At a complete loss [Archive] - Baby Bargains & Baby 411 Community

brittone2

08-28-2009, 02:03 PM

I'm sorry you are going through this.

Is there any way you can manage to put the behavior aside for a bit and work on connecting *first*? I think that part of your relationship(s) needs to heal before you are going to make progress on behavior. I think you need to work on healing the relationships and reconnecting as a family first, before worrying about anything else. That doesn't mean you don't/won't address their behavior, but I personally would think of it as laying the foundation for getting there down the road.

I find this w/ my own kids. They don't have the behaviors you are describing to the extent you are experiencing, but when DS really is acting up the most is when I find myself needing to step back and reconnect...put the relationship first (the GCM site has something about "connect before you correct".).

While going through that period of reconnecting and regrowing your relationship, I'd expect they'll test you by trying to push you away, and to test your boundaries and love for them, kwim? I think that's very normal and I'm guessing part of exploring whether the love and relationship will be unconditional.

Have you looked at something like the 5 Love Languages books?
( eta: http://www.amazon.com/Five-Love-Languages-Children/dp/1881273652

They are written from a Christian perspective, and I don't connect with those parts, but there is still a lot of good info if you can cut through the religious parts if you want to approach it secularly)

I know you are feeling done w/ counseling, but I really think it might be helpful if you can find someone who can coach you through reconnecting as a family.

I don't want to be annoying by handing out advice, but to me this whole thing just screams of needing to step waaaaay back and rebuild the relationship(s), before even going to something like a sticker chart/positive rewards, etc. kwim? Like completely relaying the foundation, and that will take a lot of work. But honestly, that seems like the the very core of what you are describing IMO...a need to just rebuild a relationship.

I don't know. I'm not in your house...it is tough. I think the right professional could help, but it sounds like you aren't ready for that.

eta: sending many hugs and positive thoughts your way.

m448

08-28-2009, 02:05 PM

You really do need to work on reattachment with the girls. Lots of books on the subject. However, I know that in times of stress the last thing we have time for is reading another book. Consider getting this one though:

http://www.amazon.com/Love-You-Rituals-Becky-Bailey/dp/0688161170

Aside from that, if you can bear receiving lots of honest feedback, please consider posting this on Gentle Christian Mothers. You'll receive advice from firm, loving moms who share their own struggles with kids yet don't push the typical pop psychology of toughening up that seems to be so popular. Firm limits with love yes, punishment or rewards as a cure all, no.

I definitely hear a lot of hurt in your post and rest assured that your girls do need you. A child will push and rail against a parent when they don't feel limits are consistent. They are testing to see if every.single.time they push the limit you will enforce it. Also when there are attachment issues they will push limits and behaviors to test your love for them. Will mom still love me if I do X? Over and over. You can head that off with the plan you've implemented. Begin to spend time with them. Quality time is not true. You just need time, lots and lots of it.

A wise mom on GCM made the obseration that the less time we spend with our kids, the less time we WANT to spend with our kids. Invest now, swallow the hurt of their apparent behavior and push through their own hurt. It will pay off for you and your family.

elliput

08-28-2009, 02:05 PM

Are you being consistent? It really sounds like anytime your DD1 flips out you back down. I am sure you have heard this before, but you are the parent, you set the rules.

I know this may sound a bit odd, but if you haven't seen Mary Poppins recently maybe you should. There are some really great ideas in the story for connecting with children and learning how to creatively parent. It couldn't hurt.

fivi2

08-28-2009, 02:05 PM

I am so sorry.

I agree with pp that you should stick with the plan as outlined by director. Don't let DD call the shots. Stick with it for a while - you won't see changes right away. If this were going to be easy, you'd have figured it out by now, right? You must be doing something (a lot of things) right, or they wouldn't know how to behave at school or other places. I think you need to start by rebuilding your relationship and let the rest of it wait while you do that!

I am sorry, but I haven't followed your other threads, so sorry if this has all already been covered!

Hope you can make a new start!

egoldber

08-28-2009, 02:09 PM

I can assure you it is NOT true that your children would care less if they never saw you again. Even children of abusive parents love them and want to be loved by them.

Also, I would NOT trust the assessment of a daycare provider to assess something as tricky as attachment disorder. I also really doubt it's true. It is so common for children to behave completely differently at daycare/school than they do at home, either better or worse. I woudl try not to read a whole lot into that.

You say you have seen a counselor, but have you seen someone for you? Just for you to talk to about your life and your concerns. I really worry about you. You sound so overwhelmed and stressed and I wonder at times if you are depressed or anxious or both.

And as for your girls, they are probably stressed as well. They've been traveling in an RV for several weeks. They have just changed daycares after many years at the previous place. Your older DD is starting K and that process has been stresfful for all of you. Your DD's have allergies which is stressful for them and you. They have seen their father VERY ill and out of control and in the hospital. They have seen their mother reacting to stress (which is normal) but still stressful for them. That is a LOT for kids that little.

Until you reduce the level of stress for all of you, I'm not sure it is possible to know what the underlying behavior really is.

I could write more, but I won't. You need to see someone ASAP. Really. The fact that you are even considering this means you are in crisis.

AnnieW625

08-28-2009, 02:09 PM

Do you think you could work up to material things with DD1 like:

sleep in bed five nights in a row and get time with mom or dad (do a suprise event), then do it five more times and then get something material with mom and dad like a trip to the ice cream store or a book store? Something educational. Do it for a whole month and then DD gets to pick the prize. I don't think that is too unfair and you'll both get control.

I also agree 100% with what Beth said. In the year I have been coming to this site you guys always seem to be going a trip (Disney, Maui, RVing) and while that's great maybe they just need some time at home alone with just themselves. I don't want to sound rude, but it sounds like you go on so many trips to over compensate for something that isn't available at home. I think the same could be said for both you and DH in regards to spending time alone every once in a while. You both might also need time alone with a counselor and then joint counseling once your counselor believes you are ready for that. I am not in your situation so I can't really make any accurate suggestions, but those are just a couple of thoughts that come to mind. Another one might be to apply to be on show like Super Nanny. That woman sure seems to know what she is doing.

deannanb

08-28-2009, 02:09 PM

If you think you might need the antidepressants, I would talk with another doctor -

as for what happened yesterday, it sounds like DD1 just wanted to take charge - it would not have mattered if you presented her with the marbles first - she wouldn't have liked it. You are taking charge and that made her mad.

I would present the calendar to her again - maybe the teacher at school can help you present it to her - or at least be there with you- and explain that this is what you are doing. If she acts up - off to her room/time-out chair. We don't be have that way in this house.

:hug:

Ceepa

08-28-2009, 02:09 PM

I think DDs revolting a bit is to be expected. You are telling them that things are changing and their behavior is expected to improve, and rightly so. Keep at it. Maybe modify the chart to correspond with marbles, but the time with you and DH is the end goal not a toy.

And if I were you, I would seriously rethink the activities for them. I know it may turn very ugly when you announce to the girls that they are not going to do A, B and C this fall, but it sounds like more time together and less time focused on driving them around is a step in the right direction. This may feel like punishment to them (and you) at first but I bet the three of you can come up with some activities to do together that allows more bonding and closeness.

I can tell you want it to get better and that sentiment will help carry you through the rough times.

zephyr

08-28-2009, 02:11 PM

Do you *always* feel panicky at the thought of playing with them and spending time with them? Personally, I would not give dd1 a choice in the matter of the rewards chart. Maybe dd2 will start going along with it and earning stickers and start doing fun stuff with you like going out for ice cream or going on a fun picnic to the park and if dd1 sees that, she might start being more open to the idea. Also how much time do you spend with them on a daily/weekly basis just goofing around and doing fun stuff? JMHO, but I think they may want to spend more time with you and their acting out is a way of telling you that.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 02:12 PM

elektra

08-28-2009, 02:13 PM

Hugs.
I don't have time to write a detailed response but I just wanted to say I'm sorry you feel so stuck and worn out. I know my own DD frustrates the crap out of me too sometimes by purposely doing exactly what I ask her not to.
I don't know what you should do but leaving is probably not the best answer in the long term.

Snow mom

08-28-2009, 02:14 PM

:hug: I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. The biggest thing I can say is that you can't expect any changes overnight. You have an established relationship with your DDs and it will take a lot to make changes to that relationship. You might have to start smaller with the reward chart than the goals you list. Think about smaller, intermediate goals and adjust your expectations as your girls are able to fairly consistently meet the current goal. I'd recommend sitting down and writing out a few end goals, then write as many intermediate steps as possible to getting to the end goal from where you are. Don't expect to be able to skip over those intermediate steps. My gut reaction on your DD1s response to the reward chart is that she is trying to push you away and that you just have to be the adult and keeping trying to have a relationship with her. I think Beth's suggestion of trying to build a relationship first and discipline second is good. I hope things will start to turn around for your family soon.

babybunny

08-28-2009, 02:15 PM

<<HUGS>>

I always tell my DH that my DS is adorable when he is sleeping, but we seem to battle it out during his waking hours. And again -- he is a DREAM at daycare/pre-school or camp. I can relate to your issues, including remarks from DH.

I don't "play" with him that much either - as soon as I come home from work it is like my 2nd job starts. It's hard to focus on preparing dinner when he wants attention.He has gotten increasingly more disrespectful this week (is there something in the air???), but We had been doing better earlier this summer.

This summer I shifted my work hours earlier in the day. So I was getting up earlier in morning and mostly leaving before DS and DH were up - this was so I could pick him up from camp which ended earlier than daycare/preschool. So DH handled the morning routine alone for the most part. This gave me more "time" with DS in the late afternoon, with less stress when I did the pick-up. I had a few minutes to play baseball with DS in the backyard, etc. I also had time to go to the gym for an hour (with DS in tow) which oddly he really liked to do.

Recently, he wants me to "snuggle" on the couch with him while he watches TV and he wants me to call a friend and talk on the phone. I guess he feels a different energy from me when I chat with a close friend. He tells me this is his favorite thing in the whole world. I guess what I can take away from this is that he is craving a "happy/relaxed" vibe from me.
And why wouldn't he. When I get stressed, he gets crazy AND disrespectful.

So I do think that the suggestion to go away for a weekend might be really good for you as a start. (I would love to have enough guts to do it myself!)

I hope some of this was helpful.

dcmom2b3

08-28-2009, 02:20 PM

Oh, honey. No BTDT, but I couldn't read and not post immediately. I'm so sorry, I'm broken hearted for you.

Will think about it and come back with any suggestions I can muster, but like I said, my heart goes out to you.

:hug:

fivi2

08-28-2009, 02:22 PM

I think making them "earn" time with you and DH as a reward could drastically backfire. JMO. (eta: to me that screams "conditional love and acceptance", kwim? I think they need to know they are unconditionally loved and accepted right now above all else if your relationship is at the point it is.)

ITA w/ cutting back on activities. I think healing the entire family unit has to be your first priority. I would not express it as punishment, but as a need to reconnect as a family and put the family first.

After reading this, ITA with brittone. I think you need to spend more time together, period. Not make it contingent on certain behaviors/earning a reward.

I also agree with other posters - you need firm consistent limits. And I would also cut back on activities.

And I agree that you should maybe talk to a different dr.

Good luck!

Ceepa

08-28-2009, 02:24 PM

I think making them "earn" time with you and DH as a reward could drastically backfire. JMO. (eta: to me that screams "conditional love and acceptance", kwim? I think they need to know they are unconditionally loved and accepted right now above all else if your relationship is at the point it is.)

I agree with this and I wasn't clear. I was trying to say that DD's idea of substituting a toy for the behavior chart goal wouldn't be acceptable but maybe setting up an outing or activity for the whole family. Maybe have a few choices and everyone can vote on an activity. I think otherwise, OP and her DH should be available to the girls all the time and the girls should feel this unconditionally.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 02:25 PM

I agree with this and I wasn't clear. I was trying to say that DD's idea of substituting a toy for the behavior chart goal wouldn't be acceptable but maybe setting up an outing or activity for the whole family. Maybe have a few choices and everyone can vote. I think otherwise, OP and her DH should be available to the girls all the time and the girls should feel this unconditionally.

Gotcha. :thumbsup: Sorry I misunderstood your suggestion.

g-mama

08-28-2009, 02:27 PM

I'm sorry you are feeling so desperate and low. My kids drive me crazy sometimes and I don't always handle it as well as I should. There have been days this summer that I cannot wait for school to start up again so I can have some peace and quiet and be alone.

Leaving is not the answer. Talking about leaving or putting the kids up for adoption is not going to go over well with your husband and will put a brick wall between the two of you and make him feel like he needs to defend them from you. I know this because when I get too over-zealous in my complaining about my kids, my dh steps in and takes a very protective role, almost as if I'm an outsider who is endangering them, rather than their mother.

It's going to be hard to rebuild an attachment between you and your daughter(s) but you know it's both necessary and worth it. She's only 5, and you have her whole life to live as her mom. It's can't be too late already.

It would've been so much easier to handle if she had jumped into your arms with excitement about the new plan, but from the outside, it's easy to see that that would be an unrealistic reaction. From where you stand, I am sure it is harder to see.

I can sense your pain and I'm really sorry. :hug:

Ceepa

08-28-2009, 02:28 PM

Gotcha. :thumbsup: Sorry I misunderstood your suggestion.

Yeah, it was clear as mud. ;)

SnuggleBuggles

08-28-2009, 02:30 PM

(((((hugs)))))

You have gotten great advice. I am not sure I have much to add.

I will say that I really agree that you need to stay because even though it might not seem like it, the girls need and love you.

I really hope things get better for you. This has to be really hard. I applaud all the efforts you are making to try and improve things. It sounds like you are a great mom.

Beth

hbridge

08-28-2009, 02:32 PM

NancyJ_redo

08-28-2009, 02:32 PM

Hmm, I don't have any input or advice that others haven't offered, but I couldn't read and not post.

I experience a little bit of what you do in that my 6yo DS much prefers my DH over me, so it makes me a little resentful at times and generally causes me to want to spend *less* time with him since he pushes me away. But then I have to remind myself that the best remedy, and the way to ensure he doesn't push me too far away, is to do the opposite - spend more time with him just having fun.

Huge hugs to you, I'm really sorry you're going through this and that I don't have more constructive input to offer :grouphug:

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 02:37 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 02:42 PM

What do they like doing w / you? Can you spend time talking about it?

I mean, it could be brushing their hair, or letting them brush yours. It could be a backrub.

Can you ask them about things they'd like to do as a family? Family game night once a week? Picnic in the living room once a week?

Can you start having a family meeting (make it fun...maybe you do it at a coffee shop and everyone gets a snack to enjoy and you brainstorm and write down things you'd like to do as a family)?

Can you and your DH step back and think about something like a family mission statement? It might help with getting to where you want to go in the long term?

:hug:

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 02:45 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

doberbrat

08-28-2009, 02:46 PM

I have no suggestions other than to offer a **hug**

m448

08-28-2009, 02:47 PM

Hang in there. Like Beth mentioned I find that even as a SAHM there come times where I find myself correcting, correcting, correcting and giving so many orders that it helps to stand back and reconnect. Sort of like a "reset" button that helps get the parent and child on the same page and allows the child to understand the parent.

I'll admit, I'm an ornery first born with my dad's instinct to say a command and then expect it to be done right away. Obviously I should have gone into dog training not parenting. LOL For example I would belabor my point in the tough moment of a child having a meltdown. Duh moment but when I'm upset and trying to calm down the child is not receptive, they're in adrenaline mode. I now wait a bit until the moment has passed and try to remember to talk through it then and even role play a little. I used to think it was not going to work but I've seen a child implement something the next time the same incident happens. It's not perfect but you're laying down building blocks.

I also agree with egoldberg that no matter how awful, abusive, etc. a parent is (not saying you are) there is a yearning in a child for that parent. No one else can fill that void and I'm sure you've seen many an adult who still lives with the heart of a missing parent no matter the circumstance.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 02:48 PM

It could be fun and interesting to talk with them about that. Things they wish you could do as a family, things they individually each would like to do with you. Maybe you can offer suggestions if they are stumped. It might take time to get them to open up and think about it, but it could be a bonding experience to even discuss it, kwim?

egoldber

08-28-2009, 02:48 PM

I just did a mommmy-daughter weekend with Sarah. It was so fabulous and so fun. Maybe ask her what she would like to do and do it?

But I would really urge you to seek out someone for yourself, for you and DH and perhaps for your older DD. They could be the same person. But getting professional help, over a period of time, would be helpful. Not a few sessions, but someone who can help you develop a long term plan and support you in carrying it out.

AnnieW625

08-28-2009, 02:50 PM

It happened again I posted right after Beth:) and she made a great suggestion which is what I was kind of trying to imply in my original post, when each kid does something for a weeks period do something special that weekend as a surprise with just that one child, and yes you could leave a little bit of what you are going to do open for your DD to chose what is going to be done. IE: go to zoo is your idea, and after zoo is kid's idea like ice cream and they get to pick the flavor and maybe yours too.

I can get like that with DD too where I feel the only thing I am doing is getting her ready for something (although DH does do the bath, and bed time in our house) and I just have to remember to step back and look at the bigger picture. As an example DD loves to do puzzles and games so at night after dinner if I happen to be on the computer I need to tell myself it's best to get off the computer and play with DH and DD even if DD says "not you mama". I just have to be persistent and tell her that I want to play with her and eventually she caves in.

mommyp

08-28-2009, 02:52 PM

I don't really have suggestions, but just wanted to send lots of :hug::hug:
I think the advice I've read above is really good and just let you know I'm thinking about you guys!

brittone2

08-28-2009, 02:52 PM

I also agree with egoldberg that no matter how awful, abusive, etc. a parent is (not saying you are) there is a yearning in a child for that parent. No one else can fill that void and I'm sure you've seen many an adult who still lives with the heart of a missing parent no matter the circumstance.

Love this and totally agree. Also totally agree w/ resetting things...sometimes we just get locked into an increasingly adversarial relationship and head butting (that happens here!) and need to step back and think about what is really important. It doesn't mean you aren't disciplining, but think about how you can lay those building blocks m448 is talking about.

boolady

08-28-2009, 02:53 PM

Um, I have no clue. I don't really ever "do" anything "with" them. I "service" them (ie., do stuff for them -- brush hair, teeth, pickout/buy/launder clothes, make lunches, take to dr's appts, etc). But I don't usually do stuff with them. DH is the play guy, I'm the disciplinarian.

I hope it was okay to quote this quote, but I think this has to change. I also WOH full-time and am definitely more of the bad cop than DH is. DH has a day alone with DD during the week and works on Saturday, so I am home alone with her on Saturdays. When DH and DD are together, they do fun things all day long-- they go to the library, they garden, they go visit FIL, they go for walks and do sidewalk chalk, etc. For a long time, my time with DD both in the evenings and on Saturdays centered around tasks-- cooking, eating, bathing, laundry, going to bed, going to the grocery store, etc. I am not a great "player"-- DH is. I have the imagination of your average, well, attorney. :)

Nevertheless, I have really been trying this summer to make sure DD and I do fun things together-- go pick berries, ride bikes, play princess figurines together, do PlayDoh, you name it. Does it mean that less gets done around the house? Yes. Does it mean that I have to do more things that I was already doing once she was in bed? Yes. Do I feel more connected to her? Absolutely.

I am no expert, but I would forget the charts and behavior modification now and try to just find something you will enjoy doing with your girls and do it. I have read all of your threads about your girls and know how much you care about them. Please take care of yourself, too.

larig

08-28-2009, 03:00 PM

First off hugs. Parenting can be so difficult.

It sounds to me like you just need to spend time with your children, together and seperately. Do things that YOU love to do and introduce them to your interests; make jewelry, bake, go shopping and out to lunch, take a walk, let them talk about whatever... If that sounds like too much, maybe sit and watch a movie with them and talk about it (or not). Let them draw you into their world for awhile. Do something FUN and try to just connect with them.

This is exactly what I was thinking. My DS is not old enough yet for me to have BTDT yet, but I can remember the things I liked doing most with my mother--those happened to be the things that she liked to do too. Cooking. I was always in the kitchen with her cooking. she got a bunch of flour out and I would "measure" scoop fulls into a mixing bowl (which she didn't use, but it kept me busy). As I got older I participated in a baking class through our local 4H club (dorky, yes). She helped me bake through all the projects for the class and make cookies to compete at our state fair (blue ribbon!). She taught me to sew. I started with canvas stitching, then went to cross stitch, embroidery and ultimately when 12 made a skirt and top from a pattern with her help with the sewing machine. We sang together often. She would grab a big song book (songs from the 60s and 70s) and she'd play and we'd sing together. It was great fun. These were all things that she liked doing and I could tell that when she was teaching me to do them. It helped us feel connected.

That's not to say I couldn't be a huge brat. At 6 I tried to "run away from home." my mom took my picture and told me that she would miss me, so she needed a picture (that was brilliant). When I was acting out, like PPs said, I think it was my way of testing my mother's love for me.

Also, maybe you could develop a new, common interest, like make something together. When I was growing up the retired couple next door to us bought a doll house kit and put it together. This was one of those with individual bricks on the chimney, etc. They spent so much time together working on it, and it was really beautiful. It's not that the girls need to stop doing activities, it's that the activities that they could be doing could be ones that you enjoy and can participate with them. Like volunteer at an animal shelter, set up a green house, take a pottery class, or music lessons...

I would also add that since XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, perhaps you could try an approach where they are given a choice of a few options that you have preselected. That way you don't back them into a corner, and they won't be able to complain about not liking an idea, because it is one they themselves have chosen.

big hugs to you,

egoldber

08-28-2009, 03:02 PM

And I'll just reiterate that is doesn't have to be playing toys with them. I hate playing with toys with my kids, so I don't. It can be simple things. Some we enjoy are...

Sitting on the sofa, eating popcorn, watching a movie or a show we all like (e.g., Ace of Cakes or Unwrapped)
Playing a board game
Making homemade pizza where you roll out the dough together.

Find a weekend physical activity you can do together, like simple hikes or bike rides. Make sure it's easy to get to, low key and not stressful.

Just the simple process of doing things together can help start the process of re-connection. She's at the age where she can really do lots of things that are actually interesting for adults to do too. :) I thought it was so much easier to connect and do things together when she turned 5/6.

veronica

08-28-2009, 03:04 PM

First off-Huge hugs to you OP. You and your DH have really explored a lot of options already. I actually liked the new chart recommendation but also agree that before that is implemented, you have to think of a way to engage the girls.

I can feel so much pain in your post and am so upset that you are going through this. As pp's have said, they do love you and need you. Don't give up.

I often times feel that I am not really great at "playing" with DC's in the traditional kid sense but I wanted to offer insight like my quoted post below.

Do things that bond you with DC's that you like too! Believe me, they will feel your interest and excitement and it won't feel forced.

I have a little thing that just kind of developed once with DD. She was brushing her teeth before bed and my eyes were so dry that I had to take my contacts out then and there. She was fascinated and wanted to help. Can I tell you that now we have a "night time process". We brush, take out contacts, apply toner (dry cotton ball for her ;)), eye cream (I pat her with a dry finger ;)), deodorant (I rub the dry applicator on outside of pj's ;)). Then she gets to pick a lipgloss , put some on and take it to bed in a purse with her. It is such a fun bond for us!

Things that sound this silly create a bond. A connection and a sense of belonging to you-that they are helping and that you both work together. Let them make your tea/coffee. I also give DD "massages" during her nightime video by gliding my fingers over her arms-it almost puts her to sleep and she lives for it. What about mani/pedi's? Let them paint your nails and vice versa. Let them look through the supermarket flyer and get your ready to grocery shop-clip coupons, pick meals to make, etc.!

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. It will get better, your commitment and dedication to trying will pay off.

What do they like doing w / you? Can you spend time talking about it?

I mean, it could be brushing their hair, or letting them brush yours. It could be a backrub.

Can you ask them about things they'd like to do as a family? Family game night once a week? Picnic in the living room once a week?

Can you start having a family meeting (make it fun...maybe you do it at a coffee shop and everyone gets a snack to enjoy and you brainstorm and write down things you'd like to do as a family)?

Can you and your DH step back and think about something like a family mission statement? It might help with getting to where you want to go in the long term?

:hug:

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 03:11 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

Melaine

08-28-2009, 03:16 PM

I think you have gotten some great advice and I really hope you are able to make some little steps this week to improve things. I just wanted to mention that I really truly feel you should pursue the possibility of anti-anxiety or anti-depression medication with a different doctor. I try to go natural as much as possible and avoid prescription medications but from the sound of your post, I think you are depressed and/or anxious. When you are down like that, it is very difficult to even get to the point of exercise or taking time for yourself to recover. Sometimes taking some meds can get you to the point of more healthy habits that will also help you feel better all around. I am really glad that I did take Prozac and for me it was only a temporary treatment. Now I am better able to deal with the anxiety through other methods (like exercise, etc.) But I definitely don't regret the medication....

Clarity

08-28-2009, 03:19 PM

:grouphug: and a big :yeahthat: for the great advice here.
I might only suggest that you try to take dd1 out somewhere - to lunch, to the park, someplace she enjoys - just you and she. Your dh can spend one on one time with dd2 while you are with dd1 and then you can switch. Frankly, the plus to this, if you can manage it weekly, is that two days a week, you only have one child to worry about for a few hours. One is a breeze when you've been managing two for awhile.
The other is that having only one with you gives you a chance to really SEE her, without being distracted by your husband or your other child. I took my dd1 out to my hair appt. and then to Panera for dinner. It was the most enjoyable time that I had in a long time. I didn't have to rush anywhere, or scramble about caring for both girls. She loved it and so did I.

I hope that things get better for you, I know you've been under a lot of stress lately. I'll send some positive vibes your way, for good measure.

mommylamb

08-28-2009, 03:28 PM

I don't have much in the way of advice, but just wanted to lend my voice to the "hang in there" contingent.

It does sound as if part of the problem is that you're doing the hard work of disciplining, and DH is getting off without that job. Part of being a parent is disciplining, and he might love being a parent, but if he's not doing the hard stuff, it's easy to see why it comes so easy to him. He needs to share that burden and you need to let it go some. My DH and I struggle with this sometimes because he's a pushover and I think consistency and boundaries are important.

Obviously, spending time together is key, even if it's hard at first. As for rewards, are there special things you can do together as a reward (the zoo, the movies, etc)?

I'm so sorry you're feeling this way. it's a terrible way to live.

larig

08-28-2009, 03:30 PM

[edited out quote from post by OP up-thread (not original post)]

These are great. I taught hs math for 10 years and am currently working on my phd in the learning sciences and they reflect the approach that I found most helpful in working through challenging relationships with children. Putting kids in a situation in which they feel they have some ownership can greatly reduce the amount of conflict. You can totally do this!!

Joolsplus2

08-28-2009, 03:33 PM

Your kiddos sound like me :(. I put my mom through living, breathing hell because I had poor attachment and was a completely out of control tantrumming little pill. At least she got to send me to my dad's for the weekends to get a break, and I was a gem at school. Anyway... her 'abandoning' me at several points (sending me to live with friends while she went to Australia) did do even more damage to my permanent psyche, so if you can find any way in your heart to stick it out, know that it's going to be better in the long run.

More (((HUGS))) to you, this truly is a hard thing to deal with. I wish I had more advice....

mommy111

08-28-2009, 03:34 PM

I am so sorry you're going though this. This may not be advice in fashion these days but it sounds like you're so stressed being their parent, you've stopped being the girls' friend. I would let go of the parent part for a bit. Just sit down with them doing what they're doing and do it with them. Coloring, playing, whatever. So what if you have to order out and if they don't go to bed on time or leave paper towels littered over the floor? They are wonderful, unique individuals just like you and it sounds to me like you all need to be re-introduced to each other to get to know that you not only love each other but also LIKE each other.

Pennylane

08-28-2009, 03:44 PM

Deleted quote per request of OP

Ann

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 03:49 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 03:55 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

Pennylane

08-28-2009, 03:56 PM

I don't think it is so much what you do with them, just do something with them! If it is too stressful to be with them both at the same time, then alternate nights. Take one out for a walk or to get ice cream then swap the next night. Go for a 30 minute bike ride, have your nails done, hit the park for 1/2 an hour.

As far as reading to your older dd, my dd is in 2nd grade and although she is a great reader, she still loves for me to read to her.

You really are going to have to try a more positive attitude with them. I'm sure that they are sensing the way you feel which makes them act out even more.

Ann

brittone2

08-28-2009, 03:57 PM

I think you need to reconnect and find out what THEY want to do. It would be good to open up the lines of communication anyway, kwim?

Step back from the big ideas. If baking is too much, buy the cheapo cookies in a tube (not sure if there are allergy issues for you w/ that) break, bake, and decorate. Buy an allergy friendly cake mix in a box and spend your time decorating it vs. baking, kwim? Make it fun and doable so you'll want to do it with them (if they enjoy baking)

Family art night? Get a big canvas or a drop cloth and everyone work on painting together, or everyone work on their own project in one room next to one another. Soulemama (has a blog and books) has ideas like this that are very cool.

Buy pizza dough already made or buy a Boboli shell or whatever and let everyone top the pizza, or do individual pita pizzas. Put out the sauce, a spoon, and toppings. Pretty low maintenance. Have them do it over newspaper or a drop cloth or whatever if the mess will get to you.

Have a living room picnic and watch a movie. Ask what their favorite character is, what their favorite part is. See if you can build on their interests (even if they bore you to tears) to build connections w/ them about the things they care about.

Play board games.

Play questions games. If you could have one superpower, what would it be? If you could eat a favorite food anytime you wanted, what would it be? If you could wave a magic wand and be a grownup right now, what would you want to do? Learn more about each other. Laugh and enjoy each other.

maybe work on service to others as a family. Pick up an extra bag of groceries (let them pick out what to spend $20 on) and donate to a food pantry. Do holiday shopping together for Toys for Tots or a charity this year, or buy Thanksgiving dinner pantry staples and donate to a food bank.

mamicka

08-28-2009, 03:58 PM

This seems like a huge problem to me. How can you not "do" anything with them? Do you read to them, color, play games? If not, I would say that your dc are acting out from lack of attention by you. I know that my children tend to do that when I am wrapped up in housework or something else. Honestly, it sounds like to me that you need to change your attitude about parenting and try to re-connect with these children.

I apologize if it sounds harsh. I feel really sorry for you and your dc.

Ann

I really hope that you take this as gently as I mean it... but I've got to agree with Ann here. I just don't understand what you are expecting from your girls. How can one have a strong attachment relationship with someone who you don't spend time with? Think of it like the relationship you have with a spouse. If you don't spend time together how strong of a relationship do you have? & that's with 2 adults who can understand what's happening. How do your children know that you love them?

Spend time with your children, no matter the quality of their behavior. Actively love your children, no matter the behavior. You, as the adult, need to not allow yourself to even entertain the thoughts of leaving or giving them up. That just isn't acceptable. Your children's behavior can be changed when there is a strong attachment. There is no hope of changing the bad behavior if there is not a strong attachment.

I know I sound harsh, but I say these things with the best possible intentions.

:hug: I'll be praying for you, Melissa.

mommy111

08-28-2009, 03:59 PM

Have you tried getting down on the floor with them and coloring? And, just a question, why do you just have 10 mins with them at night? What is so pressing that you can't spend 20? Or 30? Asking because I just asked myself the same questions a few days ago and was surprised at the answers.

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 04:02 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

fivi2

08-28-2009, 04:03 PM

Pick up an activity book - there are zillions (check the library).

Art projects/play-doh. There will be messes. Just let it go and clean up at the end. Throw down a sheet so there won't be any permanent damage.

science projects

cooking (or even just decorating cookies that are pre-made)

simple board games - check old threads.

nature walks - meander around the neighborhood or nearby park and pick up fun stuff.

It sounds like you are pretty goal-oriented, which is admirable as an adult. But with kids, it is usually about the process, not the finished product. They will wander aimlessly with no goal. They will lie on the ground and watch ants. They will dig in sand without building something. They will cut a million random shapes out of paper (you should see my living room right now!) We spend hours stringing cheap beads on pipe cleaners and making shapes out of pipe cleaners. (aka "ornaments" - not sure why). They will glue things - glue and glitter is another fun day here.

I would read to them individually for at least 10 minutes each. We read probably around an hour (total - not all at once) most days - some more, a few less.

Good luck! There have also been great ideas up thread.

ThreeofUs

08-28-2009, 04:05 PM

Hugs, Melissa. I have felt this way sometimes with DS1, honestly, and whenever I do I know I have to concentrate on him. Really concentrate on him.

Maybe, as pp's have said, you can do two things that would help:
1. Get yourself some time with a counselor, to help you address the hurts you're feeling in an adult-only environment and help you develop strategies to help yourself in the context of your family.
2. Concentrate the rest of your emotions on your family. Hunker down and really give your family your attention.

I had someone say to me once that if I gave as much scholarly mind to my family as I did to my writing and other work, I wouldn't have had the problems I had. For me, it was true. I thought family was something I could do without much thought, that a good family life, well adjusted kids and a great couple relationship would just come. In fact, I needed to concentrate to make it work. I still do.

I don't know if this helps you, but I offer my experience on the possibility that you might find something that resonates with you.

Mostly, though, I offer deep sympathy. I hope you find ways to make your family life much better.

mommylamb

08-28-2009, 04:07 PM

Maybe you and DH should each put one of the girls to bed at night separately, and then switch the next night. That way you get the 10 minutes of reading time with one child without the distraction of the other one hitting/spitting/misbehaving and spoiling that experience. alone time with parents is nice. I think it's always nice to have someone else read to you, no matter how old you get and no matter how accomplished a reader one becomes. Sometimes I like DH to read to me now. Your DD still needs it too.

maybe you can also split up sometimes on the weekends and do different activities (and of course switch the next weekend). It could be easier to deal with one girl at the zoo/aquarium than it is for both of you to deal with both of them.

It sounds like crafts/cooking are probably not the best options because the mess is stressing you out. I can totally understand. What about outside stuff-- like using chalk on the driveway? Let the rain clean it up for you.

I'm sorry your parents didn't play with you. I imagine it would be hard if you didn't have that roll model to fall back on.

It also sounds like you might need some time to yourself. You sound like you're rushing from work to home to dealing with activities and school. It's a lot. I WOH full time too and it is really really tough. Last year, I took a smaller pay increase so that I could leave at 3 pm on Fridays and have a couple hours to myself while DS is in daycare. It was worth the smaller raise (of course, I seem to get busy at work sometimes and I'm unable to take that time... but I try to).

JustMe

08-28-2009, 04:08 PM

Hugs. I am sorry you are going through this. And I am sorry for all of you, as this can't feel good to anyone. As a mother of a child with attachment issues and as a therapist, IMHO, behavior strategies that work with a more average child do not work on many children with attachment issues. I agree with spending more time doing enjoyable things with them, but sticker and other reward charts, IMHO, don't really change their behaviors. IMHO, these charts can only be useful in helping both you and them to stay focused on when things are going well, but other that that...

I highly recommend Beyond Consequences, Love, and Logic (volumes 1 and 2, but you can start with 1 if you already have too much on your reading list) by Heather Forbes. I dont have the link, but I believe it is available on amazon. They also have a website that you can search for through any search engine. This book has helped me see even clearer why consequences do not work with my daughter, and have actually been harmful to our relatiionship. The focus is on seeing children's acting out as them being dysregulated and helping them to return to a calm place. It is also about being present with our children when they are having difficulty/emotional pain. I think these things are core to children having attachment issues.

mommy111

08-28-2009, 04:10 PM

:hug:
I wouldn't take the daycare supervisor's suggestion too seriously here.
Since it sounds like you are in a little bit of a crisis here, and since you are married to a fab guy who loves the kids ;) I would suggest you pass the cooking/cleaning/disciplining duties to him for a while until you recover, and focus on spending non discipline time with yourself and with the kids. Seriously, be the good guy for a while with DD1 esp. Let daddy be the discipline enforcer. Foget reading. Turn on the TV, barney, wiggles, whatever, and sit eat popcorn with the girls before bed. If daddy comes over and says its time for bed, tun off the TV, good. If he doesn't, let them pass out on the couch with you.

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 04:10 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

mamicka

08-28-2009, 04:11 PM

Stay home. Get on the floor with them & choose a toy. Talk about it. Ask them questions about it. Ask them to show you what it does & then try to do it yourself. It doesn't have to be interesting *to you*. Follow their lead. Give them your undivided attention no.matter.what.

Read to them one at a time if that's easiest, but only if your DH is with the other one. If not, cuddle-up somewhere with one on each side of you, let them hold a toy if it keeps their hands of each other. Don't limit it to 10 minutes, I'd make it at least 30 minutes, at least at first. Don't think about DD1 reading on her own, it doesn't matter. (DS1 has been a good reader for years but bedtime reading is still mommy read-aloud & I expect it to be for a long time.)

Take every opportunity to hug them, kiss them & tell them you love them. This may scare you, but I'd even say to eliminate time-outs for a while. When they misbehave just correct their behavior, listen to what they have to say & hug them, reminding them how to behave properly.

I really feel for you so I hope I'm being helpful. It must be really hard when you don't have your own childhood as an example to follow. I'm sorry about that.

MontrealMum

08-28-2009, 04:11 PM

:grouphug: ..........

SnuggleBuggles

08-28-2009, 04:11 PM

What about one on one outings? How about skipping a day of work/ school to go to one of the zoos or museums? It'll be something they really can cherish and remember that you took time out of busy life to hang out with them.

Bethh

KpbS

08-28-2009, 04:12 PM

Lots of good advice and great insight. For activities I would start small and then build.
How about something spontaneous w/ DD1? Go for ice cream, snow cones, etc. You can be casual about it or make it into a "surprise" trip. Try to relax and just have a good time. Tell DD1 (if she asks) you just want to have some special time/enjoy her company and leave it at that.

At home I would
build a tower out of building bricks/blocks
set up stuffed animals to watch a parade/show that you (and the girls) perform
playdoh
fingerpaint
read 1 book (or more if they are interested at the time)
dress up in silly costumes
blow bubbles in the bathtub (or outside)
put music on and dance or dance silly dances
let them help w/ the laundry (toss into the washer/dryer)
let them sweep or "clean" the kitchen w/ you (dustpan, brooms, wet sponges, etc.)

All of these activities can be short if they lose interest no biggie. Just try a couple of them out and see how it goes. I wouldn't tackle anything that requires a lot of travel (more than 10 of driving) or money or effort on your part. That will only add to the stress. Think simple, cheap fun.

I would start small with baby steps. It will definitely take some time to build your relationship but you can totally do this! Set a goal to interact and play with them w/ at least 2 activities a day in addition to all of the things you do for them like feeding them, brushing teeth, etc.

Also I think that building your relationship w/ DD1 will help your relationship w/ DD2 who is undoubtedly taking cues from DD1.

(((hugs))) You can do it! :grouphug:

brittone2

08-28-2009, 04:12 PM

I highly recommend Beyond Consequences, Love, and Logic (volumes 1 and 2, but you can start with 1 if you already have too much on your reading list) by Heather Forbes.

Here's the link on Amazon...your suggestion was the first I've come across this book but it looks awesome :)

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Consequences-Logic-Control-Attachment-Challenged/product-reviews/0977704009/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_img?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

boolady

08-28-2009, 04:15 PM

Good grief. I can't imagine spending 30 minutes with them. I would seriously lose my mind. You have no idea the amount of shrieking and screaming. I'm not kidding when I say my ears hurt.

If they are actively engaged in doing something fun, such as coloring with you or watching a movie, what are they screaming about? Not being snarky AT ALL, just trying to help figure it out.

mamicka

08-28-2009, 04:16 PM

Foget reading. Turn on the TV, barney, wiggles, whatever, and sit eat popcorn with the girls before bed. If daddy comes over and says its time for bed, tun off the TV, good. If he doesn't, let them pass out on the couch with you.

Great suggestion.

AnnieW625

08-28-2009, 04:19 PM

deleted at the request of the original poster

edurnemk

08-28-2009, 04:24 PM

DS is about to wake from his nap, so I couldn't finsih reading all the responses and maybe I'm being repetitive, but I wanted to say a couple of things.

First, hugs to you! I'm really sorry you're feeling like this.

Second, about the girls:
1. They love you no matter what, but they're frustrated, scared, etc. Just as you feel they don't love you because of their behaviour towards you, they probably feel you don't love them because, as you yourself said, you don't spend any time with them and they can pick up on your feelings. You're stuck in this cycle, and as the adult you have to break it.

2. A child should never feel she has to earn her mother's love. She may have to earn privileges, fun activities with mom, etc. But never her love. Feeling your love is conditional is maybe part of what's making them angry towards you. Set some goals, such as hugging them x times a day, saying you love them at least once a day, hugging them everyday when you get home even if they're being bratty. At first they may reject you since they don't know what's going on, but eventually they'll respond to you.

3. Be consistent! Take it one rule at a time, but once you start enforcing it, never break it. I make a point of reminding myself that all changes take about a month to start working, and sometimes it's less, but if I keep thinking I have to wait a month, it makes it less frustrating the first few times DS resists something.

4. Rituals are super important to provide reassurance. If you set some time to do something everyday with them, even if it's just 10 minutes, you'll all start loking forward to this. It can be reading them a story before bed, giving them a bath (DH always bathes DS, and even if he doesn't get any more time with him, this is their 10-15 minutes, both of them enjoy it a lot). Again, think that it will take about a month for something to become part of their rutine.

5. Finally, I think your DD rebels against getting time with you as a prize, because she never does this, so she doesn't know if it's fun or not. From what I understand by your post the time you spend with her is not fun, pleasurable, etc. So it's no surprise she doesn't think of this as a prize. So just set some time to play with them everyday, before using a chart or anything. She'll change her mind about getting more time with you as a prize one she feels it can be fun and that you'll love her no matter what.

I hope all the advice you're getting here is helpful, and I know your situation is complicated. Many hugs to you and good luck.

mamicka

08-28-2009, 04:25 PM

When we are having marathon tantrums, we give the tantrummer (DS2 90% of the time) the undivided attention of a parent & hug & console & try to figure out what's wrong. IME, the tantrums in older children aren't usually about nonsensical things, but about feeling somehow slighted. Things that can be discussed & straightened out. Since we've been handling the tantrums this way, we've all learned how to handle our anger in a more productive manner, especially DS2.

If you don't have time to spend more quality time with them then you need to reevaluate other things that you are doing. If not brushing their hair will give you an additional 5 minutes of quality time with them, then stop brushing their hair. In the grand scheme, it isn't important.

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 04:26 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

mytwosons

08-28-2009, 04:26 PM

Edited to delete quote from OP per her request.

I just want to be another who recommends some anti-anxiety and/or other meds. When I took prozac for anxiety, it removed the frustration I would have felt in those situations. I could cook with the kids without stressing about the additional mess, etc.

I'm so sorry you and your family are going through this and I really hope you can find a different doctor. I applaud you for being brave enough to post here with your concerns and hope you'll continue to do so.

niccig

08-28-2009, 04:27 PM

What you wrote about not playing with the girls spoke to me, as I too have trouble with playing. I have trouble letting go of all the other things I need to do and just play. And some of the play bores me silly. What I've done is try to do small amounts of time - 5 mins here 10 mins there and don't let yourself be interrupted by the phone/quickly putting laundry on etc. Set a timer and for 5 or 10 mins, join in with what they are doing. And after a little while, you can build up the time. To help with the getting out of bed, we have Special Mummy Time if DS stays in bed. He gets to choose what we do the next day.

I also find it easier to get out of the house and do an activity together, as then I'm not distracted by the house chores - we have a small train ride at a park, going to a park to play (I chase him around the playground) or swimming at the Y. I take him to the pool when it's free swim, and for the time we're in the water, I can't do anything else except be with DS. I stopped our regular swim classes as I didn't think DS was having fun. We do classes over the summer, and then the rest of the year I try to take him to the pool once a week or once every other week and we just play.

I like the suggestions of PP about trying to spend fun family time together that isn't about an activity where you're not involved together. ie. you take the girls, they do the class while you wait.

I think reconnecting and finding fun time with go a long with with your relationship. I think it was in the spirited child book that said you need to spend time and for that 10 mins don't comment on behaviour etc, just be with them. I think the girls will push back, and it won't be easy - they're going to test you and see if you mean what you say/do and they'll be a lot of 'i hate you", "I don't love you" - say "i still love you and I always will". Say "I love you" all the time to them.

I think you can come back - I now have a good relationship with my Dad that we built since my early 20's, so I think anything is possible...and it's worth it. You're worth it, your family is worth it and the girls are worth it.

:hug:

mommy111

08-28-2009, 04:28 PM

FWIW, my parents NEVER played with me. Don't get me wrong, they were GREAT parents, and I envy them their parenting skills.....they were just not the playing type, and esp not my mom. So its OK if you don't know how to play. The critical thing is to spend some no stressed fun time together. Read, movie, ice cream, chasing each other in the garden...anything.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 04:31 PM

(eta: deleted quote at OP's request)

Can you redirect that screaming to something outside? Silly games outside? Whiffle ball in the backyard? Tag?

Do they scream because they are unhappy or do they scream w/ excitement or are they just loud all of the time?

Sometimes the louder they are the more I whisper and they sometimes bring their voices down. We also playfully talk about their voices being a 10, but can you show me a 5? What does a 5 sound like? A 1? etc. And it wouldn't be fun if you didn't let them show you what a 10 does sound like in play sometimes, kwim? But keep it playful.

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 04:35 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

mommy111

08-28-2009, 04:35 PM

Great suggestion.
Thank you :)
An older friend of mine used to do this with her sons and had a great relationship with them. The way she put it, she was so tired with work, it was good to just lie on the couch half asleep and unwind with the kids. Weekend nights when we're overwhelmed, we've done this and its great and low parent effort which *I* need cuz I'm too tired for effort.

niccig

08-28-2009, 04:40 PM

I'll respond to the cooking and the crafts and the mess..let go of the mess. There's going to be a mess. You have to get over the mess. They're young, they can't cook and keep it clean like you and I can. I know this, but I'm the same with DS. He loves to cook with me, and we have a small kitchen, and there's always a mess, and it drives me crazy and then I tell him to stop what he's doing, he gets upset and the vicious cycle starts...

I've started with some easy things. Premade cookie dough...we cut and put on a tray...we're going to do pizza dough now and it's flour, water yeast...and then leave in the bowl to rise. Later today we'll make the pizza.

I try not get upset or complaining about what I'll have to clean up. It's a control issue for DS to do it my way so there's no mess, so I have to let go. Then when we're done, I suggest he goes and does some thing else, and I then clean up.

I also think you need to let go of DD#1 reading. I know a lot of kids going in K that can't read. She is not behind. If you push, you could make her NOT want to read.

I'm going to say something and I hope you won't get offended. I grew up with a domineering father that wanted to control everyone and what we did..it backfired in a major way. We now have a good relationship, but that wasn't until I was in my 20s, and that's because he started seeing a psychologist. You can't control the girls and what they do or don't do. You can try to have them meet your expectations, but you're going to push them away if your expectations are too high/unrealistic. Let them be who they are, and if DD#1 doesn't read until grade 1 - so what? Who does it hurt? Only you are your expectations. I know it's difficult to back off - I'm type A too, but I know the childhood of not meeting too high expectations, and of someone controlling everything about you...and I do not want to DS to experience that childhood.

Today DS and I are having a good day. Yesterday was a scene from my childhood. So, I haven't worked it out 100%, but as long as I have more good days, we're doing OK.

boolady

08-28-2009, 04:42 PM

I've tried whispering. I dunno, it d/n really seem to work.

They scream because they are unhappy. Its not happy screams of delight. They play outside quite a bit, but not usually with me.

Maybe try just going outside with them while they're playing and interacting with them that way. You don't have to be in their faces, just be there and try to talk to them about what they're playing or doing a bit.

Is it possible that they're screaming/acting out at home because they're bored? I know it sounds like they've got plenty of toys, but do they just want someone to give them an idea of something to do? DD can sit there next to her toybox full of toys and get grumpy and flit from thing to thing, but if you suggest to her that she play with a certain thing and sit with her while she plays with it, she will dive right in.

If you feel like you don't know how to play, and I am not a great player myself, what about letting them guide whatever you play? Much to my chagrin, DD can orchestrate what her rubber-dress wearing princess figurines are wearing and orchestrate and direct what my rubber-dress wearing princess figurines are supposed to be doing for an extended period of time. It makes her happy to come up with/imagine the scenarios and I am there to carry out her vision/change the little rubber dresses.

Laurel

08-28-2009, 04:42 PM

There has been a lot of good advice here. I wanted to address the screaming issue.

What happens when they scream? Do they get what they are screaming for? My DD also seems "unhappy" much of the time, whines, screams, etc. We are working hard on helping her have more appropriate reactions to things. We have a zero tolerance policy on screaming/whining, i.e. if she ask for things that way she does not get them until she waits a while and tries asking again in a calm voice. When a child is screaming it is hard to not just do whatever will stop it the fastest, but in the long run it pays off to have a consistent response to this kind of behavior.

mamicka

08-28-2009, 04:43 PM

Comfort them & try to find out why they are unhappy. Just hug & kiss & go over-the-top with the love & comfort until they feel better. Repeat as needed. Coupled with the extra hugs & kisses & "i love you"s they'll be getting, they won't feel the need to throw a fit so often. That's the way it works here.

Melissa, I can't say enough how impressed I am that you are putting yourself out there & are so obviously committed to making this work. I commend you.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 04:47 PM

Is it possible that the screaming (like PPs have suggested) is because they are trying to get your attention? I mean, I think this is one thing I might actually choose to ignore and go about whatever fun activities are planned and assume in a few weeks the screaming might resolve itself, kwim? Once they are getting what they need (time and positive attention from you), it might just resolve. If not, I'd revisit it down the road, but you may see it decrease as they get your time, attention, etc. in other ways. (eta: and with big transitions in dynamics of how a family works, you may see it get worse before it gets better. I'd expect that and try to roll with it)

:hug:

brittone2

08-28-2009, 04:48 PM

alien_host

08-28-2009, 04:51 PM

I really don't have other suggestions to offer, PPs have given a lot of good advice but I did want to offer {hugs}

Hang in there, I hope you can make some of these things work and that the stress of it all will ease up.

hillview

08-28-2009, 04:52 PM

:heartbeat::heartbeat:
First of all HUGS. Seriously. This SUCKS and I am sure it is VERY hurtful. Some of your replies sound almost like you are trying not to invest too much because this is super hurtful and it is easier not to invest and get hurt (did that make sense?).

I know you said you aren't into therapy. Since you posted, I am going to give some advice (and you may not be thrilled). I think you need to find a good therapist for you. You sound like you might actually need a break. I think you should focus on YOU and sort out what YOU want and then figure out how to deal with the kids.

I know that sounds odd since everything here has been about the kids but reading what you are saying (I want out. I don't know what do do with them. I want to be at work etc) I think you need to sort out your needs first. It is really hard to sort out other's needs when yours are not being met. A therapist might say you sound ambivilant about your kids and your husband, it seems like sorting that through would help drive the actual behavior changes with your kids.

I am sorry if this is too in your face -- that is not the intent but to offer a different pov :)

I have ALWAYS enjoyed you on this board and value you a lot.
Hugs
/hillary

Aarohismom

08-28-2009, 05:00 PM

When I want to connect with my dd, I give her a nice relaxing oil massage before bath time or just a feet massage after her dad reads her the book at night. A loving, gentle touch relaxes you and is great for building a connection. Me and my 6 yo even take bubble baths togather. We make it into our special time where we sip on the lemonade or juice while in the tub, dim lights or candles etc. My dd loves this time togather.
Are you and your dh loving and respectful to each other with front of your girls? That can also influence how they behave with you.
:hug:

sdrew99

08-28-2009, 05:01 PM

I am so sorry you are going through this. I can feel the desperation in your posts.

My first thought is that you need to work on YOU first. Your kids cannot feel connected with you unless you are okay with yourself. Have you done counseling for just you before?

When I was a child, my mom was a yeller. I didn't feel especially close to her (I was probably around 5 years old at the time) . She realized this and went to counseling for herself....and she told me that after a few sessions I finally hugged - a good, GENUINE hug and she couldn't believe that I had done that. Kids really, truly pick up on what you are feeling, even if you don't think they are. They are feeding off of YOU, and I'd bet that is why they are acting out. They can tell you are uncomfortable being with them.

So, years later, I'm having issues with my 4, almost 5 year old. Tried lots of things, but then I remembered what my mom had told me and I went to the doctor to talk about my issues with being a parent. I have lots of anxiety at times and started on Lexapro.

I cannot tell you the DIFFERENCE in my child within a month of me starting on Lexapro. *I* was much more relaxed, not as uptight and she could feel it and her behavior issues melted away. Sure, we still have issues, but I am in a much better place to deal with them.

As far as activities...sometimes I will just take my daughter to Starbucks for a coffee and dessert. They don't care what you do with them, they just want your UNDIVIDED attention. Sometimes we just sit there, or people watch or talk about friends at school. She loves having "mommy time" and "daddy time."

I truly feel for you. ((((Hugs)))) Please think about the counseling for yourself.

Elilly

08-28-2009, 05:01 PM

Wow, you sound really busy with tasks etc. I am the same.exact.way. DS has an immune deficiency, autism, food allergies etc. It's a lot easier for me to do "things" rather than play with my kids. I feel justified that I am being a good mom b/c I "provide" for them. Over the past year, I have made a serious effort to enjoy them more. It's been hard for me to let my house be a mess etc but I am a happier person and a better mom.
Maybe take a day off of work and cook dinner for that night and the next, get caught up on tasks etc so that you feel more relaxed and can focus on them. It sounds like they might be crying out for attention from you and will take it any way that they can get it, even if it's discipline.
I say all of this from first hand experience. I can say that it has gotten easier now that they are 4 & 6 and we can play games... chutes and ladders, candy land etc. The structure of the game makes me feel like I'm not entertaining them and makes it less stressful for me.
Hugs.

mamicka

08-28-2009, 05:03 PM

Me and my 6 yo even take bubble baths togather. We make it into our special time where we sip on the lemonade or juice while in the tub, dim lights or candles etc. My dd loves this time togather.
Are you and your dh loving and respectful to each other with front of your girls? That can also influence how they behave with you.
:hug:

Great idea on the bath - too bad we don't have a big soaker tub anymore - that would be fun.

I agree about the last part, too.

Clarity

08-28-2009, 05:15 PM

These are "productions". Don't do productions - the focus is rushing TO the activity and not your child. Do simple things around town. And, I really don't think you should spend time alone with them both right now. Split them up. Take one to the bookstore, browse the children's section, look at magazines, buy her a milk in the cafe. Talk to her.

Take another to the park, pack a picnic, go for a walk. Listen to her.

Keep it simple.

ETA: More ideas.

Have your dh take one of the girls out of the house and you stay home with the other.
Then:
Make cookies together
Paint fingernails together - my 3yr old dd loves to paint my toes and loves her fingers and toes painted too.
Look at her baby book with her.
etc.

Snow mom

08-28-2009, 05:17 PM

Maybe you could have a sticker chart too. It sounds like you need to work on adjusting your views and behavior along with your girls. Although you are a logical adult, the same idea of behavior shaping applies. Set small goals and keep track of your progress. Reward yourself when you are doing well and don't be too hard on yourself when you slip up. Focus on the end goal of your behavior and theirs but accept that there will be a lot of small changes that will go into the big change you'd like to see. We all believe you can do this.

dcmom2b3

08-28-2009, 05:22 PM

You've received wonderful advice up-thread. My (perhaps radical) two cents: it's okay to want to leave. In fact, it's okay to leave, if that's what it comes to.

Not my proudest moment, but in the fallout after Eric's death I was having a hard time with the Bunny, and said to my sister "sometimes I think she'd be better off in foster care." To which my sis replied: "if it gives you the space you need to heal, change, grow, whatever, then yes, that's something to consider."

Her giving me permission, validation, whatever it was, took me away from the edge in that moment. Acknowledging the unthinkable as a possibility, my utter frustration with the circumstances, my life . . . well, it did something for me. Thankfully I haven't gotten close to that edge again.

I don't think that it will for you, either, but if it comes to it, it's okay to leave.

alien_host

08-28-2009, 05:24 PM

I just thought of something. Are your DDs tired when you pick them up? I find around dinner time, my DD is a mess because she is tired from the day and she starts yelling while I'm making dinner etc.

I asked her one day why she was yelling and what was the matter and she said, "I'm just tired!". We try having quiet time in the afternoons to let her wind down. Do they "rest" at school/daycare?

Can one or both "help" you make dinner? My DD loves to help with the salad. I cut the veggies and she puts them in the bowls.

She sets the table and loves it. Could one of the girls do that? Just put out the utensils/napkins/condiments on the table? They could pick out their own plates/cups?

If we have spagetti, I set DD up at the table and she breaks the raw spagetti in half (one or two at a time so it takes a LONG time). She really feels proud when she helps to make meals.

Maybe each child could make a placemat one day for themselves and you and DH (just color on construction paper, use stickers etc) while you make dinner. You could have them laminated.

They could also make placecards, something to make mealtime fun. Maybe they could asign who sits where one night a week (or every night).

These things might "occupy" them as you get dinner ready.

ETA: I thought of game you could do with them. How about "I Spy"? Could they sit in the kitchen with you when you are making dinner and you can play this with items in the kitchen? DD2 might be a bit young but it could be a fun thing to do together.

niccig

08-28-2009, 05:26 PM

This I think is key. And I think it also relates to me. It's difficult to be a parent when you don't have great role models. I know parenting seems instinctive for some people. It's not for me. It's something I have to work at. I've read some books, I read here, I've gone to parenting classes. For me, it comes down to, "Do I want to be a different parent than how I was parented". The answer is a resounding YES. So I just keeping trying a little here and a little there. We are the adults and we can change our behaviours, even the ingrained ones since childhood..

niccig

08-28-2009, 05:31 PM

I like the suggestion of making popcorn and crashing in front of the TV after a long day. BUT, the parents can't read a magazine or be on their phone. It drives me crazy that DH pulls out his iPhone and plays bejeweled when we're watching a DVD with DS. He thinks there's nothing wrong with it. For me, he's not giving DS undivided attention and DS knows that DH is doing something else. I find it rude actually.

TwinFoxes

08-28-2009, 05:38 PM

First and foremost:

Melissa, I can't say enough how impressed I am that you are putting yourself out there & are so obviously committed to making this work. I commend you.
:yeahthat:

I have no BTDT experience, and PP have given what I think is really good advice about taking care of yourself, discipline, etc. I have some suggestions re: play. I think you may be thinking a little too big, zoo, aquarium etc. And some of the play suggestions you've gotten don't sound like you, just from the posts you've made. Here are some options:

Board games - I know you said you don't have time to finish a game, but who says you have to finish? My brother and I used to have MARATHON board games, we'd just put it on the shelf with all the pieces intact, and finish up the next day. Candyland is good game for both of your girls, so is hi-oh cherry-o (I think that's the name.) Trouble is probably more for your older DD (no pun intended.)

Card Games - they're quicker than board games. Old maid (how un-PC!) and go-Fish are easy enough for kiddos. Or even better, "War" the lamest game ever that kids everywhere seem to enjoy.

Do they like puzzles? Again, you don't have to finish it all in one sitting.

Coloring? I used to color with my nephew when he was a child. It was more fun than I remembered, and kind of relaxing.

Do you have a swing set? Pushing them on the swingset for 5 minutes each would be fun, and they'll be outside so any screaming would probably not seem so bad.

This might be out of the question, but if you could hire a housekeeper, the night before she came could be craft/cooking night. That way you wouldn't have to worry about cleaning up the mess. You work really hard, you deserve a housekeeper.

If you want to get out with them, how about giving them each a cheap digital camera and going out to take pictures? You can do it anywhere, in town, out hiking, in your backyard.

Have you thought about buying a Wii? It really is fun for the whole family. The last time DHs family was here, everyone from our niece and nephew to my MIL played.

I think watching videos is a good idea too.

I really hope this has helped. You obviously are trying really hard. Good luck to you.

pinkmomagain

08-28-2009, 05:42 PM

[QUOTE=mamicka;2460763]

Take every opportunity to hug them, kiss them & tell them you love them. This may scare you, but I'd even say to eliminate time-outs for a while. When they misbehave just correct their behavior, listen to what they have to say & hug them, reminding them how to behave properly.

QUOTE]

Fake it till you make it. For a few years I was having a hard time connecting with one of my dds. I finally decided to turn it around. Started being more affectionate, even if I didn't always genuinely feel it. It really helped.

I'm going to go very basic on you, and other may not agree. But as a starting point, is there a show that they like on tv? One where they will stay pretty still/quiet to watch? If so, sit on the couch next to them. Stroke their hair. Put your arm around them. Let them put their heads on your lap. Snuggle. These gestures will connect you guys. Just the fact that Mommy took the time to sit next to them for 20-30 min on the couch says alot. Forget the dishes, etc. Skip the bath. Heck, skip the book!

I'm not a big "playing" mom either....but we talk ALOT and snuggle ALOT. That's how I connect with my kids.

I also want to echo pps who have encouraged you to seek further professional consultation re: anxiety/depression.

((Hugs)) Those girls need you more than anything.

mom2binsd

08-28-2009, 05:43 PM

Melissa,

I've just got home from work and began reading...got through 5 pages, am sure your head is spinning from all the responses, as you can tell folks here really feel for you and want to help (as much as we can via cyberspace) and have been full of great ideas and so I'll add my thoughts. Is there someone close by who you can confide in? Someone there to give you the much needed hugs that you need? If not we're extending our arms to the Pacific coast to you!

I really think you need to look at your overall mental health, using prescription medication is not a sign of the easy way out- I have been taking Lexapro for a few years and without it am not sure my marriage or children would be ok....it has allowed me to deal with very difficult emotional and financial situations. The feelings you describe when thinking about spending time with the girls are very real and are a sure sign of the seriousness of the situation. If you aren't healthy it will impact everyone else. Please take care of yourself.

In the last 6 months I know that your entire family has gone through some rough times, with you bearing the brunt of the responsibilities...baby steps with the girls behaviours, even spending 5 minutes with one going to get an ice cream cone can start the ball rolling. I know you've done counselling but it sounds like the girls might benefit from some family counselling with all of you together...I've never done this but I know that once DH and I can afford we will be going...it's a lot for you to try to do alone and maybe someone else will be a good outside influence.

I'm really hoping that you are able to take what advice you want from all of us and start to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

Take care,

Beth

SASM

08-28-2009, 05:45 PM

Melissa,

No BTDT but I can commiserate to a point. My kids are definitely not a joy at times, especially at the mid to end of the day, disrespectful and love to challenge. As a SAHM, I seriously envy DH for having the opportunity to get out of the house and "away" from the insane chaos. HUGE HUGE HUGE ((((((hugs)))))) to you!! I am going to sit down and read through this thread later tonight, hoping for some help myself. Stay strong, mama. Don't go anywhere. The girls NEED you...now more than ever.

boogiemom

08-28-2009, 05:56 PM

Melissa-

I just want to send hugs your way. You have had so much on your plate lately that I am certainly not surprised that you are just completely exhausted and burned-out. I'm not going to give advice as I think you know what needs to be done. You are an intelligent, capable woman and you can do this. I'm going to wish for peace for you and your girls. I think a peaceful time is key. My DS2 is going thru a yelling, tantrum phase. I simply tell him that he needs to go to his room if he wants to continue those behaviors. If he'd like to get control, then he can join us watching TV or playing with his brother, etc. You simply won't be able to enjoy time with your girls if you aren't able to find peace. They can't enjoy the screaming either. Find what works for your family and be consistent.

Peace and Hugs, mama!

Piglet

08-28-2009, 06:03 PM

Melissa, I also couldn't read without responding. Please accept that if I sound harsh it is because I care. I really don't want to add to your hardship by saying the wrong thing, but I want to be honest.

1) You have a defeatist attitude - the zoo is too far, the cooking is too messy, the kids are bratty, etc. My suggestion is this - make a plan TODAY to spend 10 minutes each day doing something with the kids. Better yet, do it right when you come home. My DCP once told me that when I come home, before even starting supper, I should sit with the kids and reconnect. It seems cuonter-intuitive since you are so stressed to get dinner on the table, but it sets the stage for a better evening. Even if the kids act out or the activity is messy, spend time doing it. Do not resort to yet another timeout that won't be effective. Do not be antagonistic or set high expectations of DDs. Do not expect anything of yourself other than 10 minutes of your time. Imagine you were just hired to be the nanny and mom is in the room. You would come up with something to do with her kids.

2) Come up with a weekend outing for the family (all of you or 1 kid per parent). Go. No matter what the kids behaviour or how far the drive is (within reason). Just go. It can be skiiing in the winter or the playground in the summer. It doesn't have to be a kid activity, just some time to spend together.

3) This is a stretch and I know you are very busy, but is it possible to spread your vacation out a day here or there rather than these big trips? What if you took a day off now and again to catch up on all the things that are stressing you out. Take the girls to daycare and spend the day relaxing or getting some errands/chores done. Cook casseroles and freeze them. Make soup. Whatever you think will decompress you. In my company wehave flex days for just these activities.

4) Get as much help as you can afford. Get a cleaning service, a lawn guy, etc. Get some help with the chores and the housework. It is worth it! If you can't get the help, engage the kids in the same thing you do. Do not scowl at doing the chores. Make it fun. We all fold laundry as a family (rarely, I admit). DS1 recently told me that he realyl likes doing it - we haul up a month's worth of clean laundry and we all dive into the pile. I am on folding duty. DS1 and DS2 are on sorting duty and DS1 likes to roll socks. We all have fun with it - who has the biggest pile? Why is daddy such a bad folder? How did we manage to go this long without running out of socks?

5) Reconnect with your DH once a month - go for a movie or a drink. Even grab a bottle of wine and sit out on your back porch in the summer. Rent a movie if you absolutely can't get out, but find a sitter you trust (and do not be defeatist on this one - you can find a sitter - ask at the daycare). Even if you go out after the girls are in bed, it is worth it.

6) I was an only child and my parents never played with me, so I KNOW how hard it is to play with my kids. I do not begrudge my parents, BTW - they worked 2 FT jobs and had tons of responsibilties. I got that. I knew that being a grown up is hard and not fun and games. I do remember cooking with my mom and helping her with chores. Fortunately for us, DH is very good at playing (he is one of 3 boys and gets how playing works). That is just fine. DH plays with the kids while I cook dinner (if we really can't do the 10 minutes of playing right before supper). The kids still see me in a calm state and DH in a calm state during the evening. They are not aware that I am the non-playing parent, because they make the connection that SOMEONE has to cook, but they also feel that I would play with them if I didn't have the stuff to do. I think as others have said, that kids WANT to see the best in their parents. They want to know that the parents love them unconditionally.

7) I agree on the counsellor rec. You need to get to the root of the problem. The kids are just a byproduct of something bigger. If yuo can figure out what is not working for you right now, the family will be better ni the long run. I think that if you find the right therapist, you will one day say that it was the bets thing you ever did for yourself and your family.

HUGS!

pinkmomagain

08-28-2009, 06:27 PM

I've been thinking, Melissa. I, myself, tend to be a bit high-strung. I find that too much caffiene really makes me irritable and short on patience with the kids -- quick to yell, etc. Especially that afternoon cup. If I just keep it to a morning cup, I'm OK. Also, I nice glass of wine while making dinner makes that witching hour with the kids (who are tired and whiney and hungry) that much more tolerable.

KrisM

08-28-2009, 07:32 PM

You've received tons of great advice. I hope some of it will speak to you and that you'll find what works. I really don't have anything to add, but wanted to add some support. :hug:

MamaKath

08-28-2009, 07:47 PM

(((Melissa))) You have gotten great advice already!!! I will respond to you further later but wanted to tell you I am thinking of you and hang in there!!! :grouphug:

You have gotten tons of book recommendations already and I know that in itself can be overwhelming. This one has helped me with ds when I have felt similarly to you...http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&ISBN=9780060527181&ourl=Sensory-Sensitive-Child%2FKaren-A-Smith

kcandz

08-28-2009, 08:04 PM

You need some relaxation time for just you, so you can have stamina to deal with them. Do you have that now? Also, and I mean this in a constructive way, but reading your comments you have really high expectations for the simplest encounters.

I find it too stressful to take them for walks by myself. That started when DD#2 was a baby and screamed blue murder 24/7 until she got treatment for severe eczema at 5m. Kinda joking, but I think I have PTSD from those 5m still. We do go for walks and bikerides on the weekends all 4 of us. Just try again. Take a walk. You don't have to talk much, or entertain, just look at trees. There is a study about how kids need to reconnect with nature more. I don't have a link handy this minute. We have been working more on that with DC and it is benefiting all of us.

I have tried cooking with them, but its a complete gong show. The daycare supervisor suggested doing that again, but I honestly don't understand how. All they do is make a complete mess, which makes more work for me. Besides, it slows me down and I have limited time.

Here is where I recommend lowering expectations. When baking cookies, DC wants to measure the ingredients. DC is better about it now, but when younger those were not the most accurate measurements, KWIM? And pouring flour through the sifter got all over the counter. We lived. The cookies might have been 15% less yummy than optimal, but we all had a good time. Let the mess happen. Clean it up.

I have tried doing crafts and artsy stuff with them. I find it very frustrating because they make crazy messes and the time always ends in tears.

Again, lower expectations. Art stuff IS messy. That is why there is cleanup after. Are the tears because you are interrupting, trying to control how they do their craft? Or are the tears frustration that the project isn't coming out to DC expectations?

I've tried reading with them and that goes well for about 1 book. Apparently, I have to spend at least 10 minutes a night with them, so do I read them numerous books for the whole 10 minutes? Do I read to them together or separate -- if so, is it 10 minutes each or 5 minutes a piece?? Reading to them together usually results in pinching, hitting, tearing of pages. Again, a gong show. I find reading to DD#1 insanely frustrating b/c IMO, she should be able to read on her own now. I know many of you disagree with that, but that is how I feel. She *should* be reading by now and what the heck is wrong with her that she isn't? That is what goes through my mind when I read to her....

You are bringing your expectations to DC and she can feel that unspoken pressure. Thus her acting out. My DH and I read to each other. We just want to share what we are reading. I would read to each child, singularly, for 10 minutes each.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 08:08 PM

I haven't read this book but (just to be annoying ;) ) I'll add this as a possible book recommendation. DH has read and really likes it. It talks about family goals, family meetings, family mission statement, connecting as a family:
7 Habits of Highly Effective Families:
http://www.amazon.com/Habits-Highly-Effective-Families/dp/0307440850

kboyle

08-28-2009, 08:13 PM

ok, i got to pg 6 before i had to stop reading...here are my suggestions as to what to do... now, i HATE playing with toys with my boys, they like fighting or wrestling their action figures...lol, for me that ends up with my fingers getting bashed by plastic toys...ouch, playing with them is actually painful, lol. dh does more "playtime" with them, but i still do lots of stuff with them day in & day out.

here's some examples of doing stuff, without actually doing stuff:

take your older dd grocery shopping by herself with you if possible...let her pick out the snacks, fruit snacks, popcicle flavor or juice flavor. if she won't sit in the cart and is a runner/wanderer tell her she has no choice but to hold the side of the cart or you're leaving or making her sit, tell her it's a safety issue, YOU don't want her to get hurt, YOU don't want someone to try and walk away with her, YOU don't want her to get lost

if you don't want them to cook WITH you and dd1 colors on her own have her color at the table while you cook... you can ask her what she's drawing, ask her how school went INTERACT WITH YOUR CHILDREN!

so she can color by herself, that doesn't mean you can't color WITH her, draw her pictures to color, write her name and have her trace it, even sitting there with her while she colors while you drink your morning coffee is something.

when they're taking a bath sit in the bathroom with them and ask them how their day is, splash water with them...SO YOU HAVE MORE TO CLEAN UP...IT'S JUST WATER!!!

you want to try cooking again...have them make jello pudding with you...2 steps pour in powdered pudding & milk, stir...easy, if they fight...make 2 boxes! if they don't eat it/like it, who cares? it's like $.75 a box!

if they're watching a tv show that you could care less about sit with them, even if you're reading a book, reading the paper, staring out into space, they know YOU are with THEM!

i get that mess is stressful, i'm the same way, but when you look at the big picture an xtra 15 min of cleaning up isn't worth losing the attachment/love of your children.

work on easy stuff, then move up to actual playing, dressing up dollys, building with legos, setting up littlest pet shop animals doesn't take creativity, it just takes time. if they can't handle playing together with you w/o fighting work on solo time first, then move onto together time.

my parents didnt play with me as a child, i'm an only child and my parents worked, but we still DID stuff. brush your teeth together, make it a group thing, make it funny, be silly, who cares if you don't need to brush yet...it won't hurt! have them help you clean, even if they're not doing anything other than walking around with a damp rag or duster, they think they're doing it WITH you. make the cleaning time fun, not ACTUAL cleaning, help them to learn to clean, instead of with you telling them to pick stuff up, ask them if they'd like to help you...and not with picking up toys, but actual stuff like using the little hand broom & dustpan, or wiping counters & cabinets, it's little stuff.

ETA: BREATHE!!! sit back and watch your kids, enjoy when they are being good, praise them for being good, not always telling them that they're being bad/not listening/fighting.

i am an anal type person, i like stuff done MY WAY, i'll absolutely flip FLIP flip out if stuff isn't the way i like it and it would drive my kids to be bad, me yelling about picking up toys, stop fighting, listen when i ask, made them more angry at me. seriously, relax, when you relax, they relax. i had my doc give me a prescription for an anti-anxiety and it helped alot, i was less likely to flip out or jump down someone's throat for doing something Not my way. now that i know how to calm myself down and not getting worked up i'm happier, kids are happier and i don't need the anti anx pills as much.

Cam&Clay

08-28-2009, 08:23 PM

Like the PP, I stopped after page 6 due to time constraints but wanted to chime in.

I WOTH full-time with two kids also. My husband doesn't live with us during the week. I really understand how you feel when you say you are always "doing" stuff for them but not with them. I feel so often that I am just the cook, maid, taxi, etc.

I am fortunate that I am a school librarian and have my summers with the boys. DS2 obviously takes up a lot of my time. I have a huge age difference between my kids. In the past week or so, I have noticed a huge change in DS1's attitude...very snarky, rude, disprespectful. I promptly sent DS2 to the sitters for the morning one day this week. I woke DS1 up (it was a surprise) and said, "Get dressed. We're going out for breakfast--just you and me! Then we are going school shopping JUST FOR YOU!" He was shocked, amazed, and so grateful. Those 4 hours (and $40 for the sitter) were so worth it. We both felt recharged and connected.

So, my suggestion is divide and conquer. Start with DD1. Surprise her with something you will do together. Your attitude about it will make all the difference.

And here's another story...my mom thought I was getting too close to her when I was little. She was a SAHM and my dad traveled a lot. She told my dad he needed to make a point of spending more quality time with me. So, it started that we would go on "dates" on Saturdays...usually to lunch at weird places that we would never go as a family. When I got older, sometimes, on a weekend, my dad would wake me up at like 11 PM and take me fishing on the piers at the beach. I never felt closer and more special than those nights we spent fishing.

I wish you luck and I completely understand your frustration.

wencit

08-28-2009, 08:25 PM

Aw, Melissa, I couldn't read without replying. :hug: Just wanted to give you some virtual hugs and support. I think you've gotten some great advice, so I don't have anything more to add, but I wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you and hoping you can find a way to work something out.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 08:27 PM

BargainMomforLuke

08-28-2009, 09:01 PM

I don't have time at the moment to read all 11 pages, and this may have already been said, but I really think you are depressed & I definitely think you need to find a new physician who will listen to you before you take drastic measures that will impact your family forever. All moms have moments like this, whether they are fleeting or constant. Feeling this way ALL OF THE TIME is definitely not normal. Have you considered going to a psychiatrist? A psychiatrist can really look at your needs & figure out the best meds for you to be on (especially since you said you are through with counseling).

If you don't do something soon, you are going to do permanent damage to your kids & this will stick with them FOREVER. Please get some help, even if it's not for you but your girls. They deserve to have the best mother they can have & it sounds like right now you are not able to give that to them. My heart breaks for you all & I hope you are able to see the light at the end of the tunnel very soon.

hillview

08-28-2009, 09:02 PM

Activity ideas that might be useful:
- we dance (eg turn on my music and just bounce around) -- we do it several times a week in the evening either before or after dinner. We giggle a lot.
- I prefer taking one child and doing something together. It is SO much easier. So I take DS #1 to get coffee. I take DS #2 to grocery shop. I take the garbage out with DS #1 -- he opens the lid.
- We make cookies together. Sometimes from scratch but if I need a break, I get the ones you just break apart and cook. They have a lot of crap in them but sometimes whatever -- it is the fun of the process.
- We read a book together (just with one of them at a time).
- Go for ice cream. Just one of them. If you whine, complain, act up (my 4 year old) we don't get to go.

HUGS
/hillary

pinkmomagain

08-28-2009, 09:03 PM

Take a walk. You don't have to talk much, or entertain, just look at trees. There is a study about how kids need to reconnect with nature more. I don't have a link handy this minute. We have been working more on that with DC and it is benefiting all of us.

Cheers to this! I just finished this book over the weekend - http://www.amazon.com/Last-Child-Woods-Children-Nature-Deficit/dp/1565123913

I am not typically a granola type person, but I soooooo wish I read this book before my kids were born or at least when they were babies. But I refuse to believe it's too late and am making a concerted effort to get the kids outside. Our walks on the beach are truly bonding/special times....even if we are hardly talking to one another. So simple and yet profound stuff.

ILoveLucy

08-28-2009, 09:19 PM

When my stepdaughter was around the age of your girls, she really enjoyed doing a lemonade stand. Just a card table, make a sign, and make some lemonade mix--very little muss or fuss.

Another totally no-work thing she loved was to "camp out" on the floor in sleeping bags as a family. We would maybe do popcorn or smores or the like, though not even necessarily anything at all, but we'd get out the sleeping bags and just sleep in a group in the family room. No work whatsoever, but being in the dark as she fell asleep was a time we all felt especially relaxed and able to talk. Sometimes she'd build a "tent" of blankets and we'd sleep in that.

How about a picnic in the backyard or on the floor? That was easy and fun and made meals special to her.

Hugs to you.

JTsMom

08-28-2009, 09:21 PM

Melissa, I had to skim the last couple b/c my root canal pain meds are kicking in, and I wanted to respond before I lose all mental power. ;)

First, :grouphug:. You do a lot of stuff for your girls- I'll bet everyone here knows that just from your posts. I think you are a wonderful mother who works really hard, and who cares enough to try to fix things. Having said that, I really do think you need follow the old airline advice about putting on your own O2 mask before helping others. Not to get all armchair psychologist on you, but I think your relationship (or lack thereof ) with your own mother is seriously affecting your relationships with your girls.

I also think you are one of those people who gives and gives and gives until there is nothing left of themselves. Do you ever get time to do what you want to do? Not have to do- want to do. Do you even know what you would do if you could? I could be totally off base here, but I can't remember you ever posting about something like that.

What would happen if you just kind of gave up on changing the girls' behavior for now? I know that probably sounds nuts, but I'm serious. I've noticed that with DS, the more I try to "crack down", the worse things get. If I can just let go for a little while, and really remind myself that I can. not. control everything he does, life gets a lot easier and more enjoyable for both of us. Instead of focusing on behavior, spend alllll of that time to nurturing your relationships. You don't have to take them anywhere, buy them anything, or do any amazing activities fit for Mother Of The Year magazine- just watch TV with them, or go to a drive through for an ice cream. If anything, I'd totally cut out 95% of buying material things and expensive trips/outings for the time being. Focus on simple. Don't force it- just break out some coloring books and say, "If anyone wants to come color with me, they can." You may have to do that 10 times before they'll do it- that's fine. I know you've said they are into princesses. What if you play princess paper dolls, or dress up like princesses? Maybe make cardboard tiaras with gliltter (outside so you don't stress about any messes).

Ignore the screaming if it's just a habit, and comfort if it they are truly angry or sad. Try to keep your expectations really low. If it's not a safety issue, blow it off.

I don't know if any of this is helpful, but please know we're all behind you.

jgenie

08-28-2009, 09:31 PM

:grouphug: You've gotten great advice already - just wanted to add again that YOU.CAN.DO.THIS!! You're family needs you desperately even if they can't tell you. We're all rooting for you - you're a great person just going through a very rough patch. Being a great parent takes time, patience and work just like being great at anything else does. Post as often as you need to and we will do our best to walk you through this. Take it one step at a time - before you know it you'll be running!! :grouphug:

DrSally

08-28-2009, 09:36 PM

Melissa, the situation sounds horrible. I'm very sorry. The main theme that stands out for me in your post (and prev posts) is *attachment*. An insecure (a clinical term) attachment is an *relational* issue. It can be the root cause of a lot of behavioral issues for kids and, in turn, make parents want to turn away from their children. I know you said that further counselling is out of the question, but if this daycare provider's assessment is right (and it really seemed to resonate with you), then the work needs to be on the *relationship* btwn you and DD's, esp. DD1, not focusing on the kid's behavioral problems. Specifically, attachment based therapy that can help you build a secure, positive attachment with DD's.

Attachment patterns begin at birth and are reinforced every day of a person's life. Most times parents perpetuate the same attachment style that they had with their parents and so on. Sometimes, the "fit" between the parent's personality and the child's isn't good, and if the parent doesn't adjust (b/c the child is too young to do so), the attachment suffers. The fact that they are not like this (and I believe you as to how bad it is) in all settings is a good sign, IMO. Just my 2cents, but this is what I would focus on.

sste

08-28-2009, 09:44 PM

I empathize - - I find it hard to play with my son and just enjoy the moment or be silly. It does NOT come naturally to all of us.

My first thought was that perhaps BEFORE addressing the discipline issues you need a little break. So, maybe leaving is not a terrible idea, provided you do it very short-term - - as in why don't you see if you can take a weekend away or even a day and overnight and try to recharge before tackling all of this. I remember you mentioning at some point that you never have non-work/non-child time and I think having a little fuel in the tank is necessary for any parent to connect with their DC.

The other thing I find helpful is to sign up for classes with DS - - DS and I always take some weekly parent-child class where we get to play together or work on a project. I am so type-A, such a goal-directed person that I find I sometimes need to create a structured space to enjoy DS. If I am at home, I am trying to multi-task, get one more errand done, check my work email, etc. and I don't engage as well as I should with DS. I know its a bit tougher to find this with older DC, but perhaps there is something out there? Or you could arrange a weekly brunch date or museum outing or something with your DD . . .

ETA: I just saw your post asking for specific suggestions. My suggestion is to start with DD1. If reading nightly is stressing you out then why don't you and DD1 create a story together - - you two can take turns making up the story and if DD1 is into it you can spend some time on the weekends together writing some chapters into the computer and printing out your "book." Also, are there any mother-daughter weekend dance classes or yoga classes - - we have things like that in my area for moms and their school-age DCs. What are your DD1's interests - - let us know, that would help us to come up with ideas.

purpleeyes

08-28-2009, 09:45 PM

First, lots and lots and lots of :hug5:
I think you are really really trying! Counselors, parenting classes, behavior plans. It is clear that you love your kids so so much and really *do* want to make it work.
BUT, I think that YOUR mental health is falling by the wayside. I would HIGHLY recommend finding a new doctor and exploring the possibility of depression/anxiety meds. I know from personal experience that being depression STOPS you from being about to get things done, to think of new ideas, to follow through on tasks, and I believe that this may be why 'playing' with the girls, or trying to figure out an activity or even implementing the behavior plan may be so overwhelming to you.
Please, please, look into a different counselor. You don't have to have 'clinical' depression to benefit from meds, trust me!

GOOD LUCK. You are a GREAT mom, if you weren't you wouldn't care.

amandabea

08-28-2009, 09:46 PM

You've gotten lots of great advice, so I just want to offer hugs. Don't despair. It WILL get better

vludmilla

08-28-2009, 09:47 PM

Melissa,

I'm so sorry that you are having such an awful time. I think it is super difficult to be a WOHM who has a high-powered job like you do. I read your posts a lot and I think you are a great mom. You obviously care so much about your girls. You research everything and you give them every last bit of energy and time that you have.

I haven't read all the posts but I do think you've gotten some wonderful advice here and I'll try not to duplicate. I actually don't have much advice, more just some thoughts that have come to my mind as I've read and thought about this a bit.

I recall you mentioning in the past that your own mother was very difficult...I think you may have even compared her to Joan Crawford in Mommy Dearest. Is that right? If I'm wrong or just shouldn't have mentioned it, I hope I didn't offend and I am truly sorry. The reason I even bring this up though is that I think how we were parented as a child has a HUGE influence on how we parent our own children. I know that for me, I have to be very careful about how I parent my DD because I don't want to make the many, many, many mistakes my own mother made with me. I don't think you are acting like your mother but really just wondering if maybe the lack of a good role model/relationship with your own mother is at play here. I can tell you that it is a factor for me in my relationship with my DD. I have to carefully examine my own behavior regularly to make sure that I am not doing as my mother did with me. Anyway, if you think that might be a factor, some personal counseling might help, or maybe reading some good books for yourself might help. For me, Trapped in the Mirror was a good one because my mother is narcissistic, so it may not be right for you. Anyway, I think when we don't have a good relationship with our own mothers we have to really teach ourselves how to have a good relationship with our children because we never learned it. Instead of teaching us how to have a relationship with our children, our mothers taught us how to damage our relationship our children. We need to unlearn that even if we aren't exactly copying our mother's negative behavior entirely.

Also, I just want to comment on your GP who doesn't agree with medication for your "situation". GP's are generally NOT trained at all, forget adequately, to recognize who could benefit from medication for depression or anxiety. I think it could help to consult with a top psychiatrist because there may be medications that could take the "edge off" of things for you and you could use them temporarily, like for several months or a year or two...not necessarily forever, KWIM?

Hugs. I'll be thinking of you.

MontrealMum

08-28-2009, 09:48 PM

I just want to add to my previous post which was hasty since I was running out the door.

You've gotten some great advice from pp, and I've been noting it down as well. I think what you're looking for are tangibles - what to do, specifically.

My DS is younger than your 2, but I will say, I don't always enjoy the "playing" aspect either. For me, a walk is a great respite from having wooden toys lobbed at me :D so, I'd 2nd the advice to give the walk a second chance. I usually just keep up a running commentary on the wildllife, the other people, the vehicles...for us, it's a way to reinforce DS' language skills, but he seems to enjoy it, and he LOVES being outdoors - I'd imagine yours would too.

My mom is an art major, and she used to come up with all sorts of "art" for us to do when I was sick (which was often). This is pre-Michael's. So, she'd cut out the forms for gluing or whatever, prepare all the things, and let me have at it. I'm sure it was messy, and she was a SAHM, so she had more time to deal with that, but if you can afford a cleaning service, I might look into it in order to enable more art projects and cooking.

I think it's very hard to parent if you don't have an effective model from your own childhood. DH and I have a bit of trouble with this, his parents were very serious and no-play from a very early age; still struggling w/ them and their different views. Mine weren't bad on the "being a kid" aspect, but have other problems (my mom, goodness, who can say, and my dad is an alcoholic). Although I will say that my parents managed to make a fairly good model when I was young. So, DH and I have to sort through a lot of things before we decide what works for us, as a family, and we make missteps.

I do know that one of the activities that the two little girls (approx. age of yours) i used to babysit really enjoyed was "cooking". And since I was only in my teens at the time "cooking" involved making Kraft Mac&cheese and Jello or pudding. Doesn't have to be terribly showy. Give them a spoon and a little "responsibility" and it can go a long way. I know, I was only the babysitter, but that's all I've got. They also liked having their hair done (or doing mine - ack!) or playing w/makeup (I know, I'm not going there w/the gender thing).

I also think you might want to check out another doc or meds, though trust me, I know what hoops that's going to involve. I'm facing this myself and it's not a fun task :( I do firmly believe that noone can be an effective parent until they've really addressed their own hurts.

One of the problems we have here too, to a degree, is that DH is the "fun" parent, and I'm the disciplinarian. This does not work well (I imagine, when the kids get older, they "play" this) and it's not fair. Can you have a real heart-to-heart w/DH about being consistent, enforcing/agreeing on rules, and setting some goals?

So sorry you're going throught this, and many (((hugs))) Come here anytime to vent. You're a great mom who does all sorts of things for her kids, and is a fierce fighter. You should be proud of yourself! :hug:

Momof3Labs

08-28-2009, 09:52 PM

:grouphug::grouphug::hug5:

I wanted to comment specifically on the reading issue. DS1 has been reading on his own for 2 years, and can read at a 5th grade level. He still loves when we read to him every night, and always picks books like Go Dog Go, Hop on Pop, Clifford, etc. Easy stuff that he can read to himself in minutes. But IMO it's not about what we are reading, just that we are doing it together, snuggling while we do it. And perhaps he chooses these books because they bring back warm memories of the 100s of times we've read them to him - or perhaps it is because they are on the top of the stack, lol. Books at bedtime are so important to him - for a period, we'd take away books as a consequence for bad behavior around bedtime, but then we realized how much he needed us to read to him at bedtime. It wasn't a reward for good behavior, it was a very fundamental need of his that we had to do our best to meet, come hell or high water.

ohiomom

08-28-2009, 10:06 PM

My heart hurts for you.

All I can say is to hang in there. You are never to old to learn how to love. You are obviously hurting that you don't have the relationships with your family that you want and your guard is way up. Another vote for antidepressant to lower the anxiety/reactionary postures. It's worked wonders for me, so that I can do the hard mental "cleanup" work I need to do. I'm much more patient with my DC as a result of the meds.

Hang on, even if it feels like only a thread. We are all rooting for you!:heartbeat:

justlearning

08-28-2009, 10:09 PM

I know you've gotten lots of good responses already and I haven't read them all but here are two things that work well for me...

(1) Have "pillow talk" time with your daughters, especially the older one. When you're tucking her in for the night, ask if it's OK if you lie next to her and talk. I do this with my sons and they absolutely LOVE that time together. If DH is home, he does it with one boy while I do it with the other and if I'm home alone, I try to stagger their bedtimes so I can do it with both boys. If we end up getting them to bed too late, we don't do it but our boys miss it when that happens.

Here's what I do during that "pillow talk" time. I first ask them if there's anything they'd like to talk about. That gives them the open floor to bring up anything on their mind. If they say no, I ask them about their day at school, or if they had fun when they went somewhere, etc. I just ask good questions and respond to their answers. If they don't feel like answering something, that's fine of course--just go with the flow. Then after asking questions, I again ask them if there's anything they'd like to talk about.

I have found that the bed setting with the light out and a nightlight on is the perfect setting for talking with them. That way they're not running around out of control, that way the other sibling isn't interferring with the conversation, that way they're in a calmer state, and their defenses seem to be down, and that way I'm solely focused on the child without distractions. I usually put my hand on their arm while talking or my arm around them.

I'm not very good at "playing" with my kids during the day or being really creative with them. But my kids know that I love them very much and I have always felt very close to them. I think that the quality time each night (the talks are usually around 5-10 minutes) really helps.

(2) This may not work in your case but here's something that we did last year when our sons were going through a stage of lots of complaining, throwing fits, etc. They were around your daughters' ages so this may work for you. Instead of getting upset and frustrated with them when they were cranky, one day I started labeling that behavior as "Mr. Cranky." So if DS was throwing a fit about something (without a valid reason), I'd say, "Oh, no--how did Mr. Cranky get in our house?" Then I'd turn to his brother and say "Did you let Mr. Cranky in? He's not supposed to get in our house!" What would happen is that the cranky son would then start laughing. We'd then creatively collaborate on where Mr. Cranky should be (e.g., he can stay in the garbage can outside), etc. and oftentimes DS would even go over, open the garage door, "kick" Mr. Cranky out, then shut it and have a better attitude.

This reframing the behavior as an external bad guy seemed to work really well. It diffused the situation by infusing humor into it, and got the cranky child involved in talking about something else instead of throwing a fit. It also prevented the crankiness from being the source of a power struggle between the child and me.

I was still able to have firm consequences but did it in the following ways--my kids learned that Mr. Cranky doesn't get anything good in our house because we don't want him in our house. So if Mr. Cranky is asking for something (e.g., food, TV, etc.), we remind him that Mr. Cranky only gets to eat grasshoppers, not ice cream, for example. On the other hand, Mr. Happy (my kids came up with that) is treated very well in our home. So, many times my kids would be complaining, crying, etc. and want something and I'd remind them that Mr. Cranky doesn't get that. They'd then quickly wipe their tears, stop claiming and say, "I'm Mr. Happy now!!" I just dished out the consequences in an immediate fashion--only during that specific time frame, not allowing a period of crankiness to be punished later.

Of course, I'm not saying that the only acceptable emotion in our home is being happy. Many times my kids can feel sad, upset, frustrated by something, etc. and I've taught them that it's OK to feel those feelings. And there are times that I can tell that their crankiness is because they're overly tired or something else. In those cases, I won't go the Mr. Cranky route but will instead go up, give them a hug, hold them while saying "DS, you're so tired right now, I can tell that you need some sleep. I know how you feel because I get cranky when I'm tired too. So we're going to be sure to get you to sleep early tonight, but in the meantime just try your hardest to be as nice as you can." And regarding frustration, some parents may disagree with this strategy (even DH doesn't really like it much but goes along with it), but I've told our sons that they can stomp their foot if they're frustrated about something. I did that because before I found that my DS (especially older one) would hit brother, throw something, scream, etc. when really upset. So, I have found that the foot stomping works really well. When he gets mad now, he'll stomp his foot loudly on the floor but not do anything else destructive. I ignore the foot stomping so it usually lasts only a few seconds. It does seem to help him get his anger out, though, and serve as a way to let others know that he's mad. After he's done and seems to be calmer, I'll usually pull him to me to talk over what happened, ask him why he was upset, talk about a solution, etc.

Anyhow, I realize this post is very long but hopefully something in it could be helpful to you. Big hugs going out to you now... By the way, I also highly recommend antidepressants--I think that, along with good sleep, would go a long ways in changing how much things bother you.

DrSally

08-28-2009, 10:09 PM

As far as what to do to spend time "playing" with the girls, what works for me is more of a "mindset" of setting aside everything else and just focusing on DS (or DD). We are so busy getting things done that this actually doesn't happen as much as it should. I try to clear my mind of the laundry, cleaning, dishes, appointments that need to be made, etc. and just focus on the kids. With DS, it's whatever he wants to do, following his lead. It doesn't have to be a big deal trip to the zoo or museum. In fact, quiet time, just reading, playing a simple game (I spy) or coloring/cutting is better for together time. Just engaging him wo/distraction is the key. I need to consciously tell myself that if any baking/cooking is going to take 2x as long and make more of a mess, and that's ok, b/c it's more about the experience. Not really attempting to get something done in a specific time frame is my gift to our relationship, KWIM? Like PP mentioned, being task focused is great at work, but detracts from "quality" time and being really present with our children. Bottom line, it's not so much "what" you do with them as "how" you go about doing it, KWIM? Also, it's very helpful to me to have just one on one time with each child at bedtime. When DH isn't home, I put the baby to bed first, so I can have uninterrupted, quiet time with DS. Or, when she was younger, I put her back to bed when she woke up at 6:30am for one more hour so I could have 30 min of quiet time with DS when he woke up in the morning. It helped a lot.

Indianamom2

08-28-2009, 10:10 PM

Reading back through the last few pages-

the reading thing...that sounds like a lot of pressure IMO. There is nothing at all saying there is anything at all wrong w/ a 5 year old not reading. Pathologizing it isn't going to help you or your DD, and it isn't going to help your relationship. Our kids can feel our worries and insecurities, kwim? Seriously, I understand your feelings are your feelings, but there is nothing wrong with a 5 year old not reading. I think the fact that it is affecting your relationship is not a good sign (and you are saying you don't enjoy reading to her as a result of your worries). To me, that is a sign that you need to reframe your expectations...when her not reading (very normal!) is getting in the way of your enjoyment of reading together and your relationship w/ her (critical and necessary)...I don't think that's healthy for either of you :hug:

Along the line of expectations, you've mentioned all of the activities your family engages in regularly. It is a lot. I know you feel you don't do much in comparison to your friends/peers, but your kids have historically been very, very busy. And you say that they behave very well in those settings. IMO, that's a lot of time and pressure for kids to be on their *best* behavior, kwim? School/daycare, lessons, German school (I know you stopped, but that's pretty recent IIRC?), etc. That's a lot of IMO not being a kid, and not having a "safe" place to well...have kid meltdowns and kid experiences, kwim? They hold it together and hold it together for all of those activities...that's a lot of holding it together for young children. I think some of the explosive behavior, the loudness, the acting out might be a result of finally getting a chance to be kids after all of the expectation to hold it together all day long. I say that from a place of caring and trying to help. :grouphug: It isn't uncommon for kids to unload on their parents after holding it together all day in school...it is where they feel safe to finally let loose with all of those bottled up emotions. I think the less free time they have, the more letting loose of emotions you might end up with when they are around you.

Do you guys talk about feelings? Do you make it safe for them to have feelings? To be angry, sad, etc.? I think that is something else to consider if you haven't. You can model appropriate ways to get those feelings out, but it may take time if they haven't had practice with expressing themselves to you. Maybe that isn't a problem in your home, but it is one other thing I'd try to take into consideration. Make sure it is safe for them to feel what they feel, even if it is annoying, uncomfortable, etc. for you. Maybe you guys already do that, but just thought it piggybacked w/ the issue of "holding it together" all day at school and activities.

:yeahthat: I totally agree with the entire above quote.

I'm sure that this is going to come across as harsh, and I don't intend it that way, but I really think you and your family need emergency-type counseling. Not one or two sessions, but ongoing help. You are all in crisis.

You and your DH do not get along and I have no doubt that your girls know this and sense the stress there. They sense your stress when you are around them. They also sense your lack of attachment to them. IMO, it might not be that they aren't attached to you, but rather that YOU are not feeling particularly attached to them. I think that your girls are, quite literally, screaming for your attention. The old adage, "Any attention is better than no attention" probably applies here. They desperately want you to pay attention to them, to be with them, to play with them, to actively love them and they aren't getting that.

When my very strong-willed almost 5 year old starts behaving badly, it is almost always to get my attention. She needs more one on one time with just me. Not with me reading a book in the same room as her, not with me playing on the computer or watching tv, but actively doing something with her...even if that means me sitting on the floor watching her build something with her blocks. Coloring with her is a super easy thing that we can do together and who cares what the picture looks like in the end. It's not about the results...it's about the effort and the time together.

Speaking of coloring, it reminded me that it's the little things you do for your kids that mean the most. When I was in the hospital after DS #2 was born a few weeks ago, DD #1 left some of her coloring books/crayons in my hospital room overnight. I colored her a picture and gave it to her the next day. She was thrilled because she knew that I had thought about her and taken time to do something just for her.

When I was a little girl, both my parents worked full-time. My mom taught, so she was home during the summer, but my dad worked shift work at a manufacturing plant, so his hours were crazy, switching every single week. However, I ALWAYS knew he loved me because he took the time (even when I KNOW he would hae preferred to be sleeping sometimes) to do things with me. It was my "job" to wake him up for dinner on the nights when it worked out. We went to the barbershop to get his haircut together. He took me fishing and out for breakfast when he could. As I got older, we joined a bowling league together. I helped him work on the car or out in his woodworking shop (I'm certain I was absolutely no real help!).

The point is that what I remember the most about that is the time he invested in me, not what we did. It literally didn't matter what activity we were doing (heck, he would take me with him on the weekly trip to take the trash to the dump and I would happily go along!)....it was the time we spent together.

I think you need to decide whether you really want things to change or not. It won't be an over-night thing and there's more to the problem than just the kid's behavior. Your marriage sounds weak at best as well. If you're serious about making a change, it's going to take more than a sticker chart, but I know you know this. I know you can certainly do this and change your family for the better, but I really think you need some consistent outside help in the form of counseling to really get things going in the right direction for your entire family. You, your Dh and your children deserve this.

:hug: Being a parent is so much harder than any of us could have imagined. I'm not picking on you, because I have days when I want to run away...for a while. I have days when I can't take one more minute with my kids, but I have no desire to leave permanently and the fact that you do really worries me. I'm glad you can be honest about it, but you need some help...more than anyone here can give. Please at least try counseling again before making any major decisions that will impact your entire family.

Christina

bubbaray

08-28-2009, 10:12 PM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

DrSally

08-28-2009, 10:15 PM

ITA that the dynamic/tension btwn you and DH could be contributing a great deal to the girl's behavioral difficulties.

alexsmommy

08-28-2009, 10:16 PM

I haven't had time to go through the entire thread, but I did want to chime in with - you are getting a lot of suggestions to "do" things with the girls. I just want to warn you, this will be a BIG learning experience for both of you. You are redefining your relationship and that isn't going to happen in one cookie baking experience. Try to set very realisitic goals and expectations. If they are as out of control as you have described, then plan to do something with just one girl at a time. So for example, if the goal is to make chocolate chip cookies, do it when you have at least 3x the normal amount of time you allot for this. Be prepared for messes, tantrums and DD1 wanting to be in complete control. Don't engage in power struggles, but be prepared for some fit throwing as you ignore her attmepts to take control. So if DD1 wants to break the eggs and she's getting shells everywhere - pick your battle. Just have her break them into a seperate bowl and pick out the shells. No reason for a power struggle here. If she spills the flour because she is dumping it in too fast in spite of your warnings, try to laugh at the silliness and move on without making a big deal. After the cookies are baking say something like "Do you want to clean up the flour or put the dishes in the dishwasher?" When she says, "neither" (which if she's never had to take responsibility she will) then look for natural consequence. In this case I would probably say, "Well, if you don't help clean up, then you can't help eating them when they are warm." She may still refuse but you have built in a consequence you can live with. If you say she can't eat them at all, you now have a power struggle as she begs, whines, spits and throws things until she wears you down and you give her one because you can't live with days of her escalating behaviors. If you have the "warm" caveat, you can tell yourself you can ignore any negative behavior she throws your way for an hour.
I feel so bad for you and so sad that you didn't find a good match in a therapist. This is the type of parent coaching that a good therapist could do with you, helping you set a goal each week, figuring out where the pitfalls might be, where you tend to get stuck, where your DD's get stuck and giving you a safe place to process you sucesses and failures. A therapist just for you to do this could still be a big help. It's different than a therapist for the girls.
It will take many times of interaction before you will start to see some change and you both change your expectations of one another so think baby steps and try to find just one or two positive moments from each try the first few times. Make sure you praise each DD for the positive even if you have to consequence some negatives. So lets say she won't help clean so she doesn't get a cookie right away. That night, don't focus on the negative - say something like, "Mommy really liked how you listened and waited to learn how to turn on the mixer - you did such a good job!"
Oh, and save the "big" (zoo etc) outings for when things are going better. Too many places for something big or small to go wrong and derail you. Keep those inital attempts and time limited (no more than an hour).
I truly hope for the best for you, the girls are young, you can turn this around.

MmeSunny

08-28-2009, 10:21 PM

I don't have any advice for you but I wanted to say thank you for being so open and honest.

In truth, I felt so envious of you from your posts. You seem to have such a wonderful and full life with lovely vacations and activities and career, etc. It seemed so ideal. Maybe I had a tinge of jealousy.

But this has made you real. Everything is not perfect for you or me or anyone. You have made that real for me. Perhaps this doesn't comfort you and this difficult time, but it has made a real difference for me. I am also in a very icky place right now and maybe misery loves company. I don't know. But thank you for being so open and sharing.

brittone2

08-28-2009, 10:24 PM

You are dealing with so much. I hope this thread isn't adding to your stress :hug:

I think you and your DH definitely need to get some sort of couples counseling from what you are describing. Again, your dynamic w/ him sounds like it is clearly impacting you and the girls. :hug5:

In terms of things to do with a 2 year old...don't feel like it has to be a "fantastic idea." Keep your expectations low, low, low...just look to connect. And connecting might not happen in one day, but open the door to it a bit, you know? Don't put pressure on yourself to come up with an amazing idea. Just do something one on one. My two year old loves play doh, puzzles, drawing (eta and swinging on the swing outside..for some reason that's something she loves to do with daddy specifically, probably because he doesn't freak out at her death defying acrobatic leaning backwards while holding on w/ one hand maneuvers LOL). I don't know what your two year old loves, but meet her where she is and join in. Snuggle. Give her a piggy back ride. Have a dance party. Laugh. Kwim? It doesn't have to be an event, because if you exhaust yourself with trying to achieve some amazing earth shattering event or fantastic experience, if it doesn't go well you'll find yourself frustrated. If you make it too complicated, you won't want to do it as often. Kwim? Keep it simple so your stress stays at a more manageable level.

ITA about the importance of you getting time to recharge, but it is so hard to do. If you can do some of it at work that would be great (and still give you family time in the evenings).

:hug:

Clarity

08-28-2009, 10:31 PM

Just wanted to say that my dh and I have both noticed that for some reason, dd1 (3yo) behaves wonderfully when she is out with one or the other of us, but when we come back together as a family, she almost always acts up for a bit. Not sure why, but if yours do this too, they're not alone.
I was going to suggest something simple as taking your dd2 for a walk. I took dd1, she's about 6 months older than your dd2, for a walk around the block the other day. We picked crab apples off the trees, we picked up acorns, we grabbed leaves and talked about what kind of trees they were, about seeds, etc. Then we came home to look in a book to find out what some of the trees were. We both really enjoyed this simple activity.

mamicka

08-28-2009, 10:34 PM

Just stay home & interact with her. Seriously. Don't plan for anything except being with her. The details are irrelevant. Get on her level & hug her when she gets close enough.

DON'T plan to get anything "responsible" done. It's off limits.

MontrealMum

08-28-2009, 10:41 PM

:hug::hug:At this point, what DS (who is newly 2) likes, is one-on-one. Doesn't really matter what you do, don't need big plans. Chalk on the sidewalk, "helping" in the kitchen (and that's the most liberal interpretation of that term; really what that means is allowing him to stand on a chair while I cook or run the Cuisinart), "reading", he also really likes shopping or going to the market because there's so much to see. I just make sure to keep up a running commentary about what we're doing, where we're going etc. (he's always in the stroller, I can't trust him not to bolt otherwise). He is also beginning to like make-believe a bit, and the new game to play is "do-do" (naptime). Blanket, lovey, laying on the floor...this is good for at least an hour. (drives me nuts, but he likes it) What does your DD2 like to play at? At least w/ mine, I just follow his lead at this point. W/your older DD I realize it's a bit different, but w/ your younger one, it might be simpler than you think...at least, it is w/my DS. :hug: He also likes to "help" with the laundry - which means offering the odd hanger for putting things away, but mostly throwing them on the floor. Putting him in the Beco while I vaccuum or dust is also still great fun...

jacksmomtobe

08-28-2009, 11:02 PM

Sorry for all that you are going through. It sounds like your kids are challenging. I think one thing that would help is spending time one on one with DD1. It doesn't have to be anything major just some time where you can interact with her without distractions. I've found now that I have two DS doesn't get as much of me as he should. When he's acting up I've found that if I spend some time just with him doing anything even something simple as playing tic tac toe on a piece of paper makes him behave better. Sometimes the bad behavior is a cry for attention. I tend to get caught up with getting things done around the house, etc so when DD is napping I try to get even more done since DS will play by himself and I don't have to worry about them fighting but I've realized lately that sometimes it just makes sense to let things go a bit (not so much as it drives me crazy) so that I can spend a few minutes with him. I am also the anti messy activity person but there are simple easy things you can do as without creating more mess for yourself. You want to be something you can enjoy too. One thing we've done lately is to play a letter game each day. We just name off words starting with the letter of the day. No mess and it gets us both engaged.

I think as other people mentioned you should pursue therapy for yourself to find ways to make yourself happy.

Hope things get better for you soon!

Tracey

08-28-2009, 11:03 PM

I have only read through half of the posts, so forgive me if I am repeating something someone else has said. First...major hugs to you. Tough situation and a lot of pain in that post. I agree with Beth, work on the relationship and let the charts and behavior stuff go for now. That's all just a symptom of the problem.

I may have the wrong person (I'm not good with remembering which screen name says what), but I believe your Mom died at a young age or you didn't have a mother. If that is right, I think that a lot of people in that position have an extra struggle. There's no model...that sense of panic sets in that you aren't doing this "right" and the fear of failing at something you want so desperately to go well. I think the kids pick up on that fear, but interpret it as rejection. That's something I think a counselor could definately help you with. Not the problems with the kids per se, but the problems with motherhood.

As far as connecting with your kids....the trips to the zoo etc. are great, but not really what you need. Love is built in the little day to day things, not big gestures and outings. I HATE playing with Barbies and little animals, so I don't do that. I spend a ton of time with DD, but not really playing. Try coloring and drawing pictures (gives you a chance to talk and get to know each other without pressure). Also, get her while she's sleepy. Lay down with the girls at bed time with the lights out and talk. DD and I make up stories together. She gives the topic (like tell me a story about a girl and her dog) and I make up the story. Sometimes we switch and she makes up the story. I also scratch her back and talk about her day...her friends, her teacher, whatever. I tell her about my day too. She really likes this when I tell her what I do at work. We also watch Little House on the Prairie together and talk about the characters. I read to her. I wrestle with her and let the "kissy monster" attack her. I bought her a joke book and laugh at all her jokes. We dance together to silly songs. That's the stuff you need. That's connection. You need to come at this with your heart and not special outings, breakfasts, or charts.

Cut yourself some slack. Parenting is a rough gig and we all struggle to find our way.

ETA: Thought of some other things we do...we act out stories. I am the big bad wolf and she is the three pigs or she is the hare and I'm the tortoise. We just act out the parts we remember from the story and do funny voices. We both get a kick out of that. OH OH...I almost forgot my favorite game. We play SPA....this usually involves DD rubbing lotion on my legs and my feet LOL.

jent

08-28-2009, 11:05 PM

I just wanted to add my hugs and PT. I too WOTH FT and I think I know some of what you mean... the weekday is spent in a rush: get everyone ready for work/school, then work (at a busy job at which you are never done), rush home, prepare dinner when DD is tired and wound up from a busy day and screaming for attention, then after DD is in bed clean up & prepare for the next day of craziness, if you're not too exhausted. Weekends are for chores and errands. Play? What's that? When I let the chores/errands go a bit we have great weekends, and I'm realizing I need to outsource (ie, hire a cleaner) as much as possible.

I've read before that when children are with a DCP they often don't express their negative emotions, then when they see their parent they feel free to let it all out. So when DD is particularly negative in the evening I try to remind myself that it's because she feels comfortable with me. (I can see you reacting sarcastically "oh, well then, they feel REALLY comfortable", but at least take heart that this is maybe a part of what is going on.)

ITA with looking into treatment with anxiety/depression. Don't be discouraged with your primary care doctor; find a new one if you can. Unfortunately primary care training does not really teach prescribing of psych meds and so many PCP's feel uncomfortable with them. Find one who can help you.

Finally, hugs again. You have a lot on your plate, and although all the suggestions you have gotten are great, it is a lot to think of at once (spend time with your DD's; spend time for yourself; find a counselor; find a new doctor; work on your relationship with your husband; and, finally, read all these books!)

As for tomorow with DD:

Just stay home & interact with her. Seriously. Don't plan for anything except being with her. The details are irrelevant. Get on her level & hug her when she gets close enough.

DON'T plan to get anything "responsible" done. It's off limits.

:yeahthat: Just head to the playroom and let her choose the toys and what to do. Follow her lead. In fact, would be my suggestion for when you have 1:1 time with either girl-- let them tell YOU what to do.

Clarity

08-28-2009, 11:10 PM

I tell her about my day too. She really likes this when I tell her what I do at work.

My dd1 loves this too. I'll occasionally lay in bed with her and tell her in simple terms about my day, i.e. I went to work, answered the phone, had a meeting, saw Z's mommy at lunch, etc. She loves it. I also discover more about HER day because she remembers things/shares things that happened in her day too.

KrisM

08-28-2009, 11:11 PM

I agree. You don't need a fantastic idea for a 2 year old. But, some things mine liked were just for fun baths, swinging at the park, walking, playdough, helping make pizza.

maestramommy

08-28-2009, 11:18 PM

Okay, your kids are almost similar in age to mine, so take what I suggest with a grain of salt. In regards to the cooking thing, I really had to let go of my way of doing things: quick, easy, and tidy. I've only made two things with Dora. Banana bread and pizza. With the B Bread, I measure everything out, and she gets to pour it into the mixing bowl. Then we take turns stirring and I pour into the pan and put into the oven. With pizza, I get the dough ready, and put out the toppings. She helps me put them on.

With both foods it takes 2-3 times as long as it would for me to do it myself, but I went in expecting that so I wasn't seething with impatience inside. I find that when I go in with my own expectations, frustration can really mount quickly, which changes my voice, my language, and whole posture. Even though I control myself, inside I can be a mess. When I cook with Dora, it's really about her. Even though I'm guiding her so we can get something edible in the end:p, she sets the pace.

As for reading. Well Dora's 1.5 years younger, so obviously she doesn't read for herself yet. But she LOVES to read. It's partly her, but also partly because that's all we did together her first year. I couldn't figure out how to play with her, but I could read to her (I love reading myself). Now Arwyn also loves to read, but in a different way, more like the typical toddler. But that is our "together" activity at home. My SIL's Dh read the entire HP series to their girls, even though by that time they could've just as easily read the books themselves. Reading to your DD1 is about enjoying a book together, not whether or not she can read the book herself. I say this knowing how toddlers and preschoolers love to read the same silly book about X 1000 times.

With Laurel being born this summer, we don't get out much, certainly not since all my parental help went home:p But today I had to clean house because SIL's family is coming to visit tomorrow for the weekend. Dora saw me cleaning the stairs with a cloth and spray bottle, and she wanted to do it too. So I gave her a rag and asked her to clean X spot. When we got to the bathroom, I let her clean the toilet cover for 5 minutes, so I could clean the sink. Then we went to the kitchen and I let her spray the hell out of the cabinets, and dribble all over the floor underneath so I could go back upstairs and scrub the toilet. She LOVED it, and was very careful to wipe the floor afterwards. She was pretty pissed when I told her we were done cleaning:hysterical: That is what we did together this today.

Do you see where I'm going with this? An activity doesn't have to be something special. The fact that you do it together is special.

KrisM

08-28-2009, 11:35 PM

Melinda's post reminded me of some things for cooking.

I use those little Pyrex bowls to put the spices, etc in and the kid can dump it in the bowl.

I also have a big, maybe 4 cup, measuring cup that has the lines on the inside on an angle so you can see it from the top. We make instant pudding and they can help pour the milk into that and see when it gets to 2 cups.

For pizza, we make 3 - one for the family and 1 for DD and 1 for DS1. They roll their own. I put the shredded cheese in a bowl and they can spread it around, or heap it up.

It does take longer, but they do have fun.

C99

08-28-2009, 11:43 PM

Don't get me wrong, I spend insane amounts of time doing stuff FOR them.

Maybe that is the problem? My kids don't appreciate the things I do *for* them - cooking, laundry, shopping for their clothes, etc. They can't; they are only 2, 4, and 6. Seriously, it took until I became a mother myself for me to really, truly appreciate all the things my parents did *for* me.

My own kids know that I do things *for* them because I love them and I care about them, but they can't *appreciate* them. But they can and do appreciate the things that I do *with* them, that engage them. They can appreciate me taking the time every day to read them books before bed, giving them a hug when I walk past them at some random time of day, letting them spill flour all over the counter when we make cookies together. They can appreciate me taking them to a museum after they asked to go or setting up a playdate with a friend. My middle child can appreciate it when I take her and her brother for a run around the block before bedtime, as we did tonight, or when I answer 8 million questions ad nauseum whenever we are in the car together. One of her favorite things to do is when I take her (alone) to get her nails painted and then we go to the grocery store and she gets to bag the groceries - it's not really all that exciting, but she loves helping me and gets to spend time with me. My oldest child appreciates when I let him stay up late so we can play a board game together. The youngest is happy when I set up a train track for him, and loves helping me shop.

My point is really that none of these things are complicated or expensive. They're really just quality/quantity time with my kids. And I have 3 and they are all still home for the summer, so I totally get high decibel levels - they like to wind each other up and sometimes *I* lose my patience and scream the loudest of all.

---
I'm about to go back to work after 6 years of working only part-time. My new office is across the street from Nordstrom and I'm worried that I'll be tempted to spend $$ there because now "we can afford it." DH's reaction to that was that I need to be an adult and accept the responsibility of delayed gratification. He's right, of course, although it was hard for me to hear. I think the same can be said of your situation. Of course you are an adult. But as the parent of children w/ whom you have a broken relationship, you need to put aside your own feelings and resentments and work on repairing that relationship with your children and not expect them to appreciate you as the mom. Because they're kids and they probably won't.

kijip

08-29-2009, 12:11 AM

I get the distinct impression that your children are getting a lot of material needs and wants met and then some. But none of that matters if they are not getting their emotional needs/attachment needs met. I would look at any way possible to change your lifestyle/daily routine so that they have even just a little more time with you daily. Is there a way to go to work earlier so you can get home earlier and have more time with them after school/early evening? Taking a 1/2 day off a week? Letting them go to bed later and wake up RIGHT before school (just put them in the car with breakfast)? Just brainstorming, obviously you know what you can or can not do. You need to carve out the room to nourish them emotionally and not material-wise. And finding that time involves making choices. My older son goes to bed closer to 9 and we get him up a little after 8AM. When he needed to be somewhere by 8, we dressed him in his sleep and put him in the car and he woke up there. But it gave us, at the time both working (and my husband studying) to have a nice night with T at home.

This is not something you can buy with trips to the zoo or fun activities, it's just something you do in your house, in your yard. No need to play...just be with them.

Also I would take a long and hard look at if you can be healthy in this situation and what being in a marriage that is not connected or loving is doing to you, your husband and by extension your girls. I am not saying divorce or leave but you need to try to recconnect with your husband and see where you can go from there. You have mentioned here never using help at home with the kids/a babysitter to be with your husband. I think it is time to lower your expectations about doing it all yourself and hire as much help as you can afford, even buying pre-made chef dinners or whatever for a while, to maximize family time. Hire a cleaner to do the dishes if that is what you need. Get a sitter and spend time with your spouse. Reduce spending on toys, clothes, vacations if that is where you can find the money to get help.

Lots of hugs, I can't imagine dealing with all this. You are a strong person to be able to address the issue now.

Also, I would suggest looking into low dose medication at least for a bit and see if that helps. I was very anti medication but the months I needed them, I needed them (weaning off now). It does not have to be permanent, you might be surprised how much it helps. ETA: I get that you are anti-medication, which is fine. But unless you did try it, you don't know that it won't work, just that you are unwilling to try it.

randomkid

08-29-2009, 01:23 AM

I tried to scan through the 15! pages here so I don't repeat a lot. I do agree with many of the PPs views and suggestions. I only saw a hint toward what I've been thinking while reading this. I know you said that you have been to counseling, but what about your DDs? I honestly believe there is real merit in getting the kids to a counselor who can figure out why your kids are so upset all the time. Honestly, if you are stressed and uptight, they will be as well. If you are screaming and yelling at them, then they are going to scream and yell. This is the model you've given them in how to deal with stress. You will have to get control of yourself before you can help your DDs get control of themselves. Yelling doesn't work, which you probably know.

I know it's hard, but you have to let go of some things in order to make this work. Kids make messes, that's what they do, but you can't be on them about it and expect them to enjoy what they are doing.

If spending 10 minutes at a time with your DDs is overwhelming to you, then start with whatever you can handle - 3,4 or 5 minutes, then work up to more. Honestly, if just thinking about spending 10 whole minutes with them stresses you out, actually forcing yourself to do that will not be enjoyable to any of you. Instead, do what you feel more comfortable with. If they can go 4 - 5 minutes without screaming, then spend those 4 -5 minutes doing something nice with them (one at a time is probably best). Then, leave the activity before the problems start. Go back later and spend another few minutes. Maybe this will leave them wanting more when the interaction is pleasant, then maybe there will be longer periods of time that are pleasant.

PPs have suggested lots of cuddles, hugs and "I love you"s. If you don't do this already, don't be surprised if there is some resistance from your DDs, esp. DD1. That may be overwhelming to them when they aren't used to it. I would start off a little slower in this area if that is the case. Don't let it hurt your feelings. They are kids, you are the adult. You understand things that they don't, so you have to be the bigger person here. Just know that all these changes could be uncomfortable for your DDs and they will need time to adjust. Don't overwhelm them, but start off with a little at a time.

My youngest stepdaughter didn't really start reading until she was 6yo. I was concerned, but we just kept reading to her. The more we pushed, the worse it got, so we just backed off. When she was 6yo, it seemed like she started reading overnight and I don't mean just simple stuff, but chapter books.

Like a PP mentioned, take some of your vacation time and spend it at home. All the trips seem like avoidance to me. DH has a friend who is unhappy in his marriage and his kids do not listen to him at all. He yells at them all the time over nothing, but the anger he is feeling is really about his marriage and is misdirected toward his kids. They go on a lot of trips. I think they believe it is quality family time when in reality, it is likely a way for them all to be distracted from each other and they can focus on whatever activities they are doing on the trip.

I can tell you this. If there is tension in your home, your DDs' behavior will not change until that is addressed. When DH was married to his XW, my stepdaughters had a lot of tantrums, screaming, etc. that would last for hours. Their Mom yelled a lot and treated DH with no respect at all. He left her and the girls behavior changed for the better (after a lot of work by DH and I). I'm not saying you and your DH should get divorced, but you have to make your relationship better before you can expect your girls to get better.

DH's XW is remarried and has a bad marriage again. She has 2 little ones with this husband. There is so much tension in their household it permeates the place. Whenever I had to go to that house, *I* felt like screaming just being there for a few minutes. I used to tell DH that I could never live in a house like that. Guess what? Her DDs scream ALL.THE.TIME. (by DSD's reports). There just has to be resolution of the relationship problems. It seems to me that your DDs are just reacting to all the stress in you, your life and your family relationship.

Good luck with all of this. At least you are trying to understand it and make it better. Some people live like this and do nothing to make it better, but actually work really hard at making it worse. You are heading in the right direction, but it will be a long road. Don't expect change overnight, but a little at a time. Sending positive thoughts.

HannaAddict

08-29-2009, 01:45 AM

I'm sorry that you are experiencing this and sorry for your girls. You have a very stressful job if your job is anything like my former big law job and my husband's former big law job (both pre-kids). I thought you were a a litigator at a large firm? Partner or associate, both have major stress. You deal with conflict all day, whether you know it or not. You have posted before that you have no babysitters at night, only day care providers during the day and so don't get to spend any adult time just having dinner or a drink without the kids. That is hard!! You are and have been having a hard time with your husband and marriage. You seem desperately unhappy, even in posts that should be about happy things. (You are intelligent, competent, etc. but the unhappiness does come through.) All of these are symptoms of something more than the children being bratty.

I would strongly think about seeing a therapist for you. You, you, you. You need to have some time to vent, to explore what is happening and why in all aspects of your life. If meds might help at all, do it. Things are looking bleak if you have considered leaving your family. All the family counseling in the world won't help if you have issues you need to address. You deserve to be happy, your children deserve to have a mom who is happy and can love them and not view them negatively. It really seems that your children are just channeling all this anger/depression/sadness/control issues and it is amplifying through them. They don't know why they do it, but they do it. I only read a few responses and your original post, but as some of the other said (though I know it is easier said then done), try and relax. Let the kids make a mess doing art or "cooking." It isn't about the finished product, it is just the experience, for example, mine love making a barely edible pizza with a whole can of sliced olives, Trader Joe's pizza dough or Pillsbury and pre-shredded cheese. I have a real dinner but they are in seventh heaven and clean-up isn't that bad.

(FWIW, though my kids aren't as hard behavior wise as you describe your kids being, mine are literally the darlings of preschool and are complimented and called delightful, but they run me ragged! We have talked about how our kids seem to not listen to us but get good reports at preschool. AAHHH! It is frustrating but some of this is normal and you are doing something right since the girls are being great at school!!) My oldest is March 2004 and youngest Sept. 2006, so almost the same age as yours. They both love being read to, short books, long books, chapter books, series, etc. I was an early reader (before K) and always crazily advanced reader, but I loved being read to by my mom and grandparents. Even much older than your little ones, pre-teen in fact. Up through sixth grade, our teacher read aloud to us some chapter book and I remember that part of school vividly. My husband even read to me long before we had kids, I think it was The Young Lions, a story about WWII, so whatever your thoughts on a new K and just five year old being able to read, it still is loving thing to do and something children of many ages enjoy.

But hang in there, look for help for you, get a second opinion (not sure if you doctor is just a GP or OB but didn't sounds like a therapist) and try and carve out some time for you, billable hours be damned.

strollerqueen

08-29-2009, 02:18 AM

Melissa, my advice probably pales in the face of all the experts here, so I will just give you a :hug5:

mamalia

08-29-2009, 02:31 AM

Just wanted to send virtual hugs, offer another suggestion for a low key activity, and hopefully set aside some worries about DD1s reading. 1) HUGS. 2) My mom didn't have a lot of time to spare, but my most memorable moments from childhood were not the big events. One thing she did that really pops out in my mind was her taking us driving in the mountains above where we lived. She would let us navigate her (take a right at this stop sign, etc, etc) and pretend to get lost. Then she would find her way back. I still remember the excitement of it all. 3) I didn't know how to read when I started kindergarten. I didn't even know my alphabets. But by eight I was reading adult novels, and I've done well academically. My mom didn't pressure me. But she did make an effort to read a lot to me. She recently told me that it was often done half asleep and by memory, but she read to me until I could read to her. I also remember one on one time with flash cards when I was five. And she made such a fuss about the first novel that I picked up (entirely on my own whim) I would have done anything to finish it. I think her belief in me, and being unwilling to give up made a difference. So you can (and will!) make a positive impact. HUGS again.

About the flash cards, in case that is time you want to spend with DD. My mom made it into a game. If I got the word right then it went into one pile. If I didn't then it went into the other pile. We kept playing until my pile was biggest because I'm competitive that way. :) With my DD, I have to tweak it a bit (we only do alphabets) because she gets much more frustrated about being wrong, especially if she thinks it means I'm "winning." So I pretend to guess (instead of the letter I guess what the picture on the back is as if I'm telepathic), and pretend to get it wrong sometimes so that she can earn cards in her pile.

One last thing. This sometimes irritates me to no end, but when I'm feeling really sorry for myself my mom will point out other people that have it much harder and still survive, even thrive. She's triumphed over some major setbacks, so it's especially hard to hear because sometimes I just want a pity party. At the same time that "survivor" attitude can snap me out of a funk.

nak now but i've been typing away for some time bc your post really touched me. all the best.

graciebellesmomma

08-29-2009, 02:37 AM

You have some great advice here. I am so sorry that you are feeling such anxiety and other things. I do think that you need some sort of low dose anti anxiety/depressant for a time. You need to slow down and smell the roses with your girls. To get no joy, whatsoever, from them makes me so sad for you. I don't think it's impossible, but I do think that it's going to take some work for you to get to a good place.

Trying to be gentle and supportive here, but some of the comments that you've made about your dh and your girls seem very cold, and unfeeling. Not sure if you are shut down, but from your childhood, I would expect that you are. I think a therapist would be very beneficial for you. You seem short on patience, understanding and tolerance, as well as compassion.

I think the best advice that I have for you is to hug, hug, hug. With each hug, tell them that you love them. Even if you don't feel it, say it. It wil come with time. I can bet that if you keep saying it, they will start feeling it and initiating it on their own. Kids need to hear it, feel it and soak it up. LOVE! If you left, they would miss you. They would be affected in horrible ways. I do think that if you could get away for a night or two, just for you, that would benefit everyone. Try to reconnect with your husband if you can, if not...get that figured out. It's easier to be a single parent then to parent with someone that is parenting "against" you.

I will never forget when my son died and I asked my husband if he thought that my son knew how much I loved him. My husband responded that my son and I told each other that we loved each other more in one day than he and his Mom had in his entire 35 years.
He told me that watching my son and I interact and be loving to each other was an amazing thing and something that he knew nothing of. He is now just the same with our 6 yr old daughter. So full of love that he never knew he had or that he would have been allowed to express.

Words, actions and HUGS are a huge part of our everyday life. I wish that for your girls, for you and for your husband.

strollerqueen

08-29-2009, 02:48 AM

Deleted now

strollerqueen

08-29-2009, 03:04 AM

mommy111

08-29-2009, 04:30 AM

Oh, and I just thought of this...it sounds like you are very rushed from the time you get home until bedtime. You are trying to cram cooking, cleaning up, baths, reading, etc. into too short of a time period. That is a very stressful situation, and is amping them up more. I have a friend who is a lawyer and works long hours. She also has two DD's. She hates to cook, so she takes them out to dinner several times a week. Consequently, her DD's are used to it, and they act like perfect angels when they are out (less so at home certainly.) So, what do you think? Could you start trying that? Since they are so well behaved in public, at least your ears could get a rest from the screaming! Then you can chat casually while you are eating, and they can color, and there's your 10 minutes plus! :yay::thumbsup::cheerleader1::jammin:
:yeahthat:
Sometimes (like 4-5 days a week, what can I say, I'm a single professional mom with long work hours) even the going out is an effort, we just do takeout. My DD LOVES when we order the chicken with broccoli, its special bonding time for her. Or we do takeout pizza and eat it in front of the TV. And if I'm in an expense conscious phase, I stock the frozen organic pizzas from BJs in my freezer, pop em in the oven when I head home from work and they're done by the time we're done with bathroom. Then we pop in a movie, we snuggle on the couch and de-stress. I keep disposable plates and glasses at hand all the time cuz some days you don't have the energy for both kids and dishes and in those situations, the dishwashing gets thrown out.
You know, the single best thing that I did in this situation for me, though, was going single. All the stress with H was driving me and the kids crazy, and when I saw that this was stressing out the kids, that was it for me. Now I worry more about finances, my health, being there for the kids when they're adults etc etc, but they are so much less stressed than when there was a hostile environment at home. Which is not to say you should leave your husband, just that you need to eliminate the stress and bitterness in the relationship, either with counselling or with just deciding that the bitterness will not be in front of the kids.

Meatball Mommie

08-29-2009, 07:08 AM

I hesitate to post since you received SO MUCH advice - what awesome moms we have here on this board!

First, I want to really commend you for posting in the first place. It takes a lot of courage to admit what you did - to yourself and to others. You are very brave and just this act alone shows that you *do* care for and love your children. If you didn't, you wouldn't try so hard to make the situation better!

I am an only child, only grandchild, so I grew up without a lot of other kids around (I had friends of course when I got older). I don't remember my parents playing with me as a child. I played card games with my grandmom but I was much older than your DDs. On a few occasions, I am sure my parents played a board games with me, but honestly that just wasn't their style. I didn't feel slighted then and I don't now either. We did other things together - they took me *everywhere* with them. Just spending time at the grocery store, the bookstore, outside weeding/watering flowers, visiting neighbors/grandparents...I even helped my dad stack wood! I knew my parents wanted to be around me and that they loved me.

I think that your DD (esp the eldest) needs *time* with you. Doesn't matter at all what you do (even let go on the behavior thing for a while...I agree w/ a pp about stopping time outs (scary thought I know) for a bit). Just start taking her with you while you grocery shop every week (only her and maybe tell her that you need help from a "big girl" and that's why it's just you and her, not her younger sister too).

I also believe strongly in the power of human touch. Do you hug them? Just touching your children...sitting side by side, holding hands, putting your arm around them...tells them that you are interested in them and you care about them.

Finally, I really think you need to keep it simple. Everyone has had wonderful suggestions on activities, but I think *planning* something will make it more stressful for you. Buy some playdough and sit at the kitchen table together for a few minutes. When it gets crazy, the playdough gets put away. Sit next to her when she decides to color and grab a coloring book yourself. If she asks why mommy is coloring, just tell her you're relaxing. Don't make a big deal out of any of it. It will take a while, but she'll get used to doing things with you. You don't need to turn into her playmate and play with her all the time either.

Good luck - you are an awesome mom who cares a lot for her children and I wish you luck - there's lots of work on the road ahead!

thomma

08-29-2009, 09:02 AM

Melissa-
I am in awe of your honest post. It shows how much you want to make things better, make changes. You've gotten great advice on the pages before me and I know you said no more counseling/therapy but...
I really think you need to find a good family counselor/therapist. Not only do you have to repair your relationship with your children but with your husband as well. While reading books and carving out time to reconnect with your children is important, I think your going to need more than that.

Both dh and I WOTH so I know how difficult it is to "fit it all in". You need someone to show you the way...someone to get you all on the same page, so to speak. From what you've written about the dynamics of your family, I don't think you can do it by yourselves. If this sounds harsh, I apologize. I wanted to approach your question with the same honesty of your original post.

Good luck-
Kim
ds&dd -6!

Melbel

08-29-2009, 11:00 AM

Melissa,

I have been trying to keep up with this thread, which has not been easy! Based upon the number of thoughtful heartfelt responses, it is clear that your post has really struck a chord with so many of us. My thoughts to add to the mix ...

The foundation
I concur that it would be helpful for you to first start with you (counseling to address your relationship with your own mother, DH, potential depression/anxiety meds, taking time to exercise). I think that individual and couples counseling to address underlying issues impacting your family is critical to your success. It sounds like you are modeling your own mother's detached parenting style which is not working for your DDs. If you can take a weekend or day to recharge alone, by all means DO IT! I also find it very helpful to have date nights with DH, even if it is after the kids are all asleep (if not weekly, than at least every other week). It is much easier to make this happen if you have the sitter scheduled automatically.

As an aside, I actually had never thought of it, but I cannot remember a SINGLE time that my own mother read to me or played games. My parents divorced when I was 4 and my dad was an alcoholic. I am thankful for the advice and resources posted here.

Work/life Balance
I worked FT OTH as an attorney when DS and DD1 were little. My job was requiring 10+ hour days plus many weekends. It was just way too much. I was able to negotiate a part time schedule which helped tremendously. Is there a way to scale back your work responsibilities? Could you take a 1/2 day off a week as vacation to recharge and/or spend more time w/ DDs? I would also consider outsourcing when possible to get help with the housework and laundry, purchase prepackaged meals, order take out. I would also be more willing to just let some things go in order to carve out more down time for the DDs.

Relationship w/ DDs
IME, the kids totally NEED to blow off some steam with parents after being on their best behavior during structured activities (daycare/school/activities). From your prior posts, your kids have extremely long scheduled days IMO. Is there a way to shorten their days at least some of the time (time off from work for you or DH, family)? Have you ever considered hiring a nanny (FT or PT) to allow them more unstructured time in the home? Are your kids hungry when you pick them up? In particular, DD1 does much better after she has had a snack and opportunity to unwind. I bring snacks in the car to get that ball moving more quickly. If you are dreading spending time with them, they absolutely will and do pick up on your stress and anxiety. I loved that you just relaxed with the girls while watching a movie. Low key, low stress bonding. I also think you need to step back from all of the charts/rewards/time outs a bit. It does sound like you are parenting like a lawyer - taking an analytical approach to "solve" a complex case. Parenting is often about feelings and bonding rather than solving a problem. I also think it is critical for you and DH to have a balance in your play/disciplinarian roles.

Activities w/ DDs
Simplify - I agree that it is truly the day to day simple connections that have the most value. Outings are the dessert, not the main course iykwim. Taking the time for hugs, I love yous and snuggling. Some of our best QT with DS and DD1 and the bedtime routine. We read stories, snuggle, say our prayers and have pillow talk. On the reading issue, we continue to read aloud to DS and DD1 even though they can read novels on their own. I have always heard that the best way to teach a child to read is to read to them. To help DD1 learn to read, you may select some super easy books and move your finger along the words as you read them (without any pressure at all for her to read the words). Dick and Jane books were great for my kiddos (super easy and repetitive to build confidence). DD1 loves spa time with mom (painting nails, rubbing lotion, etc.), helping to cook, walks on the beach or building castles, bike rides, dance parties, going to the playground, swimming together, coloring, going out for mani/pedi (our salon has cheap rates for kids and it allows me to enjoy getting mine done too), visiting puppies at a pet store, and especially going out for ice cream as a special treat. For a quick easy game, have you tried UNO or other card games?
Divide and conquer - DS and DD1 behave much better alone and it helps with reconnecting. It sounds like you and DH are working to make this happen more.

You obviously care very much for your girls and want to make things work. Leaving (for more than a short recharge) would only exacerbate your DD1's attachment issues. :hug5: and good luck! We are all routing for you.

psophia17

08-29-2009, 12:31 PM

Hi Melissa,

I've come out of self-imposed exile because of your thread. I have paid attention to everything you've said over the past several years, and I say this with love and compassion:

This can no longer be about "them." This has to be about YOU, and YOU have to make it about you. Until you sort the stresses of your job, your marriage, your parenthood out for yourself, you will not be able to get through this. I think you DCP has some really awesome ideas, but I also think that unless you are able to let go of the need for results, you have no option but to fail.

To what you've said so far - I'd let go of bedtime first. You have until almost 9pm to use the daylight, why are your girls in bed at 7:30 & 8? That's an hour you could just be with them. Go out and look at the sky, watch the clouds, screw the dishes and laundry. Do you have a fenced yard? Take a day off of work (I'm sure you have plenty of holidays stored up you can use), and just BE. Let nothing phase you. Prime them both with the phrase "if you have a reasonable request, the answer will be YES" and wait for a reasonable request. Show your girls that you are theirs - they're not attached because you are not attached.

I have been working FT for almost a year, and on my days with the boys, we just ARE, whether that's me sitting with them watching crap TV or us going for a walk to the park, or having a planned outing somewhere.

If you don't make yourself able to show your girls that YOU are attached to them, they will never be attached to you. They don't call parenting a thankless job for nothing.

Also, don't use the excuse that you've already tried that - you will have to try it a thousand times to show your girls that you mean it. It's going to suck for a long while, but in 20 years when they say to each other "remember when Mom started loving us," in 30 years when they have kids of their own and they say to you "we always thought you didn't love us until...but now we know you loved us from the beginning" it will be worth it.

I will be paying attention, as I go back into exile, for when you post even the most minute of successes, whatever it happens to be, because I know you can do it. I can only hope that you will.

justlearning

08-29-2009, 01:39 PM

Just something else I thought to add...

Would it be possible to have your DH take one of your daughters away overnight to a hotel while you're home alone with the other DD? (With hotwire, hotels can be had for super cheap prices.) And then you could switch daughters on a different weekend.

I think that the quality time one-on-one for more than a day could be really helpful. This weekend DH is off camping with DS1 and I'm home alone with DS2, which made me think of posting this idea. It really is nice to be alone with just one child for a weekend and forced to concentrate on only that kid.

StantonHyde

08-29-2009, 11:48 PM

Melissa:

Adding huge hugs for you!! In a nutshell:

1. Hire out absolutely everything you can--cleaning, cooking (buy premade and heat it up), laundry, order groceries online. etc etc. Take that money that you spend on vacations etc and buy time every day.

2. Therapy for EVERYONE--you, DH, the DDs, your FAMILY. And if DH won't go, then you go. Pay for professional in-home intervention--anyone can have a trained professional (psychologist or SW) come into their home and do in home therapy. There are people who specialize in this. Call a mental health center for ideas.

3. See a psychiatrist about meds--NOT your GP.

4. Reduce your overall stress--spread out the vacation days so you get time to yourself. Split up the kids--one with DH and one with you.

5. Your relationship with your husband needs major work--but you know that.

6. This is going to be a long PROCESS and things will not get better right away.

You are very brave and competent and smart--and you have lots of moms here who like you and respect you. You can do what you need to do to heal your children. You can't be responsible for DH, but you do have the ability to take care of yourself and a great deal of what affects your girls. Good luck!!

Fairy

08-30-2009, 12:08 AM

I've been running, running and have only just gotten to this thread, Melis. I have made it thru three pages of the 16. I will get thru the rest, but I wanted to just send you (((hugs))) for now, as I've got no BTDT advice. I hope by the time I get to the end of page 16 that I see a post that there's a light at the end of your tunnel. And I'll also say this:

Don't leave.
Get the anti-depressants
Apply for a Nanny show
Take it one hour at a time
Come here for support.

-- Hils

Jenny_A

08-30-2009, 12:16 AM

Don't give up! Hang in there! It seems you spend a lot of time on the computer. If you are doing that while the kids are awake, could you spend that time with them instead or, better yet, with your husband?

kijip

08-30-2009, 02:18 AM

1 suggestion: Yoga videos. I do one with T several times a week. Knocks out some exercise time, relaxation time and spending time with kid in one fell swoop. And you don't have to leave the house. Just trying to throw out an easy, positive idea. The Yoga Kids videos are fun.

Piglet

08-30-2009, 10:44 AM

Melissa, I know that everything has been said, but I am still thinking about you this morning. The thought that I woke up with was this - do you have any IRL friends you can talk to, really talk to? Not some random (though well-meaning) internet friends, but real people that know you and know your kids? Is there anyone that you really trust as a confidante? Anyone that is a great parent that you can ask for advice? You don't need Supernanny - you need support day to day!

bubbaray

08-30-2009, 10:51 AM

Deleted because I am feeling personally attacked instead of supported.

bubbaray

08-30-2009, 11:30 AM

I have deleted my OP and replies.

I asked in my OP for people not to quote me as I would likely delete it. If you quoted me, could you please delete my comments? Thanks.

Sillygirl

08-30-2009, 11:34 AM

I have to say this is a bit of a pattern for you - you post at length and quite honestly about some serious problem at home (kids, DH) and people give you tons of suggestions. Most of your replies are then reasons why those suggestions won't work, emphasizing that you've done everything already. Then you get mad and you're done, and maybe yell at some people along the way.

You really do have the ability to be the parent you want to be, since you're here and you care enough to ask, which is more than most. But the anger, loneliness and alienation that shine through your posts so strongly is preventing that from happening. If things really are that bad at home, you should probably take a leave of absence from your job to get your depression treated. You only get one life - I hate to see anyone waste it in a swamp of untreated misery. Things can get better but it is going to take serious work on your part and not a bunch of sticker charts. Like mroe work than you currently put in your job work. Good luck.

mommy111

08-30-2009, 11:37 AM

Wow, 2 12 month maternity leaves would drive me crazy :) My first mat leave was 2 weeks and boy, was I ready to go to work after that! My second one was 2 months but I had family stay with me that time, took the opportunity to visit disney with the older child etc etc so that was just a fun vacation.
Anyhow, sounds to me like you're really sick of the situation and really, really emotionally exhausted. Are you sure its the girls themselves, or is it just your toxic relationship with husband that is making you feel negative towards the girls by extension?
You know, its OK to leave and take some time for yourself to figure things out. Just tell the girls its temporary, mom is not feeling well and needs some time to recuperate like dad did when he was at the hospital. Then take it on from there. Really. Taking time to figure things for yourself while the girls are in loving hands is not abandoning the kids, it will give you some clarity time and also make H appreciate all you do.

wellyes

08-30-2009, 11:42 AM

You're in a very dark place. I'm so sorry. BTDT. Hope things look brighter soon.

niccig

08-30-2009, 12:10 PM

Melissa, lots of :hug:. I hope things get better.

Snow mom

08-30-2009, 12:33 PM

Hugs to you, Melissa. I'm sorry you found the overall tone of this thread to be attacking. I think most people were trying to be supportive but I've certainly seen how these epic threads can wear away at someone who is already in a hard spot. I'm continuing to send you PT that little by little things will improve with your family. I still believe it can happen.

Clarity

08-30-2009, 12:35 PM

I find it irritating that when someone comes to ask for support and help, they find themselves judged. How 'bout we leave our personal observations OUT of it. It's really no ones business how much time someone does or does not spend on here. And, you don't KNOW when and or how much time she actually spends, so making judgemental comments is out of line. She could be doing most of her posting from WORK. You just don't know.

That said, I think Melissa that you have gotten tons of helpful advice from people who care about you. Some are suggesting meds and therapy, that was their honest evaluation. You don't have to use every suggestion.

I hope things get better for you soon.

kristenk

08-30-2009, 01:10 PM

I think the key to *wanting* to spend time with your kids is reducing the screaming. If your DDs scream less, it will be easier to spend time with them without getting frustrated and you'll want to spend more time with them.

Is it possible that they're overtired? I'm guessing the screaming is more due to stress levels in the house, but is it possible that they're tired?

When you (or DH) pick them up from daycare/school, can you have a snack to give them in the car? I know that DD is very affected by low blood sugar and a snack can make her much more pleasant to be around. She definitely gets grumpy well before she actually says that she's hungry, so I need to keep an eye on that.

I've noticed with DD that the big productions (craft projects, trips to the zoo, etc.) can backfire on me. I get stressed that things didn't go as I wanted them to or my plans didn't work out, so I start to feel as if I just shouldn't bother. The truth is that I really need to dial back my expectations. If I don't come up with a big craft project that I envision will be the epitome of family togetherness but, instead, color a picture while DD colors a picture, things go much better.

I really like the idea of engaging your DDs in your own activities. I need to do more of that and I, honestly, need to come up with some of MY OWN activities. I think that my hobbies have dropped out or gone by the wayside since DD was born.

It's hard not to get frustrated when DD is helping with something and it isn't going exactly as planned, but it's something that I really need to do. I also get stressed about clean-up. I need to plan for a big clean-up at the end. If whatever craft/cooking/project is neater than expected, that's great. If not, I've already planned to clean up so it's not that big of a deal.

I hope that something offered as advice in this thread clicks for you. I know that I've gotten some ideas just by reading it. :hug:

neeleymartin

08-30-2009, 01:21 PM

wish i could help you.

read several of the most recent posts, and didn't get to read your original post, only the most recent edit. hang in there.

MamaMolly

08-30-2009, 01:43 PM

:grouphug: hugs, Melissa. I read your OP yesterday on the way out the door and only now just got the chance to log on and respond.

I think anyone would feel overwhelmed at getting 18+ pages of advice, and no matter how gently or lovingly intended just the sheer number of responses would be a lot to take. Not to mention a couple of snarky ones here and there. I think most everyone means well though. Seems to me people here care a LOT about you. You have many, many well thought out responses. Maybe when you've had some space and some time it will be easier to hear the good in what people have had to say.

I'm so sorry you are feeling kicked when down. Lots of hugs and P and PT that you and the girls find your path soon.

HannaAddict

08-30-2009, 02:16 PM

I know you said no to counseling, but what you described was family counseling and I think many of us thought that individiual or more broad based therapy might actually help. I'm sure all of these comments are hard to hear, especially in the state of mind, the dark place you are and have been for quite a long time, but on some level you must want to have input. You were brutally honest in your original posts and follow-ups and it is only fair to expect others on a message board to be honest in return. If it seems unsupportive, well, sometimes the truth hurts. I do hope you can find some hope/help/support in the many posts and maybe some good will come of your cry for help. I am pulling for you and your girls. They are so little, this really isn't their fault and you all deserve to have a more loving, happy, enjoyable relationship. Take care.

jent

08-30-2009, 02:43 PM

Melissa, I'm so sorry you are feeling attacked. I know how it feels to read a reply from a different point of view and be taken a bit aback. You've had 18 pages of replies, so I can only imagine it would be a little rough reading through them all. My take on the general tone though is that everyone is supportive and pulling for you, even if they've said things that are harsh. I actually logged on just now during naptime to see if you had any updates. I've been thinking of you this weekend and was hoping you'd had some positive moments-- IIRC you said you had some alone time with DD2 yesterday.

I was one of the ones who suggested counseling and possibly meds. I say this from experience-- I went through a rough period after DD was born, especially after I went back to work. At the time I didn't think I was depressed and didn't think I needed any help. I didn't exactly feel sad all the time. It was more feeling like I was always on edge, getting easily angry or frustrated, feeling that many things seemed insurmountably difficult (ie, I can't possibly try that, that will never work), etc. Actually, I don't think I really felt "myself" again until a few months ago. I'll always wonder if I would have pulled out from it sooner if I had started meds and maybe found a good counselor, and spared myself and my family a lot of pain. In your OP, I heard an undercurrent that sounded similar to what I was going through and I wanted to reach out and help, the way I wish someone had helped me.

Ceepa

08-30-2009, 02:46 PM

I know this thread didn't go the way that OP wanted but I have found it a valuable reminder to take advantage of time with DC and be more patient with myself as a parent.

Wife_and_mommy

08-30-2009, 03:13 PM

Melissa,

Just wanted to send huge hugs and suggest you ask your church for resources.

I'm so sorry you're having a hard time right now. We're all there at one time or another. :hug::hug::hug:

sste

08-30-2009, 03:45 PM

Oh no, Melissa! It seems like this thread went awry. Your post touches a nerve for all of us - - we have ALL been there. Maybe not for the length of time you are describing or to the degree you are describing, but we have all experienced the thoughts and feelings you describe. And its frightening and perhaps that is why we all rushed in with suggestions and why some of them were worded strongly. We all struggle with the human reaction of distancing ourselves from things that cut close to home, unconciously believing that this may somehow protect us.

I am sure posters meant well and like you and want to support you. You are one of my favorite posters.

ETA: I also think you (and posters on BB) need to pay less attention to your frustrated words at a low point and far more attention to your actions. Nobody takes their 2 & 5 year old on a FREAKING EXTENDED RV trip unless she loves them and is deeply attached. Nobody posts and researches and worries as you do unless she loves her children. I am crediting what you are saying that the relationship needs work - - but that foundation of love and attachment is there.

1964pandora

08-30-2009, 05:06 PM

Yes, oh no, Melissa! I'm so sorry that this thread has hurt your feelings. I am really impressed by your original post. I read all of the posts as an outpouring of caring and support for you, even if some of the posts made you feel bad. I don't think that just ANYONE on the board would get this type of response to a post. It means that many people really like and care for you. I really felt that everyone was trying to help, even if their advice sounded a bit harsh, or worded strongly as stated directly above. Try to concentrate on the fact that people obviously CARE. I mean, some people actually gave this some real time and thought! It was impressive to me. I really hope that when you step back for a minute you won't feel so bad (badly?) about this thread. More importantly, I hope that you are feeling better and I wish the best for you in your situation!

ETA: Even though I post here a lot, I guess I don't really know the players all that well. Maybe some people DID really take a shot at you, and if that's true, I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm sort of clueless when it comes to that sometimes. Anyway, I just added this because I didn't want to deny that some people may have been out of line. I am just a bit clueless when it comes to underlying "issues" on the board.

gatorsmom

08-30-2009, 05:19 PM

Melissa,
So many, many people here have been the beneficiaries of your excellent research and experience. So, it's shocking to me, as it must be to you to see that some posters have not only ripped you a new one when you are CLEARLY feeling very down, but then defended their inconsiderate actions. Not all of us meant to kick you while you are down.

PLEASE, PLEASE, know that if I have hurt you in some way I am truly sorry. I know that the couple of times I took a hit, I didn't want to come back here. I sincerely hope you feel you can come back. You are one of the most helpful people here (and ironically, the harsher posters here are the least helpful. Things that make you go hmmm...)

mamicka

08-30-2009, 07:44 PM

Melissa, I'm so sorry for what you are going through right now. I can hear that you are really hurting from both the past & the present & you're afraid for the future. I'm sorry that some of the posts were hurtful & I hope that I didn't take part in that. I truly meant to be helpful.

I understand how you're feeling right now & I just want to encourage you to talk to somebody - I don't mean counseling - I just mean a friend, anyone who you can totally open-up to so they can love you. I'm not sure if you have someone like that in real life, but if not - if there are any posters here that you connect with, please reach out to them. I know that there are many of them that would gladly be there for you. Please don't just disappear. You don't have to be alone in this. :hug:

brittone2

08-30-2009, 08:55 PM

Melissa-
Not sure if you are still around and reading this, but please know we are all thinking of you.

I know I posted several times to this thread, and I'm sorry if that made you feel overwhelmed or ganged up on in any way.

:grouphug:

You and your family are in my thoughts.

Pennylane

08-30-2009, 09:26 PM

I am so sorry you are feeling attacked. I hope you get everything worked out.

Ann

chinook

08-30-2009, 10:11 PM

cvanbrunt

08-30-2009, 10:13 PM

purpleeyes

08-30-2009, 10:19 PM

Melissa-

I have been thinking of you and I am sending you lots and lots of :22:.

bubbaray

08-30-2009, 10:25 PM

It's very late in the game here, but I've been thinking about this thread all day and wanted to chime in just one thing - you either need a new GP or a referral to a psychiatrist. Your GP is WAY out of line denying you antidepressants, IMHO. Saving it for "extreme cases" - that is absolutely terrible. How many of her patients are suffering needleslly because of HER bias?!

You exhibit so many of the classic signs of depression (feelings of hopelessness and negativity, anxiety, an inability to take pleasure in things) that I think you should absolutely positively be on meds.

There's no shame in it, people need antidepressants like diabetics need insulin. I suspect you would feel very very different after a few weeks on meds. Of course, they won't solve all of the problems in your life, but they will leave you better able to cope with them and maybe able to derive some joy from your life, your kids, and maybe even your DH.

I absolutely 100% disagree with your post. I would never in a million years take psychiatric medication willingly.

I have no idea what my physician says to her other patients. I know what she says TO ME, given my medical history and presentation. I believe my physician made the correct diagnosis and gave me appropriate advice.

Sorry to single out your post, but after EIGHTEEN PAGES of people playing armchair physician, I'm more than a little sick of the theme that my physician is at fault here and she is most definitely NOT out of line. There is nothing wrong with my synapses nor my brain chemistry. There are some cr@ppy facts that I asked for some advice with. Trust me, I will forever regret making my original post. And, I have some serious concerns with the mods now, because I have sent not one but TWO requests that this thread be deleted or locked because I am STILL feeling personally attacked.

Besides, I said either in my OP or a subsequent post that I was not willing to consider meds or further counselling. Both are out. O.U.T. out. Not happening. To harp on meds as a solution for EIGHTEEN PAGES is really not helpful one little bit.

megs4413

08-30-2009, 10:33 PM

I have no practical advice, but wanted to say that I am sorry you're going through this and am praying that things improve very soon.

elliput

08-30-2009, 10:33 PM

stella

08-30-2009, 10:36 PM

sste

08-30-2009, 10:47 PM

Posters, please stop suggesting meds. I know it is coming from very good intentions but if someone has strong sentiments about not going down that path we should respect it.

Melissa, I believe (??) I read that daily exercise has similar improvements for mood to anti-depressants. Also, I believe that cognitive-behavioral therapy focused on retraining your thought patterns & coaching you to behavior change (not psycho-analytic armchair tell me about your childhood therapy) has similar effects to the medication route. I am not clear if counseling being out was psycho-dynamic counseling only or if it is any type of counseling, including CB. I mean no disrespect!

And there are all the wonderful practical suggestions about time with your DDs that you received here.

I think there are many approaches that could work for you - - its just choosing what you think will be best for you and your family.

happymom

08-30-2009, 10:57 PM

I've been following this thread but hadnt actually posted because I didn't think I had anything to add...but now that the thread has taken this direction, I just wanted to offer :hug:. I'm so sorry for what you're going through. It sounds incredibly tough. I wish there was something more constructive that I could offer, but I hope the hugs are a *little* helpful.

kijip

08-30-2009, 10:57 PM

Melissa,

The only things that are going to fix your problems are patience and time with your family. You need to make these a priority. If you are unwilling to to that, it probably is best if you separate yourself from your husband and daughters.

You can take this advice in whatever manner you think it should be, but I am not going to dance around the fact that you are the only one that can fix your problem.

I have to agree. With the possible solutions you have taken off the table Melissa, maybe a seperation is the best thing for you and your family even if just on a trial basis. However IIRC, you have stated that a marriage seperation is also 100% out of the question, off the table. At some point, you have to see that you are taking all of the possible advice (you did ask for advice in the OP) off of the table. That leaves nothing to offer. There have been a lot of suggestions here besides meds and counseling. But you are offended by it all. I am truly sorry things are so hard for you right now. However, like Erica states, you are the only person (along with your spouse) that can fix it.

I really don't think this is going to improve without a radically different approach to your life- schedule, patience, relaxation etc. There is no 1 thing you are going to do in 1 day or 1 week or 1 month that will fix the situation if it is as you describe.

randomkid

08-30-2009, 10:59 PM

I'm sorry you're feeling attacked. It seems to me that you're in a crisis (since you say you don't want to be around the children), and you have received lots of suggestions on ways to approach the situation.

The SSRI class of drugs really do help you cope when tyhings look hopeless. I have been the recipient of their help several times in the last 10 years. Maybe you don't *need* them from a medical perspective, but they sure can help get one out of a hole filled with dread and hopelessness.

Good luck, and I hope you feel better soon.

In reading Melissa's reply above, it sounds like maybe it is not advisable for her to take this class of drugs due to some medical history. Everyone needs to lay off suggesting meds.

Melissa, I'm sorry if my post offended, but I was trying to offer some suggestions to help you spend more time with your DDs and to also be direct with some observations about your OP and other posts I've read about your current situation. I did suggest counseling for your DDs, but maybe I misunderstood your OP as I thought only YOU had been. I don't think that ONLY you can change things. I think your DH has to be on board as well. Sorry if you felt attacked, but I thought (outside of the counseling and med suggestions) that there were a lot of good ideas for you to pick and choose from.

Good luck.

happymom

08-30-2009, 11:00 PM

I have sent not one but TWO requests that this thread be deleted or locked because I am STILL feeling personally attacked.

I don't think Melissa wants any more advice at this point. Until the mods lock or delete this thread, it would probably be best for everyone to NOT post anymore advice.

MommytoEliana

08-30-2009, 11:08 PM

Melissa, I've not added anything earlier because I thought you were getting some great advice and I've not been in your situation or anything close to it. With very few exceptions that could maybe be read the wrong way (especially when feeling sensitive, as I'm sure you must be in this situation), I didn't read any of the responses as being attacking; it seems like people are honestly trying to help and giving you suggestions based on your original post, previous posts, and everyone's own experiences.

With regard to the medications route, you certainly know your own medical history best and know your care provider. However, we know only what you've shown us online. Meds are of great help to many people, and when something has helped someone, it is only natural to want to offer that experience as a suggestion of something that might help you. I don't think anyone meant to disrespect your stance against not wanting to do meds.

I don't know of anything helpful that I can add, except *hugs* and I'm thinking of you and praying for you and your family that you'll be able to work through this in the way that is best for all of you. No matter what path you choose it won't be easy. But you've proven yourself to be a strong woman, and I hope that with time things will get better.

Take care, and let us know how we can help you.

C99

08-30-2009, 11:15 PM

I don't think Melissa wants any more advice at this point. Until the mods lock or delete this thread, it would probably be best for everyone to NOT post anymore advice.

I don't see that happening unless someone starts baiting and/or name-calling.

MNmomtobe

08-30-2009, 11:32 PM

Melissa,

No advice but just wanted to say I'm so sorry that you are going through such a hard time.
(((HUGS)))

mamicka

08-30-2009, 11:33 PM

I don't see that happening unless someone starts baiting and/or name-calling.

OK - someone call me a nasty name. Make it a good one. Seriously.

fortato

08-30-2009, 11:38 PM

Besides, I said either in my OP or a subsequent post that I was not willing to consider meds or further counselling. Both are out. O.U.T. out. Not happening. To harp on meds as a solution for EIGHTEEN PAGES is really not helpful one little bit.

What exactly are you looking for from us here then? We offer support, and give our suggestions... a lot of us aren't going to read 18 pages of things, but a lot of us have followed your posts, and have an idea what you are going through, and we want to help. Sorry if you're taking it as personal attacks. Maybe you should just walk away from the board for a little while... if the thread won't get locked, maybe you should just stop reading it.

ett

08-30-2009, 11:46 PM

Melissa - Just sending you hugs and letting you know that I will be praying for you and your family. :hug: I'm so sorry that things are so difficult for you right now and I hope you will find a way to start working things out.

strollerqueen

08-31-2009, 02:10 AM

Just want to say that if I said anything that hurts your feelings, I'm sorry.

chinook

08-31-2009, 09:55 AM

Melissa,

I am sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention. And no, I am not a physician. I do not, however, feel that I have "attacked" you, just because you don't agree with advice doesn't make it an attack.

My heart is aching for you, and my advice is heartfelt and comes from experience.

I hope for nothing but the best for you and your girls.

Fairy

08-31-2009, 04:31 PM

Melissa, Honey. It's taken me three days, but I've now made it thru all 21 of these pages. I have absolutely nothing for you that hasn't already been said far better than I would have said it. I am so sorry if I upset you with suggesting the anti-depressants, I didn't know when I was on page 3 that it was truly not an option for you for whatever reason. So, please know I'm sorry for that.

I want so much to help you. I want to wave a wand for you or hit the reset button or make it all better. I'm feeling so terrible for you. I agree so much with many of the wonderful people on this board who have shown support; too many to list. So, I will just say that, Melissa, I care about you. You're a faceless person on the other side of my computer screen, but like many an online community of people, I feel a real, tangible care for you, and I want your situation to get better. I'm thinking of you.

Love, Hilary :hug:

AnnieW625

08-31-2009, 09:45 PM

stella

08-31-2009, 10:47 PM

In reading Melissa's reply above, it sounds like maybe it is not advisable for her to take this class of drugs due to some medical history. Everyone needs to lay off suggesting meds.

Melissa, I'm sorry if my post offended, but I was trying to offer some suggestions to help you spend more time with your DDs and to also be direct with some observations about your OP and other posts I've read about your current situation. I did suggest counseling for your DDs, but maybe I misunderstood your OP as I thought only YOU had been. I don't think that ONLY you can change things. I think your DH has to be on board as well. Sorry if you felt attacked, but I thought (outside of the counseling and med suggestions) that there were a lot of good ideas for you to pick and choose from.

Good luck.

I wasn't so much suggesting them as a great option for her as much as I was offering what they did for me in a trying time. Obviously I am not familiar with everyone's personal medical history, and I understood that her doctor doesn't typically prescribe them.
And when someone says they are "at a complete loss", I don't see what's wrong with anyone giving advice, making suggestions, or just piping up to offer their own experiences. I would assume that posting on a public message board makes one's situation fair game for comment - even if you don't like the suggestions.

I hope that the OP can find some relief because home sounds like an awful and dreaded place for her lately. Nobody should have to endure that sort of dynamic - children or parents, and I hope that some strategy will soon prove effective.