Is this term ok?

[hillview]

My boss keeps talking about "The Asians" when he had a meeting with folks from China, Japan and Singapore. Is that appropriate? It makes me somewhat uncomfortable.
/hillary

[TwinFoxes]

It seems like it would be better if he called them "our clients from Asia" or "our colleagues from the Asian office".

[hillview]

It seems like it would be better if he called them "our clients from Asia" or "our colleagues from the Asian office".

THANK YOU. I am going to suggest this to him.
/hillary

[lizzywednesday]

My boss keeps talking about "The Asians" when he had a meeting with folks from China, Japan and Singapore. Is that appropriate? It makes me somewhat uncomfortable.
/hillary

While I like the PP's suggestion and think it's a bit more professional than just using a plural noun, I will say that it's a LOT better than referring to these folks as "Orientals" ... and, yes, I still know people who do that.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

While I like the PP's suggestion and think it's a bit more professional than just using a plural noun, I will say that it's a LOT better than referring to these folks as "Orientals" ... and, yes, I still know people who do that.

I HATE that. "Rugs are Oriental, people are Asian"

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

My boss keeps talking about "The Asians" when he had a meeting with folks from China, Japan and Singapore. Is that appropriate? It makes me somewhat uncomfortable.
/hillary

I wonder if it would bother you if he said The Europeans, if they were from the UK, France and Germany. For some reason, the Europeans would bother me less than the Asians...

[arivecchi]

My boss keeps talking about "The Asians" when he had a meeting with folks from China, Japan and Singapore. Is that appropriate? It makes me somewhat uncomfortable.
/hillary :shake: Terrible and so unprofessional! That would make me cringe. I like the "our clients from Asia" suggestion.

[kristenk]

Is it horrible if I think it's somewhat contextual? Like if your boss was saying "the Asians" to refer to the team spread out over Asia, "the Germans" to refer to the team in Germany and "the DC office" to refer to the team in DC, I'd be okay with that. It really depends on how he's using it. If he's using "the Asians" to lump a huge group of people together and give broad over-generalizations about everyone, I'd have a problem with that.

ETA: After further thinking, I think it's the s at the end of Asian that bothers me. I have no problem with Asian or European being used as descriptive terms and I think that I could probably find "the Asians" acceptable in *certain* situations, it just doesn't seem right in the vast majority of contexts.

[elektra]

For our work it's broken out by the "official" market/region.
So "Europeans" are EMEA (Europe, Middle East, Africa)
"Asians" APAC (Asia, Pacific)

So I would just say, "we had a call with the EMEA team today"

It does sound a little weird though to say " the Asians" to me, or even "the Europeans".
When DH's talks about meetings he has with Korea, he just says "we had a phone call with Korea today" vs. "the Koreans". Slight difference, I know but it just sounds more acceptable to me.

[vonfirmath]

I'm sure folks over there call us the "Americans" -- even when dealing with folk in Canada, United States, and Mexico. And that would not bother me. So I guess Asians doesn't bother me either as categorizing folk in several different country in the contenint (sp?) of Asia. Also "The Europeans" would not bother me when referring to folk in several countries in Europe.

And we certainly don't have any problem referring to groups as "Muslims" or "Christians" etc. Sometimes, a group label is necessary and I see nothing racist about this one. It has to do with where they live and work.

[rlu]

For our work it's broken out by the "official" market/region.
So "Europeans" are EMEA (Europe, Middle East, Africa)
"Asians" APAC (Asia, Pacific)

So I would just say, "we had a call with the EMEA team today"

It does sound a little weird though to say " the Asians" to me, or even "the Europeans".
When DH's talks about meetings he has with Korea, he just says "we had a phone call with Korea today" vs. "the Koreans". Slight difference, I know but it just sounds more acceptable to me.

All of elektra's post.

Refering to the office ("I need to call the UK today", "I was on the UK conference call") rather than the nationality of the people seems more correct and is what is said at our company. Elektra's example of "with Korea" vs "the Koreans" exactly. Our office is the North America office, not American.

eta: We write APAC but say "Asia-Pac"

[hellokitty]

Not ok. You don't say, "The Blacks," "The Jews," "The South Americans," or anything else along those lines about a group. What is wrong with saying, we got a call from the China acct, the Korean acct, etc.? "The Asians," sounds to me like it's an us vs. them situation. FWIW, while Asian is better than Oriental, a lot of Asians are sick and tired of being lumped into one big group. I get ppl who will ask, "what" I am, and when I tell them, they say, "Well, it doesn't matter, it's all the same anyway." No, you idiot, it's NOT the same. That would be like saying France and Germany are the same just b/c they are on the same continent.

[codex57]

Not ok. You don't say, "The Blacks," "The Jews," "The South Americans," or anything else along those lines about a group. What is wrong with saying, we got a call from the China acct, the Korean acct, etc.? "The Asians," sounds to me like it's an us vs. them situation. FWIW, while Asian is better than Oriental, a lot of Asians are sick and tired of being lumped into one big group. I get ppl who will ask, "what" I am, and when I tell them, they say, "Well, it doesn't matter, it's all the same anyway." No, you idiot, it's NOT the same. That would be like saying France and Germany are the same just b/c they are on the same continent.

See that depends.

If he's lumping them into groups, but does know the difference individually, I don't see a big deal. Like if there are European clients and he still calls them "the Europeans", then it's just a classification thing. In writing, like on a memo or something, it should be "the clients from Asia", but verbally as just a quickie description during a conversation, I don't see a problem with it. "The clients from Asia" is a lot wordier than "the Asians."

If there are clients from China, Korea, Japan, etc, as long as he knows the differences between them when he talks about one client in particular (like talking about a China account, he knows they're Chinese and doesn't call them "the Asians" cuz he can't tell the difference), then it's not a big deal.

"Orientals" is the more offensive term, altho I'm not really bothered by it. Look into the history behind it. It's more a descriptive term than a racial insult. It describes a region, and possibly denotes a period of time in that region. Like oriental rugs. Beautiful objects. A bit sensitive to get offended by a term that denotes a beautiful group of objects.

[TwinFoxes]

We can argue until the cows come home about whether something is racially insensitive. The fact of the matter is, he works in a business. Does he want his clients to hear him refer to them as "the Asians?" Does he want other clients to hear him refer to another group as "the Asians?" We can say someone shouldn't get offended, but the point is at least a few people on this board think the phrasing's a little off. I think it would be better from a business standpoint to be safe rather than sorry. I don't think the guy's a racist, or even necessarily insensitive, I just think he can use better phrasing.

It does bug me when people tell someone else they're being overly sensitive. Just because it doesn't bug you doesn't means someone else's feelings of offense aren't valid.

[arivecchi]

We can argue until the cows come home about whether something is racially insensitive. The fact of the matter is, he works in a business. Does he want his clients to hear him refer to them as "the Asians?" Does he want other clients to hear him refer to another group as "the Asians?" We can say someone shouldn't get offended, but the point is at least a few people on this board think the phrasing's a little off. I think it would be better from a business standpoint to be safe rather than sorry. I don't think the guy's a racist, or even necessarily insensitive, I just think he can use better phrasing.

It does bug me when people tell someone else they're being overly sensitive. Just because it doesn't bug you doesn't means someone else's feelings of offense aren't valid.:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat: My thoughts exactly.

[hellokitty]

See that depends.

If he's lumping them into groups, but does know the difference individually, I don't see a big deal. Like if there are European clients and he still calls them "the Europeans", then it's just a classification thing. In writing, like on a memo or something, it should be "the clients from Asia", but verbally as just a quickie description during a conversation, I don't see a problem with it. "The clients from Asia" is a lot wordier than "the Asians."

If there are clients from China, Korea, Japan, etc, as long as he knows the differences between them when he talks about one client in particular (like talking about a China account, he knows they're Chinese and doesn't call them "the Asians" cuz he can't tell the difference), then it's not a big deal.

"Orientals" is the more offensive term, altho I'm not really bothered by it. Look into the history behind it. It's more a descriptive term than a racial insult. It describes a region, and possibly denotes a period of time in that region. Like oriental rugs. Beautiful objects. A bit sensitive to get offended by a term that denotes a beautiful group of objects.

Wow, I can't believe you just said that. Nice. :irked:

[hillview]

We can argue until the cows come home about whether something is racially insensitive. The fact of the matter is, he works in a business. Does he want his clients to hear him refer to them as "the Asians?" Does he want other clients to hear him refer to another group as "the Asians?" We can say someone shouldn't get offended, but the point is at least a few people on this board think the phrasing's a little off. I think it would be better from a business standpoint to be safe rather than sorry. I don't think the guy's a racist, or even necessarily insensitive, I just think he can use better phrasing.

It does bug me when people tell someone else they're being overly sensitive. Just because it doesn't bug you doesn't means someone else's feelings of offense aren't valid.

Ok that -- thanks! We do have regions and AP and EMEA are how we describe them. I'd have been fine with "I just met with the team from AP" KWIM?
/hillary

[stillplayswithbarbies]

See that depends.
"Orientals" is the more offensive term, altho I'm not really bothered by it. Look into the history behind it. It's more a descriptive term than a racial insult. It describes a region, and possibly denotes a period of time in that region. Like oriental rugs. Beautiful objects. A bit sensitive to get offended by a term that denotes a beautiful group of objects.

Are you Asian? If not, then you don't get to determine if it is offensive or should bother someone who is.

You really think it is okay to refer to people as if they are objects and they shouldn't be bothered by that? Really?

[codex57]

Yes, I'm Asian. From one of the groups mentioned.

It's not that Oriental refers to a group of objects. Seriously people, just look up the word on Wiki or something. It refers to a region. The word became famous because some beautiful objects came from that region. It's NOT the same as the N word. Can some people take it offensively? Sure. There was some taking advantage by whites. But people take offense to all sorts of stupid reasons.

The thing that ticks me off is when people get all emotional about something when they ignore history. This actually leads into the Iraq War which goes to Vietnam War (again, an Asian thing), but I'm trying to leave as much politics as I can out of a thread about racism. But, you can be damn sure there are quite a number of Asians who are glad the US wasn't entirely made up of hippies; the same hippies (or their kids) who tend to be overly PC and ignore history (or just adapt parts that suit them).

[stillplayswithbarbies]

Wikipedia says:

"Random House's Guide to Sensitive Language states "Other words (e.g., Oriental, colored) are outdated or inaccurate." This Guide to Sensitive Language suggests the use of "Asian or more specific designation such as Pacific Islander, Chinese American, [or] Korean." [4] Merriam-Webster describes the term as "sometimes offensive,"[5] Encarta states when the term is used as a noun it is considered "a highly offensive term for somebody from East Asia." [6]"

and also
"The term "Orient" is derived from the Latin word oriens meaning "east" "

nothing about beautiful objects coming from that region. . .

[elektra]

I'm sure folks over there call us the "Americans" -- even when dealing with folk in Canada, United States, and Mexico.

I was curious about this and so I asked a UK colleague of mine (focus group of one, I know) what he would say. He said he would say, 'I had a call with the US team'


I gave him the following choices, BTW:
“I had a call with the Americans”

“I had a call with the (North) American team”

“I had a call with the US team”

“I had a call with America”

“I had a call with the US”

“I had a call with the Yanks” ;)



Other?

[codex57]

It's "sometimes" offensive. It looks like I'm forced to bring more politics into this when I didn't want to.

"Orient" refers to a region. The word just became famous here because of all the beautiful objects from that region. Like rugs, among other things.

There was some taking advantage by "whites" so some Asians can have a legitimate beef against the word. However, a lot of that was helped along by fully complicit Asians. In Asia, they're pretty open about how money will trump nearly anything.

The main problem with the word is just that it's antiquated. That, in and of itself, doesn't make it a "bad" word. Just not used anymore.

For a word to be offensive, it has to be used offensively. Oriental really isn't used consistently as an insult. It's too descriptive a word. Again, because it describes some beautiful objects from that REGION. A word can have an innocuous meaning, but be turned offensive due to frequent intentional use as an offensive word. "Gay" is the easiest example. "Oriental" can be like "gay", but it's just not used enough purely as an offensive term.

We already have plenty of intentionally offensive words, like "ch**k", "g**k", etc. Those are clearly offensive, and more in line with the "N" word.

In America, nearly every group, including many white ethnicities (Irish, Italians, etc), got discriminated against. Asians did too, so it's understandable that Asian groups are tempted to be closely aligned with the current minority groups being discriminated against (blacks and hispanics). The thing is, why? If they would just look at history and current reality, they'd see that the real bad discrimination ended way, way long ago. You might get an isolated case now, but nothing like what blacks and hispanics experience. Asians are now considered the "model minority." So, by standing in lock step with the other big minority groups, it actually doesn't help them. Hurts them actually. Biggest example is affirmative action. Almost invariably, it hurts Asians. And, for any glass ceiling things, like political appointments, the "white" politicians in power will always choose a black or hispanic person before an Asian. Yet, the main Asian political groups still stubbornly want us to to follow along like good little sheep. So, if there are any Asians reading this, think about whether doing so truly benefits you. Doing so is, frankly, stupid. Being the "model minority" comes with its own set of unique problems and we should concentrate on countering that (and using the advantages it comes with) rather than following along as the 3rd heel behind the black and hispanic groups. Being overly sensitive is one of those mimic reactions we need to stop doing.

[arivecchi]

Codex, quite honestly, I have a problem following your reasoning. Are you saying that the other posters should not be offended by the use of the word Oriental because it reinforces the status of certain nationalies as minorities and you do not want to be associated with being part of a minority group? :confused:

I am Hispanic and would not use a word that other Hispanics find hurtful, but perhaps that is just me. I also tend to support other minorities whether it benefits me or not. I am not saying that to be snarky. I am just trying to understand your argument because I am sure it cannot be what I just described above.

[codex57]

Codex, quite honestly, I have a problem following your reasoning. Are you saying that the other posters should not be offended by the use of the word Oriental because it reinforces the status of certain nationalies as minorities and you do not want to be associated with being part of a minority group? :confused:

I am Hispanic and would not use a word that other Hispanics find hurtful, whether it benefits me or not, but perhaps that is just me. I also tend to support other minorities whether it benefits me or not. I am not saying that to be snarky. I just have an affinity for what other minorities in this country go through/have gone through at times.

My main point is for those who find it offensive, to think about why they find it offensive. Is it cuz someone told them it was offensive? Or purely out of fear that it is offensive.

"Oriental" is sort of a unique word. However, look into the reasons why it is considered offensive by some. Primarily, it's cuz it "lumps" them together too much (like "Asian" doesn't?) or that it's Eurocentric (welcome to reality in the US).

I'm so glad you're "Hispanic" because that was the example I was gonna use. Did you know there are many who find the term "Hispanic" to be offensive? They're so hyper sensitive, instead of merely correcting the person who I guarantee was trying to be "sensitive" and PC about it, that they took offense to that term. Would rather be called "Latino/a" or something else that's more correct on some technical detail.

It's fine to want to educate and be called the proper term. Increases awareness and all that. However, being hypersensitive about it is stupid IMO. At first, we needed to be more PC cuz people weren't. However, it's gotten to the point where people are WAY too PC. The "oriental" thing (and the "hispanic" thing) is a glaring example to me.

And it's good to support other minority groups just to support them. However, again, Asians are in a unique and weird position. Blacks and hispanics have no problems finding leaders to stand up for their own ethnicities' rights. They don't get lost in the shuffle. Unfortunately, one of the big weaknesses of Asians is that they don't stand up for themselves. Too quiet, etc. So, what happens is, if we follow along with the other two big minority groups, we're always forgotten. Hell, you can see that in the media when they talk about "minorities". More often than not, they only refer to blacks or Hispanics. If Asian leaders want us to support other minorities (cuz racism does still exist), they need to stop forgetting to advocate for us at the same time instead of hanging in the background all the time as "support." To put it bluntly, other people (whites as well as the other minorities) are fully aware of this tendency and take advantage.

[wellyes]

I once read a really interesting discussion of how socially it is fine to say "'he's a German" or "she's a Canadian" or "I'm a Puerto Rican" but it rubs most people the wrong way to say "he's a Japanese" or "she's a French". Was that here?

If I remember correctly, it doesn't have to do with ethnical issues or sensitive historical contexts.... just a quirk of language / grammar. I think it was because with identities that end in "-n" (American, Mexican), the word seem self-contained when spoken aloud. Identities that don't (Chinese, English) somehow seem to require you to add the word person: "She's a Chinese person", not "She's a Chinese".

Anyway this thread reminded me of that.

[hellokitty]

Codex, I understand what you are getting at to some degree, but I also noticed that you live in CA. I live in the middle of the boonies in the midwest where it's still 50/50 use of Asian vs. Oriental. I was the only Asian American in my entire class of 400 kids and when I go back to the town where I grew up (parents still live there), ppl still stare at me, like they aren't used to seeing Asians. To *ME* I find offense to, "oriental," b/c it shows how slow ppl (esp in my area) are to come around in changing their preception of Asians in this country. To say that we are being overly-PC is one thing, but in our area there are ppl who aren't even caught up to, a "normal" degree of being PC. As for the beautiful objects things, I don't really understand how that's a compliment that I would want to be associated with. I've been called a china doll before and well, to me, that's not a good thing, even though ppl consider china dolls pretty.

Oh and FTR, my parents, being 1st gen here in the US from Taiwan, STILL prefer to be called, "Oriental," b/c that was the term they were used to be called by others when they came to the US in the late 60's/early 70's. So, they actually say stuff like, "We orientals blah, blah, blah." My siblings and I can't stand it, but my parents insist on continuing to use the term and are totally oblivious to anything PC and refuse to believe that it is an antiquated word that ignorant ppl use.

As for being overly-sensitive. Yeah, maybe I am overly-senstive compared to you. However, having grown up in the middle of the corn fields, my Asian American experience is probably a LOT different from somone who grew up Asian American on the West Coast, so my perception and your perception may not align. However, that doesn't make my experience or perception something to be blown off either. Currently the population of Asians in our area is less than 1%, if you are Asian here, you either work at a Chinese restaurant or you're a doctor. That's basically what ppl assume you do for a living if you are Asian in our area.

[baymom]

Codex-- Thank you for sticking to your clearly unpopular view on this thread. I'm a California-raised Asian as well, and I've always felt the same way about the term "Oriental." Perhaps the PP was onto something when she said that it might matter where in the country you were from... I simply cannot understand why people get so bent out of shape about it. Even after reading all the posts on this thread, I still see it as people being unfamiliar with the history of the term and oversensitive. Thanks for all of your explanatory and articulate posts. Also, another pet peeve of mine, ever notice how the term "Asian" ONLY seems to imply East Asians? If one wants to refer to Indians, Pakistanis, ect., you need to specifically say SOUTH Asian? That was a little off topic, but had to get it off my chest. :)

[TwinFoxes]

Codex, I understand what you are getting at to some degree, but I also noticed that you live in CA. I live in the middle of the boonies in the midwest where it's still 50/50 use of Asian vs. Oriental. I was the only Asian American in my entire class of 400 kids and when I go back to the town where I grew up (parents still live there), ppl still stare at me, like they aren't used to seeing Asians. To *ME* I find offense to, "oriental," b/c it shows how slow ppl (esp in my area) are to come around in changing their preception of Asians in this country. To say that we are being overly-PC is one thing, but in our area there are ppl who aren't even caught up to, a "normal" degree of being PC. As for the beautiful objects things, I don't really understand how that's a compliment that I would want to be associated with. I've been called a china doll before and well, to me, that's not a good thing, even though ppl consider china dolls pretty.

Oh and FTR, my parents, being 1st gen here in the US from Taiwan, STILL prefer to be called, "Oriental," b/c that was the term they were used to be called by others when they came to the US in the late 60's/early 70's. So, they actually say stuff like, "We orientals blah, blah, blah." My siblings and I can't stand it, but my parents insist on continuing to use the term and are totally oblivious to anything PC and refuse to believe that it is an antiquated word that ignorant ppl use.

As for being overly-sensitive. Yeah, maybe I am overly-senstive compared to you. However, having grown up in the middle of the corn fields, my Asian American experience is probably a LOT different from somone who grew up Asian American on the West Coast, so my perception and your perception may not align. However, that doesn't make my experience or perception something to be blown off either.

This post explains perfectly why I don't a person should decide that someone else is being overly sensitive about something. It's fine of YOU don't think "Orientals" is offensive, you have every right to feel that way and to say you don't find it offensive. Your reasons make sense. But I totally understand why HK doesn't like the term, and I think her feelings are valid and shouldn't be dismissed as overly sensitive.

HK, my dad still calls people "colored". He is super old though (born in the 20s!) and grew up in Texas. "Colored" was probably one of the nicer things he was called!

[egoldber]

I always find these discussions so interesting. The use of Hispanic vs Latino/Latina is one that I struggle with. When I lived in California, I heard/was taught that Latino/a was the preferred term. Now I live on the East Coast and work for a very large federal agency whose job is to collect large amounts of data on people all over the country. One of the descriptive categories on our survey is Hispanic. I am assuming this is vetted in some way as the "proper" term for our usage. But I know that there are people who find the term Hispanic offensive. It can be very confusing even when you have the best of intentions to know what is the right thing to say. :dizzy:

[arivecchi]

I've never heard of anyone being offended by Hispanic. I wonder why?

[katydid1971]

I've never heard of anyone being offended by Hispanic. I wonder why?
I was told to use the term Latin because Hispanic refers to the island of Hispaniola which is the island the Dominican Republic and Haiti are on so technically only people from that island are "Hispanic". Its like calling all Latinos "Mexican" or all Asians "Chinese".

[egoldber]

:yeahthat:

This is what I was told as well. But I have seen other references where that is not the case. So I seriously don't know what to say and just avoid it. And my current project at work right now involves sorting through some of these race and ethnicity categories and I am really uncomfortable in meetings because I don't know what to say. :dizzy:

[C99]

Does not bother me, but agree that it depends on how he's using it - expression on his face, tone of voice, etc. Singaporeans, Chinese and Japanese all live in Asia, so I don't see why it's derogatory to refer to them as the Asians - "our clients from Asia" is so much clunkier.

[C99]

Having lived on both coasts and in the middle, my only conclusion about Latino/Hispanic and Black/African-American is that their use is cultural. I know people who cannot stand being called Latina and people who feel the same way about Hispanic. Same with black/AA. It makes it very confusing for the rest of us. But I dislike the term caucausian, so I suppose we all have our preferences in terms of how we are called. I suppose it's a good reminder to us all that these types of designations are somewhat arbitrary and maybe should not really be used. I usually just ask whomever it is and use that, although I try not to use any type of skin-color/race designation in describing someone anyway (and neither do my children, I've noticed).

[arivecchi]

From an online dictionary:

Though often used interchangeably in American English, Hispanic and Latino are not identical terms, and in certain contexts the choice between them can be significant. Hispanic, from the Latin word for "Spain," has the broader reference, potentially encompassing all Spanish-speaking peoples in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common denominator of language among communities that sometimes have little else in common. Latinohttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/mdash.gifwhich in Spanish means "Latin" but which as an English word is probably a shortening of the Spanish word latinoamericanohttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/mdash.gifrefers more exclusively to persons or communities of Latin American origin. Of the two, only Hispanic can be used in referring to Spain and its history and culture; a native of Spain residing in the United States is a Hispanic, not a Latino, and one cannot substitute Latino in the phrase the Hispanic influence on native Mexican cultures without garbling the meaning. In practice, however, this distinction is of little significance when referring to residents of the United States, most of whom are of Latin American origin and can theoretically be called by either word. · A more important distinction concerns the sociopolitical rift that has opened between Latino and Hispanic in American usage. For a certain segment of the Spanish-speaking population, Latino is a term of ethnic pride and Hispanic a label that borders on the offensive. According to this view, Hispanic lacks the authenticity and cultural resonance of Latino, with its Spanish sound and its ability to show the feminine form Latina when used of women. Furthermore, Hispanichttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/mdash.gifthe term used by the U.S. Census Bureau and other government agencieshttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/mdash.gifis said to bear the stamp of an Anglo establishment far removed from the concerns of the Spanish-speaking community. While these views are strongly held by some, they are by no means universal, and the division in usage seems as related to geography as it is to politics, with Latino widely preferred in California and Hispanic the more usual term in Florida and Texas. Even in these regions, however, usage is often mixed, and it is not uncommon to find both terms used by the same writer or speaker. :dizzy:

I must say I would not be offended if I were referred to as Hispanic or Latina. The one time I saw a difference was in college. Students of Hispanic heritage born in the US were part of the Hispanic American Society, while the students from Latin America did not want to be a part of that and only belonged to the International Society, as if they were better than the students born in the US. Obnoxious....

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

Codex-- Thank you for sticking to your clearly unpopular view on this thread. I'm a California-raised Asian as well, and I've always felt the same way about the term "Oriental." Perhaps the PP was onto something when she said that it might matter where in the country you were from... I simply cannot understand why people get so bent out of shape about it. Even after reading all the posts on this thread, I still see it as people being unfamiliar with the history of the term and oversensitive. Thanks for all of your explanatory and articulate posts. Also, another pet peeve of mine, ever notice how the term "Asian" ONLY seems to imply East Asians? If one wants to refer to Indians, Pakistanis, ect., you need to specifically say SOUTH Asian? That was a little off topic, but had to get it off my chest. :)

I think growing up in the BA/living in the BA is a unique experience, that you do not realize until you move. It is SO diverse! People in other parts do not know what a Filipino person is, while my High School in SSF was over 50% Filipino. I also think racism is far less in the BA, or at least far less in the open. In my HS I wanted to start an Irish club, but was not allowed as the district would allow no Caucasian clubs, as they might be viewed as racist. Funny, but the kids that helped me fight for it the most were Filipinas, Latinas, and other minorities. There was the Black Student Union, a Filipino Club, etc. I never had my club. So I know what it feels like to be a minority. Unique as a lily white girl in America.
So I can see an Asian in say, Nebraska being more offended by the term Oriental, as racism was a prevalent part of their life. People still say the N word, people call gays the f word. Growing up in the BA was like a bubble, there was so much diversity, so much more than exists in most places.
I learned from my Asian friends, which in my childhood were prevalent, "Rugs are Oriental, people are Asian". I also say Latino/a.
*I* personally think saying Oriental is like saying Colored or Negro. An outdated term, that many in those groups would find offensive. Like people calling my Grandma with her THICK brogue a Mick.

[Piglet]

Maybe I am late to this, but my 2 cents on it is that it depends more on the tone and intent than on the specific word. You can use the most polite word and say it with an air of hate/disdain/etc. Obviously there are words that are just not used anymore, but even those are confusing in the "politically-incorrect word of the day" game. My expereince was funny - I told my boss, "Jews celebrate Rosh Hashana..." and he stopped me in my tracks and insisted that "Jews" was offensive and that he could never get away with saying that term. He knows I am Jewish and assumed that we had "taken back" the term. I don't know a single Jew that thinks it is offensive, but of course it all depends on the tone and the context. "Those Jews and their crazy religion" is no better or worse than "Those Jewish People and their crazy religion". I told a non-Jewish friend about this and she agreed with my boss that it was offensive (she is very politically correct). It just made it funny that everyone was tip-toe-ing around the name but I guess anything is better than actually being hated/stereotyped/etc.

[MontrealMum]

I was told to use the term Latin because Hispanic refers to the island of Hispaniola which is the island the Dominican Republic and Haiti are on so technically only people from that island are "Hispanic". Its like calling all Latinos "Mexican" or all Asians "Chinese".

Yes, Hispaniola is an island. But the term was used historically to refer to all of Spain's colonial posessions in the New World. As a counterpart to my field of study, New France. However, many modern scholars in the equivalent field no longer use it. I *think* because it's seen as outdated, not because it's offensive, but I don't know for sure. Some prominant names in the field are Dubois, Garofalo, and Guitar. I see programs called "Latin American History" and "Hispanic Studies", so I don't think there's much of a consensus.

I know people that detest the word Hispanic, and prefer Latino, and others that are the complete opposite. I also know some who are fine with both. I try to take the lead of whomever I'm interacting with. Being in Canada complicates things, as we obviously don't tack the word "American" onto the end of another descriptor, such as Irish-American or something. People that do say things like "Irish Canadian" are seen as being a bit strange. The PC movement never got very far up here.

[wellyes]

Hispanic, from the Latin word for "Spain," has the broader reference, potentially encompassing all Spanish-speaking peoples in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common denominator of language among communities that sometimes have little else in common
I wouldn't ever think to refer to a person from Spain as "Hispanic".

Like the PP, I think of "Hispanic" as being a reference to colonialism.


My expereince was funny - I told my boss, "Jews celebrate Rosh Hashana..." and he stopped me in my tracks and insisted that "Jews" was offensive and that he could never get away with saying that term. He knows I am Jewish and assumed that we had "taken back" the term. I don't know a single Jew that thinks it is offensive, but of course it all depends on the tone and the context.

I don't really agree - I don't see HOW "Jews" is a slur. I mean, any word could potentially be a slur if used disparagingly. (The example that comes to mind is "Isn't that interesting" = an insult coming from a certain type of person, a great compliment from another). But there's never a nice way to use a racial slur.

Anyway, I put "Oriental" in the same category as "Negro" - a word that has appropriate uses in some contexts, but that has become socially unacceptable to use to refer to a person.

[Piglet]

I don't really agree - I don't see HOW "Jews" is a slur. I mean, any word could potentially be a slur if used disparagingly. (The example that comes to mind is "Isn't that interesting" = an insult coming from a certain type of person, a great compliment from another). But there's never a nice way to use a racial slur.


That's my point - it ISN'T a slur, but somehow 2 people that are close to me both thought it was somehow a derogatory term. In the case of Hispanic and Latino, you have the same problem - some think one is better than the other when in fact it might not be. No, there is never a nice way to say a slur, but there is also plenty of opportunity to offend someone without resorting to a slur. In this case of "the Asians" no one suggested it was a slur, but people still feel uncomfortable with the phrase.

[codex57]

This post explains perfectly why I don't a person should decide that someone else is being overly sensitive about something. It's fine of YOU don't think "Orientals" is offensive, you have every right to feel that way and to say you don't find it offensive. Your reasons make sense. But I totally understand why HK doesn't like the term, and I think her feelings are valid and shouldn't be dismissed as overly sensitive.

HK, my dad still calls people "colored". He is super old though (born in the 20s!) and grew up in Texas. "Colored" was probably one of the nicer things he was called!

Wow. I'm surprised I didn't get jumped all over and people actually understood my Hispanic/Latino example. Again, "oriental" is one of those funny words and I'm pretty sure I said this in my first post, but it depends on how it was said. Location can matter greatly as well as some of you have pointed out. Not necessarily though cuz I've had racist things said to me in areas that are racially diverse. It kind of goes back to tone of voice and context.

I wanted to address WinFoxes though. I'm not saying HK is being overly sensitive. However, I have opinions over whether someone is being overly sensitive. Just cuz I have an opinion, doesn't mean I am right tho (if an opinion can be "right"). Assuming you can, I am of the opinion that someone can be overly sensitive. It's a very gray area as to when it crosses the line, but I believe there is a line and it can be crossed. No idea if HK is overly sensitive cuz "oriental" can be used offensively or innocuously and I don't know HK's personal history and how she reacts to other things.

However, like a PP pointed out, you can use any innocuous word and if you say it a certain way, you can make it offensive. Aside from that, there are many who jump at anything and turn it into an offensive statement. Maybe they do it intentionally. Maybe it's subconscious. They still do it tho. My best example would be Al Sharpton. Personally, I'm of the opinion that he does it intentionally to increase his own publicity and power and isn't truly offended by half of what he complains about. In any case, he's a person who many feel is "overly sensitive." Not everyone will agree with me on him, but I guarantee a large number of people do.

You can avoid using "oriental" if you like. I'm just putting in a lot of time explaining why I don't think it's offensive b/c the word still has a chance to be "saved." If everyone agreed it was offensive, it becomes offensive like the N word. The negative use isn't that pervasive and going back to the beautiful objects idea, it can still have a "good" meaning. I may be wrong, but I think that's still a reasonable idea vs the blacks who started calling each other the N word to "take the word" back. Sorry, but I think it's too late for that word and I'm not sure if it ever even had an innocuous meaning.

And kudos to everyone for having such a calm and rational discussion on such a hot button topic.