WWYD - rewards for good behavior (long)

[newbiemom]

DS1 is starting K. The K teacher sent us a packet and in it there was an explanation of a behavioral rewards program she plans to incorporate. Essentially, each extra day of good behavior in a week, the kids get a bigger and bigger prize, so that if you have five days of good behavior, you get a prize AND a lollipop.
I am somewhat irritated by this for two reasons:
Behaving well in school is a given, an expectation, and my kid really doesn't have any problems with good behavior. I don't like the fact that something that comes somewhat naturally to him (and is a given expectation from us already) will now become artificial and that everytime he's "good" he will learn to expect something. I can certainly understand doing the rewards for kids who have a hard time with learning acceptable behavior for school.

Second - a LOLLIPOP?! Are you kidding me? Why not just stickers?

Sure, my DS1 might undergo a personality change when he starts school and suddenly become crazed and never get the chance to even get the rewards. But if he behaves as he normally does, I fully expect that he would be able to get the prize and lollipop almost every week (this is not a brag, he is a very laid back people-pleaser).
I understand the need for behavior mod programs, but only when needed, not as a all encompassing classroom practice.

So, all that said, how would you deal with this situation - in terms of "you're expected to behave well, all these prizes are really not things you should be getting" and encouraging him to behave well without always expecting awards vs supporting the teacher and what's happening in the classroom?

I don't know if I'm expressing myself well. It just bugs me. I guess I wanted to just get it out there and see what other moms think.

[Indianamom2]

Well, my honest thought is this:

It would not/did not matter at all to me if teachers rewarded or did not reward my behavior in class because I knew that good behavior was what my parents expected of me. End of story. I too, would have received rewards every week in that sort of situation, but it wouldn't have been my motivation.

Granted, not every child who is in that class will have parents who expect good behavior, and this is precisely why the teacher is employing this tactic. Is it a perfect tactic? No, but it might help most of the kids behave better and thus all of the kids learn more. Besides, a lollipop a week will not kill anyone!

Just my opinion, though.

Christina

[s_gosney]

I could go on and on about this. I do not care for this type of behavior management strategy at all. DD's well-respected and seemingly wonderful teacher does utilize a similar strategy though (10 days of not having to pull your card = prize from treasure chest) as well as some earning of tally marks that happens by table which I don't fully follow (I only heard this part from dd). I do not like the external motivation. I do not like the public nature of pulling one's card (which can be shaming, but good teachers try to avoid the shaming aspect I would think). I cringed when at the end of day 2, dd was already talking about the "bad kids."
All of that said, these systems are really pervasive and I have had to make up my mind that this is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme. I do think it has the potential to undermine internal motivation, but I just talk to dd a lot about how everybody has bad days and that if she ever gets her card pulled, we'll just try again the next day, that what really matters to me is that she does her best, etc etc.
I'm looking forward to the replies on this one!

[egoldber]

I HATE these programs for the same reason as the PP said. They do not work for the long term and create a great deal of shame for many children.


Granted, not every child who is in that class will have parents who expect good behavior, and this is precisely why the teacher is employing this tactic.

Sorry but this gets me. Children who struggle to "behave" in a class with 20+ kids in a loud, highly stimulating environment with a GREAT deal of stress do not necessarily have parents who do not expect good behavior. Children in early elementary can have be in a VERY wide range, developmentally and emotionally. Kids entering K can range from age 4 to 6 or even almost 7 in our district. Expecting them all to behave perfectly in a classroom situation is simply not a developmentally appropriate expectation.

But as the PP said, I have had to grit my teeth about these things a bit. Sarah's first grade teacher used them extensively and it was a HUGE HUGE emotional issue for us. Her second grade teacher did not use them much, and incidentally had much greater classroom management skills and had a very calm and quiet classroom.

[kransden]

For an AVERAGE kid these systems work great! Unfortunately, there will always be a few kids in the class that this doesn't work on. Dd has a classmate that has a yellow light or worse almost every day. I feel very bad for him.

[egoldber]

For an AVERAGE kid these systems work great!

I'm not being snarky, I am asking a genuine question. Who are these kids? The kids I know who "do well" with them are kids who are generally quiet, calm and well-behaved anyway. The kids who don't do well with them (that I know) have issues is some way or another: regulatory control issues, ADHD, SPD, ASD, etc.

Are there truly kids that you find these systems help them learn self control vs just maturity or getting used to the classroom situation?

And then as a teacher, what do you do in those situations where the system does not work and you end with kids getting the "bad kids" label which tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[vludmilla]

I'm not being snarky, I am asking a genuine question. Who are these kids? The kids I know who "do well" with them are kids who are generally quiet, calm and well-behaved anyway. The kids who don't do well with them (that I know) have issues is some way or another: regulatory control issues, ADHD, SPD, ASD, etc.

Are there truly kids that you find these systems help them learn self control vs just maturity or getting used to the classroom situation?

And then as a teacher, what do you do in those situations where the system does not work and you end with kids getting the "bad kids" label which tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Not directed to me so I guess I'm butting in here a bit. I'm a school psych and I work with students and teachers to improve behavior. There are so many reasons that a student's behavior may interfere and it can be very challenging and time consuming to really figure out what the underlying issue(s) are. Clearly, behavior plans with incentives have become a popular way to address undesired behavior. I do think some people overuse these plans but I wouldn't go so far as to say that these plans are never appropriate or don't work at all. I tend to prefer using a more holistic approach to addressing undesired behavior. I like to observe several times and take a good history with parents/student/teacher. Often that will suggest some ideas that have nothing to do with a behavior plan. A little tweaking of the environment will often change the behavior. We do not always need to expect or ask the student to change. Having said all of this, however, I have designed behavior plans for some students and typically those students were significantly developmentally disabled. I remember a young student with ASD, speech/language delays, and bipolar d/o and he responded extremely well to a behavior plan that resulted in him receiving a treat at the end of each day. For him it was the best choice as we had tried many other things that didn't work and his undesired behavior was serious stuff (pulling a staff or student's arm while they walked down stairs...). So I guess I am just saying let's not just discard the behavior plan altogether but rather let's try comprehensive, functional behavior assessments that may result in a behavior plan, or not. :)

[egoldber]

I tend to prefer using a more holistic approach to addressing undesired behavior. I like to observe several times and take a good history with parents/student/teacher. Often that will suggest some ideas that have nothing to do with a behavior plan. A little tweaking of the environment will often change the behavior. We do not always need to expect or ask the student to change. Having said all of this, however, I have designed behavior plans for some students and typically those students were significantly developmentally disabled. I remember a young student with ASD, speech/language delays, and bipolar d/o and he responded extremely well to a behavior plan that resulted in him receiving a treat at the end of each day. For him it was the best choice as we had tried many other things that didn't work and his undesired behavior was serious stuff (pulling a staff or student's arm while they walked down stairs...). So I guess I am just saying let's not just discard the behavior plan altogether but rather let's try comprehensive, functional behavior assessments that may result in a behavior plan, or not.

I don't disagree with any of that. My objection is to the one size fits all/classroom wide "get a piece of candy if your stick stays on green for a week" kind of plan. My only point is those kinds of plans only tend to work with kids who are basically well behaved and not bothered by the school environment in the first place.

I also see that you mention that the behavior modification plan is not the first step. The first step is to consider the kid and the environment and see if there are changes that can be made to set them up to be more successful. I completely agree with that.

I don't mean that kids can't and should not modify their behaviors in school. But I do object to poorly executed programs that are not well understood by the people using them and who have little appreciation that because little Suzie does well with this program and little Betsy does not, that there is inherently something wrong with little Betsy and/or little Betsy's parents don't care about behavior.

[brittone2]

This would make me highly uncomfortable. Using rewards for positive reinforcement to change a selected behavior for a period of time in a specific child is one thing IMO, but applying it to an entire class indefinitely would bother me. A lot. (as you said, OP).

I guess the teacher hasn't read Alfie Kohn? ;)

[egoldber]

I guess the teacher hasn't read Alfie Kohn?

Funny.

And I guess you can't tell this is one of my hot button issues. :bag

Nothing like your 6 year old being in tears because "I keep trying and trying to be good, but I never get to get a treasure from the treasure box...."

[brittone2]

Funny.

And I guess you can't tell this is one of my hot button issues. :bag

Nothing like your 6 year old being in tears because "I keep trying and trying to be good, but I never get to get a treasure from the treasure box...."

:hug: I would find that very frustrating to deal w/ on a daily basis.

[kayte]

This would make me highly uncomfortable. Using rewards for positive reinforcement to change a selected behavior for a period of time in a specific child is one thing IMO, but applying it to an entire class indefinitely would bother me. A lot. (as you said, OP).

I guess the teacher hasn't read Alfie Kohn? ;)

:yeahthat:

I was going to say perhaps someone needs to anonymously leave a copy of Punished by Rewards in her box in the front office.

[vludmilla]

I don't mean that kids can't and should not modify their behaviors in school. But I do object to poorly executed programs that are not well understood by the people using them and who have little appreciation that because little Suzie does well with this program and little Betsy does not, that there is inherently something wrong with little Betsy and/or little Betsy's parents don't care about behavior.

I agree, behavior plans are often being used (and overused) by people who really have no training in designing them or using them, much less in the theory of human behavior. That is a big problem. The difficulties that your daughter has had in school have been awful and some of the responses of her teachers have been atrocious. I am very sorry that there were so few people with the knowledge and sensitivity to work with her; it shouldn't be that way in schools. I had just wanted to clarify that these kinds of behavior plans can work, at times, on an individual basis, when properly executed. Of course, that was so very clearly not the case in your daughter's class.

[ha98ed14]

Nothing like your 6 year old being in tears because "I keep trying and trying to be good, but I never get to get a treasure from the treasure box...."

Eeee Gads! That's gotta be he11 for everyone concerned. I'm totally guessing, but type of system seems like a "quick fix" type of plan. I think in the middle of a school day, teachers are in need of a quick fix to keep the class moving and not spend 10 full minutes of instructional time dealing with one or a few kids' behavior problems. I can totally understand that. But honestly, I can't imagine what the response of the teacher is to a kid who is crying because they have a pervasive lack of impulse control and can't make it to the end of the day with their good behavior scorecard intact. It's gets to be expensive buying all those junky toys to fill the treasure box. DH got rid of a system about two years ago. It was based on stars. The class earned them as a whole and everyone had a card to collect, but kids could lose them individually for inappropriate behavior. At the end of the term there was an "auction" and kids bid on items with their stars. But he decided it didn't really work, so he did away with it.

I hear the stories about the kids with a lack of impulse control. I'm not joking when I say that some of these students at DH's school are deliberatly put in his class because he has a reputation for being able to handle them exceptionally well. Most come with an ASD or Asp dx, but not all. I really don't know how he does it. One kid threw/ toppled/ pushed over his desk last year. (9-10 yrs/ 4th grd.) It would have rattled me so bad, but DH dealt with it and moved on while keeping the other 31 kids engaged and out of harms way. (Can I tell you how small these classrooms are with 32 kids in them?) But his skill in these situations is, I think, a function of personality and experience. I don't know what kind of system gives you the benefit of those.

[egoldber]

And in fairness to her first grade teacher, she did have a VERY challenging mix of kids that year. Lots of various issues: ADHD, impulse control, several kids with no or very limited English, strong personalities, etc. And she was a young teacher (second year out of school). Very sweet, but still learning her way and I'm sure she was probably desperate. But when it's your kid, your sympathy level isn't necessarily so high....


One kid threw/ toppled/ pushed over his desk last year. (9-10 yrs/ 4th grd.)

Yowza!!! That is soooo not what I mean by behavior. I mean kids who like to talk too much, stand up at their desks, are ansty at circle time, emotionally sensitive and cry a lot, etc.

[vludmilla]

That is soooo not what I mean by behavior. I mean kids who like to talk too much, stand up at their desks, are ansty at circle time, emotionally sensitive and cry a lot, etc.

You know, to me, some of what you mention here isn't a behavior to be extinguished; it is developmentally within the normal range and needs to be tolerated better in schools. Being antsy, standing up at your desk, these are not big things in my book and they don't require a behavior plan. I've seen very effective classrooms where teachers allowed antsy students to stand at their desk while doing their work and it was no problem at all...not disruptive in the least. Sometimes "disruptive" behavior is only disruptive because of the adults response to it.

[egoldber]

it is developmentally within the normal range and needs to be tolerated better in schools

Thank you!!!! :bowdown:

But from my observation, these are the kinds of things that make kids have to "move their stick" or "turn their cards" not serious behavior problems.

[brittone2]

You know, to me, some of what you mention here isn't a behavior to be extinguished; it is developmentally within the normal range and needs to be tolerated better in schools.

:bighand:

:thumbsup:

[vludmilla]

But from my observation, these are the kinds of things that make kids have to "move their stick" or "turn their cards" not serious behavior problems.

Yeah, sadly, too many classroom teachers are looking for more compliance/towing the line behavior than I think young children are ready to give. This is where I like to think that good school psychs and CSW's can make a difference in perhaps influencing the culture of the school. Unfortunately, to some extent, our classrooms reflect our larger culture and in our larger culture we tend to equate greater compliance behavior with better "socialization" so I think we would need a pradigm shift of sorts in our culture to see substantial change in our classroom expectations.

[wendibird22]

From speaking with DH (who is an elem asst. principal) a lot of schools are integrating PBIS (Positive Behavioral Interventions & Support) programs. It's quite complex, but the short of it is focusing on what you want kids to do instead of not to do and relating that to the school's values (from the bus drivers, to the cafeteria aids, to the teachers). If you check out the PBIS site (http://www.pbis.org/default.aspx) you can see there's a lot involved with how instruction is carried out. But, I could see that a program like this (or other similar one) if not well executed and without considerable staff training could amount to nothing more than "reward good behavior" with treats. DH has even mentioned concern about the evaluation/assessment of success of the program when a teacher gives out too many or too few rewards. If I give out 10 rewards over a month and the teacher next door gives out 40 what does that mean? Am I not focusing enough on good behavior? Am I not good enough of a classroom manager to invoke good behavior? Am I a teacher who doesn't by into this program and simply refuse to give out junk?

I think these types of programs are well intentioned and could likely yield great results when done properly. Who wouldn't want to spend more time focusing on the positive instead of the negative (just like when we deal with our kids behavior at home). But, I'm sure many schools lack the time for training and the funding needed to fully implement them as intended and integrate all the other classroom practices that go along with it.

[boolady]

Her second grade teacher did not use them much, and incidentally had much greater classroom management skills and had a very calm and quiet classroom.

This doesn't surprise me at all. When I was teaching, the teachers whose styles I most admired and who were the best (IMHO) at having calm, quiet classrooms did not use rewards systems like those discussed here. I'm not a fan.

[lmwbasye]

OP...I would find out first if this is that single teacher's system or a grade-wide and/or school-wide system. I've worked in many schools where my behavior plan was laid out for me and I had no say in the matter. That being said, I am shocked about giving a lollipop out....we always had a no candy/food policy as a reward.

I agree with a lot that is said here...HOWEVER, while talking a lot is dev. appropriate, there are times that it is just not conducive to learning. I always expected it to be difficult for my kindergarteners to not talk during these times (esp. at the beginning of the year). So, the amount of time I would expect for them to be able to sit quietly and listen would extend and get longer throughout the year. I explained to my kiddos and parents what a talking time was (centers, recess, small groups, etc.) and when it was simply not allowed (read-aloud, quiet time, etc.) We also created a chart together that illustrated the different noise volumes during different activity times (no talking, talking with a partner, talking in a small group, whole class volume, outside volume).

Anyway, my point is, if your child is having difficulty please talk to the teacher and find out EXACTLY what is going on so you and she/he can come up with ideas for the child to be more successful. I truly believe that, generally, teacher want what is best for their students and are trying their best but also many feel that they have their hands tied on many many things. i.e. I HATE extrinsic rewards like the one listed but was forced to use things like that since it was a school-wide system.

Good luck!!

[wellyes]

I'm reading a really interesting book right now called "The Nurture Assumption" by Judith Rich Harris which argues that children are shaped more by peer relationships than by their parents. She argues that the "middle childhood years" (elementary school) have a profound impact on a person's social self / personality. In that context, teachers labelling students as "good" (and therefore other students are the opposite) can be really damaging. If a child learns to self-identify as an underachiever or someone who just can't do right, he'll grativate towards similar kids and they'll likely reinforce that behavior with one another.

My local school has a really good system -- all students are placed into "tribes" randomly. Kindergartners are part of 1 of 4 tribes. Rewards are given, sometimes, but on a group basis. This helps kids learn to encourage one another and to want to help the ones who struggle for the good of everyone. Apparently it's been very successful so far.

[lmwbasye]

TRIBES is awesome!! I've been in a school that did this once and it was great!!

[kransden]

I'm not being snarky, I am asking a genuine question. Who are these kids? The kids I know who "do well" with them are kids who are generally quiet, calm and well-behaved anyway. The kids who don't do well with them (that I know) have issues is some way or another: regulatory control issues, ADHD, SPD, ASD, etc.

Are there truly kids that you find these systems help them learn self control vs just maturity or getting used to the classroom situation?

And then as a teacher, what do you do in those situations where the system does not work and you end with kids getting the "bad kids" label which tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Here is what I do and what MY observations are. Remember I sub, so I have to deal with the class on a short term basis. So my actions reflect that. If I do a long term assignment I have different strategies depending on the needs of the class -every class is different. 25% of the class are naturally well behaved. 60% will be driven to good behavior with the proper incentive. This is my dd. The other 15% will have inappropiate behavior. Some of those kids act out due to what I call ignorant parenting. For example: No set schedule for the kid, no breakfast, bad breakfast i.e. grape soda, no sleep, some have bad family situations - the list goes on. The others act out because they can't help it no matter what. That sounds like Sarah. If you have a supportive school and parents, the teacher, if they want to, can work on behavior modification, but it is a long process. If the parents are a PITA and the school isn't behind the teacher, the kids will fall through the cracks.

I definately use stickers, candy, stamps or whatever as incentives. I always tell them they have 3 chances because everyone makes mistakes. I always spell out the rules of what I expect. 1. DON'T TOUCH EACH OTHER, OR EACH OTHER'S STUFF!!!! 2. Stay seated 3. Be quite. 4. Read a book or draw if you get done early. I realize this is an ideal not a reality. I am more strict as the grades go higher. I think that I have only once withheld a "prize" from a kindergartener. He was extremely bad that day. 99% of the younger kids want to please me. I pretty much make them follow rule 1. I stop that behavior immediately. It can lead to fights. (I teach rough kids) If I have a problem child, usually there is something that they can do to "earn" back their sticker. Picking up trash, straightening the books, sharpening the pencils, or writing a little extra. The key is to make it fair to the children that do follow the rules, but make it so the ones that can't are able to get something too. Children are big into fairness.

My dd talked and got a yellow light (1 yellow out of 17 greens). She isn't going to get a prize from the treasure chest for the month. She is upset, but I know she'll behave next time. It was a good learning lesson for her. Never being able to get a prize from the treasure chest is awful way to run a class. Kindness almost always works better.

As for what you do with children that have "issues", I can't really say. Why, because the issues are so different and what works for one won't work for the other. You have to find the incentive that works for that child.

Boy this is rambling, I had better stop. :)

[wellyes]

I don't believe a sub has the responsiblity to fix problem kids, of course, but this kind of got me thinking:


The other 15% will have inappropiate behavior. Some of those kids act out due to what I call ignorant parenting. For example: No set schedule for the kid, no breakfast, bad breakfast i.e. grape soda, no sleep, some have bad family situations - the list goes on. The others act out because they can't help it no matter what. That sounds like Sarah. If you have a supportive school and parents, the teacher, if they want to, can work on behavior modification, but it is a long process. If the parents are a PITA and the school isn't behind the teacher, the kids will fall through the cracks.


It's scary to me that teachers (or at least some teachers) believe that bad kids = bad parents = pretty hopeless. Again, I'm not attacking the PP, a sub certainly isn't going to make it all better. But I'm wondering if this viewpoint is common amoung teachers.

[boolady]

I don't believe a sub has the responsiblity to fix problem kids, of course, but this kind of got me thinking:



It's scary to me that teachers (or at least some teachers) believe that bad kids = bad parents = pretty hopeless. Again, I'm not attacking the PP, a sub certainly isn't going to make it all better. But I'm wondering if this viewpoint is common amoung teachers.

Yeah, I finished college a semester early and was a sub for that 1/2 year before I got a permanent job, but what a substitute does in a day or a few day time frame is not going to change the dynamics of the classroom or permanently alter someone's behavior. I don't believe that my subbing experience provided me with an accurate view of the students I had anyway-- there are some who don't adapt well to change or change makes them nervous, and may act out with a sub when they otherwise would not, etc. I'm not putting down subbing, because I know it's not an easy thing to do at all, but I would certainly never judge a child, their long-term behavior, their family situation, or anything else based on being intermittently in his or her classroom.

[wendibird22]

I don't believe a sub has the responsiblity to fix problem kids, of course, but this kind of got me thinking:



It's scary to me that teachers (or at least some teachers) believe that bad kids = bad parents = pretty hopeless. Again, I'm not attacking the PP, a sub certainly isn't going to make it all better. But I'm wondering if this viewpoint is common amoung teachers.

I understand where the PP is coming from that some students behavior is a result of parenting choices. I've known kids to come to school having had a can of Coke as their only breakfast. A sugary, caffeinated drink and an otherwise empty stomach does not set up a child for success in the classroom.

[kransden]

... I'm not putting down subbing, because I know it's not an easy thing to do at all, but I would certainly never judge a child, their long-term behavior, their family situation, or anything else based on being intermittently in his or her classroom.

I am not talking about walking into a class once and never seeing the students again, though that does happen. I agree it would be hard to get an accurate picture based on 6 hours spent with one child in a classroom of 24+ students. I usually have the students and siblings over and over again. Maybe the kids didn't tell you things, but they LOVE to share with me. PSA!!!! Never expect your kids to keep a secret! I know when Jose's mom brought home a new boyfriend to sleep over, and Jose got a new video game. Daddy spit in mommy's face. Nancy's dad is in jail. I see parents that are dressed to the 9s with perfect hair and nails, and their children are wearing filthy, smelly rags. I see kids that come hungry to school. Who knows why he wasn't signed up for free breakfast, or did they just drop him off too late to get it? Some bring Kool-Aid and Cheetos for lunch. Yummm...food coloring.

Poor parenting doesn't always equal bad kids. Sometimes they are what we consider the "best" kids - nice and quite, and they do what they are told the first time. Often ignorant parenting leads to poor school performance. Sally didn't get enough sleep so she is crabby, fighting, not paying attention, etc. Sally does poorly on her work. The teacher sends it home. Sally's mom doesn't help her. Is it because her mom is working two jobs or because she is watching TV? Sally will tell me. It gets into a vicious cyle. Sally starts acting out etc. So I 100% believe, because I personally have seen it over and over again, that ignorant parenting can produce problem children. It doesn't mean it will, but typically it does. On the flip side, you can be the best parent in the world and your child can still have problems. I just feel sorry for the kids with the ignorant parents. :( I feel the other problem kids with good parents at least have someone that's got their back kwim?

[egoldber]

I just feel sorry for the kids with the ignorant parents

I do hear you. And I appreciate that my issues with Sarah and school are really relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

I have mentioned my neice here before and her daughter. I have been urging my neice to get her DD into the local Headstart, but she does not seem to have the ability to follow through on that. Her DD will start K next year. It's just like you describe: string of random (often abusive) boyfriends, a mother who for whatever reason is not able to focus on getting her life together, a father who doesn't care, Mountain Dew and potato chips for breakfast, etc. There is no consistency in that poor little girl's life (just like there was none for my neice) and I fear for her as she grows up.

I know that my kids will never have to face that and how lucky we are.

[boolady]

Maybe the kids didn't tell you things, but they LOVE to share with me. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but whatever. I just said that I don't think that substitutes in general can create monumental change when they're not there on a consistent basis, no matter how often they're there, unless it's in a long-term capacity. No matter how much they shared with me, and as I worked in a very small district where I saw lots of them many times and also lived there and knew lots of their families, I wouldn't judge them based on my inconsistent presence in their classroom. And frankly, if some substitute wanted to label my child or my family based on seeing her a few times in the course of a few months or a year, I'd be pretty unhappy about it.

[kransden]

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but whatever. I just said that I don't think that substitutes in general can create monumental change when they're not there on a consistent basis, no matter how often they're there, unless it's in a long-term capacity. No matter how much they shared with me, and as I worked in a very small district where I saw lots of them many times and also lived there and knew lots of their families, I wouldn't judge them based on my inconsistent presence in their classroom. And frankly, if some substitute wanted to label my child or my family based on seeing her a few times in the course of a few months or a year, I'd be pretty unhappy about it.
Then you and I have different expectations.