View Full Version : OMG, school social horror stories
ha98ed14
08-03-2009, 03:40 PM
More from my adolescent psych class. Are kids really this cruel? According to research I am reading, peer rejection begins as early as 2nd and 3rd grade and once you are labeled as out, it may last through high school. Kid who are "popular", 15% of the school population, are defined in middle school by their good looks, well dressed (wearing A&F and Hollister) and money (or the stuff money buys; ipods, etc.) Being athletic helps too. Then there are the kids who are actively or passively rejected (4%) depending on if peers ridicule them or just don't include them.
I don't even know what I want for DD. Do I want her to be popular? Honestly, I don't like what that image stands for and promotes, but at the same time, I don't want her to be rejected. My SIL was particularly scarred by rejection in middle school and that has contributed in large part to her decision to homeschool. I can respect that decision, but what about the kids for whom that is not an option? (I'm asking as a parent and (future) educator.) What do we do for our kids and out students? Now I am really worried.
Melaine
08-03-2009, 03:49 PM
This worries me too. I have asked myself the same question "are kids really that cruel?" when I see the way that bullying is portrayed on television or hear stories from other people. I actually WAS homeschooled so I have to say I never experienced bullying. This is a huge issue for me.
egoldber
08-03-2009, 03:57 PM
Yes, kids really can be that cruel. And yes, it does start early.
I was socially ostracized at school from a very young age and I can definitely tell you it scarred me for life and still affects me as an adult. And I can tell you the pain you felt as a child is NOTHING like the pain you feel as a parent watching your child go through it.
justlearning
08-03-2009, 03:58 PM
I'm glad that DS is going to a charter school (K-12) that has a strict uniform policy. Their clothes also aren't allowed to have any brand labels on them, so that's one way of leveling the playing field. Of course, it doesn't address all the other factors you mentioned (good looks, personal items demonstrating wealth, etc.). But at least it's a start. Honestly, all the kids at his school look rather nerdy with their buttoned-up, tucked-in polo shirt, dress pants with belts, and dress shoes! :) They look WAY different than the kids at the other schools around here without uniform policies.
On a side note, it sounds like you need to be careful to not let all your research worry you too much! I know how it is--when I was doing research on extamarital affairs, I became so paranoid and starting asking DH all the time if he was faithful! So, sometimes, it's better not to apply the literature to your own life too much. :)
kijip
08-03-2009, 03:59 PM
I think middle school is basically wasteland at a lot of schools where little is learned besides social order/bullying. I also think low academic expectations between 5th and 9th grade make middle school often worthless from a learning standpoint. I did not go to school at all from 7th grade until I started high school in 9th grade. I swear the material in 9th grade was not particularly advanced from what I learned in 6th grade. It is a slightly deeper swipe at the same subjects again and again from 5th to 9th grade, besides any advanced math offerings or foreign language. My decision to stay home (technically I was marked as home schooled but my home learning was walking to the library) was sparked by a matter unrelated to school (having been sexually assaulted in the 6th grade I just plain was not up to going to school). But from a social and academic standpoint, I think I did better at home not going to school than I would have otherwise. It gave me a serious leg up on the high school reading and writing and it made me a hard protective case against any crap in high school. Also after 2 years at home I was ready to become a more social being. Being outgoing helps in school.
There has to be a way to let kid hit puberty and learn at the same time that is better than the typical American middle school.
ha98ed14
08-03-2009, 04:01 PM
Yes, kids really can be that cruel. And yes, it does start early.
I was socially ostracized at school from a very young age and I can definitely tell you it scarred me for life and still affects me as an adult. And I can tell you the pain you felt as a child is NOTHING like the pain you feel as a parent watching your child go through it.
I believe you, but I find this so bizarre. Of course I don't know you IRL, but you stike me as one of the most informed, level headed and practical moms I have met. Plus empathetic and thoughtful. WHY is that a recipe for rejection?
I know in the past you have mentioned a desire to homeschool. Is this part of the reason?
wellyes
08-03-2009, 04:02 PM
I think this is one of those times you really want your child to be average. Not a social reject, not popular in that they become the people who reject others - kwim?
I read somewhere that the key to raising a socially well-adjusted child is to teach her to be a good friend. I think that is great advice.
kijip
08-03-2009, 04:06 PM
I believe you, but I find this so bizarre. Of course I don't know you IRL, but you stike me as one of the most informed, level headed and practical moms I have met. Plus empathetic and thoughtful. WHY is that a recipe for rejection?
Being exceptionally bright in school often leads to being outcasted or stigmatized in early grades. I would reckon most of the nicest, smartest people I know who went to grade school experienced this to some degree. Part of it is just not seeing the world the same as others or having very different interests than your peers or being bored.
kijip
08-03-2009, 04:07 PM
I read somewhere that the key to raising a socially well-adjusted child is to teach her to be a good friend. I think that is great advice.
:yeahthat:
egoldber
08-03-2009, 04:07 PM
I know in the past you have mentioned a desire to homeschool. Is this part of the reason?
Yes, this is part of the reason. The other is the aspect that Katie mentioned. I think that so often school is a wasteland where kids learn virtually nothing. I've already seen this with Sarah.
As for why was I picked on? I was poor, I had bad clothes, bad hair and I was smart. Not a good combo where I grew up.
brittone2
08-03-2009, 04:12 PM
As a homeschooler, this is a topic I find interesting. After the 10,000th question of "aren't you worried about socialization??" I often get the urge to beat my head into a wall.
I think many kids have good experiences socially in school. Almost all kids IMO will have *some* terrible experiences (as a parent you just hope those are few and far between). Some kids will spend much of their school time being ostracized, and some will spend much of their time ostracizing others. I think when you look at the number of kids that are picked on or actually participate in the social hierarchy game of picking on others, it impacts a significant percentage of children.
I agree w/ Katie that middle school years are particularly cruel :( I think a lot of it could be improved if kids that age had more of a place in greater society...more volunteer, mentorship, apprenticeship, etc. opportunities. More real life perspective...less artificial "socialization" based on brand names, hair styles, and the right shoes. I think many preteens and teens really would benefit from more real world experience, more real "work" experience, more getting their hands dirty and seeing what life is like for others not in their little microcosm. Perhaps that would aid in achieving some perspective on how important clothes, shoes, electronic toys, etc. really are? I think the "social" setup of schools is very artificial and not representative of the real world as a whole, kwim? (eta: and yes, I think boredom or not really feeling like one has a purpose/place in the world in middle school contributes to some of the behavior seen at that level, and into high school)
I don't disagree that many kids have positive social experiences w/ school, etc. but I think it is important to consider how many children have negative experiences with "socialization" that takes place in schools.
eta: in rereading the other thread on this topic (what were you? thread), I also think there's something to be said for having the ability, the confidence, etc. to interact with people of other ages (as well as race, religion, etc. obviously). Hanging out with a bunch of people your own age exclusively is not always the ideal form of "socialization" IMO.
ha98ed14
08-03-2009, 04:20 PM
Being exceptionally bright in school often leads to being outcasted or stigmatized in early grades. I would reckon most of the nicest, smartest people I know who went to grade school experienced this to some degree. Part of it is just not seeing the world the same as others or having very different interests than your peers or being bored.
Do you worry for T? You're posts about his embracing pink and being too bright for his classroom lead me to believe he will fit this catagory. Do you plan to intervene or take any action or does the situation not warrant that?
AngelaS
08-03-2009, 04:28 PM
Brittone expressed my views on socialization wonderfully. :) WTG. :)
I was somewhat ostracized in elementary and middle school but thankfully I had a few close friends all the way thru school that made putting up with the mean girls in my class bearable. I was a smart kid who didn't dress the best and that's why they picked on me. By high school tho, in our small school there was enough mixing between the band geeks, smart kids and jocks that pretty much everyone got along.
My school experience isn't why we chose to homeschool. We wanted a better education by making use of time that is often wasted sitting in classroom. My girls are smart and I believe in challenging them a bit to keep them interested and learning instead of having to wait for others to catch up. They also don't have to waste emotional energy worrying about the class bully, this weekend's dance or other fluffy stuff.
gordo
08-03-2009, 04:31 PM
As a middle school social worker, I can definitively say that YES kids are THAT cruel! The girls are the worst and it is horrible how they treat their friends, let alone their enemies. Even a "popular" girl can become a "reject" with one bad move. Middle school is a horrible time - the kids are trying to figure out who they are, but aren't able to do that without the pressure from all the other kids of who they should be. Yet at this time, they really pull away from their families when it really is a time that they need their families the most!
7th grade seems to be the worst of them all. Working in this setting I feel that I at least will be prepared when my daughters get there and won't be in denial about what really goes on in middle school. However, knowing all of this ahead of time just makes me a nervous wreck thinking of them going through it!
carolinamama
08-03-2009, 04:35 PM
I think middle school is basically wasteland at a lot of schools where little is learned besides social order/bullying. I also think low academic expectations between 5th and 9th grade make middle school often worthless from a learning standpoint. I did not go to school at all from 7th grade until I started high school in 9th grade. I swear the material in 9th grade was not particularly advanced from what I learned in 6th grade. It is a slightly deeper swipe at the same subjects again and again from 5th to 9th grade, besides any advanced math offerings or foreign language. My decision to stay home (technically I was marked as home schooled but my home learning was walking to the library) was sparked by a matter unrelated to school (having been sexually assaulted in the 6th grade I just plain was not up to going to school). But from a social and academic standpoint, I think I did better at home not going to school than I would have otherwise. It gave me a serious leg up on the high school reading and writing and it made me a hard protective case against any crap in high school. Also after 2 years at home I was ready to become a more social being. Being outgoing helps in school.
There has to be a way to let kid hit puberty and learn at the same time that is better than the typical American middle school.
Very interesting perspective. I think you may be on to something.
justincase
08-03-2009, 04:35 PM
Yes, kids really can be that cruel. And yes, it does start early.
I was socially ostracized at school from a very young age and I can definitely tell you it scarred me for life...
:yeahthat:
I was picked on and teased mercilessly from third grade onward. I used to get horrible stomach aches and cry and tell my mom I didn't want to go to school. I had uncool hair, uncool clothes, and was way too smart and not at all athletic. The trouble actually started when I skipped second grade and went into third with a new group of kids and was immediately marked as an outsider. I had one best friend who was as nerdy as I was. That was it, one friend. It was bad for years and years. In high school (a bunch of elementary / middle schools coming together into one big high school) I finally found friends with common interests and didn't care as much what the cool kids thought, so things got better. DH was teased, too, for his looks and brains. It breaks our hearts to think about this happening to our kids. :cry:
...and still affects me as an adult.
I feel like it makes me more tolerant, gentle, easy on people. I guess this is the paradox of it all. I was truly miserable for years. It would kill me to watch my DC's go through it. But I think I owe a lot of my better qualities to having gone through it.
Out of BB curiosity, can you ask your professor what the predictors of resilience are?
It seems to me very hard to control the school environment (short of homeschooling and even then I assume pre-teens and teens spend alot of time in public places where that can occur). Is there a way to "fireproof" your kid from this sort of thing - - or at least minimize the short-term and long-term damage?
kijip
08-03-2009, 05:05 PM
Do you worry for T? You're posts about his embracing pink and being too bright for his classroom lead me to believe he will fit this catagory. Do you plan to intervene or take any action or does the situation not warrant that?
T is an interesting case and I would say that even if I was not his mother, I think. He is very happy to be different and has a definitive "I really don't care what you think about it, it's my business and I will do it my way, thank you very much. Now let's all have some fun" attitude. I don't think it is motherly bragging to notice that this is NOT the norm for kids his age. A lot of kids would have brought his backpack home after the first day and refused to ever touch it again. My older brother immediately scorned shoes and clothes he had long wanted/desired if they were teased. While I was more like T, I was older when I was more like that particular trait and I was still susceptible to peer pressure in a way that T seems immune to. We did not teach him this and we were prepared to shed his pink stuff when he changed his mind. We assumed when he was 3 or 4 that at some point before the end of kindergarten or first grade he would reject some of his "feminine" color preferences. He has not and after defending himself pretty effectively in K, he is pretty resolute about it.
He is also pretty big and solid for his age, frankly I have wondered if he was scrawny if he would have been bullied more. He hates violence (this is a child who dislikes superheros for being mean, LOL) and never hit/attacked anyone at school but there were times he was hit or saw kids being hit where he would defend himself or others verbally or even push back (and then apparently walk away). He also loves his friends and is, I think for a 6 year old, a pretty good friend though he like any child can be self centered. It is a little bit of a contradiction. One the one hand, he is very sensitive to things he sees as unjust/mean and will recall a child being hit or the teacher making a sarcastic remark to a girl *forever* but on the other, he doesn't noticabley care if people say things to him- to him it falls on his ears as obviously untrue information as though he was being told the sky was purple. He did become more quiet at school than he is at home, but he did not race to conform at school either. I dunno. I think bullies are far more likely to torment kids that react to the tormenting. If they don't get a response, they move on.
And honestly, I think it helps that we live in a liberal area were the "girls" color thing is not so vigorously seen as different or bad and in some cases is seen as "cool" rather than odd. In the small town my husband was raised in, my husband thinks T would have had kids trying to beat him up and parents supporting it and the school making no pink a rule (I don't know, I'm not from there!) And it's 2009 and not 1980 or 1950, which helps him. Gap sells pink shirts for boys for example. He gets comments but they are words, not fists or harassment. A number of parents have told me that their child considers T their friend or (exact quote) "picked T out as some one he wants to be friends with".
I am mostly concerned about him learning to be a hard worker and about him becoming bored. I also am more concerned about how teachers in a mainstream class would treat him. Socially, I think that he will be able to find a set of friends in most settings. I don't think he cares enough about other people's opinion of him to be the most popular or the the least popular kid. If I could bottle and sell that sort of self confidence, LOL. I hope he keeps those values and that approach because I think it will serve him well.
He got in off the wait-list (it's by area/distance and we live far from it) for our first choice school for him and he will be in a contained accelerated classroom so I am just going to hope for the best. We have the option of homeschooling him now or sending him cross town to an even more accelerated option (which I think is too far for his age now) later on.
ha98ed14
08-03-2009, 05:07 PM
Out of BB curiosity, can you ask your professor what the predictors of resilience are?
It seems to me very hard to control the school environment (short of homeschooling and even then I assume pre-teens and teens spend alot of time in public places where that can occur). Is there a way to "fireproof" your kid from this sort of thing - - or at least minimize the short-term and long-term damage?
HOW funny that you would ask this. I *JUST* emailed her the exact same question! I will report back the answer.
AnnieW625
08-03-2009, 05:11 PM
Jr. High and high school are very creul places, but yet there are ways to make yourself feel at home you just have to go to great distances to make it work for you. I did that and even though I was never popular I made the best out of it. I often think I was a cross between Josie from Never Been Kissed and Samantha from 16 Candles.
Back in the early 90s I was akward as all get out, I had horrible acne, very thick blond hair that was wavy, but not curly, and for the life of me didn't understand why I couldn't have a spiral perm like everyone else my age or why just a dab of Clearasil wouldn't make my zits go away. I also convinced myself that I would never be comfortable at a school dance so I never went. I came close a few times my senior year but chickened out. I wish my parents would've dropped me off anyways.I think would've had more fun on that level had I actually made it to one. Thankfully a local coffee shop opened downtown so I went there a few times (I grew up in a small city outside of Sacramento with very little to do unless you had a license and wanted to go drink with the rich farmers' kids on the weekends). I will say thank goodness I always did have some sort of fashion sense so I was never the butt of anyone's jokes regarding what I wore. I was a lot like the girl who Cher helps in Clueless (forgetting character's name).
I don't know what I want for my daughter, but DH and I are strongly leaning towards Catholic school because we don't like the way public schools in our area and California are headed. I also love the idea of uniforms and the small school feel as that is what it was like for me when I was growing up. High schools in my area have upwards of 4400 students and while that scares me maybe it's big enough that there won't just be one clique of kids:) No matter what I would like my daughter to be involved in some sort volunteer work.
StantonHyde
08-03-2009, 05:13 PM
There are some excellent books on raising Resiliant children--Goldberg or Goldstein is the author. I have those and read them.
I was fine in elementary school because I was in advanced classes and it was cool to be smart. I switched schools (we moved from West Virginia to Idaho) in 7th grade. Middle school was awful for all the reasons mentioned. In my high school, I was considered "male" (not lesbian, not even female) because I was smart, good at math etc. It was ridiculous. I also had an emotionally abusive father so that didn't help much. And then there were weird exclusion dynamics that got set up by virture of which religion you belonged to.
My recipe for DS is to put him in an education setting where he is challenged and supported--small class size and a balance of religions and some moderation of socioeconomic status. Right now, that is private school for us. DD might go to the public gifted and talented or private. The private schools here all go from 1-8. That is a big thing right there. Why yank kids out of where people know them and they know their peer group and stick them in another school at such a vulnerable time? If they can go 1-8 in the same place, I think they do better.
All the things that got me ostracized in middle/high school have made me into a well educated, traveled, professional, open minded person. I wouldn't trade that.
niccig
08-03-2009, 05:22 PM
I think I was lucky going through school. I was smart, Valedictorian of my highschool, but I didn't get teased for being smart. Australia doesn't do middle school, grade8-12 is high school. We also have uniforms for public school. There was never any teasing for clothes.
I didn't get teased, but my younger sister did and a good friend did as well. I don't know why I didn't. I know in the last 2 years of highschool I didn't care about the people that did the teasing. And I think they knew that. One boy teased my sister in front of me, and I verbally ripped into him. My good friend at highschool told me that she changed her hair to be accepted through 8-10 grade, and then in 11 and 12 she joined our group and there was always one of us in her class that she could sit with - safety in numbers I suppose.
I am woried about DS. I know kids can be cruel and I don't want him to be on the receiving end or the one giving it out either. I want him to be a good friend and to have good friends. We choose an elementary that is small and has mixed age classes. It's also diverse and tolerant and accepting. On our tour, a boy in grade 5 was wearing a pink and brown hoody. I immediately thought of Toby and DS's friend at preschool who got teased for having something pink. Hopefully, that doesn't happen at this school.
I think we're going to work with DS to be as strong and as confident as he can be, and help him navigate social interactions.
ETA. I should add that it seems the prime age for teasing is middle school/junior high. In Australia, high school is grade 8-12 and when I went in grade 8, my sister was in grade 10. I got on the school bus and sat at the front. My older sister came and got me as she had asked her friends to save 2 seats, one for me and one for her. Her friends were in grade 12. So, I was the little kid sitting in the back seat with all the seniors. My sister would also look in on me when I was in the playground - now I think she was checking I was OK. When my younger sister came to the school, she had me in grade 9 and older sis. in grade 11. Teasing didn't happen until we swapped to a new school for grade 11 and 12. I do think my older sister's presence may have helped us in grade 8-10. She wasn't the most popular person, but she was well liked. This school also had multi-age home rooms. Each homeroom had 2-3 kids from each year level. I had no qualms about going up to one of the seniors from my homeroom when out on the playground.
pinkmomagain
08-03-2009, 05:38 PM
From what I've heard, middle school is the most socially difficult and in HS you kind of "find your place" -- although I'm sure it's not true for everyone. I have a middle schooler and from what I witness, I think alot of the cruel behavior (particularly among girls) is due to the changes they are going thru (puberty) and feeling very insecure about themselves (even if they put on a very tough, confident facade). It is true that looks, clothes and money (and athletics) greatly determine popularity-- at least in dd's school. From my experience, a big part of helping girls navigate through this time successfully is having them get very involved in activities (sports, music, art.....whatever they are interested in and seem to have a talent for)...as it keeps them focused, builds self-esteem, helps them socially get involved with kids of similar interests, etc.
Yes, the cruel behavior can start very early. I don't agree with the idea that a child can get labeled in an early grade and they are destined to carry it throughout HS. I've seen kids reinvent themselves, improve socially, etc.
salsah
08-03-2009, 07:55 PM
I think this is one of those times you really want your child to be average. Not a social reject, not popular in that they become the people who reject others - kwim?
I read somewhere that the key to raising a socially well-adjusted child is to teach her to be a good friend. I think that is great advice.
:yeahthat: and self confidence. Not overly confident though -- the type that think that they are better than every one else.
MmeSunny
08-03-2009, 08:34 PM
I think middle school is basically wasteland at a lot of schools where little is learned besides social order/bullying. I also think low academic expectations between 5th and 9th grade make middle school often worthless from a learning standpoint. It is a slightly deeper swipe at the same subjects again and again from 5th to 9th grade, besides any advanced math offerings or foreign language. There has to be a way to let kid hit puberty and learn at the same time that is better than the typical American middle school.
Well thanks. That was just the boost this middle school teacher needed to hear as I go back to school tomorrow after working UNPAID today due to teacher furloughs.
Middle school expectations are high in many places. The fact of the matter is child development. Pre-adolescents are NOT focused on learning. Their biological development is in full swing. Their needs are purely social based--which is why they push away family and hold only to the "social group". Part of forming that group is excluding others. It's completely developmental appropriate why kids are crazy to deal with from ages 11-15.
That's not to say that they should be allowed to bully. However, while some of the most difficult, the middle school years are also the most pivotal. There is a lot of learning that takes place during this time that may not show itself simply because that's not what the kids are knowingly focused. But they will refer to it as they enter high school and beyond. It is not a wasteland. Middle schoolers are very diverse and vary between child and mini-adult. They are particularily vulnerable to outside influence--both positive and negative. Before writing off the middle school learning experience, one needs to reflect on what is developmentally appropriate at that time.
Corie
08-03-2009, 09:27 PM
My junior high school years were the most miserable of my entire life.
I'm pretty sure that I came home and cried every single day while my mom
just held me.
I was very smart and I was in the gifted program. I did have an awesome
wardrobe from Esprit and Benetton though. :) And a cute little haircut.
Also, I was a good girl. Never got a detention. Never got in trouble.
The teachers loved me and I loved most of my teachers.
(It didn't help when my favorite math teacher announced to the class that
I had just earned the first A+ on my report card. I was the first A+ he had
ever given. Why would he announce this info. to the entire class?)
And last, I didn't kiss boys or put out. The popular crew in our junior high
pretty frisky with their boyfriends. Heck, I didn't kiss a boy until I was
sixteen years old.
My DH doesn't really understand my jr. high drama. He never experienced
anything like it growing up. He gets frustrated because my
past completely affects how I act now. He keeps telling me to let it go.
Also, my past affects how I handle situations with my DD and her friends.
maestramommy
08-03-2009, 10:08 PM
I don't know about lasting through HS, but yes, I've heard that rejection can start actually as early as kindergarten. It depends on whether there's a kid that is just "mean" in the class that year. When I was enrolling Dora in preschool for next year, the director was telling me about social stuff, and that there was a girl in the 3yo class this year that was quite mean. Befriending someone one day, then telling them they weren't her friend the next. She caused quite a bit of grief before they were able to rein her in and do whatever they did to get the situation under control.
maestramommy
08-03-2009, 10:14 PM
Well thanks. That was just the boost this middle school teacher needed to hear as I go back to school tomorrow after working UNPAID today due to teacher furloughs.
Middle school expectations are high in many places. The fact of the matter is child development. Pre-adolescents are NOT focused on learning. Their biological development is in full swing. Their needs are purely social based--which is why they push away family and hold only to the "social group". Part of forming that group is excluding others. It's completely developmental appropriate why kids are crazy to deal with from ages 11-15.
That's not to say that they should be allowed to bully. However, while some of the most difficult, the middle school years are also the most pivotal. There is a lot of learning that takes place during this time that may not show itself simply because that's not what the kids are knowingly focused. But they will refer to it as they enter high school and beyond. It is not a wasteland. Middle schoolers are very diverse and vary between child and mini-adult. They are particularily vulnerable to outside influence--both positive and negative. Before writing off the middle school learning experience, one needs to reflect on what is developmentally appropriate at that time.
When I was student teaching and after I got my job teaching grades 4-12, middle school was my favorite. The kids are at the perfect age for teaching. They are just old enough to understand just about everything, and young enough not to be jaded yet. My mentor, who taught middle school, told me that if you can get the kids on your track, they will do anything for you. And that is what I found when I was working. The middle school kids were the most excited about learning new things, and a lot easier to move as a large group.
Some may say I'm biased because I was teaching in a private girls school. But I student taught at a regular public school district, and THAT was what made me want to teach middle school.
ha98ed14
08-03-2009, 11:09 PM
Well thanks. That was just the boost this middle school teacher needed to hear as I go back to school tomorrow after working UNPAID today due to teacher furloughs.
Middle school expectations are high in many places. The fact of the matter is child development. Pre-adolescents are NOT focused on learning. Their biological development is in full swing. Their needs are purely social based--which is why they push away family and hold only to the "social group". Part of forming that group is excluding others. It's completely developmental appropriate why kids are crazy to deal with from ages 11-15.
That's not to say that they should be allowed to bully. However, while some of the most difficult, the middle school years are also the most pivotal. There is a lot of learning that takes place during this time that may not show itself simply because that's not what the kids are knowingly focused. But they will refer to it as they enter high school and beyond. It is not a wasteland. Middle schoolers are very diverse and vary between child and mini-adult. They are particularily vulnerable to outside influence--both positive and negative. Before writing off the middle school learning experience, one needs to reflect on what is developmentally appropriate at that time.
I just wanted to say thank you for this perspective. I am getting my teaching credential for secondary math edu, but my focus area (and all my methods classes) are geared for 7-9 instruction. So I will try to be, like you, a force for good in the lives of middle schoolers.
Naranjadia
08-03-2009, 11:25 PM
I don't know about lasting through HS, but yes, I've heard that rejection can start actually as early as kindergarten.
In my experience, it definitely started in kindergarten. I was one of a handful of kids who got ostracized/picked on from kindergarten on - I had physical defects, some of the other kids were simply poor, one was always getting in trouble with the teacher and seemed slow, one was, in retrospect, developmentally disabled, etc.
I actually found jr. high and high school to be freeing. They were so much bigger that there was less of everybody paying attention to everybody else's business. You kind of hung out in your group(s) and didn't have to reckon with what everyone else thought.
Maybe it's also that in contrast to the cruelty I experienced throughout grade school, the concerns about acceptance in secondary school seemed so minor.
sarahsthreads
08-04-2009, 12:22 AM
I was picked on and teased mercilessly from third grade onward. I used to get horrible stomach aches and cry and tell my mom I didn't want to go to school. I had uncool hair, uncool clothes, and was way too smart and not at all athletic. The trouble actually started when I skipped second grade and went into third with a new group of kids and was immediately marked as an outsider. I had one best friend who was as nerdy as I was. That was it, one friend. It was bad for years and years. In high school (a bunch of elementary / middle schools coming together into one big high school) I finally found friends with common interests and didn't care as much what the cool kids thought, so things got better. DH was teased, too, for his looks and brains. It breaks our hearts to think about this happening to our kids. :cry:
I feel like it makes me more tolerant, gentle, easy on people. I guess this is the paradox of it all. I was truly miserable for years. It would kill me to watch my DC's go through it. But I think I owe a lot of my better qualities to having gone through it.
I had almost exactly the same experience (including the skipping second grade part).
I worry about DD1 because she is very emotional about things - I see myself and my inability to not react to teasing in her behavior with peers already. As incredibly geeky as this is going to sound...I used to wish I was a Vulcan when I was in middle school. Because they had no emotions. (And I can't believe I just admitted that to the whole internet. I'm pretty sure I threw out that seventh grade diary so nobody would ever find out... :bag: )
What gives me hope is that DD1 is already much better at making friends than I ever was - I was socially awkward from the day I was born, I think, and she's not - so far. Plus she has way better hair than I did as a kid. Maybe those things will make up for being smart and having no fashion sense! ;)
Sarah :)
kijip
08-04-2009, 12:44 AM
My opinion is my opinion, certainly not fact. Wasteland is a harsh word but middle school is a harsh world for a lot of kids. I have nothing but respect for adults who become middle school teachers, but that does not mean I need to agree with the structure of a lot of middle schools and the bullying and social pressure that is created in that environment. There are certainly exceptions to low quality schools and ineffective formats. Some places likely have great middle schools. I hope for the sake of children everywhere things are improving and continue to improve.
But I maintain that within the same district, at the time I was in high school the 9th grade curriculum was not significantly harder than the 5th and 6th grades. Being able to walk out at the beginning of 7th grade and into 9th grade 2 years later without falling behind academically says more about the school system to me than it did about me.
In my view, we have created this age/grade social structure with a hyper consumer focus, not nature. I think being only with other 11, 12 and 13 year olds encourages certain behaviors to flourish. And while there are some great schools and teachers, many American middle schools are places where kids aren't just unhappy, they are clinically depressed and developing self destructive behaviors due to peer and other pressure. I just don't think the average middle school is the ideal place for the average early adolescent child to learn and grow. There has to be something better.
egoldber
08-04-2009, 08:13 AM
But I maintain that within the same district, at the time I was in high school the 9th grade curriculum was not significantly harder than the 5th and 6th grades. Being able to walk out at the beginning of 7th grade and into 9th grade 2 years later without falling behind academically says more about the school system to me than it did about me.
In my view, we have created this age/grade social structure with a hyper consumer focus, not nature. I think being only with other 11, 12 and 13 year olds encourages certain behaviors to flourish. And while there are some great schools and teachers, many American middle schools are places where kids aren't just unhappy, they are clinically depressed and developing self destructive behaviors due to peer and other pressure. I just don't think the average middle school is the ideal place for the average early adolescent child to learn and grow. There has to be something better.
I completely agree. I don't think it has to do with the teachers as it does with simply the structure of putting 500-1000 12 to 14 year olds in one building with relatively little emotional and social guidance. Add in healthy doses of parental and peer pressure, and you have a recipe for dysfunction.
And I agree that I learned virtually nothing new from 5th to 10th grades. It was wretched. I always thought it was because I went to school in a crappy district (urban, poor) but we are now in a suburban, wealthy district and I see many of the same issues.
pinkmomagain
08-04-2009, 09:29 AM
Being able to walk out at the beginning of 7th grade and into 9th grade 2 years later without falling behind academically says more about the school system to me than it did about me.
I think it says more about YOUR school system. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but given the fact that you didn't even attend the MS, you have a very unusual perspective.
My dd is currently attending a Blue Ribbon public middle school. I am more pleased with the administration,support staff and teachers in her middle school than her six years of elementary. She certainly is learning...is on the honors track, will be taking a science state regents this year (8th grade - her last year in MS). The administration does what it can in terms of bullying (antibullying club, best buddies club, zero tolerance for bullying, etc)....but there is still going to be social jockeying, mean girls, etc. We have an excellent social worker who many of the students use (including dd) when issues arise.
I guess I'm just surprised to hear the negativity regarding MS. Yes it's a tough age to parent, teach, and live through, I just don't see MS as some horrible institution that needs to be obliterated from the public school system. I would hate to leave the many moms of young ones on this board with such a terrible impression of what's to come.
egoldber
08-04-2009, 09:59 AM
15% of the school population, are defined in middle school by their good looks, well dressed (wearing A&F and Hollister) and money (or the stuff money buys; ipods, etc.) Being athletic helps too. Then there are the kids who are actively or passively rejected (4%) depending on if peers ridicule them or just don't include them.
Well, I think part of the key here is the distributions. 15% of kids are popular and 4% are ostracized. The majority of kids are in neither group. If you're not in that 4%, your MS experience is probably OK. Filled with angst and occasional ickiness, but overall OK. But if you're in that 4%, it can be a living hell.
And of course the dynamics for each school are different. Things that might make you popular in one school may make you ostracized in another.
MamaKath
08-04-2009, 11:09 AM
Well, I think part of the key here is the distributions. 15% of kids are popular and 4% are ostracized. The majority of kids are in neither group. If you're not in that 4%, your MS experience is probably OK. Filled with angst and occasional ickiness, but overall OK. But if you're in that 4%, it can be a living hell.
I was in the 4%. It certainly was a living hell. I was painfully tortured by my peers. I would homeschool my kids if I even saw some of that starting (especially for ds who has already had problems). I had planned to homeschool them entirely, but have not been able to because of dh's injury. We have even looked into having another homeschooling family teach our kids if it were needed at some point.
I disagree with when it starts though. As a kindergarten/1st grade teacher, I see kids grouping that young. While it is not as intense, I think it is the start already of those social groupings. There is already the friendships from pre-k coming in, some of which are strongly cultivated by parents. There are already the kids who just don't fit and start becoming targets. There are already the popular kids. It is just more flexible, partly because you are still in "we are all friends" mode. By the time they start 2nd grade they are stronger in their social lines, and by 3rd those seem to solidify by their academic levels and interests also.
Now if you read this far, I think part of the reason it decreases around highschool (though I don't think it ever quite ends) is because you no longer have such strict groupings of age. There is a flexibilty that comes in hs that allows people to start hanging out with other people they get along with. It is not so forced by the social structure of the institution. If anything there is an acceptance of ability and interest from the institution that allows kids to be themselves.
Interesting topic!
sarahsthreads
08-04-2009, 11:25 AM
Now if you read this far, I think part of the reason it decreases around highschool (though I don't think it ever quite ends) is because you no longer have such strict groupings of age. There is a flexibilty that comes in hs that allows people to start hanging out with other people they get along with. It is not so forced by the social structure of the institution. If anything there is an acceptance of ability and interest from the institution that allows kids to be themselves.
And this right here is one of the reasons that I am absolutely praying that when we get the letter regarding DD1's kindergarten placement (sometime this week, the suspense is killing me!) it says she got into multi-age. K/1 for two years, followed by 2/3 for two years, followed by 4/5/6 all in the same classroom for three years. Will it completely stop the teasing? Probably not - I don't think anything will. There won't quite be the freedom of hanging out with just anyone like you can in high school, but I think the diverse ages will help a lot.
Sarah :)
kijip
08-04-2009, 12:34 PM
I think it says more about YOUR school system. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but given the fact that you didn't even attend the MS, you have a very unusual perspective.
Just to clarify, I went to all of 6th grade and the first part of 7th. I left because it was not important to be there for me (socially or academically). After dealing with what I had at age 11, school was just not something that was important. It was the honors track of a well-thought of school in our district, the same district that I live in now. While I don't think it is bad EVERYWHERE, it is certainly not great everywhere. I was not in the 4%, I had friends and bullies left me alone.
AnnieW625
08-04-2009, 12:37 PM
Well, I think part of the key here is the distributions. 15% of kids are popular and 4% are ostracized. The majority of kids are in neither group. If you're not in that 4%, your MS experience is probably OK. Filled with angst and occasional ickiness, but overall OK. But if you're in that 4%, it can be a living hell.
And of course the dynamics for each school are different. Things that might make you popular in one school may make you ostracized in another.
I honestly think this is true too. We had two jr. highs in our city of 40K people. One was better thought of than the other and that was the one I went to. We were one block from the other school's boundry lines and school 2 was just as far as school 1 from my house. I easily could've told my mom I wanted to go to school 2 and gotten in, but since school 1 was the popular school, had the better band, and thought to be the better one in town I went there. I look at things now and 90% of the people I hung out with in high school went to school 2 so I think school 2 would've been a better fit for me, but hey that's life and when you get lemons you make lemonade:)
bubbaray
08-04-2009, 12:43 PM
This just scares the cr@ppola out of me. I sooooooo want my girls to have fun at school, not it be a cause of anxiety.
I'm hoping that their natural inclination towards being "Sporty Spice" will help. I'm also considering some martial arts for DD#1 who tends to be more shy (though neither of her daycares think so -- they think they are both well-adjusted, confident children).
Neither really has any "friends" and we have never had a playdate. But, they do go to daycare FT and have fun there. I'm hoping that will continue. I'm also hopeful that enrolling them in French Immersion school will be helpful because its not a "neighborhood" school, but a "choice school", so kids don't come in with their neighborhood friends, KWIM?
*I* didn't have totally horrible experiences in school, mainly because I blended in with a variety of groups -- jocks, preps, goths, brains. DH had some teasing in the later elementary grades (equivalent to MS, which d/n exist here), but it was related to his ethnicity (German), not his jock status.
Sillygirl
08-04-2009, 12:56 PM
I taught middle school for a year before medical school. I taught at a wealthy all-girls Catholic school and had a wonderful eighth grade science class of the gifted students. As great as those girls were, I kind of think middle schoolers should go work on a farm for a year or two. Get used to their new bodies, have lots of fresh food available, everyone's dirty and your value is based on how hard you can work. A little simplistic, perhaps, but that was what I thought after that year of teaching.
Corie
08-04-2009, 01:12 PM
I taught middle school for 3 years and I hated it.
I had to quit. Otherwise, I would have never had my own children.
Teaching middle school is fabulous birth control.
ehmom
08-04-2009, 01:17 PM
i don't have time to read every post, but i just wanted to add my 2 cents. i was in the "uncool" group all through school. honestly, as hard as it was then, i think it isn't necessarily such a bad thing. of course, back then, we didn't have cyber-bullying and all of that stuff. being "uncool" is a great teachable moment for parents. i learned to value other things, and i grew in compassion toward other people who may be on the outskirts for whatever reason. in randy pausch's "last lecture " book, he talks about the importance of being earnest and not hip. i hope my kids can learn to be themselves and be sincere. so much more important for long term success and happiness in life. jmho, of course :)
MontrealMum
08-04-2009, 01:32 PM
I guess I have a different perspective on this. I enjoyed middle school (jr. high - grades 7-8) as much as that period in a child's life can be enjoyable, and I enjoyed highschool. This is mostly because of the unique school situation I was in (see other thread) a school entirely of geeks!
I did, however, experience bullying: at church, in my neighborhood, and at the exclusive private school I'd attended prior to enter my 7-12 GATE school. Bullying can happen anywhere - getting rid of middle school isn't some sort of magic bullet. One of the best things in my life was starting Jr. High at an acknowledged, prestigious, academically rigorous school. It gave me the confidence to look at those nasty bullying kids and see them for what they really were - and to not care what they, or other people thought of me. My school was a safe haven, and greatly bolstered my confidence. Obviously, not every school is like that. But in my world it would have been nice if Sunday School and Youth Group had been :(
egoldber
08-04-2009, 01:36 PM
a school entirely of geeks
Be still my heart! :ROTFLMAO:
There is a science and technology magnet here. It is HIGHLY competitive to get into. More than one parent has told me this school changed their kid's life. They went from being bullied and ridiculed to being "normal" and having friends and a social life.
Sounds about right to me, as well. I was the weird "smart" kid in school, and by 2-3 grade was having problems because of it. My brothers had it easier because "they're boys. They're supposed to be smart." By middle school life sucked. I was lucky in that in 8th grade we merged middle schools so I got a whole new group of people to be with. Life was better for a while after that. But I also learned that playing the "blonde" makes life easier. (I never dropped my grades, but I never raised my hand either. Just looked like I didn't understand the world was turning.) By high school I was on the outskirts of the cool kids, and completely happy to be there. Not completely rejected, but not really noticed, either. Then I went to one of those "schools for geeks" to finish up high school. I'm sure people there thought I was an airhead until grades came out.... But, I was "home" there more than anywhere before.
MontrealMum
08-04-2009, 01:55 PM
Be still my heart! :ROTFLMAO:
There is a science and technology magnet here. It is HIGHLY competitive to get into. More than one parent has told me this school changed their kid's life. They went from being bullied and ridiculed to being "normal" and having friends and a social life.
I know my experience is not the norm, but I wanted to share it because I think these "special" schools, whether Science and Tech, Arts, or the like can be an important key to solving the bully problem for some kids. I LOVED hs. And like you say, it was when I went from being on the outside of everything to being "normal". My parents helped a lot too - supportive parents are key - but if I had not had that refuge of school, I would not be a very well-adjusted adult, I don't think.
khalloc
08-04-2009, 02:08 PM
I really don't understand the whole homeschool movement. I never heard of anyone getting homeschooled until I became a parent and looked on boards like this. I'm not saying this to be bashed either, so please go lightly! I understand that you can socialize your children without having them be in a regular school. But just from growing up I think I would have killed my parents if they had homeschooled me. I just feel like I would have missed alot of experiences (mainly fun, social ones).
OTOH, I'm sure homeschooling teaches alot. You can really make sure they are learning. But I wouldnt have wanted to be homeschooled.
I went to a small Catholic grade school from K-6 just outside of Boston, then went to Boston Latin School which is a public high school, but you must take a test to get accepted. I think I got a great education at both places. I wasn't part of the super-popular kids. I wasn't a nerd. I was I guess in a group of normal kids that got along with everyone.
I went to a science magnet jr. high and science+arts magnet hs. Our HS (more so than jr. high) was composed almost entirely of misfits--too smart, too artsy, too weird, etc. I didn't fully realize at the time how atypical it was but knew it was a great school environment. The structure of the school fostered respect from the various concentrations. And most of the people who were there had experienced horrible school settings before like the PPs.
momof2girls
08-04-2009, 02:31 PM
I haven't read all the pps on this so forgive me if someone else already responded like this:
I am also scared of what school will bring for my DDs. DD#1 is especially self-conscious of social situations and her friends. She has many friends, it's just that she is paranoid of ever being left out (which of course will happen from time to time if you have 5 "best friends"). The only way I figured I could combat whatever social issues may develop inthe coming years is to try to hang out with her friends' moms now so that we develop open communication with each other and therefore can work on any friendship issues that may one day occur with the kids. Also, I encourage her to make friends with all sorts of kids that maybe she never considered befriending (the quiet ones, even boys). It has worked out so far. My only concern is what to do about the bullies that she has encountered last year in Kindergarten. There were 2 out of the 20 kids in class.
MelissaTC
08-04-2009, 02:35 PM
I disagree with when it starts though. As a kindergarten/1st grade teacher, I see kids grouping that young. While it is not as intense, I think it is the start already of those social groupings. There is already the friendships from pre-k coming in, some of which are strongly cultivated by parents. There are already the kids who just don't fit and start becoming targets. There are already the popular kids. It is just more flexible, partly because you are still in "we are all friends" mode. By the time they start 2nd grade they are stronger in their social lines, and by 3rd those seem to solidify by their academic levels and interests also.
I have noticed this myself. DS is the type of kid that gets along with everyone and thinks everyone is his friend. K was like that; first grade was not. I am just happy that he was placed in a class with boys that he knew from various places (camp,sports,church, etc..) and they made their own little circle. There were the same kids at the birthday parties, playdates, etc... It gave me some comfort knowing that as the other kids were pairing off into their own groups (some of it largely cultivated by their parents, for sure!), M was able to be a part of his own circle with good kids and whose parents I actually like. Almost all were new to the school and they all banded together. Second grade does worry me a bit. I wonder how they are going to mix everyone up again. :(
egoldber
08-04-2009, 02:37 PM
I wasn't part of the super-popular kids. I wasn't a nerd. I was I guess in a group of normal kids that got along with everyone.
Sounds like you were at a school that was a good fit for you. Not everyone is that fortunate.
Homeschooling is on the rise.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-05-28-homeschooling-report_N.htm
And another interesting little article I ran across recently:
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2009/08/03/090803ta_talk_mead
If your kid is happy and having their needs being met in school, that's great. But many kids are not happy and are not having their needs met in schools, and homeschooling is an increasingly popular option for many families.
maestramommy
08-04-2009, 02:39 PM
I taught middle school for a year before medical school. I taught at a wealthy all-girls Catholic school and had a wonderful eighth grade science class of the gifted students. As great as those girls were, I kind of think middle schoolers should go work on a farm for a year or two. Get used to their new bodies, have lots of fresh food available, everyone's dirty and your value is based on how hard you can work. A little simplistic, perhaps, but that was what I thought after that year of teaching.
And you're probably on the right track too!:) One of the things I learned about adolescents is that they are by nature, self-centered. Not surprising, with so many changes happening to them. I think a program and work that gets their focus off themselves for a while is very effective. Also I think this age is pretty critical when it comes to learning to work hard and being proud of the result of your efforts. There aren't a lot of things that make a kid feel great than knowing he/she "has the stuff."
mamicka
08-04-2009, 02:49 PM
I haven't had a chance to read all the responses, but most of the beginning ones.
From my experience, yes - kids can be that cruel & it does start really early. Honestly, I think that the parents can be blamed for most of this. I think that in young children, this rejection of other kids can come quite naturally as a way of dealing with fear, the unknown, "survival" in a sense. It's the job of the parents (& caregivers, but mostly parents) to make sure that these behaviors are not allowed & to have conversations (age-appropriate) with the children about why it isn't acceptable. Too often, IMO, the behavior being unacceptable is simply given lip service but actual teaching/discipline about it is lacking. I haven't seen this rejection/bullying tied to anything concrete (clothing, intelligence, etc), although at first it may seem to be. It seems to be more tied to home life IMO. Kids who have a healthy homelife & good relationships with their parents are much less likely to feel the need to act out in a bullying manner. In young kids, I see a lot of bullying kids belonging to parents who are... quite judgemental & cliquey themselves.
I could post a lot more about this but don't have the time at the moment.
brittone2
08-04-2009, 02:51 PM
I really don't understand the whole homeschool movement. I never heard of anyone getting homeschooled until I became a parent and looked on boards like this. I'm not saying this to be bashed either, so please go lightly! I understand that you can socialize your children without having them be in a regular school. But just from growing up I think I would have killed my parents if they had homeschooled me. I just feel like I would have missed alot of experiences (mainly fun, social ones).
OTOH, I'm sure homeschooling teaches alot. You can really make sure they are learning. But I wouldnt have wanted to be homeschooled.
I went to a small Catholic grade school from K-6 just outside of Boston, then went to Boston Latin School which is a public high school, but you must take a test to get accepted. I think I got a great education at both places. I wasn't part of the super-popular kids. I wasn't a nerd. I was I guess in a group of normal kids that got along with everyone.
As a PP said, homeschooling is on the rise. It is also becoming more diverse. Many minority groups are choosing to homeschool their children because they feel the public schools are not serving their children wel, for example. Some parents have opted to HS their children as part of the fallout from policies like No Child Left Behind.
Honestly it isn't even possible to track the number of HSers as in some states they do not even need to register with the state. So reported numbers may be on the low side. THe internet has made this group more visible, but HSing is also absolutely on the upswing.
There is a huge conservative Christian HS movement. However, as I mentioned above...really, it is growing across a variety of groups and there are lots of secular HSers today.
THere are now lots of creative HSing approaches like co-op groups (where parents run different classes/enrichment/etc. opportunities based on their area of expertise. So some kids may attend a 1-2x a week writing course taught by a published writer, or a weekly biology/dissection class taught by a mom or dad with a biology background). There are lots of opportunities like that available today that were not as widely available several years back.
eta: in my area there are frequent park days, etc. for HSers...field trips, just general hanging out/social time, classes/co-op classes, etc.
eta: HSing on the rise among African Americans; HSing in general growing by 10% per year
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14453544
OK, I have a wierd perspective on the non-bullied child. In elementary school, my mother - - as a result of awful bullying experiences in her own childhood - - really pressured me to befriend children experiencing social rejection. To be blunt, she forced me to be friends with them, would invite them over our house, would not let me have parties unless they were invited, etc. Not only kindness, but "inner circle" friendship, to kids that have been picked on was the mantra of my childhood.
So, I experienced six years of this and this was my conclusion in fifth or sixth grade: About half of the times kids were in fact bullied because they were shy, smart, poor, disabled whatever. They were great kids. The other half of the time something was wrong. I mean that. About half of the kids I befriended had very significant and pervasive social issues or some deep-rooted family problems. I remember feeling kind of overwhelmed in later elementary school once I realized this was the deal with a significant share of the kids my mom had forced me to be friends with. I wasn't really equipped to deal with it and some of those kids ended up doing some nasty things to me - - they were troubled kids.
mamicka
08-04-2009, 03:05 PM
I really don't understand the whole homeschool movement. I never heard of anyone getting homeschooled until I became a parent and looked on boards like this. I'm not saying this to be bashed either, so please go lightly! I understand that you can socialize your children without having them be in a regular school. But just from growing up I think I would have killed my parents if they had homeschooled me. I just feel like I would have missed alot of experiences (mainly fun, social ones).
Please don't take this as a flame, because it's not. I suggest that you leasn more about homeschooling before you assume anything about it. If you don't understand it, make an effort to learn about it.
Homeschooling is not for everyone - kids or parents. People homeschool for many different reasons. Maybe homeschooling wouldn't have been the best for you or your parents, but don't assume that it is in any way sub-par to institutionalized school. I guarantee you that my kids will have way more social opportunities while homeschooling than they would ever get attending our public school.
maestramommy
08-04-2009, 03:06 PM
Middle school WAS hard for me. I wasn't developing the way some girls were, and was teased a lot, by the popular boys. We were all in the same classes together (top track), with assigned seating, so it wasn't like I could escape them. I thought it was almost funny that one of the worst teasers ended up at the same college, found out about me, and invited me to join his bible study group. Obviously he had forgotten what happened, and I know he was a different person, so I didn't hold a grudge. But it was almost amusing how people change.
With all that said, am I strange for refusing to worry about all of this in advance? I mean, I know that children can be cruel. As a teacher in a girls school we were always having seminars with guest speakers about social aggression. Michael Thompson came to our school every year for a while to talk about it. But I just don't see any point in worrying and trying to order my children's future in hopes of avoiding a potential situation. I'd like to teach my kids how to be kind, thoughtful, and strong. Beyond that I guess I don't see any point in being afraid of something that hasn't happened, that may not happen.
fivi2
08-04-2009, 03:11 PM
Personally, I think there is a big difference between not allowing your child to bully or tease others and forcing them to be "friends" with everyone (as pp's mother did).
I am not, nor do I wish to be, friends with everyone I meet. There are people I just don't mesh with, and people I outright dislike, for whatever reason. I am not mean to them, I don't tease them, but I certainly don't invite them into my life. I don't think my children should be forced the be friends with everyone.
Yes, I will devastated if my children are the ones left out, but I don't think that means we should try to force children to go against human nature. And, I do think it is human nature to hang around people you like and to avoid people you don't like.
Again, I do not condone bullying or teasing. I will probably force my children to do whole class birthday parties and valentines. But I am not going to tell them they have to be friends with someone they have nothing in common with. I hope they don't make those judgments based on appearance or clothes or other superficial reasons, but I am not sure how to make that happen....
khalloc
08-04-2009, 03:12 PM
I guess I understand homeschooling if your child is having a difficult time at school, being picked on, etc... I completely understand that. I would be heartbroken if my kids had a tough time at school. BUT it seems like alot of people decide to homeschool before their kids even start going to school, in which case they probably arent doing it because their kids arent fitting in, kwim? Maybe they are doing it for a better education if the local schools stink? I dont know.
I guess I just can't picture how homeschooling helps a kid socially who isn't having social issues at school. I would imagine that if you are homeschooled you might not have many friends who arent homeschooled because you wouldnt be in school with them all day, knowing whats happening, etc...It seems like the homeschooled kid would get left out as their friends went on to school and hung out with other classmates.
I also couldnt imagine spending the day with my mother or father and siblings day after day. I guess I always liked having this part of my life where I went to school by myself and mom/dad/brother didnt know what my day was like.
I can't picture homeschooling my kids, but I could see turning to it if they were picked on and miserable at school. My DD was 2.5 and I went to pick her up from daycare and her friends had been playing and left her out. I was like 3 weeks post-partum, but that broke my heart. I think i cried when I was getting her from the playground. Can't imagine what its like when they are older and more aware of it.
egoldber
08-04-2009, 03:12 PM
I agree it doesn't do a whole lot of good to worry about it in advance. But some of us are already dealing with school social issues. ;)
egoldber
08-04-2009, 03:23 PM
BUT it seems like alot of people decide to homeschool before their kids even start going to school, in which case they probably arent doing it because their kids arent fitting in, kwim? Maybe they are doing it for a better education if the local schools stink? I dont know.
As a PP siad, people homeschool for a lot of reasons. (For reference, I am not a homeschooler, but I would prefer to be.) Many people do it because they don't believe that institutional schooling is the preferred environment for their kids.
In general, homeschoolers are only isolated if they choose to be. Many (although not all) areas have homeschooling groups, classes, coops. Homeschoolers have sports leagues, language classes, scout troops, etc. Many people believe that being a homeschooler gives their families more freedom and flexibility, for travel, curriculum choices, etc. They are able to completely tailor their child's education to their needs, which no school, no matter how great and flexible, is able to do.
Homeschooled kids are not (generally ;) ) chained to a desk for 7 hours. Most families who homeschool find that their academic work gets done in a few hours and then the rest of the day is open for other activities.
Once I started doing research, I realized that homeschooling was almost nothing like I thought it was based on my assumptions.
mamicka
08-04-2009, 03:27 PM
Personally, I think there is a big difference between not allowing your child to bully or tease others and forcing them to be "friends" with everyone (as pp's mother did).
I am not, nor do I wish to be, friends with everyone I meet. There are people I just don't mesh with, and people I outright dislike, for whatever reason. I am not mean to them, I don't tease them, but I certainly don't invite them into my life. I don't think my children should be forced the be friends with everyone.
Yes, I will devastated if my children are the ones left out, but I don't think that means we should try to force children to go against human nature. And, I do think it is human nature to hang around people you like and to avoid people you don't like.
Again, I do not condone bullying or teasing. I will probably force my children to do whole class birthday parties and valentines. But I am not going to tell them they have to be friends with someone they have nothing in common with. I hope they don't make those judgments based on appearance or clothes or other superficial reasons, but I am not sure how to make that happen....
I think there's a difference between not being friends with someone & being downright cruel in your rejection of someone. The PP whose mother forced her to be close friends with those who had been rejected made a good point as well. That obviously wasn't right, either.
As far as how to not allow your kids to bully others or reject them based on superficial reasons... you remain involved enough to know when it's happening & you use discipline to correct the behavior. For example if you discover that DC has been unkind to or bullying a child at preschool, maybe playdates should be avoided for a while & discussions about empathy & basic courtesy might become more frequent.
brittone2
08-04-2009, 03:29 PM
I guess I understand homeschooling if your child is having a difficult time at school, being picked on, etc... I completely understand that. I would be heartbroken if my kids had a tough time at school. BUT it seems like alot of people decide to homeschool before their kids even start going to school, in which case they probably arent doing it because their kids arent fitting in, kwim? Maybe they are doing it for a better education if the local schools stink? I dont know.
I guess I just can't picture how homeschooling helps a kid socially who isn't having social issues at school. I would imagine that if you are homeschooled you might not have many friends who arent homeschooled because you wouldnt be in school with them all day, knowing whats happening, etc...It seems like the homeschooled kid would get left out as their friends went on to school and hung out with other classmates.
I also couldnt imagine spending the day with my mother or father and siblings day after day. I guess I always liked having this part of my life where I went to school by myself and mom/dad/brother didnt know what my day was like.
I can't picture homeschooling my kids, but I could see turning to it if they were picked on and miserable at school. My DD was 2.5 and I went to pick her up from daycare and her friends had been playing and left her out. I was like 3 weeks post-partum, but that broke my heart. I think i cried when I was getting her from the playground. Can't imagine what its like when they are older and more aware of it.
I homeschool for a variety of reasons. I would also HS if we were in the world's most fantastic school district :) I have many reasons, and bullying is not high on the list. (I actually had a fairly positive school experience in the social sense, and was not bullied other than some typical kid teasing here and there that happened to everyone).
I homeschool because it gives us tremendous flexibility to dive into my children's interests. It gives us great freedom in terms of travel, in terms of the number of free hours per day to pursue individual interests, and not being held to a linear progression of skills. Homeschooling allows for asynchronous learning...a kid might read at a 3rd grade level and be working on 5th grade math. I like being able to adapt curricula to meet my individual child's learning style. I like that I always know where my kids are academically...there isn't much need to review things over and over that they've mastered. When they are confused, it becomes immediately obvious and we can use all sorts of creative approaches to dive into the material in a different way. We have the freedom to walk away from a particular topic and revisit it during a time when it is more interesting to my child or when it may be more relevant, or when the child seems more "ready" for that skill.
My son is 5 and has several HS'd friends, as well as a diverse group of friend in the neighborhood that he plays with all of the time. We have two different neighbors his age and then he also has friends in the neighborhood who stop by to play/hang out that range from 8-16.
As he gets older, I actually think HSing offers more time for social interation than happens in the school system typically. (also consider the amount of time kids in school truly get for socializing...lunch, between classes, bus ride, some time during the day. I actually don't think it is always that extensive...but obviously it varies district to district). I'll encourage them to spend time volunteering, getting involved with a cause that means something to him. I'll encourage them to find mentorship opportunities in the community, to shadow professionals, to get their hands dirty in life. We have a local coffee shop where a bunch of professional writers hang out. I look forward to the day that maybe they will choose to spend time hanging out there and chatting with them, kwim? I think at that age, it is healthy to become more aware of the greater world, and I'm sure they willl enjoy expanding their relationships with other adults who have so much to teach. Maybe they'll build houses in Appalachia, volunteer on a local organic farm, or volunteer at the children's museum. I have no idea where there interests will be at that point in their lives, but HSing gives them a lot of space, flexibility and time to find what their passions are and to explore them in a more well-rounded way.
In our area, HSd kids can take half of their high school credits at a community college for free under certain circumstances. Even if it wasn't free, I'd encourage my kids to explore that option. To me it seems a more natural progression than the rigorous control that most high schools exert (needing a hall pass to use the restroom, etc.) and then suddenly dropping them off at college where everything falls on them.
I realize many of these opportunities can be obtained even when you send your kids to public school. However, with HSing, I think it is easier to find the extra time and flexibility.
I've discussed HSing with my 5 year old vs. public school. If he ever wants to try public school as he gets older, I'd be open to discussing and trying it with him. But right now he loves what we do. He realizes that most other kids are in a building most of the day while he's exploring the stream behind our house and taking water samples, grabbing up toads and identifying them in his book, coming up with messy experiments, and playing w/ his sister. And he's happy with that, and so is our entire family.
HSing is not socially isolating unless a family chooses to isolate itself (and yes, there are families that do so for religious or other reasons). My son is one of the most talkative 5 year olds I know. He is not intimidated by adults and will regularly ask local shopkeepers and professionals we see in the community all kinds of questions, etc. about things. He is not a wallflower ;)
we can agree to disagree. Just tossing those ideas out there as there are many stereotypes about why/how people homeschool. I'm only speaking for myself, as HSers are a very diverse group.
eta: in our area there is a bit of a market for extra curriculars, etc. open to HSers during typical school hours. The various programs are often less expensive as it is time that they would normally not be able to serve clients. Locally I know of a HS gymnastics program, a HS dance program, and a HS horseback riding program that offer discounts to HSers because typically they don't have students available during those hours to teach. We live 5 mins from a privately owned YMCA type of place (has indoor pools, ice skating, gym, etc.) and they offer HS "gym" there. And yes, the previously mentioned classes, co-ops, park days, field trips, and general get togethers.
edited to fix typos
bubbaray
08-04-2009, 03:31 PM
I think a lot of parents have trouble comprehending what schools REALLY like for kids now. It is not a very pleasant place for many kids. I truly believe that bullying now is completely different than in the dark ages when I was a kid.
I would seriously consider homeschooling, except for the fact that I have ZERO patience with my girls. DH might be good at it though. I know quite a few people here (Canada) who homeschool, none of them for religious reasons. Usually its to accommodate a sports/activity schedule (for example, one girl I know is homeschooled because of her rigorous ballet training). Like a PP said, its not 7 hrs a day of classes, far from it. The time spent homeschooling is about half of what the comparable instructional time is required in a school setting, b/c the child is getting 1:1 or similar attention from the parent.
I really really REALLY hope my girls have good experiences in school.
mamicka
08-04-2009, 03:32 PM
I don't think you have an accurate picture of what homeschooling usually looks like. We aren't home all day doing academic work. We do our academic work (1-2 hours/day) & then we read aloud to each other, play games, play outside & go for bike rides, meet-up with other homeschooling families at the park, boy scouts & AWANA in the evenings, swimming at the Y, field trips to museums & local businesses, holiday parties, etc. Honestly, if anything, it's the public school friends that feel like they're missing out, not the other way around.
fivi2
08-04-2009, 03:34 PM
I think there's a difference between not being friends with someone & being downright cruel in your rejection of someone. The PP whose mother forced her to be close friends with those who had been rejected made a good point as well. That obviously wasn't right, either.
As far as how to not allow your kids to bully others or reject them based on superficial reasons... you remain involved enough to know when it's happening & you use discipline to correct the behavior. For example if you discover that DC has been unkind to or bullying a child at preschool, maybe playdates should be avoided for a while & discussions about empathy & basic courtesy might become more frequent.
As I said, bullying and teasing are not acceptable to me. I wasn't trying to indicate I wouldn't stop that.
I simply meant trying to figure out why my child chooses not to be friends with someone can be a complicated process. And trying to judge their reasons for not being friends will be difficult, as there are generally many layers to social interactions.
mamicka
08-04-2009, 03:35 PM
I homeschool for a variety of reasons. I would also HS if we were in the world's most fantastic school district :) I have many reasons, and bullying is not high on the list. (I actually had a fairly positive school experience in the social sense, and was not bullied other than some typical kid teasing here and there that happened to everyone).
I homeschool because it gives us tremendous flexibility to dive into my children's interests. It gives us great freedom in terms of travel, in terms of the number of free hours per day to pursue individual interests, and not being held to a linear progression of skills. Homeschooling allows for asynchronous learning...a kid might read at a 3rd grade level and be working on 5th grade math. I like being able to adapt curricula to meet my individual child's learning style. I like that I always know where my kids are academically...there isn't much need to review things over and over that they've mastered. When they are confused, it becomes immediately obvious and we can use all sorts of creative approaches to dive into the material in a different way. We have the freedom to walk away from a particular topic and revisit it during a time when it is more interesting to my child or when it may be more relevant, or when the child seems more "ready" for that skill.
My son is 5 and has several HS'd friends, as well as a diverse group of friend in the neighborhood that he plays with all of the time. We have two different neighbors his age and then he also has friends in the neighborhood who stop by to play/hang out that range from 8-16.
As he gets older, I actually think HSing offers more time for social interation than happens in the school system typically. (also consider the amount of time kids in school truly get for socializing...lunch, between classes, bus ride, some time during the day. I actually don't think it is always that extensive...but obviously it varies district to district). I'll encourage them to spend time volunteering, getting involved with a cause that means something to him. I'll encourage them to find mentorship opportunities in the community, to shadow professionals, to get their hands dirty in life. We have a local coffee shop where a bunch of professional writers hang out. I look forward to the day that maybe they will choose to spend time hanging out there and chatting with them, kwim? I think at that age, it is healthy to become more aware of the greater world, and I'm sure he'll enjoy expanding his relationships with other adults who have so much to teach. Maybe they'll build houses in Appalachia, volunteer on a local organic farm, or volunteer at the children's museum. I have no idea where there interests will be at that point in their lives, but HSing gives them a lot of space, flexibility and time to find what their passions are and to explore them in a more well-rounded way.
In our area, HSd kids can take half of their high school credits at a community college for free under certain circumstances. Even if it wasn't free, I'd encourage my kids to explore that option. To me it seems a more natural progression than the rigorous control that most high schools exert (needing a hall pass to use the restroom, etc.) and then suddenly dropping them off at college where everything falls on them.
I realize many of these opportunities can be obtained even when you send your kids to public school. However, with HSing, I think it is easier to find the extra time and flexibility.
I've discussed HSing with my 5 year old vs. public school. If he ever wants to try public school as he gets older, I'd be open to discussing and trying it with him. But right now he loves what we do. He realizes that most other kids are in a building most of the day while he's exploring the stream behind our house and taking water samples, grabbing up toads and identifying them in his book, coming up with messy experiments, and playing w/ his sister. And he's happy with that, and so is our entire family.
HSing is not socially isolating unless a family chooses to isolate itself (and yes, there are families that do so for religious or other reasons). My son is one of the most talkative 5 year olds I know. He is not intimidated by adults and will regularly ask local shopkeepers and professionals we see in teh community all kinds of questions, etc. about things. He is not a wallflower ;)
we can agree to disagree. Just tossing those ideas out there as there are many stereotypes about why/how people homeschool. I'm only speaking for myself, as HSers are a very diverse group.
Well-said Beth. We are conservative Christians but that isn't even one iota of why we homeschool.
egoldber
08-04-2009, 03:36 PM
Honestly, if anything, it's the public school friends that feel like they're missing out, not the other way around.
This is definitely how I feel. There are so many activities that Sarah would enjoy and there simply is no time to do when you take into consideration her school schedule, homework load and the fact that she still needs a lot of sleep. And we prefer our weekends to be family time.
brittone2
08-04-2009, 03:38 PM
I don't think you have an accurate picture of what homeschooling usually looks like. We aren't home all day doing academic work. We do our academic work (1-2 hours/day) & then we read aloud to each other, play games, play outside & go for bike rides, meet-up with other homeschooling families at the park, boy scouts & AWANA in the evenings, swimming at the Y, field trips to museums & local businesses, holiday parties, etc. Honestly, if anything, it's the public school friends that feel like they're missing out, not the other way around.
This is similar to our experience as well. My son is 5. Honestly, we spend very little time on academic work, and most of it is just feeding his interests. He is reading well, understands math concepts that are beyond what are taught in K, etc. and that's with a very, very relaxed/eclectic approach. We are life learners, and do not have any desire to recreate "school at home" by sitting at the kitchen table for 7 hours a day. No way, no how!
You know, I think the unease that people feel about homeschooling has to with it as a competitor for public schools - - not the intrinsic merit of homeschooling. From my perspective, I LOVE homeschoolers, I am grateful to them. They pay into the public tax base that my child will use for school and don't impose costs on the public school system. The only way homeschooling would ever bother me is if it became very pervasive (as in the majority of the population) AND resulted in drastic cuts to public education. I don't think that is likely to happen - - but I think that latent fear may drive some of the instintive uneasiness elicited in homeschooling threads.
brittone2
08-04-2009, 03:48 PM
You know, I think the unease that people feel about homeschooling has to with it as a competitor for public schools - - not the intrinsic merit of homeschooling. From my perspective, I LOVE homeschoolers, I am grateful to them. They pay into the public tax base that my child will use for school and don't impose costs on the public school system. The only way homeschooling would ever bother me is if it became very pervasive (as in the majority of the population) AND resulted in drastic cuts to public education. I don't think that is likely to happen - - but I think that latent fear may drive some of the instintive uneasiness elicited in homeschooling threads.
Hmmm...I understand what you are saying but that hasn't been my personal experience. I find it more akin to what I'd expect if sending my child to an expensive, elite private school...the feeling I get from people sometimes is "if our neighborhood school is good enough for my child, why isn't it good enough for yours?" type of thing, kwim? It is as if I'm bashing their choice by making a different one (and I pretty much never get into our reasons for HSing and usually just give people the answer that it is the best fit for our family so as not to end up debating the merits of public vs HSing, kwim?). I totally get that HSing is not an option that many families want to pursue or could pursue. I don't think it is the right fit for every family and I totally respect the choices of others. But if someone is going to grill me on reasons, then I'll certainly list them...but usually only when someone is really pressing me. Fortunately that has only happened once or twice so far IRL.
eta: it is also becoming more of an issue now that DS is officially "school age" and would be attending K in the fall if we weren't HSing. So we get more direct questions about where he goes to school, etc. now and sometimes the grilling follows ;) The worst is when relative strangers decide to "quiz" your HS'd child in public. Yeah, that's only happened once, but I've heard it happens quite often in HSers. I had the guy at the meat market asking my 4 year old to read his nametag (in cursive) if DS was "really able to read." Sigh.
khalloc
08-04-2009, 03:49 PM
I don't think I am disagreeing about homeschooling. I read your reasons and they are very valid ones. I guess each family has to make choices right for them. I dont think I'd have the energy, motivation or discipline to try homeschooling. I'm just saying I still think I'd miss out on some experiences if I was homeschooled. And I still have never met anyone that has been homeschooled. I've only read about it in forums like these. So it seems foreign to me. But by the amount of people who talk about it here, I am aware that its gaining momentum and alot of people are doing it.
brittone2
08-04-2009, 03:54 PM
I don't think I am disagreeing about homeschooling. I read your reasons and they are very valid ones. I guess each family has to make choices right for them. I dont think I'd have the energy, motivation or discipline to try homeschooling. I'm just saying I still think I'd miss out on some experiences if I was homeschooled. And I still have never met anyone that has been homeschooled. I've only read about it in forums like these. So it seems foreign to me. But by the amount of people who talk about it here, I am aware that its gaining momentum and alot of people are doing it.
It is fine that it isn't the right fit for your DC and your own circumstances, but right now it is the right fit for our family and we are happy with our decision.
I actually think I would have learned quite a bit more in middle/high school had I been unleashed w/ a huge pile of books and free time at my disposal, and kind of wish that had been part of my own educational experience. Everyone's personal experiences are different and I'm sure others do not share that view.
Brittone, you are probably right that IRL - - not on this thread which I think may have suffered from things coming out sounding more severe on email - - its the "isn't the school my kid is going to good enough for you" that gets people.
I guess I am just somewhat dense to that kind of social pressure because to me it seems so obvious that homeschooling and private school are GREAT things for public school because of the many thousands of dollars those parents pay for public schooling. Really, if you added up all that money we would probably have to have a National Homeschoolers/Private Schoolers Appreciation Day!
brittone2
08-04-2009, 04:21 PM
Brittone, you are probably right that IRL - - not on this thread which I think may have suffered from things coming out sounding more severe on email - - its the "isn't the school my kid is going to good enough for you" that gets people.
I guess I am just somewhat dense to that kind of social pressure because to me it seems so obvious that homeschooling and private school are GREAT things for public school because of the many thousands of dollars those parents pay for public schooling. Really, if you added up all that money we would probably have to have a National Homeschoolers/Private Schoolers Appreciation Day!
LOL at the appreciation day ;) I'm glad there are options for everyone, and I certainly think there are some amazing public schools and I think those are a great fit for many families. And I'm thankful there are diverse options for private school, etc. as well. eta: and IRL, I really do not get into our reasons. Unfortunately some people start pressing (but this has been rare so far). However, at the same time I can't hide that we HS, especially now that DS is old enough to start K officially. That puts us in the uncomfortable position of having people wonder why we don't want to send our child to public school, unfortunately. That seems to happen even if we just give the short and sweet "it is the best fit for us" type of answer...hard to get around the feelings it seems to bring out in people, even if we don't get into our motivations (which we do not, 99% of the time)
AngelaS
08-04-2009, 04:42 PM
I homeschool for a variety of reasons. I would also HS if we were in the world's most fantastic school district :) I have many reasons, and bullying is not high on the list. (I actually had a fairly positive school experience in the social sense, and was not bullied other than some typical kid teasing here and there that happened to everyone).
I homeschool because it gives us tremendous flexibility to dive into my children's interests. It gives us great freedom in terms of travel, in terms of the number of free hours per day to pursue individual interests, and not being held to a linear progression of skills. Homeschooling allows for asynchronous learning...a kid might read at a 3rd grade level and be working on 5th grade math. I like being able to adapt curricula to meet my individual child's learning style. I like that I always know where my kids are academically...there isn't much need to review things over and over that they've mastered. When they are confused, it becomes immediately obvious and we can use all sorts of creative approaches to dive into the material in a different way. We have the freedom to walk away from a particular topic and revisit it during a time when it is more interesting to my child or when it may be more relevant, or when the child seems more "ready" for that skill.
My son is 5 and has several HS'd friends, as well as a diverse group of friend in the neighborhood that he plays with all of the time. We have two different neighbors his age and then he also has friends in the neighborhood who stop by to play/hang out that range from 8-16.
As he gets older, I actually think HSing offers more time for social interation than happens in the school system typically. (also consider the amount of time kids in school truly get for socializing...lunch, between classes, bus ride, some time during the day. I actually don't think it is always that extensive...but obviously it varies district to district). I'll encourage them to spend time volunteering, getting involved with a cause that means something to him. I'll encourage them to find mentorship opportunities in the community, to shadow professionals, to get their hands dirty in life. We have a local coffee shop where a bunch of professional writers hang out. I look forward to the day that maybe they will choose to spend time hanging out there and chatting with them, kwim? I think at that age, it is healthy to become more aware of the greater world, and I'm sure they willl enjoy expanding their relationships with other adults who have so much to teach. Maybe they'll build houses in Appalachia, volunteer on a local organic farm, or volunteer at the children's museum. I have no idea where there interests will be at that point in their lives, but HSing gives them a lot of space, flexibility and time to find what their passions are and to explore them in a more well-rounded way.
In our area, HSd kids can take half of their high school credits at a community college for free under certain circumstances. Even if it wasn't free, I'd encourage my kids to explore that option. To me it seems a more natural progression than the rigorous control that most high schools exert (needing a hall pass to use the restroom, etc.) and then suddenly dropping them off at college where everything falls on them.
I realize many of these opportunities can be obtained even when you send your kids to public school. However, with HSing, I think it is easier to find the extra time and flexibility.
I've discussed HSing with my 5 year old vs. public school. If he ever wants to try public school as he gets older, I'd be open to discussing and trying it with him. But right now he loves what we do. He realizes that most other kids are in a building most of the day while he's exploring the stream behind our house and taking water samples, grabbing up toads and identifying them in his book, coming up with messy experiments, and playing w/ his sister. And he's happy with that, and so is our entire family.
HSing is not socially isolating unless a family chooses to isolate itself (and yes, there are families that do so for religious or other reasons). My son is one of the most talkative 5 year olds I know. He is not intimidated by adults and will regularly ask local shopkeepers and professionals we see in the community all kinds of questions, etc. about things. He is not a wallflower ;)
we can agree to disagree. Just tossing those ideas out there as there are many stereotypes about why/how people homeschool. I'm only speaking for myself, as HSers are a very diverse group.
eta: in our area there is a bit of a market for extra curriculars, etc. open to HSers during typical school hours. The various programs are often less expensive as it is time that they would normally not be able to serve clients. Locally I know of a HS gymnastics program, a HS dance program, and a HS horseback riding program that offer discounts to HSers because typically they don't have students available during those hours to teach. We live 5 mins from a privately owned YMCA type of place (has indoor pools, ice skating, gym, etc.) and they offer HS "gym" there. And yes, the previously mentioned classes, co-ops, park days, field trips, and general get togethers.
edited to fix typos
Beth again said it wonderfully. And with Mamicka, we're conservative Christians as well, but that's not the main reason we homeschool.
My oldest is going to be a 6th grader and has no desire to 'go' to school. She's perfectly happy doing her schoolwork at home and spending her free time playing piano, doing crafts and playing with her friends. She does have friends--neighborhood ones, ones from church, and pretty much anyone else she encounters that will talk to her--they're far from shy and unsocialized around here! LOL
I spend time each week in our public school because my youngest is getting speech therapy thru the school system (which she cannot have once she's school aged and homeschooled--how interesting is that??). I leave the school every day thankful that I get to homeschool. From the time I see wasted there, to the yelling teachers, to the kids being ugly to each other... oy!
mamicka
08-04-2009, 04:46 PM
I'm just saying I still think I'd miss out on some experiences if I was homeschooled.
Of course homeschoolers miss out on some experiences that kids who "go" to school have. So do kids who "go" to school compared to what homeschoolers experience. Part of deciding what path is best for you is deciding which experiences you consider more important.
mamicka
08-04-2009, 04:50 PM
As I said, bullying and teasing are not acceptable to me. I wasn't trying to indicate I wouldn't stop that.
I simply meant trying to figure out why my child chooses not to be friends with someone can be a complicated process. And trying to judge their reasons for not being friends will be difficult, as there are generally many layers to social interactions.
I didn't mean to imply that you would tolerate bullying, I'm sorry if it came across that way.
But I guess in my experience, it isn't difficult to recognize bullying or teasing or any other kind of unkind rejection. It's usually pretty apparent in young children & I think that's when it starts. In older children, it can be much more subtle but still quite easily recognizable if there is adequate supervision. JMHumbleO
kijip
08-04-2009, 05:02 PM
I spend time each week in our public school because my youngest is getting speech therapy thru the school system (which she cannot have once she's school aged and homeschooled--how interesting is that??).
That's too bad and really, IMO unfair since it's not like you don't pay for school too. Here all intervention services are available even if the child is not in school if the child qualifies. I was also given the option to go to school just for Orchestra if I liked (I decided not to do so).
Perhaps she can see a SLP at the Children's Hospital once she is in school. I needed to see a SLP until I was about 10.
maestramommy
08-04-2009, 09:51 PM
I agree it doesn't do a whole lot of good to worry about it in advance. But some of us are already dealing with school social issues. ;)
To be sure;) I don't want to sound like speaking generally, just parents whose children aren't in school yet.
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