This may be a heated question but.....

[newg]

WWYD in this situation..........I was up all last night thinking about it.......

If you knew that either you and/or your spouse did not have a secure job (money wise and just keeping the actual job)....did not have the greatest track record for finding a good (meaning pays well) job......would you continue to have kids??

We have good friends who are now living off relatives because the DH just quit his all comission job (there's a good chance they were going to fire him anyways because he hasn't made any money in quite a few months) in hopes he gets a job as a pharma rep.....my DH spent over an hour last night trying to coach him on how to do well in the interview ('cause the guy has no filter on his mouth)........mom sells stuff on ebay but use to be a teacher...........and they just had their third kid a little bit ago............

now, I would never ever ever say anything to them....and I know everyone has their own reasons for continuing to have kids.........but doesn't financial responsibility play a little into it???.....if your income was sketchy and only one of you truly worked full time would you keep having kids even if there was a good chance you couldn't afford it??

Again, I know this could blow up in my face....but I had to ask someone else for their thoughts..

[Ceepa]

I see where you're coming from. IMO if you know you're in financial turmoil and it's only getting worse, then you should rethink intentionally bringing more kids into the situation.

[Andi98989]

I am not opposed to using birth control, so if I was in a situation where I knew we had a very unstable income and nothing in savings to live off of, I would opt to be using some sort of protection and not have additional children. Granted, you never know what will happen in life, but I would not feel comfortable intentionally/knowingly bringing a child into that situation. That's rough on everyone.

Then again, there are those who do not want to use birth control, who have a failure and end up pregnant when they did not intend to, and those who just don't think that far into the future to really consider the "consequences."

[BeccaB.]

I see where you're coming from. IMO if you know you're in financial turmoil and it's only getting worse, then you should rethink intentionally bringing more kids into the situation.

:yeahthat:

[jse107]

My own personal belief is that if you are in a relationship where you are talking/planning having kids, then you should also be prepared to be able to provide for them. Obviously, there are always surprises along the way in which that statement wouldn't apply.

To me, this is part of being a reponsible adult. It's the same for getting a pet or buying a car or house--you should be sure you are able to provide basic needs before moving forward.

JMHO.

[kijip]

Often people in this situation don't see it themselves. They may be in total denial about their limited job skills or their economic prospects. That may be one reason they keep having kids, much to the frustration of those around them.

Personally, if we were on very shaky financial ground I would not go out and try to have another child. But let's examine what shaky financial ground is:

Financial security is relative. We had our first son when we were both in college. J worked as a sales clerk (which oddly, paid more than the teaching job he was becoming eligible for). I worked at a non-profit. Many on this board would not have thought that was a financially secure enough position from which to have a child. Still, should I have had an abortion because we did not own a house or have a huge amount of money? Of course not. T's "nursery" was a 3 in 1 pack in play in the corner of a studio loft apartment. We drove a Toyota Corolla and certainly could not have afforded a second car (without giving up savings etc). But even on those limited means, T was well fed, well cared for and likely had more extras than he needed. Knowing that, I tend to not judge the circumstances that others become parents in.

I know some big families that live on tight budgets and kids go without a lot of stuff that my boys take for granted (like lots of fresh produce, new quality shoes etc). I would not want to as thinly stretched as they are but I don't judge them for not having the same idea of what the basics are. So long as they can provide love and food and shelter, I just don't think it is my business.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I think you need to make decisions that are reasonable and responsible. "Oops" babies happen and you need to roll with it but intentionally getting pg when you don't have the stability (whether that be financial, emotional, physical...) doesn't make sense to me. It wouldn't be a choice I would make because it would be way too stressful. If you are opposed to birth control then practice abstinence. There are options.

There are people that don't set stock in financial stability and independence. Or they are comfortable with a different quality of life than I am. It's hard to apply my ideal to someone else's family.

Beth

[Ceepa]

I would not want to as thinly stretched as they are but I don't judge them for not having the same idea of what the basics are. So long as they can provide love and food and shelter, I just don't think it is my business.

Playing Devil's Advocate- when they can't provide then does it become your (or anyone else's) business? When we support those in need do we then get a say? I'm guessing you personally will say no. ;)

[Clarity]

Often people in this situation don't see it themselves. They may be in total denial about their limited job skills or their economic prospects. That may be one reason they keep having kids, much to the frustration of those around them.

Personally, if we were on very shaky financial ground I would not go out and try to have another child. But let's examine what shaky financial ground is:

Financial security is relative. We had our first son when we were both in college. J worked as a sales clerk (which oddly, paid more than the teaching job he was becoming eligible for). I worked at a non-profit. Many on this board would not have thought that was a financially secure enough position from which to have a child. Still, should I have had an abortion because we did not own a house or have a huge amount of money? Of course not. T's "nursery" was a 3 in 1 pack in play in the corner of a studio loft apartment. We drove a Toyota Corolla and certainly could not have afforded a second car (without giving up savings etc). But even on those limited means, T was well fed, well cared for and likely had more extras than he needed. Knowing that, I tend to not judge the circumstances that others become parents in.

I know some big families that live on tight budgets and kids go without a lot of stuff that my boys take for granted (like lots of fresh produce, new quality shoes etc). I would not want to as thinly stretched as they are but I don't judge them for not having the same idea of what the basics are. So long as they can provide love and food and shelter, I just don't think it is my business.

I wanted to add for Katie, that the big difference here is that you were financially independent, meager resources maybe, but they were your resources. OP's example states that the people who are currently under our microscope, are not.

[kijip]

I wanted to add for Katie, that the big difference here is that you were financially independent, meager resources maybe, but they were your resources. OP's example states that the people who are currently under our microscope, are not.

But in some families and some cultures, extended family living/supporting your relatives is not out of the norm. Again, it's not how I live but it's not my business.

[kijip]

Playing Devil's Advocate- when they can't provide then does it become your (or anyone else's) business? When we support those in need do we then get a say? I'm guessing you personally will say no. ;)

It becomes my business to lend a helping, rather than a judgmental, hand. Not to go all religious, but that is what my religion teaches- to love one another and care for others in their time of need. Period. Also something along the lines of Judge not lest...

Now, I fully get that my religion is not everyone's and that is fine but I personally feel a great call to the service of others, mostly due to my religious upbringing.

I fall far short of not judging people. I am the least perfect person I know. It drives me batty to see abusive or neglectful parents and I really shake my head at things others see no issue with. I certainly in such cases it is the children, being innocents, I aim to help the most. But the fact remains that being poor, on it's own, does not make someone a bad parent. And being financially well off does not make someone a good parent. Being a parent is more than that.

[kijip]

I wanted to add for Katie, that the big difference here is that you were financially independent, meager resources maybe, but they were your resources. OP's example states that the people who are currently under our microscope, are not.

But frankly, we were financial independent because we had the skills to make well over the minimum wage. What if instead of being college kids with great educations we were high school graduates working at fast food jobs and became pregnant under the same circumstances? Had that been the case w would have been eligible for food stamps. There are many that would judge or deride a couple in that situation. What if we did not have the ability to off shift and use family babysitters and needed to get a childcare subsidy? Again, there are those that would judge or deride that. We were very fortunate, but others are not. And like T's pregnancy was unplanned and the result of bc failure, many others without our resources have the same situation.

[Clarity]

Being a parent is more than that.

Agreed. Good point.

[mommylamb]

Playing Devil's Advocate- when they can't provide then does it become your (or anyone else's) business? When we support those in need do we then get a say? I'm guessing you personally will say no. ;)

If they can't provide love, food or shelter, then it's the state's business. It's sad, but sometimes families are separated by child services when a family becomes homeless for precisely that reason. Now, I think the state should play a role in helping to provide that family food and shelter (obviously the state doesn't control love) rather than putting a child in foster care, but when those programs aren't available, foster care is what happens.

[newg]

I will add some more info after reading some of the pp comments......
.....They had about three months worth of savings (for house payment and bills).....used that up a few months ago...
They are wonderful parents and would give their kids the moon if they could.....they had two boys and wanted a girl, so that's why they had a third kid.......
Like I said the DH's job was 100% commission...he was in sales and it was related to the job market.....so about three/four years ago he was doing okay so they bought a bigger house for their growing family...........
Since the job market has gone down the tubes so did his possible sales market......

So I guess that's what I don't get.........the fall of his comission check was not overnight....and they made the decision to have another child while already on a budget...

I can understand oops babies happen....I can understand not expecting to loose your job.......obviously I am judging them.....but I still support them as friends and hope his interview goes well on Friday....I guess that's all I can do...

[kijip]

I will add some more info after reading some of the pp comments......
.....They had about three months worth of savings (for house payment and bills).....used that up a few months ago...
They are wonderful parents and would give their kids the moon if they could.....they had two boys and wanted a girl, so that's why they had a third kid.......
Like I said the DH's job was 100% commission...he was in sales and it was related to the job market.....so about three/four years ago he was doing okay so they bought a bigger house for their growing family...........
Since the job market has gone down the tubes so did his possible sales market......

So I guess that's what I don't get.........the fall of his omission check was not overnight....and they made the decision to have another child while already on a budget...

I can understand oops babies happen....I can understand not expecting to loose your job.......obviously I am judging them.....but I still support them as friends and hope his interview goes well on Friday....I guess that's all I can do...

I just want to commend you for being helpful to them with job search and interview coaching help! And also say I really do see why it's a puzzle. I try to remember that we all have a different relationship with money. Personally, I have an obsessive need for security. I have a very high standard for what must be in our reserves. Currently we have 175% of that standard in non-retirement on hand savings. But then I know other people that live paycheck to paycheck and spend (sometimes on things unneeded, things that I with a higher income and more assets feel I can't afford) everything their earn. I don't get that. But again, I try to not judge. Certainly there are many good, no great, parents that live check to check with little wiggle. Everyone has a different approach to money. On this board for example most of the time my answer to questions like "should I buy..." would be "put the money in a damn bank account" but that is a judgmental opinion I try to not only keep to myself but also try to stop having. It's not my life.

[elliput]

Me, personally, no. I would not continue to have children.

Now your friends may have other reasons for their actions which they have not divulged. It could be that the relatives encouraged the DH to quit his job and expected the family to be living off of them. I have seen some families that work this way, and for them it works well. There could be religious reasons also. Or it could be that they are just the type that are happy-go-lucky and don't worry about the future.

Whatever the case is, just don't get caught up in helping them- 'cause that could be disastrous.

[kijip]

Whatever the case is, just don't get caught up in helping them- 'cause that could be disastrous.

I agree that no help should be given that is not given as a gift you can afford. Never lend money, never do more than you can. But helping with interviews etc is all a very nice gesture. I wish the OP and her friends well.

[niccig]

. I try to remember that we all have a different relationship with money.

I have to keep reminding myself of this too. We know people in a similar situation to the OP. Things have been financially dicey for sometime, and 1 month before DC#2 was born the DH was laid off. Through no fault of his own he lost his job, but the over extension of their credit is their responsibility. They might lose their house and have to file bankruptcy on the credit card/car loans debt.

Like Katie I do need a higher level of security. I've lived the life of the bank calling the house when I was a child. I do not want to put DS through that insecurity. So, if I was in their shoes, I would have held off on having another child. But it's not my life and it's not my decision. I do worry about extended family members, who may pitch in to help out and put their own retirement at risk. But again, I have to remind myself, that it is their decision to help or not. And who knows, maybe they will land a job or find a way to keep themselves financially afloat. I know I couldn't live with the uncertainty and all the stress, but that's me and my relationship with money. I also have to not take on the stress for them, and I might suggest you do the same. Help out where you can, but if you find yourself spending a lot of your time worrying about what they are going to do, then you might need to step back a little and remember it is their life and decisions and your worrying doesn't help you or them.

[kransden]

People do stupid things all the time, why would family planning be any different?? Logic doesn't play into some people's decision making process.
ETA Heck logically most people wouldn't ever have children.

[MNmomtobe]

deleted...

[Ceepa]

.....they had two boys and wanted a girl, so that's why they had a third kid.........

Huh? They used up their savings in this situation? :6:

[kijip]

Huh? They used up their savings in this situation? :6:

Yeah, kids are not baseball cards, collect them all and win a prize.

[ohiomom]

I encourage everyone posting or interested in this thread to read the book "Promises I can keep: why poor women put motherhood before marriage" by Kathryn Edin and Maria Kefalas. This book is an indepth reporting of the results of a study conducted in Philly. I am only 1/3 way through it. A legal services attorney I work with read it and then advised our entire work group to read it and form a book club to start discussions about the book. It is so eye opening and shows that almost all the opinions expressed in this thread arise out of the narrow lenses of our more affluent (compared to the the study subjects' economic conditions) (and western) experiences. Ours isn't the only "way" or the only philosophy of what is "right" or "wrong". It's a VERY interesting read.

[newg]

Huh? They used up their savings in this situation? :6:

No, they had their third without any "help".........but the DH is/was 100% comission and when the job market started falling he stopped bringing home enough money to pay the bills, so they started dipping into their emergency (bill paying) funds.......they made it about three months and now family is paying the bills while he looks for a job....


So here's another question DH and I talked about.......if I knew we were in financial trouble I would find a way to work (instead of being a full time SAHM)........either have friends and family babysit DD or worse case...one of us work nights, the other works days.........so I guess I don't get that part of the story either....why won't the mom contribute by looking for some kind of work....I don't think her ebay business makes much, if any....it's more of a hobby.....

[niccig]

So here's another question DH and I talked about.......if I knew we were in financial trouble I would find a way to work (instead of being a full time SAHM)........either have friends and family babysit DD or worse case...one of us work nights, the other works days.........so I guess I don't get that part of the story either....why won't the mom contribute by looking for some kind of work....I don't think her ebay business makes much, if any....it's more of a hobby.....

Did we know the same people? If it wasn't for the 100% commission job, I would say we do know them. Same situation. I know the wife has always wanted to be a SAHM, and she has said it's her DH's job to work outside the home and her job is to be at home. Again, if DH was out of work, I would be looking for employment too, but I have always known that I will go back to work someday, so maybe that makes it easier for me. I don't get the refusal to work when there is NO income at all, but I don't think that way. Like you, I would do all that I could and I would work out a child care situation. Maybe they feel that the cost of childcare would be too much and her working wouldn't bring much money in.

[wellyes]

People do stupid things all the time, why would family planning be any different?? Logic doesn't play into some people's decision making process.
ETA Heck logically most people wouldn't ever have children.

I think this sums it up entirely.

[Ceepa]

No, they had their third without any "help".........but the DH is/was 100% comission and when the job market started falling he stopped bringing home enough money to pay the bills, so they started dipping into their emergency (bill paying) funds.......they made it about three months and now family is paying the bills while he looks for a job........

Yeah, I didn't mean they used up their savings to pay for fertility treatments. I guess I don't understand the motivation for their choices. But whatever. I hope the husband gets the job so he can support his family.


So here's another question DH and I talked about.......if I knew we were in financial trouble I would find a way to work (instead of being a full time SAHM)........either have friends and family babysit DD or worse case...one of us work nights, the other works days.........so I guess I don't get that part of the story either....why won't the mom contribute by looking for some kind of work....I don't think her ebay business makes much, if any....it's more of a hobby.....

And now the mom is probably stuck because trying to arrange childcare would negate the income she could bring in while DH job searches.

[happymom]

I just wanted to add, although you probably realize this already, that we often don't know what goes on behind closed doors. Even in the lives of our very close friends. There may be a very good reason why the wife isnt going to work. And of course there may be not. But its just something to keep in mind. I know I have been in situations where I realize that my behavior or decisions may be puzzling to family/friends, but I am not willing to disclose private information just to fill their curiosity. That said, this is an interesting thread to follow!

[kijip]

I encourage everyone posting or interested in this thread to read the book "Promises I can keep: why poor women put motherhood before marriage" by Kathryn Edin and Maria Kefalas.

:yeahthat: It's a great book, for those interested in the subject.

[gatorsmom]

Often people in this situation don't see it themselves. They may be in total denial about their limited job skills or their economic prospects. That may be one reason they keep having kids, much to the frustration of those around them.



I think this is it in very many situations. We have several tenants living in our rental properties whose rent is subsidized. These are in most cases single moms with 4 or 5 children. And they continue to have children even though they can't afford the ones they have. They are totally in denial about their situation.

A friend of mine said once something that is so true. She said that some people just have a harder time living than other people. I think what she meant was that day-to-day things that seem like common sense to us, others just don't get. Or, like kijip and ohiomom said, different backgrounds, different cultures, different religions all see things in a way that mainstream America doesn't.

My personal opinion on this is to try to help others without judging them (nobody likes that even though we feel we are certainly right) and walk away knowing that the good things we do affect the world in more ways than we can see. Not always easy, granted.

[rachelh]

So I did not have time to really read through the responses but there are people who believe (I do not really feel this way) with every kid there comes more blessing to the home.

Rachel

[KBecks]

Since the third child is here, there's no point to analyze it. I would not try for a fourth in that situation, but I would not terminate a pregnancy if it would happen.

[KBecks]

My husband is also in sales and we've gone from him having his best year ever to his worst year ever. It is a huge change in terms of money. If he were 100% commission we would be in financial trouble and probably leaning on relatives too, because the market is rough right now. (Edited to clarify: we have savings, but it only would last so long and no income would be a very high stress situation.)

My DH could see that things were going to get tighter for some time... but honestly I don't know if there is a 'safe haven'. I know another couple where the husband was laid off, found a new job, was laid off again when the new company was forced to make big job cuts, and now he's looking again. It's nothing to do with his skills or work ethic, it's just that the job market is difficult. Even if you went and changed jobs, it doesn't mean that there's necessarily that much more security.

[KBecks]

And now the mom is probably stuck because trying to arrange childcare would negate the income she could bring in while DH job searches.

Well there are 24 hours in the day, there should be enough time to work even a part time job to help out -- but trying to find any job right now is challenging - and then you have to consider whether taking a part time minimum wage really helps enough to be worth it.

Since the mom is a teacher, getting a teaching position could help them a ton, particularly with the health benefits, if she could find something. I find it odd that the DH quit though.... if he were laid off he would have gotten unemployment, right? Maybe not b/c of the 100% commission? I don't know.

ETA: Also for us, my formerly steady, good pay part time job has dried up and I'm off for the summer or longer because there's not enough work right now. It was a nice little "extra". Just citing personal experience that all jobs are harder to come by right now.

Not the choices I would make, but it's not worth losing your sleep over!

[egoldber]

Well there are 24 hours in the day, there should be enough time to work even a part time job to help out -- but trying to find any job right now is challenging - and then you have to consider whether taking a part time minimum wage really helps enough to be worth it.

Since the mom is a teacher, getting a teaching position could help them a ton, particularly with the health benefits, if she could find something. I find it odd that the DH quit though.... if he were laid off he would have gotten unemployment, right?

I think they said he wants to be a pharma rep? Which implies travel and an irregular schedule, making a job outside the home for her more problematic.

Depending on the age of the children, full time child care for 3 children (especially when one is an infant) could easily be more than a teacher's salary. So unless they can rely on family for full time child care, it's a huge problem. And these days, a lot of school districts are laying off teachers, not hiring (unless she has a desirable specialty like special education, HS/MS math, etc.).

[egoldber]

A friend of mine said once something that is so true. She said that some people just have a harder time living than other people. I think what she meant was that day-to-day things that seem like common sense to us, others just don't get.

I really do think this is true. I'm not sure why. My neice is like this. I can see when she is in a complicated situation she just does not seem to be able to process the information. I helped her enroll for community college classes and I had to literally go into the financial aid office with her and hear what the person there was telling her. She literally was not able to take in what was told to her and apply it despite being given (what seemed to me) extremely clear instructions, that I was then able to repeat back to her many times.

I helped her step by step through the process. And even then she managed to totally mess it up after I left town even after I thought everything was settled. :dizzy: I don't know what you can do for someone like that. She is NOT dumb, but situations of any complexity at all just seem beyond her comprehension.