingly dangerous.

I know it all must sound morbid to you all, but he's happy, easy going kid, which is backed up by everyone that knows him. He doesn't obsess about it. I don't think having religious convicton would change the dynamic much, it didn't with me. I think the whole "heaven" explanation is a gamble with kids anyway. (not to knock the idea for beleivers) Kids react different. Some kids who loose people close to them firmly believe in heaven and that they will see the person again. Some kids are just pissed at the person or god and don't particularly care that they are in heaven. Got to say, understand the point. There are a LOT of things I'm going to have to explain to my kids I really don't have answers for, except, "And this is one of the reasons we teach you to do certian things." I had to have a discussion with him once about people not thinking Grandma is a good person beause she is African American. That completely made no sense to him. Unfortunately someday it will because somebody else's kid will say something incredibly stupid to him.

[jse107]

This thread is us. I wasn't raised with any particular religion--mom is Jewish, dad is Catholic. DH was baptised Lutheran and that's about it for his church-going. We had a Unitarian wedding ceremony that included an Apache wedding blessing, a communal unity candle, and breaking the glass at the end of the ceremony.

So...we haven't done much with religion. I've toyed with going to our local UU church, but in the end, I'm really too lazy... ;)

As far as explaining death, I've been working with DS on talking about how everything that's living dies and turns back into earth--leaves, trees, plants, animals, and people.

Which lead to: So, someday soon grandma is going to be dirt cause she's so old!

[egoldber]

Well, I don't know that my thoughts are so nuanced on this, but thank you. ;)

I believe that life here is what we get. We are are dealt one hand and we play it and that's it. So I told Sarah exactly that. That I think that we live our lives right now, we try to be healthy so we can live a long, healthy life, but then it's over. And that by the time it happens, I hope I am happy with the life I had. She also does not seem bothered by it, although I am sure she thinks about it and worries about it sometimes. But everyone does whether they believe in an afterlife or not. We all have to come to terms with our mortality in some way.


Some kids who loose people close to them firmly believe in heaven and that they will see the person again. Some kids are just pissed at the person or god and don't particularly care that they are in heaven.

I saw this in my grief groups after Leah died. Some parents were incredibly comforted by their religion. And some people it made them really, really angry. A few lost their faith (maybe they regained it later, I dunno.) But for all of them, their grief was not lessened. You still feel the pain and the loss right now even if you believe in an after life.

[JustMe]

I do not raise dd with religion, although we are culturally Jewish. I think those books sound somewhat interesting, but also have not felt a need. It has been more confusing to me to explain to dd what it means to be culturally Jewish as opposed to not having a religion at all. I was brought up mostly culturally religious (with perhaps a bit more religion than we do now), but that was in NYC and it is much more common there than where we are now. Unfortunately, I really dont know of any local families that are culturally Jewish so that puts dd in a hard and confusing spot as much as I can try to explain it to her. For anyone that is following this far and is interested, she did go through a conversion ceremony as she is adopted and I am not her birthmother. I was surprised that I wanted to do this and even felt as strong as an affinity for the cultural, but there is just a lot of history that is important to me.

[ha98ed14]

I saw this in my grief groups after Leah died. Some parents were incredibly comforted by their religion. And some people it made them really, really angry. A few lost their faith (maybe they regained it later, I dunno.) But for all of them, their grief was not lessened. You still feel the pain and the loss right now even if you believe in an after life.

Beth, I want to know what you this of this:

I do believe in God. But one of the reasons I don't want to have any more children is because I do not want them to have to suffer in life and then ultimately die. It's not enough for me that there is an afterlife (in my belief system). They have to live *this* life. Altho I have no desire to take my own life, I don't see much benefit to being born. If you never exist, you don't know what your missing, so to speak.

I am terrified to die. I thought this fear would subside after I had my own DD, but it didn't. I think I never have come to terms with my own mortality, so I think I won't be able to offer comfort and guidance for DD. I dunno. I could go on and on. My thoughts are not rational on this topic.

[Carrots]

I just wanted to quickly say that I am glad there are others out there like me. I was raised Catholic, but consider myself a non believer. I always feel so alone in my beliefs.... like I am the only one who has chosen this direction.

[egoldber]

They have to live *this* life. Altho I have no desire to take my own life, I don't see much benefit to being born. If you never exist, you don't know what your missing, so to speak.

I am terrified to die. I thought this fear would subside after I had my own DD, but it didn't. I think I never have come to terms with my own mortality, so I think I won't be able to offer comfort and guidance for DD. I dunno. I could go on and on. My thoughts are not rational on this topic.

Well, I'm not looking forward to it. ;) My hope is that by the time I get there, I will be ready (as you ever can be) and not have any major regrets. Just from what I have observed in elderly and very sick people, by the time you get that close to death, generally you have made terms with it and it is not necessarily something to be terrified of. And it has been my personal observation that there are many things in life worse than dying.

[khalloc]

I am!

I was raised Catholic. DH was not raised in a religious household. We did not get married in a religious ceremony. Honestly, I never really liked going to church or any of that. I was happy to finally get out of that once I moved off to college. I guess I do believe in most of Catholic teachings, God, Jesus, heaven etc...but i don't feel i need to go to church to show it. Some of the church's beliefs I definitely don't follow (birth control!).

If my DD asks stuff I dont mind telling her things that some people believe. But I dont want to have to start going to church again.

[mommylamb]

I have one of those books-- Parenting Beyond Belief-- and I must say, I found it unhelpful, and I probably won't buy the other. I really just wanted specific advice regarding different ways to talk to children about big concepts like death.

DH is an atheist and was raised non-religious Church of England. I grew up in a reform Jewish household, but now consider myself Agnostic, though if I had to bet on it, my bet is when you die, you die and that's it. Strangely, My father seems to be doing the opposite of most people as he ages-- moving further and further to the left politically (I don't know what happened to my moderate dad who considered voting for McCain in the Republican primary in 2000). Now he's a total Atheist and is 100% opposed (and vocally so) to all organized religion. Sometimes he says things that I think are kind of offensive actually.

As for resources, there is a parenting board much like this one for Atheist parents called atheistparents.org.

[emily_gracesmama]

Thanks for this thread, I need to get these books, I was raised catholic and husband was born jewish although not raised by his jewish mother, so we have a few issues, he identifies more closely w/ judiasm and we celebrate both holidays in a secular manner, but my focus is on raising them to be good moral people.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

Well, I don't know that my thoughts are so nuanced on this, but thank you. ;)

I believe that life here is what we get. We are are dealt one hand and we play it and that's it. So I told Sarah exactly that. That I think that we live our lives right now, we try to be healthy so we can live a long, healthy life, but then it's over. And that by the time it happens, I hope I am happy with the life I had. She also does not seem bothered by it, although I am sure she thinks about it and worries about it sometimes. But everyone does whether they believe in an afterlife or not. We all have to come to terms with our mortality in some way.



I saw this in my grief groups after Leah died. Some parents were incredibly comforted by their religion. And some people it made them really, really angry. A few lost their faith (maybe they regained it later, I dunno.) But for all of them, their grief was not lessened. You still feel the pain and the loss right now even if you believe in an after life.

I was the pissed kid who HATED God after he "took my mom". I was 5, & raised in a devout Catholic family. For some reason they found it appropriate to tell me how wonderful my mom was, and how God needed her more than me.... Yeah....right.

I believe in an after life of sorts, but maybe as I get older and become more comfortable with my own mortality I will give that up, too. I am agnostic, but believe in Taoist philosophy. I try to look at religion from a philosophical POV.

We do Easter bunnies and eggs, Christmas & Festivus blended, etc. We do the commercial Hallmark type stuff, I will teach her about other religions as she gets older.

[mommylamb]

I

We do Easter bunnies and eggs, Christmas & Festivus blended, etc. We do the commercial Hallmark type stuff, I will teach her about other religions as she gets older.

Do you do the airing of the grievances? The pole? I love the whole festivus thing. :ROTFLMAO:

[fivi2]

I have one of those books-- Parenting Beyond Belief-- and I must say, I found it unhelpful, and I probably won't buy the other. I really just wanted specific advice regarding different ways to talk to children about big concepts like death.

DH is an atheist and was raised non-religious Church of England. I grew up in a reform Jewish household, but now consider myself Agnostic, though if I had to bet on it, my bet is when you die, you die and that's it. Strangely, My father seems to be doing the opposite of most people as he ages-- moving further and further to the left politically (I don't know what happened to my moderate dad who considered voting for McCain in the Republican primary in 2000). Now he's a total Atheist and is 100% opposed (and vocally so) to all organized religion. Sometimes he says things that I think are kind of offensive actually.

As for resources, there is a parenting board much like this one for Atheist parents called atheistparents.org.

Thanks for the board rec. I looked around on there and it seems to have some interesting stuff, especially book recs (for kids) and links to blogs and such.

[niccig]

Thanks for the suggested books and web links. I was raised as non-religious Church of England. As in, CofE was written on forms, but we were never christened or went to church. Easter and Christmas were secular holidays. My parents were Catholic as children but only to get them into certain boarding schools, their families weren't religious. I was told I could belong to any religion, but there was no exposure to religions or any religious education. My religious education came during college where I studied the history of religions in the History Deparment. I did a lot of study in Asian History and learned about Hindiusm/Buddhism/Taoism. I learned about the history of the Catholic church when studying Medieval European History.

DH was raised Catholic, was an altar boy and Catholic HS. He no longer practices and spent many years finding what he believes spiritually.

I'm not so worried about DS's religous education, I want to tell him about different religious beliefs and expose him where I can. DH is more worried, he thinks we need to have a more structured approach, so that DS can experience different beliefs and then make his choice. I think I'm less worried as I grew up without any religious experience and I find my own way as an adult.

[LexyLou]

I don't really know if we fit in raising our children without religion. I mean, they are exposed to it but we aren't "religious". I mean, I guess I believe in god. I mean, I don't know if I believe in god but I'm not ready to rule him/her out. But I don't pray to god or believe he/she has a part in our day to day routines.

I was raised Jewish-reformed. I was bat mitzvah'd and went to high holy day services and occasional Shabbats but I never considered myself really religious. More culturally Jewish.

DH was raised Catholic. My MIL is a former nun. He went to Catholic school from preschool through college but that's not so much because he's religious but he was raised in SF and that's what the good schools were. His mother is religious.

I guess DH believe in Jesus and God but mostly because that's what he was taught. He's not religious, does not pray, and does not believe god is a part of our day to day life.

BUT, my daughters do go to the JCC for preschool. Not so much for the religion, but the culture. I do culturally identify myself as Jewish and hope my girls do too.

We also celebrate Christmas but as others have mentioned, in a secular fashion.

So, wow, I guess I don't know what we are doing. We want them to know their roots and be proud of all the things that make them up but we do not intend on attending church or temple in any regular basis.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

Do you do the airing of the grievances? The pole? I love the whole festivus thing. :ROTFLMAO:

We plan on getting our pole this year, the airing yes, wrestling well DD is only 2, so in a few years. We even send Festivus cards....

http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm

[pinkmomagain]

I was raised Jewish my dh was raised Catholic. Neither of us are religious. I have been atheist possibly leaning towards agnostic. I am however fascinated with religions of all sorts.

We were married by a rabbi and a catholic deacon. All three girls have received a catholic christening and jewish baby naming. We celebrate the major holidays of both, but do not attend services and do not provide our children with religious instruction. Sometimes my older girls have felt out of the loop not going to CCD or hebrew school. They've felt it worse in 2nd grade when everyone was making communion. And now my oldest is feeling it turning 13 and her cousin is being bar mitzvahed. She has also expressed some interest in religion....but is also a bit self-conscious about it. I bought her "Religion for Dummes" and I've encouraged her to read it...it talks about lots of different religions and rituals. I've also told her if she wants to go to a serivce, we'd be happy to take her. I've looked into the Ethical Humanist Society and I know the UC could be a possibility...but honestly we are not looking for an additional identity, my kids know they are 1/2 jewish and 1/2 catholic. So far, things are OK.

BTW, I've been reading A History of God...super interesting...just hard to get thru with kids interupting all the time.

[kayte]

We plan on getting our pole this year, the airing yes, wrestling well DD is only 2, so in a few years. We even send Festivus cards....

http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm

We had a Festivus pole a few years ago at our Holiday party--it was quite the conversation starter!!!

[jent]

I mean, I don't know if I believe in god but I'm not ready to rule him/her out.

I think that's how I would put it too. I was raised Catholic & my mom is still devoutly religious. At one point, I was very into church but in high school college, I did a 180 as I realized that my personal beliefs just didn't square with Catholicism. DH's parents were/are nonreligious and DH is a staunch atheist. Teaching DD our ethics and values is not the issue; I feel that we can do that in our day to day life: this is what our family does, we treat each other kindly, we don't lie/cheat/steal, do unto others, etc. One of our biggest discussions (for me anyway) is about holidays-- DH would prefer to ignore them, but I would like to come up with family traditions that we're both comfortable with.

Another issue is just learning the basics of Christianity-- I feel that this is background education that most Americans have, but DH, because of his upbringing, has just never heard before. Not that one needs to believe in it, but if something's referred to (such as, "this is like the miracle of the loaves and the fishes") he's never heard of it. As I type this, I suppose this is a small issue, but I want DD to be well-educated.

And teaching her about death/afterlife... I hadn't even gotten close to figuring that out, I suppose mainly because that is an area where I'm not sure what I believe.

Anyway, thanks for starting this thread. It's given me some food for thought on an issue that I always put off thinking about until another holiday comes up and DH and I go through our round of disagreements. (I think I actually started a thread about this last Easter). I do want to check out those books because I'm one of those people who likes to have a book for everything. I've considered looking into our local UU church, though I'm not sure I could even get DH through the door, and to be honest, I'm not sure if it's what I want/need either. I do like the idea of joining a community-- to be honest, that is what I truly miss about church.

But now, celebrating Festivus, I hadn't even considered that. It could totally solve at least one of our holiday problems-- I think DH would totally be on board. A pole instead of a tree? Sign him up!

[StantonHyde]

Just to add some ideas in here. I was raised Episcopalian and "converted" to Quakerism. DH has no religious background whatsoever.

1. Celebrating holidays. While my family is Episcopalian, we celebrated the "pagan" origins of each holiday. Why? Because it is tied to nature cycles and that means a lot to my family. So the winter solstice is a BIG deal to us--hey, when you live somewhere where it is 20 degrees below zero, you get really excited that the days are getting longer!! Easter is a great nature holiday. So if you want to get away from the commercialization of holidays and look for deeper meaning without religion--I think this is a great option and one I intend to pass on to my kids.

2. Religious literacy. I bring this up because when we went to Italy on our honeymoon and toured all the cathedrals there were amazing paintings/frescoes/wood carvings etc of all the major bible stories. I could really appreciate it. DH would say "what is that?" and I would reply "ummm, Moses and the bullrushes". I also knew of a family where they were bringing their child up in a secular household. They went to visit family and that meant a trip to the "living creche". The little boy made remarks like "Is that cow going to eat that baby? Why is that baby in a barn anyway?" Pretty funny, but the parents decided that it might be a good idea to make sure their son had some knowledge of the religious stories etc. So I think it is a good idea to make sure your kids know the major bible stories or references. When I took literature classes in college there were so many biblical references. I don't mean knowing scripture and verse, but you should know what a "prodigal son" means.

I think it is a good idea to extend this to all major world religions and it is something that I am going to challenge myself to do--so that I know the major stories of all religions. I think that if I was not religious, I might wait until my kids were older to introduce these stories. On the other hand, there are some interesting historical stories here and if you can edit as you read, then there are some good stories to share. Even as a Christian I edit as I read--e.g. Noah and the Ark-I just say the world started over, not that people were wicked.

This is a an interesting thread to read. I really want my kids to know about all world religions. When they get a bit older, I am looking forward to celebrating different holidays. I'll bet you could find an interesting religious holiday for every month if you look for it! And I think it is a great way to show kids how different people live etc.

[egoldber]

I agree that from a cultural literacy standpoint, I want my kids to know about these things. Somehow they just seem to come up and we talk about them as they do. :)

[fivi2]

Just to add some ideas in here. I was raised Episcopalian and "converted" to Quakerism. DH has no religious background whatsoever.

1. Celebrating holidays. While my family is Episcopalian, we celebrated the "pagan" origins of each holiday. Why? Because it is tied to nature cycles and that means a lot to my family. So the winter solstice is a BIG deal to us--hey, when you live somewhere where it is 20 degrees below zero, you get really excited that the days are getting longer!! Easter is a great nature holiday. So if you want to get away from the commercialization of holidays and look for deeper meaning without religion--I think this is a great option and one I intend to pass on to my kids.

2. Religious literacy. I bring this up because when we went to Italy on our honeymoon and toured all the cathedrals there were amazing paintings/frescoes/wood carvings etc of all the major bible stories. I could really appreciate it. DH would say "what is that?" and I would reply "ummm, Moses and the bullrushes". I also knew of a family where they were bringing their child up in a secular household. They went to visit family and that meant a trip to the "living creche". The little boy made remarks like "Is that cow going to eat that baby? Why is that baby in a barn anyway?" Pretty funny, but the parents decided that it might be a good idea to make sure their son had some knowledge of the religious stories etc. So I think it is a good idea to make sure your kids know the major bible stories or references. When I took literature classes in college there were so many biblical references. I don't mean knowing scripture and verse, but you should know what a "prodigal son" means.

I think it is a good idea to extend this to all major world religions and it is something that I am going to challenge myself to do--so that I know the major stories of all religions. I think that if I was not religious, I might wait until my kids were older to introduce these stories. On the other hand, there are some interesting historical stories here and if you can edit as you read, then there are some good stories to share. Even as a Christian I edit as I read--e.g. Noah and the Ark-I just say the world started over, not that people were wicked.

This is a an interesting thread to read. I really want my kids to know about all world religions. When they get a bit older, I am looking forward to celebrating different holidays. I'll bet you could find an interesting religious holiday for every month if you look for it! And I think it is a great way to show kids how different people live etc.

Great points! I also prefer to emphasize the pagan roots of the holidays that we do celebrate. It ties it to the earth/nature for me and gives us a reason for celebrating. (instead of "well, everyone else is and even though we don't believe what they believe we're crashing the party..." iykwim)

And ita that religious literacy is important. I do plan to introduce stories from most major religions as I introduce mythology and such... I have a hard time knowing when to start these things. There is a lot of violence in fairy tales, myths, and religious stories. I have held off so far, but I knopw other kids have been introduced already...

[egoldber]

In the last few months, I have introduced Sarah to Greek and Norse myths and she LOVES them. We found several nice illustrated mythology collections at the library.

It would be nice to find a child appropriate book that discusses stories from the major religions in a similar way. But I want a book that treats them as cultural stories, not as religious truth, if that makes any sense.

[nov04]

Thanks for this thread, I need to get these books, I was raised catholic and husband was born jewish although not raised by his jewish mother, so we have a few issues, he identifies more closely w/ judiasm and we celebrate both holidays in a secular manner, but my focus is on raising them to be good moral people.

my thoughts too. I have several books already (not already mentioned, too lazy to go look them up) and have noted all the books mentioned.

[ast96]

Me too. My husband was raised Catholic and wants nothing to do with the church. I was raised by parents who have no use for organized religion. So officially, I believe we are agnostics who do not favor organized religion.

My kids have been in Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopalian schools. Sometimes we are uncomfortable with the religion lessons (particularly at the Methodist school, for whatever reason), but as an English major, I do think that religious literacy is important for a reference when reading literature. There are so many religious allusions in texts that i never caught because I had no religious background. So I am okay with them learning Bible stories. We just treat them like that -- stories -- just like fairy tales and other stories.

[mommylamb]

Funny story about the lack of religious literacy-

I went to grad school in England at a very diverse university. One of my flat mates is British and non-religious Church of England. Another was from Bahrain and she is Muslim. I'm the Agnostic Jew by culture. One day, I walk into the kitchen and they're both in there. The Brit announces to me that she's giving up Chocolate for Lent. The Bahraini announces that she is too. So, I explain to her that Lent is a Christian thing and that as a Muslim that's not exactly what she does. At which point, the Brit announces she had no idea that giving up things for Lent had anything to do with Christianity.

[fivi2]

In the last few months, I have introduced Sarah to Greek and Norse myths and she LOVES them. We found several nice illustrated mythology collections at the library.

It would be nice to find a child appropriate book that discusses stories from the major religions in a similar way. But I want a book that treats them as cultural stories, not as religious truth, if that makes any sense.

I haven't read any of these, but there was a thread on that atheist parents forum listed above that had some books for kids listed:
http://www.atheistparents.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7928

Also, I am intrigued by several on these Amazon lists:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Books-for-Young-Skeptics/lm/P7DK3U4TJND7/ref=cm_lmt_dtpa_f_3_rdssss0?pf_rd_p=253462201&pf_rd_s=listmania-center&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0879751061&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0CCSE2CKB5GGQ01DKAH6

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-a-Free-Thinker/lm/3QPWAETDLI3WA/ref=cm_lmt_fvlm_f_5_rlrsrs0

I am still playing around on Amazon, but thought some of these sounded good!

eta: one more:
http://www.amazon.com/Books-DVDs-help-children-free-thinkers/lm/R5QG8E0RPJBUP/ref=cm_lmt_fvlm_f_1_rlrsrs0

[mommy111]

Funny story about the lack of religious literacy-

I went to grad school in England at a very diverse university. One of my flat mates is British and non-religious Church of England. Another was from Bahrain and she is Muslim. I'm the Agnostic Jew by culture. One day, I walk into the kitchen and they're both in there. The Brit announces to me that she's giving up Chocolate for Lent. The Bahraini announces that she is too. So, I explain to her that Lent is a Christian thing and that as a Muslim that's not exactly what she does. At which point, the Brit announces she had no idea that giving up things for Lent had anything to do with Christianity.
:hysterical:

[pinkmomagain]

It would be nice to find a child appropriate book that discusses stories from the major religions in a similar way. But I want a book that treats them as cultural stories, not as religious truth, if that makes any sense.

Yes, this is something I'd be looking for too. I agree that it's important for kids/adults to know these stories as they are referenced in literature, art, etc. When I went to college we were required to take a couple of classes that studied the old and new testaments as literature, since these stories are echoed so much in western civilization.

[kayte]

When I went to college we were required to take a couple of classes that studied the old and new testaments as literature, since these stories are echoed so much in western civilization.

I was lucky enough, at a Catholic school, to spend my high school sophomore year English class studying the bible as literature along with all types of similar stories from other cultures. It was quite eye opening to learn how the Egyptian stories of Horus parallel so much of the New Testament. And then to see the same things show up in stories in other cultures as time went on until the bible was written down. It gave me a real understanding how cultures have always used storytelling as a means to educate the masses and giving me grounds for interpreting religious messages in some context.

I have found this series of books "Holidays Around the World" by National Geographic to be very good. We have lots of them --from Easter to Ramadan. They have great pictures of both religious and purely cultural practices (usually with children--which appeals to DD) and it presents it as "Some people believe that..." concerning the background (which is pretty lite but a nice even starting point).

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/979/3246/970.html

Several of the titles recently came out in soft back but I have been lucky enough to find them in hardback at our local used bookstore chain for about $6-8 each. My library also carries many titles.

fivi2 - Thanks for the links to the books.

[egoldber]

Oh those holiday books look nice!

In a similar vein, we got these two series of videos from the library:

http://www.familiesoftheworld.com/

http://www.libraryvideo.com/results.asp?stype=kw&qs=families+around+the+world&i_ACTIVE_ITM=1&f_NAME=&Exact=N&i_FROM_GRADE=1&i_TO_GRADE=20&f_WITEM_TYPE=&f_LANGUAGES=&o_COPY_RIGHT=%3D&i_COPY_RIGHT=&ssf=RANK+DESC&key=LVC&mod=Search&mscssid=8BT7HMG1U7548MS41L1F570C55TU25U5

Each video is about 30 minutes and highlights one or two families from each country/area. The video is told from a child's point of view and shows the child's daily routine and often highlights a religious or cultural celebration. Sarah found these really fascinating.