Drug resistant H1N1 - what do you think?

[firsttimemama]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-11-20-drug-resistant-swineflu_N.htm

If you did not /were not going to vax, does this change how you feel at all?

[Melaine]

It's not good news, obviously, but it doesn't change my decision not to vax.

[icunurse]

It was bound to happen, as most viruses do mutate to some degree over time and people are taking Tamiflu like candy. Hopefully it won't mutate too much further (to create a supervirus) and more docs will be prudent about who and when Tamiflu is used.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

It was bound to happen, as most viruses do mutate to some degree over time and people are taking Tamiflu like candy. Hopefully it won't mutate too much further (to create a supervirus) and more docs will be prudent about who and when Tamiflu is used.

It is like over prescribing antibiotics, a recipe for disaster. Tamiflu isn't that fab to begin with...
And no, I am still not vaxing.

[brandonsmom]

They will say anything to get you to take the vaccine. I bet you they spent more on promoting the product than on testing it for safety.

[citymama]

They will say anything to get you to take the vaccine. I bet you they spent more on promoting the product than on testing it for safety.

I don't get it - do you think the drug manufacturers and CDC are part of a grand conspiracy theory? Inoculating one's self and family against a virulent and potentially deadly disease seems to make a lot of sense to me, but even if I chose not to vax, I'm not sure I would view it through the conspiracy lens.

[randomkid]

They will say anything to get you to take the vaccine. I bet you they spent more on promoting the product than on testing it for safety.

So, you think they are making it up that there is a drug resistant strain in order to scare people into vaccinating? I'm sure the pharmaceutical companies are not making a fortune off this vaccine, which is usually the arguement behind the conspiracy theories. Considering the number of FREE vaccines being distributed, they surely are not in this for the money. The government is paying for the vaccine and distributing it. DH and I paid $15 each for ours and DD's was $18 (different location). The counties are having FREE vaccination clinics around here on a regular basis. Yes, it is a personal decision whether or not to vax for the flu and I respect both as I have been on both sides of the fence on this one. However, to make such broad speculations is not helpful to anyone.

And no, the drug resistant H1N1 is not what changed my decision to vax. Initially, DH and I were both against it. I read about how the vaccine was produced, saw many of my co-workers getting it without complications and decided to vax. In the past week, I have had two young patients - 30s and 40s - in the Critical Care Unit. Both initially had H1N1, developed pneumonia and required ventilators. Neither had pre-existing medical conditions. Both will likely have long term effects/disability as the result of their illnesses. The CCUs have been full of younger people on vents lately. THIS is what confirmed my decision to change my mind and vax.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I wouldn't take Tamiflu in any case so this doesn't affect my decision about the vaccine.

Beth

[brandonsmom]

I don't get it - do you think the drug manufacturers and CDC are part of a grand conspiracy theory?


YES! I mean come on, is it not RIDICULOUS that PBS cartoons (science guy or whatever) are telling you to take your flu vaccine? They can't get rid of them! People don't trust them and they DON'T WANT THE VACCINE. The big scare tactic is failing, so now it's the shortage tactic. Here is evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DanA9E2Vzw&feature=PlayList&p=2D4F7AAE336DB4E1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=37

[brandonsmom]

So, you think they are making it up that there is a drug resistant strain in order to scare people into vaccinating? I'm sure the pharmaceutical companies are not making a fortune off this vaccine, which is usually the arguement behind the conspiracy theories. Considering the number of FREE vaccines being distributed, they surely are not in this for the money. The government is paying for the vaccine and distributing it. DH and I paid $15 each for ours and DD's was $18 (different location). The counties are having FREE vaccination clinics around here on a regular basis. Yes, it is a personal decision whether or not to vax for the flu and I respect both as I have been on both sides of the fence on this one. However, to make such broad speculations is not helpful to anyone.

And no, the drug resistant H1N1 is not what changed my decision to vax. Initially, DH and I were both against it. I read about how the vaccine was produced, saw many of my co-workers getting it without complications and decided to vax. In the past week, I have had two young patients - 30s and 40s - in the Critical Care Unit. Both initially had H1N1, developed pneumonia and required ventilators. Neither had pre-existing medical conditions. Both will likely have long term effects/disability as the result of their illnesses. The CCUs have been full of younger people on vents lately. THIS is what confirmed my decision to change my mind and vax.

I have no idea if they are making it up but I don't trust them. Vaccines cause viral mutation all the time because everyone reacts differently.

The pneumococcal vaccine caused a superbug ear infection resistant to antibiotics: <http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-09-17-2472804019_x.htm>

Here is what a couple Congressmen have to say about the Swine Flu program:

Congressman Ron Paul, in an interview with the Enquirer (Dec. 21, 76) said: "I am outraged by this program. It has been a shocking misuse of funds ... and an evil political maneuver. There are people whose careers are in question because of this program. And I predict these blatant advertising efforts to panic the people into taking swine flu shots will fail.

"I think Congress has wasted more than one hundred million dollars. The swine flu program should be brought back to Congress and discontinued at once. The program should be stopped, and those who were responsible should be held morally accountable to the American public."

Congressman Larry McDonald of Georgia, also a medical doctor, said: "I think the swine flu program is a tailor-made hoax that finds its roots in frightening the American people . . . I believe that a full investigation of those in charge should be launched . . . and if it turns out to be a dishonest promotion, everyone responsible should be removed from their jobs."

***********************************************

The lies are running rampant. I never believed it till I saw for myself when I researched my son's autism. I searched stuff in his medical records, his blood test results and such and my eyes were opened to what is going on.

Look at this one, are you confident in giving your child vaccines with this going on?:


"MANY FAKE FINDINGS BY SCIENTISTS SEEN"

"Many scientists may be faking their findings, according to a report published Thursday in New Scientist magazine.

"The magazine asked scientists in a questionnaire whether they knew of cases of ‘intentional bias’--- faking results to make experiments appear well conceived and important.

"90% of 200 replies reported knowledge of such cases.

"University scientists proved the worst offenders. Most cheaters were discovered by other scientists trying to duplicate the experiments. But those who replied said the gains from such frauds were often nothing, but in a few cases resulted in promotion.

"Some scientists implied that drug companies encouraged them to cheat by being obsessed with getting positive results, for one forensic scientist said it was not unusual for the police to indicate the sort of forensic (legal procedure) evidence they would prefer."

We wonder what pressures, bribes or other inducements were offered the, so called, scientists to say that the swine flu vaccine was properly tested and safe. Dr. Wecht said people should have been warned that the vaccine could trigger heart attacks, "but this wasn’t done."

Many people who saw through the fraud from the start tried to get warnings in the papers and on T.V. and other channels of communication, but the media turned a deaf ear.


Resource: http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1a.html#"MANY%20FAKE%20FINDINGS%20BY%20SCIENTISTS%20SEEN"

[Melaine]

YES! I mean come on, is it not RIDICULOUS that PBS cartoons (science guy or whatever) are telling you to take your flu vaccine? They can't get rid of them! People don't trust them and they DON'T WANT THE VACCINE. The big scare tactic is failing, so now it's the shortage tactic. Here is evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DanA9E2Vzw&feature=PlayList&p=2D4F7AAE336DB4E1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=37

I have to admit I have been HIGHLY annoyed by the Sid the Science Kid and the over the top Flu Shot push. Ridiculous.

[essnce629]

This doesn't change my mind about not vaxing one bit. And I wouldn't treat with Tamiflu even if I did get H1N1. Studies show that it only shortens the duration of flu by ONE day! It has lots of side effects too-- including some potentially serious cardiac and psychiatric effects.

Regarding Tamiflu, Doctors and Patients Face a Question of When to Act
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/health/07tamiflu.html

[klwa]

I have to admit I have been HIGHLY annoyed by the Sid the Science Kid and the over the top Flu Shot push. Ridiculous.

Really? I saw it & just used it as a teaching moment abotu the fact that everyone has to get shots. I'll admit to being a bit surprised that they talked abotu the "new strain of flu" or whatever was said, but just ignored that part & focused on the "See, Sid doesn't cry & scream when he gets a shot." aspect.

[Melaine]

Really? I saw it & just used it as a teaching moment abotu the fact that everyone has to get shots. I'll admit to being a bit surprised that they talked abotu the "new strain of flu" or whatever was said, but just ignored that part & focused on the "See, Sid doesn't cry & scream when he gets a shot." aspect.

Yeah, maybe it is because it has aired so many times, and because Sid just annoys me. And because they talked about the "best way to protect ourselves" from the flu virus is to get the vaccine, which I disagree with. But, mostly, I think Sid just annoys me!

[Nooknookmom]

So if the virus can mutate (& if it does), will it negate the current vax?

[mommylamb]

I spent the last several days at an event in Warm Springs Georgia at the Roosevelt Institute and the Little White House, where FDR went to recover from Polio while he was president. The Roosevelt Institute is a hospital founded by FDR, originally for people with polio. I know that polio and H1N1 are very different things, but after seeing the museums at both the Little White House and the polio exhibit at the Roosevelt Institute, I have never in my life been more sure of my decision to vaccinate my child, and never so grateful for modern medicine and vaccines.

[dogmom]

I have no idea if they are making it up but I don't trust them. Vaccines cause viral mutation all the time because everyone reacts differently.

/sf1a.html#"MANY%20FAKE%20FINDINGS%20BY%20SCIENTISTS%20SEEN"

I am unclear on the biology of how a vaccine causes a virus to mutate. The vaccine causes an immune reaction in the person so they can fight of the "real" virus when they get it, basically getting the immunological benefits of having the virus already without the symptoms. There is nothing in the vaccine that would stay around the system and mutate with the live virus. Unless you mean that a vast pool of vaccinated, immune people would promote viral mutation. Which would happen, IF it was going to happen, if a lot of people got the virus itself.

All I know is we got all our ECHMO (extracorporeal membrane oxygenation) machines running in our hospital, on all adults with H1N1 complications. (ECHMO is basically cardiac/pulmonary bypass used outside of the OR, it was developed to provide severely premature infants with enough time for their lungs to mature enough to oxygenate their bodies.) If a newborn or another adult needs it we are going to have to triage someone off of it. There are less than 100 hospitals in the use that even have ECHMO. People can talk about scare tactics all they want, but I've been doing this 17 year and I've never seen anything like this.

[sunshine873]

YES! I mean come on, is it not RIDICULOUS that PBS cartoons (science guy or whatever) are telling you to take your flu vaccine? They can't get rid of them! People don't trust them and they DON'T WANT THE VACCINE. The big scare tactic is failing, so now it's the shortage tactic. Here is evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DanA9E2Vzw&feature=PlayList&p=2D4F7AAE336DB4E1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=37


I don't see this video as proof of anything. These are opinions of those in the medical field, and in reality, they are all supportive of the vaccine. Yes, the woman is stating that there shouldn't be a shortage and she's right. We have all been told, all along that there will be enough vaccine for everyone. It's just not all available right now! So, in the beginning, those who are at higher risk should be getting the shots. Those who are at lower risk, should be able to wait until there is more available. They keep on making it - clinics keep getting more in stock, and as they do, more people are able to get vaccinated.

I understand your pain about your son's disease and think you're looking hard for a conspiracy to explain it. But I just don't see that our government is purposefully trying to poison us.

[citymama]

I spent the last several days at an event in Warm Springs Georgia at the Roosevelt Institute and the Little White House, where FDR went to recover from Polio while he was president. The Roosevelt Institute is a hospital founded by FDR, originally for people with polio. I know that polio and H1N1 are very different things, but after seeing the museums at both the Little White House and the polio exhibit at the Roosevelt Institute, I have never in my life been more sure of my decision to vaccinate my child, and never so grateful for modern medicine and vaccines.

I see myself as a living, breathing example of why to vaccinate. Unlike my siblings, I was NOT vaccinated against some easily preventable diseases (not because of any philosophical issues but because of where I was born and raised versus my sibs). And guess what? I got really sick! Measles? Had it. Rubella? Yep. German measles? Check. Hepatitis? Sure. So spent my childhood being sick while my vaccinated sibs were not. So much for the "healthiness" of unvaccinated kids. Luckily I had the polio vaccine because I grew up in a place where polio was rampant. And I got vaccinated against MMR etc later (after I got all those diseases) because it was required for schools, colleges etc. That's the only thing I hold against my parents for my childhood and will not inflict the same thing on my kids!

[brittone2]

Considering the number of FREE vaccines being distributed, they surely are not in this for the money. The government is paying for the vaccine and distributing it. DH and I paid $15 each for ours and DD's was $18 (different location). The counties are having FREE vaccination clinics around here on a regular basis. Yes, it is a personal decision whether or not to vax for the flu and I respect both as I have been on both sides of the fence on this one. However, to make such broad speculations is not helpful to anyone.


DH's latest Chemical and Engineering News came in the mail and I noticed these figures

p 21 of the current issue (November 16, 2009) has an article entitled "A Mixed Bag From Pharma" and it mentions:
The most likely long-term impact of the H1N1 pandemic is a "transient boost" in sales, according to the market research firm Datamonitor. It expects sales of seasonal and pandemic flu vaccines in 7 major geographic markets (France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, the UK, and the US) to expand to more than $4 billion in the 2009-2010 flu season, compared with $2.8 billion in the previous season."

They state that US sales of H1N1 vaccine totaled $152 million in the third quarter for AstraZeneca. Sanofi's H1N1 sales are quoted as $114 million in the 3rd quarter and the company "is predicting another $500 million in the 4th quarter" because of supply contracts it has signed and because its H1N1 product was approved for the widest age range of patients.

Novartis has signed nearly $1 billion in government vaccine supply contracts. By the end of 2009 they expect to make 90-100 million doses which are expected to generate $400 million to $700 million in 4th quarter revenues.

They go on to also quote the sales figures for Relenza and Tamiflu.

[wellyes]

Those are big numbers, but remember that both sales and revenues are not profit. And in terms of PR, I'm pretty sure H1N1 is disastrous. Pro-vax, delayed-vax, anti-vax, every parent (and ped's office) is pissed off about this one one way or another, at least in terms of supply and demand.

[brittone2]

Those are big numbers, but remember that both sales and revenues are not profit. And in terms of PR, I'm pretty sure H1N1 is disastrous. Pro-vax, delayed-vax, anti-vax, every parent (and ped's office) is pissed off about this one one way or another, at least in terms of supply and demand.

I quoted the numbers cited. I realize they aren't profits. We just happened to receive C&EN today in the mail and that article had a nice compilation of figures in one place, so I thought I'd quote the figures cited for anyone who is curious.

[Gena]

Here is what a couple Congressmen have to say about the Swine Flu program:

Congressman Ron Paul, in an interview with the Enquirer (Dec. 21, 76) said: "I am outraged by this program. It has been a shocking misuse of funds ... and an evil political maneuver. There are people whose careers are in question because of this program. And I predict these blatant advertising efforts to panic the people into taking swine flu shots will fail.

"I think Congress has wasted more than one hundred million dollars. The swine flu program should be brought back to Congress and discontinued at once. The program should be stopped, and those who were responsible should be held morally accountable to the American public."

Congressman Larry McDonald of Georgia, also a medical doctor, said: "I think the swine flu program is a tailor-made hoax that finds its roots in frightening the American people . . . I believe that a full investigation of those in charge should be launched . . . and if it turns out to be a dishonest promotion, everyone responsible should be removed from their jobs."

Just to be clear, you do realize that these quotes are from 1976 and refer to the issues with the swine flu vaccine of that time, right? There certainly were problems with that vaccine, but it's not the same vaccine being produced and given now.




Look at this one, are you confident in giving your child vaccines with this going on?:


"MANY FAKE FINDINGS BY SCIENTISTS SEEN"

"Many scientists may be faking their findings, according to a report published Thursday in New Scientist magazine.

"The magazine asked scientists in a questionnaire whether they knew of cases of ‘intentional bias’--- faking results to make experiments appear well conceived and important.

<snip>

Resource: http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1a.html#"MANY%20FAKE%20FINDINGS%20BY%20SCIENTISTS%20SEEN"

This is also from a discussion of the 1976 flu, but that's beside the point.

New Scientist magazine is a "popular magazine" (that's popular as in written for the masses, not as in well-known or well-liked). It is not a scholarly journal, nor is it peer reviewed. Over the years it has been criticized for poor science reporting and sensationalistic writing. I'm not sure how a survey done by this magazine has any assurance of reliability.

Whale.to is generally not regarded as a credible resource. This website is full of conspiracy theories, psuedo-science, and hysteria. Most disturbing is this site's strong anti-Semitism, with a large section devoted to denying the Holocaust. Oh, and did you see the article that claims that autism is the result (side effect) of the Catholic Church's mind control techniques? Whale.to really drives home the point that just because something is on the internet doesn't mean it's true.

Now that is not to say that fraud and false reporting do not happen in science. Of course they do. If you are truly interested in this topic (as opposed to just citing the issue as a way to dispute vaccines), try to track down a copy of "Betrayers of the Truth: Fraud and Deceit in the Halls of Science" by Broad and Wade. It's probably a little dated now (I read it in college and I don't think they ever came out with a new edition); but since it's really about the history and politics of science, it's still a fascinating read.

[ShanaMama]

I wouldn't take Tamiflu in any case so this doesn't affect my decision about the vaccine.

Beth

Why not? At this point I'm not vaccinating my family but I've been banking on the fact that there is a medication should we get sick. Guess I have more research to do because I didn't know Tamiflu was controversial. Please clue me in!

ETA: I just read the link someone posted about Tamiflu. Is the main reason against taking it to prevent a drug resistant flu or because of side effects?

[essnce629]

Why not? At this point I'm not vaccinating my family but I've been banking on the fact that there is a medication should we get sick. Guess I have more research to do because I didn't know Tamiflu was controversial. Please clue me in!

ETA: I just read the link someone posted about Tamiflu. Is the main reason against taking it to prevent a drug resistant flu or because of side effects?

To start, just google "tamiflu deaths in japan" and "tamiflu suicide."

[trales]

WE are in the hospital right now with H1N1, I would give anything to have gotten the vaccine in time, so DD would not be so sick and suffering. It is not just a minor illness. I have a very, very sick child right now.

[essnce629]

I spent the last several days at an event in Warm Springs Georgia at the Roosevelt Institute and the Little White House, where FDR went to recover from Polio while he was president.

It is now thought that FDR did NOT have polio, but actually had Guillain-Barre Syndrome, an autoimmune disease. And Guillain-Barre Syndrome is actually listed as a side effect of some vaccines.

Maybe FDR didn't have polio, scientists say
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/31/roosevelt.polio.reut/index.html

Regarding polio, up to 95% of all cases are completely asymptomatic. Fewer than 1% of all polio infections result in paralysis, and most of those recover completely. Of those 1% of paralytic cases only a small percentage is actually fatal (2-5% for children and 15-30% of adults). http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/polio.pdf

[BabyMine]

WE are in the hospital right now with H1N1, I would give anything to have gotten the vaccine in time, so DD would not be so sick and suffering. It is not just a minor illness. I have a very, very sick child right now.

I am so very sorry. I am sending prayers for a full recovery very soon.

[BabyMine]

OP, I have seen M code in the PICU and never want to see that again. I am pro-vax and do not believe that vaccines cause autism. I will definately be getting the second dose for both of my DSs. I am waiting for my vaccine as I am immune compromised. We are hoping this will be the first time in 4.5 years that no one in this house will be admitted to the hospital.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Why not? At this point I'm not vaccinating my family but I've been banking on the fact that there is a medication should we get sick. Guess I have more research to do because I didn't know Tamiflu was controversial. Please clue me in!

ETA: I just read the link someone posted about Tamiflu. Is the main reason against taking it to prevent a drug resistant flu or because of side effects?

Last year when I had the flu and we caught it in time, my Dr. said that he was uncomfortable prescribing Tamiflu. One of his main reasons was that the side effects from the Tamiflu were almost as bad as the flu (digestive stuff). The way he talked about it was that the flu was going to run it's course quickly enough and that rest and fluids were the best remedy. I stayed reasonably comfortable with just ibuprofen and felt no reason to add any potential side effects on top of what I was already dealing with.

I feel it is overprescribed and unnecessary. It doesn't really make a significant dent in recovery time for most people. I wouldn't use it for my family unless there were some circumstances I am not seeing now.

Beth

[ShanaMama]

To start, just google "tamiflu deaths in japan" and "tamiflu suicide."

I googled Tamiflu deaths & pretty much got hits from Japan from 2005. Some of the information also stated that in Japan Tamiflu is prescribed inuch higher doses and more frequently than in the US. Does anyone know of current info regarding bad outcomes of Tamiflu? I tried to bing it but apparently my iPod doesn't like Bing, LOL.

[brittone2]

I googled Tamiflu deaths & pretty much got hits from Japan from 2005. Some of the information also stated that in Japan Tamiflu is prescribed inuch higher doses and more frequently than in the US. Does anyone know of current info regarding bad outcomes of Tamiflu? I tried to bing it but apparently my iPod doesn't like Bing, LOL.

Less extreme side effects discussed but:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/31/tamiflu.side.effects/index.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/08/11/influenza.children.tamiflu.relenza/index.html

eta: I have no idea how many followup studies have been done on the topic since that time (July/Aug).

[ett]

I feel it is overprescribed and unnecessary. It doesn't really make a significant dent in recovery time for most people. I wouldn't use it for my family unless there were some circumstances I am not seeing now.

Beth

Yeah, I thought Tamiflu was supposed to be for immuno-compromised people where the flu may result in more complications, therefore the benefits of the drug is greater than the risks. Healthy people should recover fully from the flu with rest, fluids, etc. and should not need Tamiflu.

[brandonsmom]

What makes you think pharmaceutical representatives or their stakeholders are not on this board right now with the opposite of my agenda? Do you personally know any of these people here? They infiltrate our autism boards on Yahoo! Groups, they love to confuse us, hide the truth through deceit and watch us chase our tails. Well, I am onto them, I have been around awhile. I don't care if I sound paranoid to you, I'm not trying to save face here. I had no idea what was going on until I was knee deep in a bachelor's degree in business...if I didn't learn about pharmaceutical marketing and philosophy, I may have been fooled too. Preventative medicine is BIG MONEY, much bigger than curing anything. When you get sick, they keep you hooked on pharmaceutical drugs that also make them money.

What is funny is that it is right in front of people's faces but they can't see it. If the CDC comes out with a vaccine for bubonic plague are you going to get it even though bubonic plague died out on it's own WITHOUT a vaccine? Will you let your children have it if the powers that be say they should? What about a vaccine for AIDS? How far will it go - or does it have to go before people open their eyes to it? It's ALL MARKETING!! They don't care about your kids!! When is the last time your doctor gave you something that didn't have Yellow#5 or Blue Lake or Red food coloring in it or some prescription antibiotic? When is the last time you HEARD OF someone with Hepatitis A? Google, "Diagnosed with Hepatitis A", it's not even popular enough for Google to fill it in for you!! Has your doctor EVER said take some vitamin C and zinc for a cold, have they EVER said your child may have food allergies, try an elimination diet? Rare. They can't patent natural things like vitamins and minerals, diets don't make money for them - prescriptions do.

Who do you think pays for prescriptions- even if they are "FREE" - WE ALL DO! Our taxes pay for Medicare/Medicaid benefits (wonderful PHarma-cy customers) and low income medical insurance and the rest of us pay high insurance premuims so that we can get all the preventative medicine our bodies will handle for nearly nothing. When we are REALLY hurt, we REALLY pay. When we have autism, WE ARE COMPLETELY IGNORED...cause everybody knows that diarrhea, gastrointestinal pain and smearing feces are "characteristics of the genetic disorder autism".

Thanks to MY kid and kids like him, 30%+ of the people on this board are on delayed vaccine schedules or are not vaccinating at all. Something in those moms wonders if the thousands of moms of children with autism who blame vaccines are right.

[MontrealMum]

What is funny is that it is right in front of people's faces but they can't see it. If the CDC comes out with a vaccine for bubonic plague are you going to get it even though bubonic plague died out on it's own WITHOUT a vaccine?


Actually, the bubonic plague has not died out. It's still being spread in Africa and Asia.

[Katigre]

No it does not change my decision - regular seasonal flu is resistant to Tamiflu and I decline that vaccine as well for my family.

[HannaAddict]

I guess those who enjoy the protections from previously deadly or crippling diseases by others accepting the small risks of vaccinating are alive and well. Glad we got both doses of this flu vaccine.

[gatorsmom]

I guess those who enjoy the protections from previously deadly or crippling diseases by others accepting the small risks of vaccinating are alive and well. Glad we got both doses of this flu vaccine.

:ROTFLMAO: Yep, I'm glad to be doing my part contributing to the herd immunity. The vaccine just recently became available here and we are getting our vaccinations this weekend.

Frankly, I expected the H1N1 would mutate. Most viruses do, don't they? But I"m hoping that it doesn't mutate too fast so that the vaccines can at least provide some measure of protection for this winter. I expect we'll be going through this again next fall.

[ett]

Has your doctor EVER said take some vitamin C and zinc for a cold, have they EVER said your child may have food allergies, try an elimination diet? Rare.

I eliminated wheat, dairy, soy, nuts, shellfish, and eggs when BFing to figure out what was causing DS2's eczema. (as recommeded by both the ped. and allergist.) Last I heard there was no medicine to cure food allergies. If you're allergic to it, you don't eat it!

[caheinz]

So if the virus can mutate (& if it does), will it negate the current vax?

Probably not.

Keep in mind that the vax continues to work even if there isn't an exact match -- think about the seasonal flu virus over the past several years. Even in years with a bad match, there is still some protection to those receiving the vax.

And chances are, even in mutated forms of the novel H1N1, each of them will be much more similar to the "original" 2008 novel H1N1 than other flu strains -- hence still good protection.

[mommylamb]

What makes you think pharmaceutical representatives or their stakeholders are not on this board right now with the opposite of my agenda? Do you personally know any of these people here? They infiltrate our autism boards on Yahoo! Groups, they love to confuse us, hide the truth through deceit and watch us chase our tails. Well, I am onto them, I have been around awhile. I don't care if I sound paranoid to you, I'm not trying to save face here. I had no idea what was going on until I was knee deep in a bachelor's degree in business...if I didn't learn about pharmaceutical marketing and philosophy, I may have been fooled too. Preventative medicine is BIG MONEY, much bigger than curing anything. When you get sick, they keep you hooked on pharmaceutical drugs that also make them money.

What is funny is that it is right in front of people's faces but they can't see it. If the CDC comes out with a vaccine for bubonic plague are you going to get it even though bubonic plague died out on it's own WITHOUT a vaccine? Will you let your children have it if the powers that be say they should? What about a vaccine for AIDS? How far will it go - or does it have to go before people open their eyes to it? It's ALL MARKETING!! They don't care about your kids!! When is the last time your doctor gave you something that didn't have Yellow#5 or Blue Lake or Red food coloring in it or some prescription antibiotic? When is the last time you HEARD OF someone with Hepatitis A? Google, "Diagnosed with Hepatitis A", it's not even popular enough for Google to fill it in for you!! Has your doctor EVER said take some vitamin C and zinc for a cold, have they EVER said your child may have food allergies, try an elimination diet? Rare. They can't patent natural things like vitamins and minerals, diets don't make money for them - prescriptions do.

Who do you think pays for prescriptions- even if they are "FREE" - WE ALL DO! Our taxes pay for Medicare/Medicaid benefits (wonderful PHarma-cy customers) and low income medical insurance and the rest of us pay high insurance premuims so that we can get all the preventative medicine our bodies will handle for nearly nothing. When we are REALLY hurt, we REALLY pay. When we have autism, WE ARE COMPLETELY IGNORED...cause everybody knows that diarrhea, gastrointestinal pain and smearing feces are "characteristics of the genetic disorder autism".

Thanks to MY kid and kids like him, 30%+ of the people on this board are on delayed vaccine schedules or are not vaccinating at all. Something in those moms wonders if the thousands of moms of children with autism who blame vaccines are right.

While part of me wants to :ROTFLMAO: because this sort of comment is so outlandish, it's almost funny that anyone would think that. another part of me is just so horrified that anyone could be so irresponsible as to push this type of conspiracy loonacy. Most of us here clearly aren't influenced by this sort of rhetoric, but there may be some who are, and that is terrifying. It has the possibility of resulting in children being harmed.

Just because someone is making money off the vaccine doesn't mean it's poison. Doctors make money being doctors. Does that mean you shouldn't take your kids to see them if they're sick, or for well child visits?

Bubonic plague may be less common than it was during the middle ages, but it does still exist. Thankfully we now have antibiotics (but someone is making $$ off those, so maybe they're bad too!). And if there were a vaccine for bubonic plague and it was a problem where I lived, you better bet I'd have my child vaccinated.

I think vaccines-- including H1N1 are an excellent use of tax payer dollars.

Actually, I do know someone with Hep A. A friend of mine's mother has it. She got it while in the peace corps. She wasn't vaccinated, obviously.

[firsttimemama]

As the OP I'm a little sad that this topic is so divisive.
Let's all try to remember that we love our kids and we're doing the best we can for them with the information we have at the time.
I doubt someone who doesn't love their kids would spend time on a message board such as this.

We are no-vax, for now. I am a huge fan of informed consent and believe that with the way the vax program in the US is set up, it's really on us as parents to educate ourselves. There is healthy, curious skepticism and there are also antivax sites on the web I would never, ever cite as a "good source". But I realize that what's right for my family may not be right for every family.

I am encouraged by the poll on this board that showed 30% of parents on an alternate or delayed schedule. I am not antivax (many would assume so since we have not vax'd our son but that is not true). I would like to see the US reevaluate the vax program with fresh eyes and have all the conflicts of interest taken out of the program.

I have been struck time and time again by the intelligence of the parents on this board. We're here because we look into things, right? It's interesting that we can all do the same research and come out with different opinions.

[brandonsmom]

I eliminated wheat, dairy, soy, nuts, shellfish, and eggs when BFing to figure out what was causing DS2's eczema. (as recommeded by both the ped. and allergist.) Last I heard there was no medicine to cure food allergies. If you're allergic to it, you don't eat it!

Right, so that means you prevent allergies in your children by not exposing them to toxic metals like aluminum and mercury that cause them to react to foods. Aluminum is an adjuvant in vaccines, when they put it in the vaccines with food proteins, the immune system doesn't know whether the virus or the food protein is the invader and sometimes reacts to both. Mercury turns off certain enzymes that are needed in the chemical reaction to break down food proteins. Read up on the stuff, seriously.

[lablover]

Right, so that means you prevent allergies in your children by not exposing them to toxic metals like aluminum and mercury that cause them to react to foods. Aluminum is an adjuvant in vaccines, when they put it in the vaccines with food proteins, the immune system doesn't know whether the virus or the food protein is the invader and sometimes reacts to both. Mercury turns off certain enzymes that are needed in the chemical reaction to break down food proteins. Read up on the stuff, seriously.

Then why are there unvaxed kids who have food allergies?

[brandonsmom]

As the OP I'm a little sad that this topic is so divisive.
Let's all try to remember that we love our kids and we're doing the best we can for them with the information we have at the time.
I doubt someone who doesn't love their kids would spend time on a message board such as this.

We are no-vax, for now. I am a huge fan of informed consent and believe that with the way the vax program in the US is set up, it's really on us as parents to educate ourselves. There is healthy, curious skepticism and there are also antivax sites on the web I would never, ever cite as a "good source". But I realize that what's right for my family may not be right for every family.

I am encouraged by the poll on this board that showed 30% of parents on an alternate or delayed schedule. I am not antivax (many would assume so since we have not vax'd our son but that is not true). I would like to see the US reevaluate the vax program with fresh eyes and have all the conflicts of interest taken out of the program.

I have been struck time and time again by the intelligence of the parents on this board. We're here because we look into things, right? It's interesting that we can all do the same research and come out with different opinions.

I apologize for not being very tactful at times, but like one of my mentors says, being nice and polite isn't always the best way to get an urgent message across. In my opinion, the epidemic of autism and other developmental disorders has to be stopped and it needs to be addressed with urgency. Your darn right I love children and it kills me to see them suffer and to have well-meaning mothers blame vaccine reactions on other things. Every time my kids had a bunch of shots, I was told their fevers, screaming, gastrointestinal pain, lumps at the injection site etc. were "normal" reactions. Not so. I am angry at myself for not listening to my mother's intuition and for being so blind to it all.

My sister has two young boys ages 4 months and 2 years. They have constant colds, ear infections, runny noses, can't sleep, gastrointestinal pain (colic), and I have told her how I feel about vaccines. I know she is concerned because she keeps asking me questions, but she keeps on vaccinating them too (delayed) even though they have these symptoms. I'm very worried about her boys.

One thing I do want to put out there that you all will never hear about is that when I was pregnant with my second son in 2002, I had in my military medical records an exemption from all vaccinations (including the flu vaccine which was specifically mentioned) because of my pregnancy. The exception was Tetanus/Diptheria in case of an accident and then it would be voluntary. In approx. 2004, when the thimerosal-containing vaccines began to expire in doctors offices, there came a big push by the CDC to get pregnant women to take the flu vaccine which contains thimerosal unless you specifically ask and order a thimerosal free single dose version. Of course the CDC and its defenders will say the flu vaccine push on pregnant women was because pregnant women were dying of the flu, but I beg to differ. I believe they could not allow the rate of autism to go down after thimerosal was (supposedly) removed from the infant vaccine schedule or everyone would know.

Regardless, take this all as you may. I love people, I have been active in my community. I am well respected by those who know me.

Liz

[stillplayswithbarbies]

Of course the CDC and its defenders will say the flu vaccine push on pregnant women was because pregnant women were dying of the flu, but I beg to differ. I believe they could not allow the rate of autism to go down after thimerosal was (supposedly) removed from the infant vaccine schedule or everyone would know.

are you seriously saying that you believe that our government deliberately gave autism to babies just to hide the fact that they accidentally gave autism to babies before that?

You can't be seriously saying that. Surely I am misunderstanding what you are insinuating.

[wellyes]

brandonsmom I haven't replied to any of your posts, even though I strongly disagree with you, because it's clear you've been through the wringer. I wouldn't want to walk a mile in your shoes with what you've gone through with your son. I'm not going to engage in debate, it would be fruitless. But I am so sorry that your road has been so difficult.

[brandonsmom]

Then why are there unvaxed kids who have food allergies?

Because mothers pass their immunoglobulin on to their children. The worst case scenario is when mothers have allergies that they pass to their children and they still allow them to be vaccinated, which was the case with me/my sons. Allergies indicate there is already a deficiency in the immune system. The effects of vaccination and other environmental toxins have been cumulative through the generations, our kids are the end products.

Stereotypies and hyperactivity in rhesus monkeys exposed to IgG from mothers of children with autism.

Authors:
Martin, Loren A.1
Ashwood, Paul2,3
Braunschweig, Daniel4
Cabanlit, Maricel4
Van de Water, Judy3,4
Amaral, David G.1,3 [email protected]
Source:
Brain, Behavior & Immunity; Aug2008, Vol. 22 Issue 6, p806-816, 11p


Abstract: Autism together with Asperger syndrome and pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified form a spectrum of conditions (autism spectrum disorders or ASD) that is characterized by disturbances in social behavior, impaired communication and the presence of stereotyped behaviors or circumscribed interests. Recent estimates indicate a prevalence of ASD of 1 per 150 (). The cause(s) of most cases of ASD are unknown but there is an emerging consensus that ASD have multiple etiologies. One proposed cause of ASD is exposure of the fetal brain to maternal autoantibodies during pregnancy [Dalton, P., Deacon, R., Blamire, A., Pike, M., McKinlay, I., Stein, J., Styles, P., Vincent, A., 2003. Maternal neuronal antibodies associated with autism and a language disorder. Ann. Neurol. 53, 533–537]. To provide evidence for this hypothesis, four rhesus monkeys were exposed prenatally to human IgG collected from mothers of multiple children diagnosed with ASD. Four control rhesus monkeys were exposed to human IgG collected from mothers of multiple typically developing children. Five additional monkeys were untreated controls. Monkeys were observed in a variety of behavioral paradigms involving unique social situations. Behaviors were scored by trained observers and overall activity was monitored with actimeters. Rhesus monkeys gestationally exposed to IgG class antibodies from mothers of children with ASD consistently demonstrated increased whole-body stereotypies across multiple testing paradigms. These monkeys were also hyperactive compared to controls. Treatment with IgG purified from mothers of typically developing children did not induce stereotypical or hyperactive behaviors. These findings support the potential for an autoimmune etiology in a subgroup of patients with neurodevelopmental disorders. This research raises the prospect of prenatal evaluation for neurodevelopmental risk factors and the potential for preventative therapeutics.

[MontrealMum]

I apologize for not being very tactful at times

Maybe you're not familiar with the tone and subject of these boards since you're a new member. People around here are generally respectful and supportive of one another. I also doubt that tactful is an appropriate synonym for offensive and condescending, however, that's JMHO. I'm sure I'm not alone in disliking the unbridled anger.


I am the mother of a boy. I will always love my son, no matter what he does, no matter what he goes through in life. That is the commitment I took on when my husband and I began trying to have a child. As his mother I am the best judge of how to care for him. And his father and I are charged with his care, and making decisions on his behalf. As the mother of your children, you are the best judge of how to care for your children. Not mine, nor anyone else's.

[brandonsmom]

are you seriously saying that you believe that our government deliberately gave autism to babies just to hide the fact that they accidentally gave autism to babies before that?

You can't be seriously saying that. Surely I am misunderstanding what you are insinuating.

Karen, I'm sorry to break it to you, but the government is inactive in stopping autism when they definitely could. There are known genetic factors that make children susceptible to adverse vaccine reactions/response and even nonresponse, but they WILL NOT test for them. I am not trying to insult you, but I don't know if you'll even understand my resources, here are a few:

************************************************** *****
Relationship of HLA-DQAI alleles and humoral antibody following measles vaccination*1, , *2 Hayney, et. al. Mayo Vaccine Research Group, Rochester, MN, Dec, 1997

"Conclusion: HLA-DQA1 alleles have important associations with the antibody response to measles vaccine. Specifically, the carriage of the HLA-DQA1*05 alleles is associated with nonresponse and that of HLA-DQA1*01 alleles with hyperresponse. In addition, HLA-DQA1 homozygosity is significantly associated with poor antibody response to measles vaccine."

************************************************** ******
Humoral Response to Recombinant Hepatitis B Virus Vaccine at Birth: Role of HLA and Beyond; Miryam Martinetti, et. al.

"Tolerance to HBV peptides may have clinical implications, possibly being a marker for babies with a genetic risk of immunopathologies. In fact, many of the poor responders carried from two to four HLA-DQ β heterodimers predisposing to insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus and celiac disease. Two true nonresponders suffered from allergies and two slow responders had transient episodes of hyperglycemia."

************************************************** ******
Genetic Variation in Response To Vaccination
Community Genetics 2007, issue 10, pages 201-217
Authors: Kimman, Vandebriel, and Hoebee

************************************************** ******

Human leukocyte antigen and cytokine receptor gene polymorphisms associated with heterogeneous immune responses to mumps viral vaccine.

Inna G Ovsyannikova, et. al. Pediatrics, 2008
Mayo Vaccine Research Group, Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Rochester, MN

"RESULTS: Median values for mumps-specific antibody titers and lymphoproliferative stimulation indices were 729 IU/mL and 4.8, respectively. Girls demonstrated significantly higher mumps antibody titers than boys, indicating gender-linked genetic differences in humoral immune response. Significant associations were found between the HLA-DQB1*0303 alleles and lower mumps-specific antibody titers."

[kam]

Maybe you're not familiar with the tone and subject of these boards since you're a new member. People around here are generally respectful and supportive of one another. I also doubt that tactful is an appropriate synonym for offensive and condescending, however, that's JMHO. I'm sure I'm not alone in disliking the unbridled anger.


I am the mother of a boy. I will always love my son, no matter what he does, no matter what he goes through in life. That is the commitment I took on when my husband and I began trying to have a child. As his mother I am the best judge of how to care for him. And his father and I are charged with his care, and making decisions on his behalf. As the mother of your children, you are the best judge of how to care for your children. Not mine, nor anyone else's.


Ok, I'm a new member who has been watching/reading this board daily for more than a year, but I have to say .... :yeahthat:

[JBaxter]

Brandonsmom --

Im fairly anti/delayed vaccine as others on this board can/will tell you. Your posts are rather agressive and does turn people off to your message. You catch more flys with sugar than vinegar :)

If you tone down what you say then people will read and think about what you are saying. As it is many of your posts "I" even skip and Im on your side.

I have a nephew with aspergers and several friends with vaccine damaged children I DO know there is a connection but some of your posts come across like a bull in a china shop.

Most people dont stop vaccinating in a day. I didnt. I have been researching for almost 5 yrs.

As is my youngest has one vaccine .. carefully researched as is all the others he will receive and when he will receive them. DS3 will not receive the 2nd MMR or varicella.

I dont know if the mods will remove this but a gentler delivery of your message will get a better response :)

[MontrealMum]

Look at your own poll 40% not on the CDC recommended schedule.

I have never conducted a vaccine poll.

BTW, I might remind you that you know very little about me, or my position on vaccines. You should know that I *might* be inclined to agree with some of your positions if you were not so abrasive, offensive, condescending and had not clearly demonstrated that you don't know how to properly evaluate sources.

I don't need you to do my research for me. I have an MLIS and I know how to use it :)