Southwest kicks mom, cranky kid off flight

[kransden]

Well....
Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33555007/?gt1=43001

[ha98ed14]

I may get flamed, but if I had to deal with that kid, well, one word...
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.
.
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Benadryl!

[Joolsplus2]

Except for the kids that Benadryl makes SCREAM. I still have nightmares of it doing that to my toddler 10 years ago, lol. Longest 5 hours of my life. I'll risk being flamed for recommending lollipops ;)

[kransden]

I may get flamed, but if I had to deal with that kid, well, one word...Benadryl!
That didn't work for my dd. :(
I know lol, I tried it. :)

[codex57]

Yeah, Benadryl makes some kids crazy. But you gotta try something. Candy even.

Sure some kids are inconsolable, but there are MANY people who have no parenting and/or disciplinary skills whatsoever. We have shows like Super Nanny showing this. This may have been a case where the FAs were a little too strict, but you can't rule out an unruly monster with a parent who doesn't try/notice.

Unless I'm there personally, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the airline. There are 6 toddler aged boys and up in my extended family. We got some monsters too. While I love my BIL/SIL, the set with the monsters have them cuz they're quite a bit lacking in the discipline dept.

[egoldber]

That is just nuts. How exactly is "discipline" supposed to stop a 2 year old from saying "Go plane go" and "I want Daddy". That could so easily have been me.

That poor woman. :(

[Melanie]

I'm thinking she did benadryl or sugar that kid up in the airport, probably waiting for a flight delay and trying to keep him happy, and then they got on the plane and he went nutso from all the airport garbage.

I have no solutions. NO one wants to be on a flight with a kid who has a bundle of energy, but what else is mom supposed to do? I do think they ought to comp her the night away, but she just might have one of those kids who can't stay still and what difference will the next day make?

I suppose if it were me, I'd go to the ped to try to get a sedative if I truly HAD to fly somewhere with a child like that (I am assuming he is). Of couse, my kids don't get nuts on benadryl so in my case I could use that and would have no qualms doing so. Heck, if we did fly again soon I just might try that on my 4 yo on GP. I rarely give her meds for illness, even, but a cooped-up plane ride is cause in my book.

[kijip]

Tho poll is running 80% to 20% that the airline did the right thing. If you want a laugh (at some, I assume mostly childless, people's ignorance of child development and bizarre explanations of how 2 year olds "should" act 100% of the time) read the comments. Insanity: easy to find on online poll comments. :)

[kransden]

It might have been a perfectly normal 2 year old, who was having a bad day due to lack of sleep or some other reason. I must admit as a person I secretly wish Robbie Rotten would be thrown off the plane so I could have some peace (along with stinky man, perfume woman and extremely obese person that flows into my seat) but as a mom I know there is typically nothing you can do and I feel sorry for the mother.

Has anyone noticed that this always seems to be on Southwest flights?

[Joolsplus2]

Yeah, a yelling 2 yo is probably preferable to the dirty-denim-clad drunk people I had to sit next to once :p

[daphne]

My local paper indicated that the airline issued an apology, a refund, and a $300 voucher.

[LexyLou]

This pisses me off. What give the flight attendants the right to decide who can and can't fly if they aren't possing a risk to the flight? I understand someone who is drunk but a screaming kid? Sure, it's annoying but is it threatening? The pilots can't even hear him.

Not only that, most kids quiet down once the plane gets in the air.

I fly often with my girls-mostly cross country and we've have some bad experiences with them freaking out in the beginning because they don't want to sit. Especially at 2 years old. That's a horrible age for flying because they have to be in their own seat but they don't totally get the rules.

I hope those flight attendants get suspended. If I were a passenger on that flight, I'd be more pissed at the flight attendants for delaying my flight to go back to the gate than the screaming kid.

Oh and Benadryl just makes my kids grumpy. It's worse when we give it to them because they fight the sleep but are pissed because they are tired.

[mommy111]

I can totally see how hard it may be, I've had DD after a looong international flight, given candy by another mom at airport after flight delay, then totally freaking out in a flight. Fortunately the flight attendants were more understanding and her tantrum was limited to screaming blue murder but allowing herself to be strapped in the seat all the while crying and screaming no for 10 mins. And this is even though DD is usually a pretty calm child.

[squimp]

Except for the kids that Benadryl makes SCREAM. I still have nightmares of it doing that to my toddler 10 years ago, lol. Longest 5 hours of my life. I'll risk being flamed for recommending lollipops ;)

Don't try Benadryl for the first time on a flight. I could have been that mom - DD would not stop screaming.

[edurnemk]

I've experienced far more annoying passengers than a loud restless toddler. Such as the idiot who listened to heavy metal music on his laptop at a high volume the entire 4 hour flight, he wouldn't wear the headphones, so we ALL had to listen to his music, why don't people like that get kicked of the plane? He's old enough to understand rules, a 2 year old isn't.

From the few details on the article I don't agree with the airline.

[infomama]

If this is the whole story, I am in shock.

[hez]

Yeah, a yelling 2 yo is probably preferable to the dirty-denim-clad drunk people I had to sit next to once :p

I had a row full of drunkenness behind me on a 7 hour flight once... And on a 2 hour flight, the man next to me was so drunk he wet himself.

Give me a loud toddler anytime :)

[egoldber]

Oh yes, the last time I flew Southwest there was an EXTREMELY drunk woman behind me on the flight who was agitated and highly belligerent. If people like that are not kicked off, then toddlers certainly get a free pass!

[maestramommy]

If this is the whole story, I am in shock.
:yeahthat: There are no details here, but it sounds like the airline was WAY too hasty. That could've been my 2.5 yo. She's a sweet kid and usually very well behaved, but when her ire is up, she is so loud her howls could wake the dead.

I'll bet the airline knew it, since they compensated the woman so quickly.

[bubbaray]

That is just nuts. How exactly is "discipline" supposed to stop a 2 year old from saying "Go plane go" and "I want Daddy". That could so easily have been me.

That poor woman. :(

That WAS us on a 6hr flight from Vancouver to Maui last January. I still cringe thinking about it.

FWIW, on that flight, I tried benadryl (usually knocks DD#2 out), tylenol, all different types of candy and food. NOTHING worked.

[goldenpig]

How exactly are you supposed to "shut up" a 2 year old? Unfortunately they don't come with an on-off switch. I took mine on a flight to San Diego last week on Southwest and it was BAD--she kept crying and crying no matter what I did to distract her. And she's normally a very good traveller. Doesn't even sound like this kid was crying! Lucky we didn't get kicked off.

What's even worse than the story is that you should see all the anti "breeder" comments on SFGate. Ugly. There's tons of kid haters around here and they all seem to forget that their parents were "breeders".

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/10/30/national/a131146D90.DTL

[stella]

Am I the first to admit that I have no control over my 2 year old? That, and I have no idea how to discipline him. And he's my 3rd child, so I am NOT inexperienced. He is just in a rough phase lately!

[bubbaray]

I read some of those comments on the Gate. OMG. I am just shocked. I work with a bunch of child-haters. But, come on.

WHAT exactly is a "real" parent supposed to do to stop a 2yo (or any age child) in a tantrum?

[wellyes]

I don't know. I've flown with DD a bunch of times, and the flight crews always have been (or at least give the appearance of) extreme niceness and patience to parents of young kids. They face it every day. I think this kid must've been on a real tear.

I'm not a child hater but --- I can see why an exceptionally disruptive child would be kicked off. I believe that experienced flight crews *should* have the discretion to get rid of passengers who will cause a strong disturbance to all the other fliers.

That doesn't mean the mom did anything wrong, or that the kid was raised wrong, or anything like that.

Is it more fair to let a kid behave appropriately but disruptively because the mom paid for a ticket? Or is it more fair to be unfair to that one mom and child if it will stop the flight from being terrible for everyone else? I can definitely see both sides.

[bubbaray]

I've flown with DD a bunch of times, and the flight crews always have been (or at least give the appearance of) extreme niceness and patience to parents of young kids.


Absolutely the opposite of our experience. Cabin crews visibly cringe when people with children board.

I've not really ever experienced extreme niceness or patience from a cabin crew ever -- even before kids.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I don't know. I've flown with DD a bunch of times, and the flight crews always have been (or at least give the appearance of) extreme niceness and patience to parents of young kids. They face it every day. I think this kid must've been on a real tear.

I'm not a child hater but --- I can see why an exceptionally disruptive child would be kicked off. I believe that experienced flight crews *should* have the discretion to get rid of passengers who will cause a strong disturbance to all the other fliers.

That doesn't mean the mom did anything wrong, or that the kid was raised wrong, or anything like that.

Is it more fair to let a kid behave appropriately but disruptively because the mom paid for a ticket? Or is it more fair to quell the disturbance , or is it more fair to be unfair to that one mom and child if it will stop the flight from being terrible for everyone else? I can definitely see both sides.

:yeahthat: good post, i completely agree.

I think it's unfair to say that the crew who made the decision to kick the kid off the flight must have been "child haters". I'm sure many of the passengers/crew member on that flight had kids themselves, doesn't necessarily mean they want to listen to someone else's screaming child for several hours.

[egoldber]

The kindest flight attendant ever on a Delta flight brought my kids handsful of candy while we were stuck on a tarmac in Baltimore for two hours waiting for a thunderstorm to blow over. Sarah was fine, but Amy was just HYSTERICAL. Screaming and crying and flailing all over. An FA snuck back and dumped a handful of candy in my lap. I could have kissed her.

Yes, I had snacks and drinks and toys, but it was not cutting it. Two KitKats later she was at least not as unhappy.

[kwc]

Apparently the mom's strategy was to keep the kid hungry and then feed
him during take-off to help his ears... a strategy that I imagine most of us
here would not consider a wise one...
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_13671032


We've flown with our kids _a lot_. Sometimes they are great travelers, sometimes not
so much. I think that most passengers and FAs have been fairly understanding
about our screaming kid when they've seen me or DH falling all over ourselves to try to get them to settle down by food, bribery, games, etc. Many other passengers have tried to help me entertain the offending child, and I try to do the same (and my now 6 year DD helps DS and some other children as well).

I do think people can be VERY judgmental (myself included) when it doesn't look like the parents are making any effort. On a recent 5 hour flight, there was a family of 4 next to us who had a 2 year old who _screamed_ for 4 of the 5 hours... and at some point their 4 or 5 year old became screaming as well out of exhaustion or frustration... but the parents didn't _seem_ to be doing anything... one was reading a magazine and the other was listening to an iPod. The FAs came by with toys and drinks (we were the beneficiaries as well) and at one point DD actually turned to me and said, "Why don't they get up and try to walk her around? Should I offer her some Cheddar Bunnies? Or crayons?"

Without really knowing what was going on, I don't want to come down on SW or the FAs too hard... or on the mom. But I wonder if the child either appeared inconsolable OR the mom did not appear to be making the effort to console him.

ETA: I would not take the sfgate.com comments seriously. My kids were born in SF and in many ways it's one of the most child-unfriendly places you can imagine. But that site especially attracts trolls... you would not believe how many trolls there are that constantly comment on their parenting blog, "The Poop."

[egoldber]

Apparently the mom's strategy was to keep the kid hungry and then feed
him during take-off to help his ears... a strategy that I imagine most of us
here would not consider a wise one...

Actually I do this and it usually works well. Feeding the kids on the plane is my primary form of entertainment for them. If they are stuffed before we get on the flight, we're screwed. I mean I don't starve them ahead of time, but we eat lightly before hand and then give them a lot of food on the plane.

[tmarie]

That is just nuts. How exactly is "discipline" supposed to stop a 2 year old from saying "Go plane go" and "I want Daddy". That could so easily have been me.

That poor woman. :(


I couldn't have said it better. I have two fabulous girls but either one of them could have a bad day and that could be me.

tmarie

[sste]

I fly alot and I fly southwest alot because its cheap and I love small airports with a kid. However, I have long had suspicions that Southwest is trying to discourage babies and small kids on their flights.

They don't allow preboarding and even refused to let me preboard or provide boarding assistance when DS was three months old and I was traveling alone and clearly struggling. I told them I was fine with going to the back of the plane but I really needed to get DS settled and feed him and needed help with our carry-ons. They told me he had to be handicapped to preboard - - and were not persuaded by my pointing out he couldn't walk or lift his head. The whole thing was so egregious that when I finally staggered onto the plane with DS, his carrier, and our bags a FELLOW PASSENGER gave up his front row aisle seat for DS and I and loaded our bags in the overhead and went to the back of the plane!

[skygoddess]

My local paper indicated that the airline issued an apology, a refund, and a $300 voucher.

According to the following news article, the apology wasn't much of an apology, just a 'sorry for the inconvenience', but that Southwest stood by their decision to remove her:

http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_13680219

[codex57]

It might have been a perfectly normal 2 year old, who was having a bad day due to lack of sleep or some other reason. I must admit as a person I secretly wish Robbie Rotten would be thrown off the plane so I could have some peace (along with stinky man, perfume woman and extremely obese person that flows into my seat) but as a mom I know there is typically nothing you can do and I feel sorry for the mother.

Has anyone noticed that this always seems to be on Southwest flights?

Cuz Southwest isn't afraid of pissing off individual customers. They'd rather make everyone else happy and piss off the one causing the problem and make it up to them later. Goodwill with the 100+ others, and if the compensation is enough, salvage goodwill with the one they piss off.

Sure it could have been a normal 2 yr old who was just having a bad day. I'm just saying you can't automatically jump to that conclusion. If you've ever worked retail or done some other job where you interact with the general public, you see a lot of bad ones out there.

This might have just been an isolated incident for the child. Maybe the kid is constantly like that. Maybe it's the parents' fault, maybe it's just the terrible twos.

However, it's not any different than a drunk. Maybe the person always drinks. Maybe they just had a bad day and decided to get sloshed before the flight.

Either way, they can be a problem to the crew and the other passengers. You have to leave discretion up to the crew. Sometimes they're a bit hasty in our opinion, sometimes not. You still need to draw the line somewhere and Southwest isn't afraid of kicking them off first to spare the other passengers and then making it up to that person later with a voucher or whatever. That TV show about Southwest often shows agents removing drunks all the time. They don't target kids over drunks. Any time they use discretion, someone is gonna disagree with them. You may prefer a screaming kid over returning to the gate to remove them, but if you go on travel boards like flyertalk.com, the sentiment runs entirely the other way around. Someone out there is always gonna disagree with the choice a person makes when using discretion, but you still need to give the agent discretion.

I fully support Southwest in this.

[AshleyAnn]

I don't think this was a case as simple as a child yelling "go plane go" and "I want Daddy". Flight attendants do this job every day, they know about the normal tired, overwhelmed toddler tantrums and decided this child was so above and beyond that that they needed to turn a plane around and remove him from the plane. Its not easy to just turn a plane around on the tarmac (my DH is a pilot) you must get clearance from tower who must reroute other planes both on the ground and in the sky. Large airports generally have several airplanes all in 'the pattern' waiting for thier turn to come in or take off and suddenly deciding to return a plane to a gate is an organizational nightmare. I really doubt a flight attendant would request it, a pilot would agree its needed, or tower personal would authorize it for something as simple or as common as a crying child. I'm sure whatever was happening on board that aircraft was a serious offense that needed to be handled for the safery of the other passangers not just their comfort.

I also question the request for the reimbursement of the cost of the portacrib because she had to spend ANOTHER night away from home at her parents. What was her child sleeping in the other nights?

[codex57]

I also question the request for the reimbursement of the cost of the portacrib because she had to spend ANOTHER night away from home at her parents. What was her child sleeping in the other nights?

I think everyone agrees that's BS. Just cuz she demanded it or bought it doesn't mean it was a necessity. I'm surprised she didn't bother asking for more crap and claim it was "needed" cuz of that extra night.

[himom]

I think everyone agrees that's BS. Just cuz she demanded it or bought it doesn't mean it was a necessity. I'm surprised she didn't bother asking for more crap and claim it was "needed" cuz of that extra night.

All her luggage, including the portacrib, stayed on the plane and went home without her. She had just her carry-ons to go back to her parents home with.

I've heard that if a flight attendant wants to kick someone off, the pilot cannot override them (I think this came up when the flight attendant removed the woman who was breast feeding). So if the pilots have no say, there can also be cases where person who is having a bad day (and a tantrum) is the flight attendant. Sometimes some people just have too much power.

I think a passenger has to be 1) harming another passenger, 2) directly disobeying the (reasonable) instructions of the flight attendant, or 3)endangering the plane before anyone should be allowed to kick them off.

Otherwise, you easily end up with crazy, power-tripping people like that woman who ordered the Mom to give her child Benadryl. Remember that one? I would have Benadryled that flight attendant right upside the head.

But then, I'm different. =)

[TwinFoxes]

I don't think the child's behavior means the mom's a bad mom, or he's a bad kid. But I also think there's more to the story, and to jump to conclusions that the flight attendants are child-haters, or power hungry is just as wrong as jumping to conclusions about the mom and her kid.

The article I read said the flight attendants brought the kid juice and crayons, to try to soothe him, but it didn't work. It also said that they removed him because other passengers couldn't hear the safety announcements. Flight attendants do have a job to do, which is to keep all the passengers safe, they're not flying hostesses.

I flew a lot in my former job. I've seen flight attendants deal with drunks, I've never been on a plane where a drunk person was out of control and shouting and flight attendants did nothing. Usually they are pre-emptive and shut people down right away, including taking them off the flight before it took off. I've been on planes that landed and federal agents come in and arrested people and took them off the plane because they became disorderly in the air. Flight attendants have a hard job. It's like being a cop, waitress and customer service representative rolled into one. I could never do that job, no matter how many jaunty scarves I got to wear! ;)

I don't know if it's true that pilots can't over ride flight attendants, but why should they be able to? The flight attendants are the ones who are actually dealing with the passengers, while the pilots are in their little cocoon. I'm not sure why their judgment of a given situation would be better than the flight attendants'. From what I understand, pilots aren't FA's bosses. Along the same lines, I'm glad for the FA's sake that Southwest apologized, but stood behind the FA's decision to kick the mom and toddler off of the plane. Imagine doing what you think is right for the safety of your passengers, and then being berated by management. I'm glad that's not what happened...it would make FAs more hesitant to confront the difficult situations they are faced with every day.

I feel bad for the mom. We're planning on flying this Christmas, and I'm really worried. If I tried not feeding my kids it would NOT work, they do not do well hungry. I'm sure it works for others (Beth), but not mine (and not the woman's who got kicked off either, I guess!) And they are at that age where things could go either way, and little S is afraid of strange noises. So if you see a sobbing woman and a distraught man with twin girls being dragged off a Southwest plane on the way to Detroit, think kind thoughts about me!

[MamaMolly]

I could so easily be one of *those* moms and DD one of *those* kids. DD is usually a great traveler but there was one flight that changed her life in regards to candy. We had 2 more connecting flights after that one and I kept her supplied in gummies, lollies, chewing gum, smarties, oreos, you name it. If I could get it in her mouth to shut her up I did it. She was a perfect angel on those other flights.

I never wanted to be one of those moms who ignored her kid during a melt down, but this summer I learned a lot about what happens to my parenting skills when the stress levels just get too high. I keep my stink-eye to myself these days.

The mom has my sympathy, as do the others on the flight. If they truly couldn't hear the safety instructions I think the FAs did the right thing.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

I don't think the child's behavior means the mom's a bad mom, or he's a bad kid. But I also think there's more to the story, and to jump to conclusions that the flight attendants are child-haters, or power hungry is just as wrong as jumping to conclusions about the mom and her kid.

The article I read said the flight attendants brought the kid juice and crayons, to try to soothe him, but it didn't work. It also said that they removed him because other passengers couldn't hear the safety announcements. Flight attendants do have a job to do, which is to keep all the passengers safe, they're not flying hostesses.

I flew a lot in my former job. I've seen flight attendants deal with drunks, I've never been on a plane where a drunk person was out of control and shouting and flight attendants did nothing. Usually they are pre-emptive and shut people down right away, including taking them off the flight before it took off. I've been on planes that landed and federal agents come in and arrested people and took them off the plane because they became disorderly in the air. Flight attendants have a hard job. It's like being a cop, waitress and customer service representative rolled into one. I could never do that job, no matter how many jaunty scarves I got to wear! ;)

I don't know if it's true that pilots can't over ride flight attendants, but why should they be able to? The flight attendants are the ones who are actually dealing with the passengers, while the pilots are in their little cocoon. I'm not sure why their judgment of a given situation would be better than the flight attendants'. From what I understand, pilots aren't FA's bosses. Along the same lines, I'm glad for the FA's sake that Southwest apologized, but stood behind the FA's decision to kick the mom and toddler off of the plane. Imagine doing what you think is right for the safety of your passengers, and then being berated by management. I'm glad that's not what happened...it would make FAs more hesitant to confront the difficult situations they are faced with every day.



I agree. Those who are quick point fingers at the airline for being "child haters" forget that flight attendants and the crew have RULES to follow in order to protect the safety of all passengers on board. If the kid was so loud & disruptive that others couldn't hear safety instructions, then that's a problem. Crew members should not be expected to bend the rules just because they feel sorry for this particular mom and her kid.

Once I was on a 6-hour transatlantic flight leaving from London to NY. The security at the London airport was so insanely crazy (due to the recent terrorist attacks etc) that all of us coming from a connecting flight had to literally sprint across half the airport to make it to our gate on time. There was a large family (like 8 people) that was also on the same flights as us, and shortly after we all boarded the plane, one of the older ladies in that family threw up all over her seat , i guess mainly out of sheer exhaustion from all the running we had to do to make the flight on time (i was less than half her age and I felt like yakking as well, that's how much we had to hurry to the gate). Well, anyway, the crew basically told the woman she had to get off the plane, because the rules said that on transatlantic flights they could not allow any passenger to board that appeared to be really ill. The woman's husband started arguing with the crew, insisting that even though she had been puking she was really ok, she just was tired/dehydrated from the running, etc. They were adamant though, they were saying that what if she got seriously sick midway through the flight, there would be nothing they could do since we would be in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. Anyway, the woman's entire family had to deboard the plane (since this woman was somewhat older and had limited english, she couldn't really travel by herself), and they were all very upset. Now I can totally understand their frustration as it wasn't their fault the woman got sick, and their whole family had to make other travel arrangements on the spot. However, I fully support the airline crew's decision to remove the woman, it's not like they were being mean or heartless or anything, they just have to enforce the rules, that's all. Imagine if they had allowed the woman to board and she somehow got seriously sick (or even died) mid-flight and it was discovered that she had appeared ill before boarding the flight, yet the crew allowed her to board. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[codex57]

All her luggage, including the portacrib, stayed on the plane and went home without her. She had just her carry-ons to go back to her parents home with.

So ask for toothbrushes, toothpaste, diapers/underwear, etc. The incidentals. At most, a couple of bottles. Stuff you absolutely need to make it thru the next day in semi-decent condition.

I'm surprised she didn't ask for a Bugaboo stroller while she was at it.

Edit: Looks like she was compensated to the tune of $300. That's more than enough for a few diapers.