n/m

[hobie]

Never mind. I was having a bad day, and I think this has caused even more bad feelings. I will keep my b!tchy thoughts to myself.

[kijip]

That is a late cutoff! Here the cutoff date is August 31 (I think, maybe September something). Kids that will be 5 by November can be tested at the parent's request and deemed ready or not. December seems very late unless the child has been evaluated and is ready in terms of social and academic aspects.

[connor_mommy]

California schools cutoff is December 2nd. A lot of kids in our area that have late October birthdays till December usually hold off a year before starting K. Our school does an assesment just after registration to make sure the child is ready to start K. I know of one student that doesn't turn 5 until the end of October. But he has an older brother in the 2nd grade and is emotionally and socially mature enough, that his mom had decided to not hold him off a year like his brother. But not all parents may think the same. Having their child in a school when he's not ready is not beneficial to the child.

[mytwosons]

Our cut-off is 12/1.

But, the parents may not have had a choice. Do you know for sure he hasn't been receiving spec. ed. services? If so, the school (IME) doesn't want to hold the child back in Pre-K (maybe because it would mean one more year of spec. ed. services over his schooling year?). If he has an aide so early in the year, I'm guessing it was arranged before school started. It's not easy to get a full-time aide.

I think there is more to the story than you can know just by observing an hour a week.

[Melaine]

This is a public school, so the school has to accomdate him, by providing him a full time aide to monitor his behavior. Full time assistants should go to kids who really do have special needs, not kids that just aren't mature enough. The public school is strained cost wise to begin with (which is why they have parent voulnteers).

Are you saying the public school provides aides for children who are young for their grade? REALLY?

[egoldber]

Full time assistants should go to kids who really do have special needs,

If he has a full time aide in public school, especially in California, I think it's pretty safe to assume that he has a documented special need. Those aides are NOT easy to come by and typically parents have to advocate strongly for them.

I guess I am sensitive about this because my older DD is young for grade. If he meets the cutoff the school should be able to accommodate him. Holding back kids who are close to the cutoff enables schools to continue putting developmentally inappropriate expectations onto Kindergarteners.

Some children with special needs are able to be accommodated in the regular classroom. Right now is still an adjustment time. Of course it is NEVER OK to hit a teacher or student, but I woudl not assume that the school is not closely monitoring the situation to see how it is working out and does not have contingency plans in place.

[Ceepa]

Sounds like there is more to the situation than just age with this little boy.

[frgsnlzrds]

E is in pre-k this year as a 3 y.o. because he turns 4 at the start of December. He will have a second year of pre-k because you have to be 5 before the school year starts. I think 4 is too young for Kindergarten, too, but I think that's the cut off date's fault, not the parent's.

[hobie]

too much....

[egoldber]

And that's your decision for your family. Other families deserve the same courtesy. It would have been a disaster for my child to be held back a year when she was more than ready academically for K. You don't know what's going on with that child.

Studies show that children with developmental issues generally benefit from going to school on time, because those issues get identified sooner which means that they get intervention sooner. In many cases delaying a year only exacerbates problems.

What this woman is doing with her child is not typical in public school. There is clearly some sort of behavior plan / modifications in place for this child.


but she chooses not to come

If he has issues, then school may be her respite time and she needs that time. Or perhaps she has younger children and is not able to come. Or perhaps she needs to work. Or perhaps the other children at home need respite.

There is just no way to know what is going on inside a family from the outside.

[sste]

Hobie, I can understand that you are frustrated! It may be that the family is best able to get special services (aide, maybe special therapies) if the child starts school - - I know there is a gap in many states between early intervention (ages 1-3) which provides free services and then the public school providing free services.

On the daycare, I know you are going to disagree, but I am completely BUMMED that DS has an October 30th birthday (sept 1 cutoff) so we will pay for an extra year of daycare (15k-20k including enrichment activities). I def view school as free childcare - - among other things of course!

I know its your bitching post, but maybe you would feel better if you talked to the teacher about ensuring an aide is consistently present (which actually increases the student teacher ratio and benefits your son). I don't know if your son is at an age for this yet but it may be that you could talk to him about helping. In my city, parents pay a pretty penny for multi-age montessori private school (ages 3-6 I believe in most) so that children have this opportunity to help younger kids. :) Anyway, just trying to offer a different way to look at it.

[mytwosons]

The little boy in my son's class was supposed to have his mother attend class with him, to be his aide, but she chooses not to come. He also goes home after lunch, because he is tired (!), but after his b-day he will stay all day.

Wow. Sounds like the school needs to be reminded what privacy is.

[niccig]

I wonder too if there is some developmental delay. There is no way CA will pay for an aide in a class because the child just makes the cut-off and is still 4 years old. I say this as my friend's son had Down Syndrome and his services are getting cut. She has to fight to get him anything, so being the youngest in the class wouldn't be enough here in our school district to have an aide. There might be more to the story, but the school doesn't have to inform other parents because of student privacy.

I too would be concerned about the teacher's time, so you could ask about the aide and if they are there enough to help out. Heck, even without children with special needs, teachers need all the help they can get. I have friends that volunteer a day every week to help the teachers as there are more kids in the class this year and less time from the regular teaching aide.

[Laurel]

Wow. Sounds like the school needs to be reminded what privacy is.

Yeah, it sounds to me like a staff member is talking about things they are not supposed to talk about.

A full-time aide at the start of K in California? This is not just about age, this child has surely been designated with special needs.

OP, I know this is the bitching post, but I'd let it go for now.

[jenmcadams]

I guess I am sensitive about this because my older DD is young for grade. If he meets the cutoff the school should be able to accommodate him. Holding back kids who are close to the cutoff enables schools to continue putting developmentally inappropriate expectations onto Kindergarteners.

THIS!!!! I know this is the bitching post (and I've only read through the first page), but if a school district has a cut-off and a child meets that cut-off, they are entitled to attend. I think it's hardly fair to call the child a toddler...maybe he has other special needs and I can imagine how frustrating it would be to have a kid in your child's class who needs tons of extra attention from the teacher and seems to be holding the class back (we've been pretty lucky not to have any significant issues in our first few years of school), but that's sort of the reality of public school.

My older DD is the 2nd youngest kid in her grade at our school (8/29 birthday in district with a 10/1 cut-off). She typically is in the top 10-20% of students performance wise each year (she's a good reader and really good at math), but there are a couple of kids who seem perpetually ahead of her who are over 15 months older than she is. She's doing great and I'm happy to have her where she's at and glad that we started her when we did, but I knew several of these other kids before they started K and they were ready...they wouldn't have been the absolute top student in Gr 1 or 2, but they were more than ready to start and when they did start they spent most of K and 1st bored and by 2nd everyone is starting to catch up. There are a couple of kids who are just super bright and would have been fine either way, but the 6 year old boys in K who were way ahead academically are starting to move back towards the middle.

My DS will be one of the youngest boys next year (6/24 birthday) b/c most people hold summer boys back, but he's already reading, can do simple math and has a great attention span, but he'll forever be at a disadvantage size wise b/c we're choosing to send him on-time. I'm comfortable with the decision, but I do think schools are able to push kids beyond what's developmentally appropriate for K students b/c of all the redshirting and the kids who suffer are the kids whose parents can't afford another year of preschool and whose kids start on-time and seem to be behind.

Anyways...sorry for the offtrack B**tch. I just feel strongly that if the school has a cut-off date and the child meets that date, the parents shouldn't feel bad when they choose to send their kids on time. Good friends of ours (both MDs) just decided to keep out their early June boy (so a full year older than my son) b/c they're worried about him and sports. He's been reading since he turned 4 (just turned 5) and has always fit in well with older kids...he's simply short and probably always will be. So, their son will be starting K at 6 years old, with 2 years of preschool and 2 years of pre-K and he's been reading and writing since 4 1/2. But in their district, very few affluent families send their kids with May or later birthdays...I just wonder if it's getting out of control...

[o_mom]

And that's your decision for your family. Other families deserve the same courtesy. It would have been a disaster for my child to be held back a year when she was more than ready academically for K. You don't know what's going on with that child.

Studies show that children with developmental issues generally benefit from going to school on time, because those issues get identified sooner which means that they get intervention sooner. In many cases delaying a year only exacerbates problems.

What this woman is doing with her child is not typical in public school. There is clearly some sort of behavior plan / modifications in place for this child.



If he has issues, then school may be her respite time and she needs that time. Or perhaps she has younger children and is not able to come. Or perhaps she needs to work. Or perhaps the other children at home need respite.

There is just no way to know what is going on inside a family from the outside.

:yeahthat:

I will add that perhaps he is getting help there that he would not otherwise be eligible for. Once kids age out of EI, they are forced into the school system to get help. If he has issues that the school system refuses to address, the mom may have felt she had no choice but to enroll him to get the help he needs. The earlier problems are identified and addressed the better the outcomes.

I also do not believe that 4.5 is too young for K. Most 4.5 yos can sit through a half day of school without any isses and many can handle an age-appropriate full day. That he can't handle that is a signal to me that his problems are not just 'immaturity'. OTOH, parents purposly holding their kids out, causing a huge age range in those classes does causes problems. If the teacher only had to deal with 4.5 -5.5 yos, and not 4.5-6.5 yos, the classroom could be better targeted to teach to the age range it is supposed to.

[hellokitty]

Sounds like there is more to the situation than just age with this little boy.

:yeahthat:

[bubbaray]

That is the cutoff here -- December 31. I have only ever heard of 1 person holding back a child, holding back is NOT common here at all.

We just went to a 5th b-day on Sunday for one of the girls in DD#1's K class.

I just don't understand the "holding" back thing. If the expectations for K are age-appropriate, age really shouldn't be causing people to hold back their children.

JMHO.

[hobie]

One of my DS's still had not settled on being a righty or a lefty at the start of last school year, so that was another reason to keep both of them out (my dad is left handed, and had a hard time in school, because teachers pushed him to be right handed). Their Ped and pre-school teachers also aggreed that they weren't quite mature enough for K last year.

It was also shocking to see a student hit a teacher, as it was my volunteer day when this occured. Maybe he does have "something else" going on with his developement, but that action looked just like a toddler's tantrum, and it was very disruptive.


My main b!tch is that I think the Dec cutoff date is too much, and, IMO, all of the kids should be 5 by the first day of school.

[Fairy]

We are in CA.

My feeling is that 4 is too young for Kindergarten. We have all day K classes here, 8-2:30, which is a long day for little kids. I could have started my kids last year, as their B-day is in Sept, but they weren't really ready.

The little boy in my son's class was supposed to have his mother attend class with him, to be his aide, but she chooses not to come. He also goes home after lunch, because he is tired (!), but after his b-day he will stay all day.

And my own hang up is that I think that all day school is a lot to expect of any little kid, so I kept my boys out until this year. I like the idea of them having a longer childhood, because of the pressures sociaty puts on young people. Kindergarten expects so much more from kids than it used to.

Sorry, but I'm seeing the forest for the trees with everyone else on this. For one thing, I know alot of tantrumy 5yo's. It happens. Also, all day school is not unreasonable for a 5yo, nor is it unreasonable for a 3yo, as that's what daycare often is. My guy has been in all day pre-k or all day pre-k style daycare 3-4 days a week since he was 15mo and is now 5, and his program is a wonderful match for him. Maybe not the kid across the street, but certainly for mine. Also, 8 - 2:30 is far from being all day in my world ;). On that note, I definitely sympathize with the frustration you are feeling, but the way you say all day school isn't good for young kids makes me and probably the people like me feel bad and kind of defensive. I'm a very good mother and trying to do the best for my child, but that kind of statement makes me feel kind of judged. Finally, it does seem to me that this little boy, maybe a terror maybe not, has something else going on; more to this story than being able to sit thru a book.

[Fairy]

The bottom line is that not all 5yo's are created equal. Some need more help in some areas than others.

[sste]

hmmm . . . I see all sides here in terms of when to start school. I have to admit I am a little horrified by what some kindys expect and I (personally) on an educational outcomes basis do not agree with early reading instruction - - if I had my way DS would do all puzzles, blocks, stories, and games until he was 7 or 8. Yet, I don't think I am going to be able to find a public or private kindy that agrees with me in the United States. :)

Also, in keeping with my tendency to strong opinions, I think its all about ratio not home versus school. My belief, based on alot of research, is that for *most* kids it is ideal to have a 1:1 or 1:2 provider:child ratio until about 2 years old give or take and then somewhere between 2-3 what was ideal at 1-2 doesn't work anymore for *most* kids and I think that preschool/lots of activities/full-time care/daycare what have you works better with their energy level and developmental needs. I will also say- - importantly - - that maybe ideal should not be our goal. Kids aren't the only ones with needs, there is an entire family to consider. There is also something to be said for kids learning to be adaptable, flexible, etc - - early preparation for an imperfect world.

Anyway, what I think we should keep in mind with the four year old with seeming developmental delay is that he is at a very appropriate ratio of 1:1 with his full-time aide.

[KrisM]

Sorry, but I'm seeing the forest for the trees with everyone else on this. For one thing, I know alot of tantrumy 5yo's. It happens. Also, all day school is not unreasonable for a 5yo, nor is it unreasonable for a 3yo, as that's what daycare often is. My guy has been in all day pre-k or all day pre-k style daycare 3-4 days a week since he was 15mo and is now 5, and his program is a wonderful match for him. Maybe not the kid across the street, but certainly for mine. Also, 8 - 2:30 is far from being all day in my world ;). On that note, I definitely sympathize with the frustration you are feeling, but the way you say all day school isn't good for young kids makes me and probably the people like me feel bad and kind of defensive. I'm a very good mother and trying to do the best for my child, but that kind of statement makes me feel kind of judged. Finally, it does seem to me that this little boy, maybe a terror maybe not, has something else going on; more to this story than being able to sit thru a book.

Totally not judging here, but when I think of daycare vs school, I think they're very different. I have never done daycare, so maybe I'm wrong. My 5 year old is in kindergarten and is struggling to adjust to the all-day thing. Ours is 8:40 to 3:40 and all but 2-2.5 hours is sitting at a desk, or in a circle and paying attention to the teacher. Very directed type of stuff. In my head, I imagine daycare to have lots of free-play time, running around, time outside, time doing crafts, etc, and very little desk-time. For my son, adjusting to sitting at a desk has been tough.

I agree that there very likely is something else going on with this little boy. I'm not a fan of holding kids back either because then you have kids who are above the age that the class is set up for and the teachers, etc are tempted to bring harder things in so those older kids aren't "bored". My kids are all spring/summer and our cut off is Dec. 1, so I have no worries about starting on time, but I know of 1 kid who has a August birthday who was held back. He was already 6 prior to kindergarten. I think it makes it hard on the teachers to teach a 6 year old and a 4.5 year old.

[mytwosons]

It was also shocking to see a student hit a teacher, as it was my volunteer day when this occured. Maybe he does have "something else" going on with his developement, but that action looked just like a toddler's tantrum, and it was very disruptive.


My main b!tch is that I think the Dec cutoff date is too much, and, IMO, all of the kids should be 5 by the first day of school.

My DS1 has autism and I know I was judged all the time because his behavior was disruptive and appeared to be a tantrum. If you don't know what you are looking at, people often think an ASD is poor parenting, tantrums, misbehavior, etc.

I know there is always talk in this area of pushing back the cut-off date to Sept 1, but I have no idea what needs to happen to make that a reality. Maybe there is something you can do to help get it changed in your area.

[deborah_r]

Totally not judging here, but when I think of daycare vs school, I think they're very different. I have never done daycare, so maybe I'm wrong. My 5 year old is in kindergarten and is struggling to adjust to the all-day thing. Ours is 8:40 to 3:40 and all but 2-2.5 hours is sitting at a desk, or in a circle and paying attention to the teacher. Very directed type of stuff. In my head, I imagine daycare to have lots of free-play time, running around, time outside, time doing crafts, etc, and very little desk-time. For my son, adjusting to sitting at a desk has been tough.

Well, sitting at a desk did increase for DS1 between all-day daycare/preschool he had attended, but it wasn't like in Kindy they spent all day at a desk, Actually it was a group of tables, 4 kids at each, but the spent plenty of time working/playing/exploring in other areas of the room (centers, I'd guess you'd call them) - which was similar to preschool for him, but with more play at preschool. DS1 was very well prepared for Kindy after spending 3 years at all-day daycare/preschool. In fact if the boy in the OP does not have some kind of special needs, I would tend to wonder if some of his problem is that he didn't spend any time in preschool? Maybe he's not had much experience sitting still for stories. Which is something the parents should have made sure he was exposed to, one way or another (at home, at free library storytime, etc.) Again, I am just discussing hypothetically if he is not special needs. I do wonder how they could get an aide w/o having SN.

Anecdotally (sp?), DS1's best friend in school was 4 when he started K and you would have never known it. Really well-behaved and adjusted to school very well.

[SnuggleBuggles]

hmmm . . . I see all sides here in terms of when to start school. I have to admit I am a little horrified by what some kindys expect and I (personally) on an educational outcomes basis do not agree with early reading instruction - - if I had my way DS would do all puzzles, blocks, stories, and games until he was 7 or 8. Yet, I don't think I am going to be able to find a public or private kindy that agrees with me in the United States. :)



Thankfully I found that for kindergarten. I wish I could have had that experience longer but at least we had it all the way through till 1st grade. First grade was pretty good too, just not as neat as his schooling till then. You may find a gem like that. :)

Beth

[KrisM]

Well, sitting at a desk did increase for DS1 between all-day daycare/preschool he had attended, but it wasn't like in Kindy they spent all day at a desk, Actually it was a group of tables, 4 kids at each, but the spent plenty of time working/playing/exploring in other areas of the room (centers, I'd guess you'd call them) - which was similar to preschool for him, but with more play at preschool. DS1 was very well prepared for Kindy after spending 3 years at all-day daycare/preschool. In fact if the boy in the OP does not have some kind of special needs, I would tend to wonder if some of his problem is that he didn't spend any time in preschool? Maybe he's not had much experience sitting still for stories. Which is something the parents should have made sure he was exposed to, one way or another (at home, at free library storytime, etc.) Again, I am just discussing hypothetically if he is not special needs. I do wonder how they could get an aide w/o having SN.

Anecdotally (sp?), DS1's best friend in school was 4 when he started K and you would have never known it. Really well-behaved and adjusted to school very well.

That even could be it - no preschool. I have not been in DS's room yet during school, but I do know they have desks. They're pushed together to make small squares, but they each have a spot and storage underneath for their supplies. DS has complained about sitting and working too much. I am still working on getting a daily schedule or some idea of what they do each day from the teacher.

[bubbaray]

Totally not judging here, but when I think of daycare vs school, I think they're very different. I have never done daycare, so maybe I'm wrong. My 5 year old is in kindergarten and is struggling to adjust to the all-day thing. Ours is 8:40 to 3:40 and all but 2-2.5 hours is sitting at a desk, or in a circle and paying attention to the teacher. Very directed type of stuff. In my head, I imagine daycare to have lots of free-play time, running around, time outside, time doing crafts, etc, and very little desk-time. For my son, adjusting to sitting at a desk has been tough.




I guess every experience is different, but my DD#1's K class really isn't much different than her center-daycare (which she still attends, but in a school-aged room). It is quite a bit different than her previous home-based daycare, though. I think having DD#1 in a center prior to starting K really helped. Plus, it also helped that our K is VERY play-oriented and they do very little "sitting" time. Lots of play activities & crafts, outside time every day, special activities daily (library, music, gym, computer lab), etc.. The only real difference for her between daycare & K is K is in a foreign language and she has a new teacher and new children to engage with.

ETA: And they don't have assigned desks at her K either (communal supplies) -- it appears that the teacher has "stations" set up for things, much like her daycare.

[mytwosons]

My 5 year old is in kindergarten and is struggling to adjust to the all-day thing. Ours is 8:40 to 3:40 and all but 2-2.5 hours is sitting at a desk, or in a circle and paying attention to the teacher. Very directed type of stuff.

This was not our Kinder experience. I can't remember if they had desks pushed together or little tables. They didn't have an assigned seat, but did have an assigned table. They had a special each day, between 1 and 3 recesses depending on the weather, and lots of free time to look at books, play with legos and make whatever they want at the "art" table. First grade expects them to attend for much more of the day, and I know that's hard for some of the kids. Shorter days, though....

[KrisM]

This was not our Kinder experience. I can't remember if they had desks pushed together or little tables. They didn't have an assigned seat, but did have an assigned table. They had a special each day, between 1 and 3 recesses depending on the weather, and lots of free time to look at books, play with legos and make whatever they want at the "art" table. First grade expects them to attend for much more of the day, and I know that's hard for some of the kids. Shorter days, though....

Sounds much better. This is the first year of all day here and they went from 3 to 7 sections of K, so rooms were moved around, etc. DS's teacher taught 1st last year, so quite possibly, the desks are there because of that.

I need to get in to volunteer one day.

[Gena]

He is still 4! He doesn't turn 5 until December. He is still a toddler! He is not mature enough to sit through the class, and listen to a story, even. I volunteer in the class, one day a week, for one hour.

A child who is 4.5 is not a toddler. And apparently he does meet the legal age requirement to be a Kindergartener in your state.

An hour a week is definately not enough time to get the full picture of this child's situation. If the child needs a full time aide, he almost certainly has special education needs. And it is very possible that he is receiving additional services (either pull-out or in the classroom) that you do not see during your one hour a week.




The little boy in my son's class was supposed to have his mother attend class with him, to be his aide, but she chooses not to come. He also goes home after lunch, because he is tired (!), but after his b-day he will stay all day.

If he has special needs there may be very good reasons why his mother does not attend. He may already be overly dependent on his mother and need to learn to function without her. He may need to learn how to take direction from adults other than his parents. He may accept his mother's presence at school.

My son (age 5 and in Kindy) has ASD and will not accept his Daddy or I coming to school. We do not volunteer in the classroom or attend special parties where families are invited. Because if either of us enters the classroom, DS breaks down and cries for us to go away and go home. To DS, Mommy and Daddy do not belong at school and it wrecks his understanding of the world for us to show up there. It breaks my heart, but that's just the way it is.



It was also shocking to see a student hit a teacher, as it was my volunteer day when this occured. Maybe he does have "something else" going on with his developement, but that action looked just like a toddler's tantrum, and it was very disruptive.

My main b!tch is that I think the Dec cutoff date is too much, and, IMO, all of the kids should be 5 by the first day of school.

The meltdowns that children with autism, SPD, and other special needs have often looks like a toddler's tantrum. They are not. They are something very different and is something that must be handled with special techniques. These meltdowns are not something that a special needs child will simply outgrow by having another year to get older.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion that kids should be 5 before kindy and it is certainly your right to make that desicion for your kids. But not every parent and school district agree. Early entry can be the right choice for several reasons, ranging from a child who is academically advanced to one who will receive more approriate services in kindy than a preschool program. That is for the school and the parents of those children to decide.

My son is placed in an Autism classroom, but the plan is for him to begin partial mainstreaming during the second quarter, which starts in a couple of weeks. He will have a one-on-one aide when he is the typical classroom. The statements in this thread are part of the reason I am very nervous about this. Some parent volunteer will probably see my child's behavior and his aide and make judgements about him without really knowing much about who he is and how far he has come.

[niccig]

hmmm . . . I see all sides here in terms of when to start school. I have to admit I am a little horrified by what some kindys expect and I (personally) on an educational outcomes basis do not agree with early reading instruction - - if I had my way DS would do all puzzles, blocks, stories, and games until he was 7 or 8. Yet, I don't think I am going to be able to find a public or private kindy that agrees with me in the United States. :)


DS's school is much like this. When asked about reading on the tour, the teacher said that no one asks what age you started to read. She said some children are ready earlier and others later, but generally it's around middle of grade 1 for most kids. And they won't push reading until the child shows signs of readiness.

[egoldber]

I do think that the transition to all day school can be very rough for some kids. I did seek out a private half day K for Sarah for that reason. But Amy will be VERY ready for all day K. For kids who are used to all day child care, even "full day" K is less time than they usually spend in child care.


the teacher said that no one asks what age you started to read. She said some children are ready earlier and others later, but generally it's around middle of grade 1 for most kids. And they won't push reading until the child shows signs of readiness.

I think that is all true. But on the flip side, when you have a kid who is very advanced in reading and they are still teaching basic phonics in first grade, it can be very hard on some kids. If you have a kid who is "immature" and young for grade, but advanced academically, it is not so easy to say to just hold them back or that it's a "gift of time". For some kids that "gift" can be torture to endure. It's just not that easy to make a blanket decision about what is right.

I hear the stuff about early elementary being overly academic and I don't see it. I *do* think that the behavioral expectation that 5, 6, and 7 year olds will sit nicely at desks, not talk out of turn and not fidget at circle time is over the top.

Um, am I bitter much? ;)

[ncat]

I am so thankful we have a Dec 31st cutoff. I don't know what we'd do with DD id she couldn't goto K this year. Her daycare teachers told us pretty much the same thing this summer - I don't think we could have sent her there for a third year of preschool. Several in her class of 24 started school at 4 and I suspect there are one or 2 kids a few days younger than her.

I was in a panic about what we'd do when DH interviewed for a job in California this summer (She would have just missed the Dec 2 cutoff) and was thankful that it didn't work out.

I don't like strict cutoffs. I think that kids with birthdays from Sept 1 - Dec 31st should be evaluated and the parents and school decide together if they should go at 4 or wait until 5.

[mytwosons]

My son is placed in an Autism classroom, but the plan is for him to begin partial mainstreaming during the second quarter, which starts in a couple of weeks. He will have a one-on-one aide when he is the typical classroom. The statements in this thread are part of the reason I am very nervous about this. Some parent volunteer will probably see my child's behavior and his aide and make judgements about him without really knowing much about who he is and how far he has come.

:hug: ASD is a hard enough road to travel. You shouldn't have to worry about people lacking empathy. While I do see the need and value of parent volunteers (and volunteer in the classroom myself), I often wish the only people allowed in the classroom or around the kids were paid staff and teachers who weren't worried about their own child in the class.

[StantonHyde]

I was glad we had a Sept cutoff. DS's bday is in Oct 1 and he was NOT ready to go to K. I do think it is a fair expectation for kids at 6&7 to sit still. But someone else could say it is a fair expectation for all kids to be reading in K. I think our bias is with what OUR children can do.

[egoldber]

I do think it is a fair expectation for kids at 6&7 to sit still

I think that many 6 and 7 year olds can sit still. It is also developmentally normal for some not to be able to. I think it is very hard for many kids to sit still for a 7 hour day with only a 15 minute recess, which may be taken away for not sitting still.

[mamicka]

Wow. Sounds like the school needs to be reminded what privacy is.
really big :yeahthat:


But on the flip side, when you have a kid who is very advanced in reading and they are still teaching basic phonics in first grade, it can be very hard on some kids. If you have a kid who is "immature" and young for grade, but advanced academically, it is not so easy to say to just hold them back or that it's a "gift of time". For some kids that "gift" can be torture to endure. It's just not that easy to make a blanket decision about what is right.

I hear the stuff about early elementary being overly academic and I don't see it. I *do* think that the behavioral expectation that 5, 6, and 7 year olds will sit nicely at desks, not talk out of turn and not fidget at circle time is over the top.

I agree with you, Beth. On my own tanget, frankly, I get really tired of hearing all the comments about early readers & the implications that the parents made them that way before they were ready, or that it actually means nothing. You know what, some kids read early & are phenominal readers. Sometimes it is a sign that they're exceptionally smart & need teachers to actually teach to their level & not just let them go along with their peers until everyone evens out. Feel free to flame me if you must, but I'm just over it.


:hug: ASD is a hard enough road to travel. You shouldn't have to worry about people lacking empathy. While I do see the need and value of parent volunteers (and volunteer in the classroom myself), I often wish the only people allowed in the classroom or around the kids were paid staff and teachers who weren't worried about their own child in the class.

Gena, I'm sorry you have that extra worry about ignorant people. I truly am. :hug:

[niccig]

I think that is all true. But on the flip side, when you have a kid who is very advanced in reading and they are still teaching basic phonics in first grade, it can be very hard on some kids.

I hear the stuff about early elementary being overly academic and I don't see it. I *do* think that the behavioral expectation that 5, 6, and 7 year olds will sit nicely at desks, not talk out of turn and not fidget at circle time is over the top.



I agree with the difficulties for a child that is academically advanced, but has to stay with the level of work for the rest of the class. DS's school doesn't start teaching reading until they think a child is ready for it, so they have some kids where it is phonics and other kids are reading. I haven't seen it in practice yet, only 1 month into pre-K, but other parents have spoken highly about it. Only time will tell if it works for DS and if the school does what they say they do.

And I agree on the behavioral expectations. I go crazy if I have to sit all the time with only a short recess break.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I think that many 6 and 7 year olds can sit still. It is also developmentally normal for some not to be able to. I think it is very hard for many kids to sit still for a 7 hour day with only a 15 minute recess, which may be taken away for not sitting still.

:yeahthat: Which is why I refused to send ds to a school with no recess. He now has 2 recesses/ day and they go on regular hikes and outdoor excursions. Also, lots and lots and lots of research show that kids do better if they are moving. They recommend things like 5 minute exercise breaks throughout the day or even sitting on balance balls vs chairs. One school we went to said they had no problem with squirmy boys and expected them to be that way. I am always happy to find a teacher that doesn' have rigid age expectations and are willing to work with individual children.

Beth

[jamesmom]

I know this is the BP but I guess I'm a little sensitive to this too because DS went to Kindergarten on time though he barely made the cutoff. He was 4 when he started Kindergarten. DS has special needs but did not qualify for services through early intervention so going to public kindergarten where he could receive the services he needed was probably the best place to be. The school did not see the need to hold him back and that was after he received a neuropsych evaluation and observation in the pre-k classroom. If that's the school's cutoff date, then the school and school district should be ready for those kids.

[JenaW]

I can see both sides of this issue, having kids on both ends of the spectrum. Our just-turned-5yo DD is exceptionally bright and has been reading (on her own, with NO pushing or extra motivation from us) since early last year. She simply picked it up by watching us help her older brother with his reading skills. She also can do basic addition and subtraction, again by watching her older brother and picking up his worksheets after he did them. One of her preschool teachers actually commented that she could skip K and go right to 1st grade with her brother. Having a Sept 28 birthday, she is already one of the youngest in her class, and now in K with a few 6yos who were redshirted, so we would never put her ahead more. However, her K class has a very wide range of abilities, with some kids still not even knowing all their letters. So now we are struggling with keeping her challenged and out of trouble from sheer boredom. The class only has 10 kids (she is at a Catholic school), so only one teacher. I sometimes privately wish that some of the older, redshirted boys were in public school because it seems obvious to me that the need additional help. However, it is obnoxious and presumptious of me to assume that they do not belong there, or that they are not just as deserving of the Catholic eduction that I wish my children to have.

On the other hand, our 4yo DD (Natalie, our former 25 week preemie) is in PK3 again for a second year. We are starting to see some drastic emotional and "soft" neurologic issues emerge with her, and are very worried about how she is going to progress in school. She has some severe sensory issues too and is very easily overstimulated, especially in a classroom situation where there is so much to see and take in. During an orientation class, a combination of things set her off (a fire alarm test in the building, another 3 yo old's meltdown with LOUD shrieking cries, and a heavy book falling on the floor) and she completely flipped out. She started screaming and throwing things when another child tried to take away a toy she was playing with. I'd like to think that in any other situation, she could have dealt with it more appropriately, as she and her siblings are able to share quite well. However, I was involved in conversation across the room and missed the signs of her being overwhelmed/overstimulated and was unable to prevent the situation. I guess that it why we are sending her to school, because she needs to learn to adapt to these situations herself, without me or a therapist removing or redirecting her before they occur. I overheard another parent commenting on my child's "terrible" behavior, wondering out loud what kind of home situation she comes from to make her act like that in school! It was all I could do to not punch that women in the mouth, grab my child, and run out the door. To the OP, I understand your frustration. I truly do. And I understand that this is the BP, and you are allowed, even encouraged, to come here to vent your frustrations. You are probably feeling pretty attacked right now too. We are all quick to jump to conclusions at some point in our life. It is hard not to. But I caution you to try and withhold judgement until you know the entire situation. To most people, our daughter looks like any other child her age (well, maybe a bit younger than her age as she is still quite small). But it often feels to us (and probably to her as well) that she is a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode. Being born 15 weeks too early, and spending the first 4+ months of her life in an extremely stressful environment (the NICU), experiencing numerous medical procedures, including CPR at one point, her brain is just not "normal" and probably never will be. But she is our daughter, and we love her, and want to give her every chance at a normal life. When she transition from EI to the school services, they strongly discouraged us from keeping her in PK3 for two years, even though that was always our intention. Her due date was Dec 26th, so had she been born full-term she would have not met the cut-off (which is Dec 1 here) anyway. We felt that putting her in a very social, organized play type of preschool last year, and than a slightly more academic pk3 this year would help her out. Socially it has. However, I can not imagine how she would be right now if we had been forced to place her in PK4. She is certainly not ready for that, even though age-wise (she turned 4 on Sept 17th) she qualifies for it. At her IEP meeting, the school officials really pushed me to let her continue, even though both her OT and I felt it would be detrimental. It was ONLY the lack of funding and lack of assurance that they could provide her with an aide that convinced them to let me keep her back but still allow her to obtain services. So please give this family the benefit of the doubt. I am sure they too want what is best for their own child, just as you do for yours.

[sste]

Mamicka, my issue isn't with early reading, its with early reading instruction. I just don't see the evidence of long-term outcomes, especially compared with countries that do not do this and report much better outcomes. In my ideal world, DS would spend kindy and first grade playing and interacting, engaging in creative and dramatic play and music, and in learning pre-math skills through games and toys (not just counting but beginning to understand the concepts of correspondence, taking away, matching and patterns, etc.). It is my understanding that these pre-math skills are excellent predictors of later elementary outcomes in both reading and math. Also, I want him to have fun and run around. I know very few adults who can't read but I know alot of overweight ones. :)

All this said, I may change my tune if DS age 2 continues at his current pace of asking me to read 20-30 books per day. I am losing my voice!

[StantonHyde]

What kind of school has kids in desks for 7 hours a day??? And teachers who take away recess are stupid--that's the only way to get kids to run off excess energy. DS's school is certainly desk oriented but he goes to different classes-music, art, social studies on certain days of the week and they still have PE several times a week.

The bottom line is that I am willing to say its ok for kids to wiggle if it is ok that my kid couldn't read at the end of kindergarten. But somehow that is a disaster and we spend lots of money on tutors etc to help him out. The good news is that we now know he some dyslexia--but not enough to get accommodations or intervention services from the schools.

Schools are geared for the middle third or so of children and we are all asking for a school that can meet the needs of kids on different ends of the spectrum--in different areas. Unfortunately, in most of the gifted/talented programs they assume kids will be very mature (I think it would often be the opposite myself--being a nerd and knowing all the nerds I do!). And for kids with reading or math issues, my child can't get in because he is not a "behavior problem".

I am lucky because we were able to find a private school that is going to meet my son's needs and because I can afford all the tutoring.

And on the flip side, I think it is also ok for kids to learn how to fit in. Sometimes, yes it can be devastating to kids but they learn coping mechanisms. (I used to bring a book to school and put in my lap and read it while the teacher explained the math problems to the other kids. I learned to grin an bear it when the teacher reprimanded me over and over for my wretched hand writing). I struggle with how much do I expect the world to allow my child to reach his full potential vs. the need for him to learn to cope with the world.

[Melanie]

There is a boy in my DS's Kindergarten class who does not belong there. Technicaly, he can be there, since his birthday makes the cut off date...but just bearly. He is still 4! He doesn't turn 5 until December. He is still a toddler! He is not mature enough to sit through the class, and listen to a story, even. I volunteer in the class, one day a week, for one hour. While I was there, he threw a tantrum, and HIT the teacher! This is a public school, so the school has to accomdate him, by providing him a full time aide to monitor his behavior. Full time assistants should go to kids who really do have special needs, not kids that just aren't mature enough. The public school is strained cost wise to begin with (which is why they have parent voulnteers).

It does make me sad for him, because it's not his fault that he was started in Kindergarten. His parents shouldn't be using the classroom for his daycare.

I think it's a fault of the school district. Our public cut-offs are similiar, here, and I just can't imagine how it works! Then you have the parents who decided to "start their child late," So you have 4 year olds and 6 year olds and they expect them to do academics? Crazy!

[KBecks]

Sorry you had a bad day at school.

[egoldber]

What kind of school has kids in desks for 7 hours a day??? And teachers who take away recess are stupid-

A LOT of schools. And every teacher she has had has taken away recess as a punishment. This is very common. I have a friend whose son has cerebral palsy, several diagnosed learning disabilities and an IEP and they STILL make him stay in at recess to "finish his work" even though his IEP forbids this. They have had SEVERAL meetings with the teacher, principal, school counselor, etc. and it still happens. The inertia around this is strong.


And on the flip side, I think it is also ok for kids to learn how to fit in. Sometimes, yes it can be devastating to kids but they learn coping mechanisms. (I used to bring a book to school and put in my lap and read it while the teacher explained the math problems to the other kids. I learned to grin an bear it when the teacher reprimanded me over and over for my wretched hand writing). I struggle with how much do I expect the world to allow my child to reach his full potential vs. the need for him to learn to cope with the world.

Well send me back to kindergarten. *I* have a VERY hard time sitting in a class that is too slow paced. I think it's a form of torture. But as an adult, I have options. I can step out for awhile, drop the class, multi-task (discretely), etc. All of these options are forbidden to children. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect children to learn coping mechanisms, but NOT to have mastered them and not to be punished for not being able to use them all the time.

[ett]

Chiming in late to the discussion but if there is an aide for this child then he is most likely receiving special services through an IEP. I don't know if it depends on the state, but in our school, if you make the cutoff for the school year, you have to go into that grade to continue to receive services. They cannot hold a child back for a year. And there can also be modifications like needing a shorter school day.