More school hours - what do you think? (article)

[MommyAllison]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_us/us_more_school

My kids aren't old enough to go to school, but we plan to homeschool anyway. However, if we did send them to public school, I would really not be excited for their school hours to increase - especially in light of the comments from moms here re: how exhausted their kids are at the end of the day. Where does homework fit in to a longer school day? I do totally agree that for kids whose parents are not around and are at high risk for gang activity, etc, more school time on weekends and evenings might keep them in a safer place than home does. But for the rest, when is family time? When do extracurriculars happen? And for the kids who are high risk, will they really want more school hours, or will they just drop out in greater numbers?

What do you think?

(This thread is NOT about the president - hoping we can just discuss the idea of more school hours without becoming partisan - thanks!)

[bubbaray]

I think it depends on what is happening in the current instruction hours and what is planned for the increased hours, KWIM? For example, if the increased hours were going towards improved PE, arts, music, then I would support a longer school day.

Our school day increased in our district by 10 min starting this year -- but its to cover off a two week spring break (so really, no increase in overall school hours over the whole year). Of course, I family really won't feel a difference as DD#1 just started K this year and she is in before and after school daycare anyway -- its not a 10 minute later pickup for me, but rather for the daycare.

[MommyAllison]

I think it depends on what is happening in the current instruction hours and what is planned for the increased hours, KWIM? For example, if the increased hours were going towards improved PE, arts, music, then I would support a longer school day.



Very true, and I guess it is hard to know what to think now, as it is all being talked about very generally, with no specifics on how much extra time or what it would be used for.

[KrystalS]

I think a small increase wouldn't be a big deal but 3 hours?!! My DD would never make. She started all day kindergarten this year and she is completely exhausted after school. She needs a minimum of 1-2 hrs to just relax. I don't even want to think about when she starts having homework. She goes to bed by 8, but shes still hard to get up in the mornings. She usually gets up by 715, school starts at 8.
On the weekends its not uncommon for her to sleep until 10-1030, I think her body is trying to catch up on sleep.
Not to mention she is starving when she gets home. They would have to provide a very good snack for this to work. DD comes home and wants a full meal!

[icunurse]

Similar to an editorial a few weeks ago....
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/chi-0908edit1sep08,0,1133944.story

Basically, by having 20 minutes less instruction per day and a school-year 10 days shorter, by the end of 8th grade, it comes out to a full years worth LESS of schooling. And the teachers with the shorter school day/year tend to make more money.

[mom2binsd]

I think they also need to look at expanding the school year as opposed to lengthening the school day maybe. Students in the US go to school many fewer days than students in Canada and many other countries. Our district here in IL goes for about 176 instructional days and my brothers kids in Ontario go for 192 instructional days. I believe the school year in Japan is closer to 200+ days. Of course more time is school isn't necessarily better unless it's a quality education (luckily I feel our local district is fabulous!).

[jren]

I think there is only so much you can push out of a child in one day. Sort of like working late at the office. At some point, if you are tired and have looked at the same project for hours, you're no longer as productive.

The countries that we're trying to catch up with don't go longer days, just more days. Maybe that's the answer. DD is in Kindergarten and it's a 6.5 hour day. They have less than 15 minutes to eat lunch (by the time they go through line)! So they're not slacking off. It's a full day. If she has to go longer, I'd like to see more breaks added, like an appropriate amount of time to eat.

[randomkid]

I didn't read the whole article, but I think it's ridiculous. First of all, where is the money coming from to fund this? I don't know about the nation as a whole, but I am exposed to 2 school districts here - the one I live in and the one my stepdaughter lives in. There have been budget cuts until they can't cut anymore, teachers laid off, and this past summer there were no summer classes offered. My stepdaughter went to "drama camp" at her school and had to pay for it. She received no credit for this class. The summer before, she took a drama class, it was free and she was given a grade and credit for the class. We can't even pay for a quality education now, how does Obama intend to pay for longer days, more days out of the year. This is what irks me about politics - all these "great" ideas, but no explanations as to how they will be funded.

As far as personally, no I don't want DD in school all day. School is not a job. Kids need rest and from reading here, some kids are in bed by 7pm - are they crazy? Why is it so important to "compete" with the rest of the world? If we are in such a horrible state, why do people continue to move here from all over the world to live, work and make a better life for themselves and their families?

This does not sit well with me at all. They have already cut back on recess/PE time and research shows that kids perform better when they have that break and time to exercise. I am all for quality education, but not quantity education. I think the focus should be on making our schools/education better, not longer!

Now, let me tell you how I really feel about it - LOL!

ETA: I read a little more of the article and to me, this says a lot "Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013). That is despite the fact that Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong have longer school years (190 to 201 days) than does the U.S. (180 days)."

So, these countries that outperform us, that we want to "level the playing field" with, are not in school more than we are. Their education is BETTER. Like I said, it's all about the quality of the education. Our kids could be in school year round, but they won't do any better or learn any more if the current problems are not addressed. The problem is not length of time, it's underpaid teachers, uneducated teachers and lack of funding for one of the most important parts of our society - education.

[daniele_ut]

I grew up attending a private school that had an extended schedule and I think I benefited from it. Our school day ran from 7:45 to 4:30 every day, though the last hour of the day was filled with elective courses. We were required to choose electives for at least 4 days of the week. Frankly, I think it kept us out of trouble. By the time I walked home from school, my dad was already home from work. Homework was usually about an hour.

I don't have a huge problem with extending the school year slightly, but I think I would rather that they shorten some of the breaks during the school year rather than take away the summer break. I understand the argument that disadvantaged kids don't make progress during the summer, but for our family, I'd prefer to have the summer intact for travel to see family and learning adventures.

[bubbaray]

Students in the US go to school many fewer days than students in Canada and many other countries. Our district here in IL goes for about 176 instructional days and my brothers kids in Ontario go for 192 instructional days.


WOW, that's almost a full month less of instructional days! Our calendar here in BC is 192-194 days.

[MMEand1]

I think that instead of a longer day, lets just do year-round school. I know that some schools are already doing that and, at least for my nephew, it has proven to be very beneficial for him. He forgets less during his breaks and he enjoys getting a nice little break every few months. At the point we're at with my DS, I don't think an additional 3 hours would be helpful with his attitude (and my sanity)!!!

[bubbaray]

I like the concept of full-year schooling, ASSUMING that the entire school system does it on the same calendar, KWIM? I have heard horror stories here from parents where different schools are on different calendars, making daycare and family holidays impossible to plan. Our entire district is on a uniform calendar for this very reason (parental uproar).

I am actually worried about losing ground over the summers b/c my girls will be in French Immersion. I will be paying for them to go to French camps, but I'd rather they just get more instructional days, KWIM?

[SnuggleBuggles]

Not a fan of it. Ds1 goes to school from 8-3:30. I think that is more than enough. They have a longer school day to accommodate extra curriculum that I really want him to have. So many times that I was in school last year I could see most of the kids glossing over by around 2-2;30. After a while it gets to be pretty silly to be trying to teach kids that have just zoned out and need a break.

I couldn't even imagine trying to fit 3 more hours of school into the day. Homework? Extracurriculars? FUN??? When the kids get older and are really involved in things like athletics, music and all sorts of other activities there just wouldn't be enough time to do a quality job with those on top of the long school day. Were it not for my daily nap after school during musical season, I couldn't have kept going till 10-11pm when rehearsal was over. What about kids who need an income when they are older? How would that get fit in?

I think there are better solutions all around. Year round school? I think that has merits. I am not really feeling the love of the longer school day.

Beth

[KrisM]

DS is gone 8:15 to 4:15 now. No way does that need to be any longer.

I would support shorter days and more days. I think Michigan is at 171 because they require total hours of school and passed a law that we can't start until after Labor Day in Sept. So, they made days longer and we still get out mid-June.

[Globetrotter]

DS is gone 8:15 to 4:15 now. No way does that need to be any longer.

Wow, that's a long day! Our kids go for 6.5 hours (3.5 for KG!) and I think they could do another hour at least. Anything beyond that would have to be electives at the end of the day.

I would hope there IS no homework with an extended schedule as the work should be done in class!

When we compare scores with Asian nations, we must remember that it is the NORM for kids there to get after school tutoring. They basically don't have a life outside of studies. I have many friends who grew up in Asia and have terrible memories of school - of course there are exceptions, but I don't think that's something we should strive for.

[kijip]

I don't think a longer school day would be workable for a lot of kids.

I could see more school days per year, but not days much longer than they are now.

I don't think the problems that more instructional days are supposed to solve would necessarily be best solved by more instructional days. Some of it is curriculum and structural issues. And some things, like keeping kids busy during the afternoons for their own safety, is not necessarily a school function fully.

[egoldber]

When we compare scores with Asian nations, we must remember that it is the NORM for kids there to get after school tutoring.

I was also thinking this. Many, many children go to school after school in other countries, so it isn't exactly comparable.

Sarah could not deal with a longer school day, not if there were homework on top of it. If the homework was built in to the day, it could be OK for an additional hour or so. She now goes 9-4 for 183 days.

It just worries me that so many kids have no time after school to do anything outdoors or for fun. I know that it comes from a place of privilege though, because many children in single parent and in home where parents work multiple jobs those after school activities are not really there. And as a WOH parent I now realize what a serious, serious problem finding reliable, quality after school child care is!

[KrisM]

Wow, that's a long day! Our kids go for 6.5 hours (3.5 for KG!) and I think they could do another hour at least. Anything beyond that would have to be electives at the end of the day.

I would hope there IS no homework with an extended schedule as the work should be done in class!

When we compare scores with Asian nations, we must remember that it is the NORM for kids there to get after school tutoring. They basically don't have a life outside of studies. I have many friends who grew up in Asia and have terrible memories of school - of course there are exceptions, but I don't think that's something we should strive for.

Well, that's what he's gone. School is 8:40 - 3:42, so 7:02 hours. Bus picks up at 8:30 and drops off at 4:08 and we have to walk a couple blocks. I pick him up twice a week just to get him home faster and we get home at 3:50 or so.

[Ceepa]

This is a horrible proposal for my family and I'm sure for many others.

[Melaine]

I hate the idea of longer school days, period.

[o_mom]

It just worries me that so many kids have no time after school to do anything outdoors or for fun. I know that it comes from a place of privilege though, because many children in single parent and in home where parents work multiple jobs those after school activities are not really there. And as a WOH parent I now realize what a serious, serious problem finding reliable, quality after school child care is!

This is a good point. I know that as a SAHM, a longer day doesn't appeal to me, but in reality, many kids with working parents are already in school and childcare for 9-10 hrs. With before and aftercare, 7-5 or so is pretty normal. Even though it's not instructional time, it is still time that they are 'on' and it does many times included homework.

Right now DS1's day is 6.5 hrs in the class. Add a half hour for bus riding and he is gone 7 hrs. Personally, I would rather see funding for smaller class sizes in the early grades. OTOH, I realize that there are a large number of kids who would be better off with structured activities, even school time, rather than going home to an empty house or to low-quality care situations.

[egoldber]

A quick Google of "school age children home alone after school" found this info, which is pretty scary:

http://www.naccrra.org/policy/background_issues/after-school-care

Some highlights:


Nearly 6 million children in the United States take care of themselves between the time they get home from school and the time their parents get home from work. Self-care is associated with more accidents and injuries, behavior problems, and lower academic achievement.

In households where both parents work or the single parent works, 31 percent of children in grades K-12 are unsupervised after school. According to polling, 26 percent of these families would be likely to use after-school programs if they were available.


34 percent of American middle school children are completely unsupervised in the afternoons.


After-school programs also benefit the community. On school days, the peak hours for juvenile crime are between 3 PM and 6 PM. Students who spend no time in extracurricular activities are 49 percent more likely to use drugs and 37 percent more likely to become teen parents than those who spend time in supervised extracurricular activities.


Parents especially recognize the need for supervised care after school. 67 percent of parents believe that there are not enough after-school programs to meet the needs of their communities.

[Ceepa]

I understand there are children who would be better served by having a place to go after school and on weekends. At DC's school there is before and afterschool care available at additional costs to the families, some receive financial aid. The default should not be to extend school hours for everyone to serve those select students.

[secchick]

I am generally in favor of year round school and while I don't necessarily favor extending the school day for more than an hour or so, I would be lying if I said that the after school program wasn't a significant factor in selecting the private school DD attends, since we both WOH. It is awesome. She is in Pre-K, and the after school program is from 3-6. It gives all of the children a chance to run around and it is staffed primarily with sidents from the local college. Every time I pick her up, she is out on the playground (different play areas for different age groups, but even the older kids are playing soccer in the courtyard). They also offer extra-curriculars and DD takes karate, dance, and gymnastics during this time. They also offer other athletics, piano lessons, science camp, etc. for older children. The basic program is also only $2/hour (the extra-curriculars are extra). For older children, after the play time, the college students also assist with homework and my understanding is that the vast majority of kids get their homework done during the program. We are very fortunate that we got in to this school (having put DD on the wait list and applied when she was 9 months old). It is a shame that this level of care is not universal.

[egoldber]

The default should not be to extend school hours for everyone to serve those select students.

I agree with you. I guess the issue becomes how do you meet the needs of a significant population of students in a public school without it becoming mandatory for those who don't need it. It's a hard question.

The after care program in our district is highly sought after. We have been on the wait list for after school care for a YEAR and we are still not in. Finding a quality child care provider willing to do only the hours from 4-6 is very hard.

[lfp2n]

In the UK, the school day is pretty similar length but I think that there are 10 more school days a year. I never thought of it as year round schooling but the model is 3 terms a year, with a 2 week break at the end of the winter and spring term and a 6 week summer break. Added to that there are 1 week 'half terms' so you never go more than a 6 week period without a week off. I think it worked well, and 6 weeks seemed like a good long summer holiday as a kid, but I as an adult I found 11 weeks off this summer pretty crazy.

[pb&j]

I think it depends on what is happening in the current instruction hours and what is planned for the increased hours, KWIM? For example, if the increased hours were going towards improved PE, arts, music, then I would support a longer school day.

:yeahthat:

What I'd really like to see is less focus on standardized testing. I would like to reclaim the time that is spent prepping for and taking the tests required of NCLB.

[alexsmommy]

I have many thoughts but not enough time to organize them right now. Off the top of my head - I'm not opposed to a seven hour school day IF there is then no homework - at least not until at least middle school. If kids were gone that long I would want there to still be time after school for activities, family dinners etc. So many parents I work with talk about what a struggle it is to get the kids homework done and it is affecting the family quality time dynamic. Now keep in mind, I say that as a parent in a suburb in a metro area - not as a parent in a more rural setting with crazy long bus ride time. That would have to be addressed too. I cannot imagine living where my kid had an hour bus ride and had a 8am-4pm school day. Clearly there are multiple issues to address.
I think more instructional days and/or year round or semi-year round school is probably a better solution. It would be a big leap mentally for a lot of the country, but friends in year round or semi-year round areas really, really like it. I agree with a PP though, this needs to be the same throughout towns districts so families could vacation etc. My girlfriends daughter is on a 8 week on 1 week off (approximately, adjusts somewhat for holidays) with a shorter summer break and loves it. She both a teacher and a parent and she feels like the kids retain so much more.
It's a lot to think about, but clearly something that needs to be looked at.

[bcafe]

My beef with the current system is that the students have all of these ridiculous breaks. Why do they need a lengthy winter and spring break? In SE Wi the teachers have a silly 2 day period on October in which they are "encouraged" to go to meetings. Are they mandatory? No. Are they gone to? No. I know, as I have asked many a teacher.

[C99]

I understand where both Duncan and Obama are coming from. My child's school has the longest elementary school day within the Chicago Public Schools - it runs 1 hour longer each day. This translates into 21 extra days of instruction over the course of the year. By adding an extra hour to the day, the kids get recess everyday without impacting instructional time. They also get gym, technology, art, and music -- again, without negatively impacting instructional time.

ETA: Last year, my child was home with me in the afternoons. This year, he is in aftercare. He is now reading and doing basic math, and pretty happy to do so. Whether that is a function of his developmental readiness for learning or the after-care, I am not sure. Fortunately, our school does not have a wait list for this fee-based care.

When I lived in France, even little kids went to school from 8-4+ every day, with a half day on Wednesdays and/or Saturdays.

[hanaum02]

I think they also need to look at expanding the school year as opposed to lengthening the school day maybe. Students in the US go to school many fewer days than students in Canada and many other countries. Our district here in IL goes for about 176 instructional days and my brothers kids in Ontario go for 192 instructional days. I believe the school year in Japan is closer to 200+ days. Of course more time is school isn't necessarily better unless it's a quality education (luckily I feel our local district is fabulous!).

This is kind of where my thoughts are too. I would prefer to lengthen the school year rather than the school day. Perhaps by having some schooling at some point over the summer there would be less of a "brain dump" from year to year.

[justlearning]

I understand how certain families could benefit from a longer school day and longer school year.

It would be EXTREMELY expensive, however, to implement changes that would affect all families. And furthermore, it seems unnecessary as well and arguably could have detrimental effects on more kids than would be helped.

My son's school runs from 8am-3:15 daily. He does get off at noon, though, on about three Fridays a month. Teachers have mandatory in-depth training on those afternoons.

Personally, I love his schedule now. It's nice to have those Friday afternoons off to be able to do things as a family or schedule doctor's appointments for him, etc.

He isn't exhausted at the end of his school day, but I don't think he'd be happy if he had to stay there any longer. Would it be nice to have more time for longer recesses? Sure. But that's not the purpose of the proposal. It would be to lengthen the amount of time for instruction. As it is right now, student test scores at DS's school are extremely high. So do they really need more time for instruction? Not in my opinion. The teachers are well trained and use the time that they do have wisely and efficiently. Would more time for instruction put unneeded pressure on the kids to become even more advanced academically than they already are? Yes. Would that be a good thing? I don't think so.

But are there schools where the teachers need more time with students because parents aren't working with their children as much? I'm sure there are. But again, I don't think that applying mandatory school schedule changes across the board for all schools is the best approach or a good use of funds, which are already way too low for many school districts to do the job that they're currently doing.

[mamicka]

I think that if the goal is to improve our children's education, simply increasing the days/hours that school is in session is a band-aid & will not be successful. I think that the real motivation for this kind of change is to provide more "free" childcare. It seemed pretty obvious by some of the quotes in the linked article.

I wish I had time to go on...

[kransden]

Three hours is for working parents. They can say anything they want about why they do it, but it is for parents. I have never met a teacher in favor of it, though I am sure they are out there somewhere. I subbed at a charter school last year 8-3pm. This year they upped the hours to 7:30-4pm. Then they wondered why I couldn't work for them. Gee more hours, no increase in pay, and I would have to put my dd in daycare.

[niccig]

I'm in favour of a longer school year. But that's what I am used to. I looked it up, and the state my parents live in in Australia has a school year of 41 weeks - so about 205 days. That's several weeks more than our local school district. If that extra time meant that there was more time to cover curriculum and to have PE/art/music, I would be all for it. A neighbouring school district made the start of school 2 weeks earlier, so there's more class time before the standardized testing - I'm not a fan of the push for testing, and wouldn't be in favour of more school days to cram more in before the testing. More time to cover things or more time to include PE/music/the arts - that I would be all for. So, it depends what the extra time will be used for.

I will admit that I always thought it was strange to have such a long summer break. I had 6 weeks growing up and it felt like plenty of time.

I can't see school hours or days being increased in CA, the state of the furlough. It would be considered too costly to keep the schools open longer, and education and health, always seems to be the first to cut in budgets

[ilfaith]

I find this interesting considering that budget cuts have led to a shorter school day for the public schools here in Jacksonville, FL.

http://wokv.com/localnews/2009/04/duval-school-day-will-be-45-mi.html

[michellerw]

I've been in favor of year round schooling for a long time. I don't think the summer vacation model suits us as a society anymore -- it benefits children to learn in a year round model and it benefits families that would otherwise need to make childcare arrangements (although that's certainly a secondary concern).

I think this recent Outlook piece in the Washington Post makes a great case for the reasons why year round schooling has been so beneficial in a local school district: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/05/AR2009060501971.html

And I too would like to see standardized testing de-emphasized, kids given more time for recess and PE, and better arts education.