Would it concern you if...

[ha98ed14]

your DC's school (PreK-6) was 58% English Language Learner ELL? Since passing Prop 227, we no longer have true bilingual education in CA, where half the day/ subjects are in English and half are in the predominant native language. (In my part of CA, it's Spanish.) Some schools were able to keep their programs by getting a waiver from parents, but most were forced to do away with them.

Anyway, as an English-only family (by ignorance, not choice), I am worried about what will happen to DD when she goes off to the local school's Pre-K. Most of the families who take advantage of the PreK program are ELL, but anyone can go who lives in that school's catchment area. I was thinking about enrolling DD as an alternative to the more costly (to me) child care center I am using. My concerns are that DD won't be able to communicate with other DC to mediate her disputes. "Use your words" only works as long as the two DC can understand each other. I am also concerned that a lot of time will be spent bringing the ELL students up to speed that DD will not be stimulated/ challenged. These concerns aren't just for the early years, but for the higher grades too. All the classes are integrated. There is no self contained ELL or bilingual education classroom.

I do have the option to send DD to another school in the district (intradistrict transfer), but to me this feels like cheating. Our town is pretty segregated wrt ethnicity and income, so sending her north to one of the wealthy schools in the district means no PreK (it is state funded preschool for Title I schools), very small percentage of ELL students (< 10%), much better API, AYP and CST scores, and a more balanced ethnic diversity within the student body. It seems better, but is it? I have Horrace Mann sitting on my shoulder telling me that education is the great equalizer, but the test scores just do not reflect that. I looked at the test scores for the school and children who are English-only score a full 2+ deciles higher than the ELL students. The same effect can be seen when you compare parent education level and economically disadvantaged. What if all the English-only children of professionals transfer out? Is that wrong? Perhaps I am overthinking it. I want to do what is best for DD, but I feel this moral obligation to bridge the gap.

Anyone sacrificed their DC to their principles and come out the better for it?

[Jacksmommy2b]

Holy Moly - that is tough and I totally understand your moral concerns and applaud your compass. But for me personally - giving my DC the advantage of a 'better' school would prevail.

In the grand scheme of things, would leaving your DD in the district make an impact to anyone the way transferring out may make an impact on her education? Do you really feel than leaving her in the orignal school would encourage other parents to do the same?

I have no personal experience here - but I do find it hard to believe that the attention of the teacher would be equally balanced between the ELL and native English speakers. If I am understanding correctly (because we have nothing like this in PA) during 'English' class time it would only be expected that the majority of a teacher's attention would be to those who do not understand and vice versa. And while I am a big fan of bi-lingual learning for children (my best friend has been trying to teach J Hinidi from birth :) ) there is a very big difference between exposing a child to other languages either through immersion or classes and having her basic education affected by her inability to understand some of the lessons.

IDK - again I have no experience - at all - but I find it hard to believe the system (as I am understanding it ) is really helping anyone. Why wouldn't they just offer both English and Spanish classes, teach ELL and SLL in both and integrate when a bilingual education can enhance the education of both groups?

I'm sorry, I probably haven't helped at all, but I totally empathize and good luck with whatever decision you make.

[jenmcadams]

It would definitely concern me. I think going to a more diverse school can offer lots of advantages in theory, but I think the disadvantages generally outweigh the advantages. My younger sister has been a teacher, instructional coach and administrator (first an AP, now a principal) at schools that sound much like yours for 10+ years. She often says that while she believes strongly that some of the most talented teachers work in schools like hers they can only do so much for their advanced/typically developing students when a large % of their students don't have the basic skills/language or basic support at home. She doesn't have kids of her own, but when asked directly, she admits that if she did, she wouldn't send them to her own schools. It sounds awful and harsh that she wouldn't send her own kids to her schools, but she feels like so much time is spent on basic/lower level instruction and a ton of time (both for teachers and administrators) is spent on social service issues that something has to give. If you had no other option available, then I'd say send her there and get involved and just be there as much as possible. But, you need to at least go in and observe this school and any of the options you could choice into (for K) to see where you want to enroll her. Peer groups are important as is having common language with friends. The level of involvement of families/parents also is key to the community of the school.

As far as feeling guilt about transferring out, I wouldn't feel too guilty. You're lucky you have the ability to opt into/transfer to another school. Is that option available to all families (in our area, anyone can try to choice into another school if there's room so long as they can provide transportation)? This may sound harsh and cavalier, but I think you need to do what's right for your child...I know people who considered sending their children to a Spanish Language Immersion school (instead of a local International School that they could have afforded) in a neighboring district because they believe strongly in public education and really wanted Immersion and this was the only one in our area. The school was 95+% native spanish speakers and free/reduced lunch population with extremely low test scores. In the end, after talking with tons of teachers, current families, etc, they decided their kids (both adopted as infants from Guatemala) would be better off in their neighborhood public school because the Immersion school students were so much further behind socially and academically and the teachers themselves said that a lot of time was devoted to the students who come in "behind."

Definitely visit both (all) options and see what you think, but I would hesitate to send my child to a school that I thought was inferior just because I thought I might be able to help it from the inside. I think a lot of us have no idea how rough the lives are of some of the kids at impoverished schools and we don't realize what a huge impact this has on the classroom/learning atmosphere. My sister has stories involving jailed parents, drugs, and physical abuse on a daily basis and those aren't the extreme cases (she also regularly deals with students have been victims of sexual abuse, abandonment, etc.) and she's in a school district that's low income, but not extreme and her school is actually over-enrolled because so many kids want to go there. If the principals, counselors and teachers are dealing with a high level of these types of issues (which admittedly are everywhere, but statistically more of a problem in highly impoverished areas), they can't do what they need to do to monitor instruction, improve programs and generally make the academics shine....add all of this to the fact that typically in these schools the parents are working so hard to just make rent/put food on the table, they often can't/aren't involved in the kids homework and it just makes the situation tough...

So, sorry for the novel and I know I don't have relevant personal experience, but whenever I see this issue come up, I think it's important to relay my sister's experience.

[kijip]

Your child's education can't be sacrificed for a political belief. I have been there and wrestled with a very similar question. The school closest to our house is adjacent to a large public housing development with mostly ESL students. If it was a good program and run well, maybe we could use it. But it is run like boot camp for children. Test scores are awful and the principal is "not know for competence" to put it mildly. It makes me mad, but I'm not sending T there. We sent him to a pretty diverse by income and race school for Kindergarten, 1 of three (we thought) acceptable choices in our cluster. Well, that was not a bang up solution for us either:hysterical:. He was miserable and learned a lot of negative ideas that year. Now he is in an excellent school, in a gifted classroom. The school is not very diverse by income and race, though it is a city public school and not a homogeneous environment. It's not want I would want as an ideal, but it is what is, in an imperfect non-ideal world and city, the best I can do for my son and my view on education. Whenever I feel too guilty, I just remind myself that it's not an all white or nearly all-white private school (one of our only other options.) For what it is worth, even Jonathan Kozol maintains that on a micro-level parents have to think of the quality of their child's school first. Big changes, making all schools in a district places parents WANT to send their children, are not going to come about because educated parents chose to send their children to failing or mediocre schools. T being in a class with kids troubled enough to need aides to monitor them one on one so they don't harm themselves or violently attack others (this was our kindergarten) is not going to do any good except make T scared of school in general. That is not the case in a lot of poorer schools, but it was a fact of life in his school last year- and to think there were 3 other schools, including the one closest to us, that on the whole are less safe and less conducive to learning than the one he went to.

[maestramommy]

I have seen a couple threads in the last year wrt your final question. If I were in your position, I wouldn't worry as far as pre-K, but I would for K and up. Having said that, I just don't know the answer to your question, because I think it depends on so many factors. Test scores aren't just a reflection of literacy in English, but also income and education level of the parents. At the same time, I have heard more than once about how teachers are just stretched way too thin in situations such as you describe. They may be skilled, well trained, and well-intentioned, but at the end of the day they are trying to meet too many different needs at once, which can result in not fully meeting the needs of anybody.

In our case we probably did NOT sacrifice our children to our beliefs, because we picked up and moved clear across the country, and are now living in an extremely homogeneous town. There are very few people of color, much less ESL families, and there actually may be more diversity in terms of income and education level.

[Tondi G]

We live in So Cal and my son is enrolled in an Elementary school just outside of our "home school" border through the Open Enrollment program. I preferred the balance of his school (racially it is a really nice mix) and yes I do think it would take away from his education to have half of the students being non english speakers in the classroom. He gets bored enough as it is with the class moving slower sometimes with mostly native english speakers! I don't feel badly that I tried and succeeded in finding him the best place possible. We even switched from this school half way through K to a charter school (he came up on their waiting list). We ended up bringing him back to this school in 1st grade cause it was better for him/us. You have to do what is best for your child and if that means putting them in a different school so they can succeed educationally so be it!

[sste]

What is the teacher/aide to student ratio? What does the ELL program/special ed services look like? This could work with a great ratio but I don't think that is all that common in California schools (or elsewhere for that matter).

We have a version of this concern and may end up sending our son to private school or moving. Our public schools, including magnet and gifted and talented, have ratios starting in kindy of thirty kids to one teacher (no aide). This is an impossible situation to begin with and then you add in a few ELL or special needs kids that require alot of attention . . . Not only am I concerned about education, I think it is a safety issue to have thirty kindergarteners and one adult.

Anyway, I agree with other posters that you need to put your child's interests first. I wonder if there is some compromise solution out there for you that is diverse but still high-quality.

[ha98ed14]

As far as feeling guilt about transferring out, I wouldn't feel too guilty. You're lucky you have the ability to opt into/transfer to another school. Is that option available to all families (in our area, anyone can try to choice into another school if there's room so long as they can provide transportation)? This may sound harsh and cavalier, but I think you need to do what's right for your child...

In my heart, I know you are right. I have to send DD to the best school I can. The reason I have a guaranteed transfer is because DH teaches at one of the north side schools. They will take DD because she is his child, but we do live in the district, so we are not doing anything covert/ against the rules. If DH was not a teacher there, we could still apply for the transfer, but it is up to the receiving school if they think there is room. Basically, DH's school would be willing to make room. His is a good school with good scores, but it is not the best in the district. The best is a K-8 program that has an experimental deal with Mac. Beginning in 2nd grade, all the students do their work on laptops. The laptops are $1500+ and parents have to pay for them.

It is crazy to me, but school performance scores are tied directly to the income and education levels (and home prices) of the surrounding neighborhoods. I guess I should not find it that surprising, but it just seems to prove that it doesn't really matter what goes on in the classroom, teacher quality, etc. It just matters what your parents do for a living and the median home sale price in your neighborhood. On DH's income, we cannot afford to live on the north side. We can live close to downtown, on the "right" side of the tracks. The south side is the really tough area. Believe it or not the neighborhood school I am referencing is a mid-range performing school. The really poor performing schools are nearly 80% ESL.

There are some logistical advantages for the local school; they have all day K, whereas the north side schools have 1/2 day. It's really about serving the needs of the population. Most of the students at DH's school have one SAHParent. In lower income areas, most families have 2 parents working. I guess I just find it disheartening that 1) even though society has done away with legally sanctioned racial segregation, it doesn't really matter because the housing/ neighborhood choices of people do the same thing, and 2) we can't afford to live in the best neighborhoods where DD would not have to transfer out and 3) that it's not ever really going to change. Poor kids and/ or ESL will continue to be lumped together and exhibit mediocre performance, while higher income will go farther in their achievement because they are starting out with more resources and preparation. *Sigh*

[crl]

You said that only the neighborhood school has pre-k, right? What about enrolling there for pre-K and seeing how it goes? Then you'd have more information to make your kindergarten choice.

Catherine

[vonfirmath]

Education levels makes sense. If the parents have education and value it, they pass on their values to their kids.

People who are better educated tend to make better incomes. Thus income is tied to education level in the first place. People with better incomes tend to buy houses that have higher home prices.

So it may have everything to do with attitude and less to do with resources than you believe.

But a stable home IS important to education. A kid that is bounced from house to house, not sure where they are going to sleep, etc. is not going to feel that learning their alphabet is that important.

[californiamom]

You said that only the neighborhood school has pre-k, right? What about enrolling there for pre-K and seeing how it goes? Then you'd have more information to make your kindergarten choice.

I agree. It may not be a bad deal. I think looking at the ELL rate alone is not a decisive factor. Quite the opposite, it may be great for your DD. Look at other factors like the quality of the teachers, the structure of the school, equipments, safety, the school's education "vision", etc.

Kids learn new languages so fast! It may be a great opportunity for your child to learn Spanish. My DD is turning 6, and she is already fluent in 3 languages and is learning her 4th now (Chinese) in kindergarten. I really do think this is a great advantage she will carry throughout her school years.

I'd give the pre-K program a shot, and then make your decision based on your experience with this school.

Good luck!

[Gena]

I agree with the others that you need to send your DD to whichever school is best for her and best for you as a family. However, sometimes the stats on paper don't necessarily tell the full story of what a school is really like. It's best to visit each school and get a feel for them.

How are your daughters speech and sensory issues coming along? Is she going to need an IEP? If so, you need to really look at what services are available at each school. Sometimes schools with higher ELL percentages have better services for kids who need this kind of help. And some kids with speech and language delays benefit from the same techniques that help ELL students. So that may be something to think about as well.

[ha98ed14]

How are your daughters speech and sensory issues coming along? Is she going to need an IEP? If so, you need to really look at what services are available at each school. Sometimes schools with higher ELL percentages have better services for kids who need this kind of help. And some kids with speech and language delays benefit from the same techniques that help ELL students. So that may be something to think about as well.

Actually, DD "graduated" from her SLP. She was assessed at the end of October and deemed to be age appropriate, or on grade level, whatever the word is. IE notified me she was no longer eligible, and I did not feel the need to fight it. She is doing well at the University daycare. Daycare also does an assessment also and hers came back within normal for self care tasks, communication and cognition. She is "working on" interactive play. The sensory issues seem to have subsided for the most part, at least the most disturbing ones ;). She stopped gagging herself and is now willing to wear shoes most of the time. Her eating tolerance for textures and temps also improved. Daycare has no issues with her with doing paints and play doh, etc. The bath screaming remains her last issue that is truly problematic, but the ped says that it may have become a learned behavior. I took her for a final eval by a very competent OT and she said that DD was hypotonic, but that in and of itself was not a huge issue. She suggested OT for it, but said if IE wouldn't cover it, to put DD in gymnastics. I haven't gotten the gymnastics thing together yet, because of time and money. (Daycare costs are taking all of my free income.) But all in all, DD seems to be getting along in the world much better than she was this time a year ago.

My real reason for wanting to explore the PreK program is because it is free. Daycare is costing me $1000+/ mo for full time. They start the Preschool/ PreK program at 3, so it would be a nice option for next school year when I am doing more student teaching. But maybe I just need to leave her where she is. She is doing very well there. I can take out a loan to pay the daycare. It is an approved cost. After paying the tuition (I spread it out over several months), paying the daycare bill is tough. I am feeling the pinch right now as tuition is due for next semester, daycare bill is due for end of the semester, and it's Christmas. But money is not a reason to sacrifice your kid's education, for sure.

I will take the advice to go and look at the program. It may be ok for PreK/ K. I know the class sizes are more limited because of the ELL. I just don't know how much of the teacher's time is devoted to bringing the ELL students up to speed. But it is worth taking a look. Thanks for the advice.

[ha98ed14]

What is the teacher/aide to student ratio? What does the ELL program/special ed services look like? This could work with a great ratio but I don't think that is all that common in California schools (or elsewhere for that matter).

Anyway, I agree with other posters that you need to put your child's interests first. I wonder if there is some compromise solution out there for you that is diverse but still high-quality.

These are great questions I need to ask when I go visit the school... Thanks for the list!

[Gena]

Actually, DD "graduated" from her SLP. She was assessed at the end of October and deemed to be age appropriate, or on grade level, whatever the word is. IE notified me she was no longer eligible, and I did not feel the need to fight it. She is doing well at the University daycare. Daycare also does an assessment also and hers came back within normal for self care tasks, communication and cognition. She is "working on" interactive play. The sensory issues seem to have subsided for the most part, at least the most disturbing ones ;). She stopped gagging herself and is now willing to wear shoes most of the time. Her eating tolerance for textures and temps also improved. Daycare has no issues with her with doing paints and play doh, etc. The bath screaming remains her last issue that is truly problematic, but the ped says that it may have become a learned behavior. I took her for a final eval by a very competent OT and she said that DD was hypotonic, but that in and of itself was not a huge issue. She suggested OT for it, but said if IE wouldn't cover it, to put DD in gymnastics. I haven't gotten the gymnastics thing together yet, because of time and money. (Daycare costs are taking all of my free income.) But all in all, DD seems to be getting along in the world much better than she was this time a year ago.


Yay for your DD!!! I'm happy to hear that she is doing so well! :thumbsup:

You must be very relieved.

[s7714]

Our default school is the one that the majority of ELL students in our city are bused to (the ones who basically know almost zero English when they start--I'm not talking about the ones who speak a fair amount of English and just need a little help with it). It gets extra money for the programs that specifically work with ELL students. I believe the ELL student population was at least 78% at that school the year before my DD entered K.

My neighbor sent her son there for one year and while she said the teachers were great, she thought a lot of time was spent focused on the ELL students vs. the other kids who needed some help. (Her son is on the spectrum, so he was supposed to be getting extra help, but it wasn't nearly as much as he's gotten at the new school she transferred him to.)

It concerned me greatly. On one hand I did view it as a opportunity for my DDs to learn Spanish as it was being used by their peers. But, the lack of attention to non-ELL students was far more concerning to me. I decided to send my DCs to a school that is just outside our designated area that has a much more balanced ELL ratio. I mean there IS a large % of native Spanish speakers in our area, but the ratio at our default school was way outside the norm because additional kids were being bused in. I don't feel guilty in the slightest for sending my DDs to a different school, because I'm doing what's best for us, not what's best for the default school's numbers!

[egoldber]

For preK, it wouldn't bother me at all. For K.....maybe. I'd have to see how it goes. I can see it working well, or it could nto work well. But there's no way to really know without trying it out.

[wolverine2]

I agree with the idea to try it for Pre-K, and then you can always switch. Really experiencing a school is the only way to really know.

We're doing this in a similar, but slightly different situation. My DS is in a pre-K program at a local urban school, but I work in a wealthy suburban district and have the option to bring him to my district. The district I work in is one of the highest performing in the state, has lower class size, tons of resources/enrichment, etc. But so far we like the school he's at, which has a more diverse population (both racially and socio-economically) and fabulous teachers. It does have more middle-class students than some other areas in the city.

I don't know yet what we'll do next year- DH wants to keep him where he is because he worries about the effect of DS being in a wealthy culture, when we're not (will DS want things we don't have, high pressure environment, etc). So far I'd be happy for him to stay where he is, but I don't have a crystal ball, and worry about the limited resources at the school and what he might be missing out on in the future. Sometimes I just think about the difference in the playgrounds and get depressed (DS's school is a structure and a bunch of asphalt- the school I work at has a huge soccer field + all the other stuff).

It's a tough call, and I agree that it's frustrating because it's just not fair. I see how great the teachers are at DS's school, and wish that they had access to all the "stuff" that my district does- and parents throw a lot of extra money at the school. But parents at DS's school don't have those resources.

In the end, I wouldn't "sacrifice" DS for my ideals, but if we decide his current school is "good enough" we will keep him there, even if taking him to my district might be "better." But we could only make that decision if we thought there were some things about where he is now that are "better" in a different way. And because we know that education does not only happen at school.

Good luck!

[ha98ed14]

It concerned me greatly. On one hand I did view it as a opportunity for my DDs to learn Spanish as it was being used by their peers. But, the lack of attention to non-ELL students was far more concerning to me. I decided to send my DCs to a school that is just outside our designated area that has a much more balanced ELL ratio. I mean there IS a large % of native Spanish speakers in our area, but the ratio at our default school was way outside the norm because additional kids were being bused in. I don't feel guilty in the slightest for sending my DDs to a different school, because I'm doing what's best for us, not what's best for the default school's numbers!

This is pretty close to the same. Our K-8 district only serves our town, so we don't bus at all. Only Spec Ed gets bussed to the schools with that program. (I say town, but it's like 130K people.) For 9-12, we merge with two other towns to the north and west.

Can I ask, are you guys in LAUSD? ABC? How did you get DCs into a school outside their catchment area? Does your district provide busing to your DC? This is another way that the segregation persists. In my district, you can transfer to another school within the same district, but the district won't bus you, so your parents have to drive you. Last year, DH had a boy who came from another school (south side, poor performing school, mostly poor and high ELL populations). The boy was gifted, and also a troublemaker, so they shipped him off to DH's school at Thanksgiving because they have a self contained GATE class. The boy thrived. Of course he did. He was bored out of his freaking mind at the other school. The parents (foreign born, mother is illiterate) spent the rest of the year trying to secure busing from the district. The district would not do it. Mom was bringing him on two public buses to get to school. At the end of the year came and they had his IEP mtg (for behavior problems) and the district would still not pay for busing, so he could not continue to attend DH's school. The mom couldn't or wouldn't bring him; I'm not sure which. It'd just sad to be because this is how the segregation continues and the cycles of poverty and isolation continue...

[ha98ed14]

Thanks for the BTDT and the words of wisdom. (There is too much to quote!) You totally get where I am coming from and I am happy to know we are not the only family with teacher parents who are facing this issue.

[AnnieW625]

your DC's school (PreK-6) was 58% English Language Learner ELL? Since passing Prop 227, we no longer have true bilingual education in CA, where half the day/ subjects are in English and half are in the predominant native language. (In my part of CA, it's Spanish.) Some schools were able to keep their programs by getting a waiver from parents, but most were forced to do away with them.

Anyway, as an English-only family (by ignorance, not choice), I am worried about what will happen to DD when she goes off to the local school's Pre-K. Most of the families who take advantage of the PreK program are ELL, but anyone can go who lives in that school's catchment area. I was thinking about enrolling DD as an alternative to the more costly (to me) child care center I am using. My concerns are that DD won't be able to communicate with other DC to mediate her disputes. "Use your words" only works as long as the two DC can understand each other. I am also concerned that a lot of time will be spent bringing the ELL students up to speed that DD will not be stimulated/ challenged. These concerns aren't just for the early years, but for the higher grades too. All the classes are integrated. There is no self contained ELL or bilingual education classroom.

I do have the option to send DD to another school in the district (intradistrict transfer), but to me this feels like cheating. Our town is pretty segregated wrt ethnicity and income, so sending her north to one of the wealthy schools in the district means no PreK (it is state funded preschool for Title I schools), very small percentage of ELL students (< 10%), much better API, AYP and CST scores, and a more balanced ethnic diversity within the student body. It seems better, but is it? I have Horrace Mann sitting on my shoulder telling me that education is the great equalizer, but the test scores just do not reflect that. I looked at the test scores for the school and children who are English-only score a full 2+ deciles higher than the ELL students. The same effect can be seen when you compare parent education level and economically disadvantaged. What if all the English-only children of professionals transfer out? Is that wrong? Perhaps I am overthinking it. I want to do what is best for DD, but I feel this moral obligation to bridge the gap.

Anyone sacrificed their DC to their principles and come out the better for it?

Are you sure you aren't living in my district??? He he. My thoughts are exactly the same as you. This is my situation too with our neighborhood school, which is 500 ft. from my house. Our school is made up of more bussed kids than it is neighborhood kids and from what I have heard from teacher/speech therapist friends who know people work there are happy with the education, but honestly that's still not enough to convince me. Our K-5 doesn't have a preschool attached but there are many like that in our district. Long Beach Unified offers school of choice so I can apply to three other schools within our district on a lottery basis. There is no gaurantee she'll get into any of them, but all three that I am most likely going to apply for (including a Spanish Immersion K-5 (ironic, huh?!), a small K-5 near Belmont Shore, and a K-8) have more local kids, and a very high satisfaction of education, plus I know parents who send their children there.

If I had to make a choice today based on budget cuts and such I'd probably opt to send Elisa to our local Catholic parish school, which is K-8, and a good choice because I'd also like her to go to Catholic or private high school (our district high schools all have 4500 average students) so that might make that transition easier. The two kindergarten classes have a max of 25 children in them, and I have heard really good things about the school.

[niccig]

I'm just echoing others. It's a difficult decision, and I understand your concerns. But that said, I would put my DC's education FIRST. I want my DS to love going to school, to be challenged and to learn. I would put him in the school that would do that best.

You also have to keep in mind the current budget crisis and how the schools are being hit with less funding, so less teachers and more students. We're a little north of you, but friends with older children are already telling me how their DS's class is being affected by the budget cuts. The smaller ratio classes for K-2 aren't happening. How is this impacting the schools you can send DD to? Teachers were already stretched thin before this happened, and now they have less aide time, more students etc.

Also know that you're not alone with this in SoCal. I know several families that were sure they would use the local public school, and as their child got closer to school age they really looked at the local school, and then chose to send their child somewhere else - charter, transfer, private. They had similar principals to you, but it came down to what is best for their DC. I agree it is unfair.

[s7714]

This is pretty close to the same. Our K-8 district only serves our town, so we don't bus at all. Only Spec Ed gets bussed to the schools with that program. (I say town, but it's like 130K people.) For 9-12, we merge with two other towns to the north and west.

Can I ask, are you guys in LAUSD? ABC? How did you get DCs into a school outside their catchment area? Does your district provide busing to your DC? This is another way that the segregation persists. In my district, you can transfer to another school within the same district, but the district won't bus you, so your parents have to drive you. Last year, DH had a boy who came from another school (south side, poor performing school, mostly poor and high ELL populations). The boy was gifted, and also a troublemaker, so they shipped him off to DH's school at Thanksgiving because they have a self contained GATE class. The boy thrived. Of course he did. He was bored out of his freaking mind at the other school. The parents (foreign born, mother is illiterate) spent the rest of the year trying to secure busing from the district. The district would not do it. Mom was bringing him on two public buses to get to school. At the end of the year came and they had his IEP mtg (for behavior problems) and the district would still not pay for busing, so he could not continue to attend DH's school. The mom couldn't or wouldn't bring him; I'm not sure which. It'd just sad to be because this is how the segregation continues and the cycles of poverty and isolation continue...

We're in Ventura County, so not LAUSD. Our district allows for "school of choice" where you just fill out an application at the school you'd like to go to. Then if there's room, they call you to say you're in. There are a few schools that don't allow it because they have high student counts. There are also two fundamental schools to which parents apply and then 100% of the students are chosen by lottery system (no one goes to those schools by default).

I honestly don't know much about the busing system for my school district other than last year there was a application to apply for busing and you had to pay for it regardless of where you lived and what school you attended. It seems like the majority of students are driven or walk, but I'm not sure if that has to do with lack of busing options or if it's just their preference. (Personally I will never stick my kids on a bus as long as I'm able to drive them just because of my bad experiences on buses growing up.) But now that I'm thinking about it, I haven't seen any buses at our school this year, so I think a lot of the busing options were shut down due to budget cuts. A friend of mine taught at the high ELL school I was talking about and I know she said kids were bused in from other areas in town, but I'm not sure how exactly they worked it!

[strollerqueen]

It would definitely concern me. I think going to a more diverse school can offer lots of advantages in theory, but I think the disadvantages generally outweigh the advantages. My younger sister has been a teacher, instructional coach and administrator (first an AP, now a principal) at schools that sound much like yours for 10+ years. She often says that while she believes strongly that some of the most talented teachers work in schools like hers they can only do so much for their advanced/typically developing students when a large % of their students don't have the basic skills/language or basic support at home. She doesn't have kids of her own, but when asked directly, she admits that if she did, she wouldn't send them to her own schools. It sounds awful and harsh that she wouldn't send her own kids to her schools, but she feels like so much time is spent on basic/lower level instruction and a ton of time (both for teachers and administrators) is spent on social service issues that something has to give. If you had no other option available, then I'd say send her there and get involved and just be there as much as possible. But, you need to at least go in and observe this school and any of the options you could choice into (for K) to see where you want to enroll her. Peer groups are important as is having common language with friends. The level of involvement of families/parents also is key to the community of the school.

As far as feeling guilt about transferring out, I wouldn't feel too guilty. You're lucky you have the ability to opt into/transfer to another school. Is that option available to all families (in our area, anyone can try to choice into another school if there's room so long as they can provide transportation)? This may sound harsh and cavalier, but I think you need to do what's right for your child...I know people who considered sending their children to a Spanish Language Immersion school (instead of a local International School that they could have afforded) in a neighboring district because they believe strongly in public education and really wanted Immersion and this was the only one in our area. The school was 95+% native spanish speakers and free/reduced lunch population with extremely low test scores. In the end, after talking with tons of teachers, current families, etc, they decided their kids (both adopted as infants from Guatemala) would be better off in their neighborhood public school because the Immersion school students were so much further behind socially and academically and the teachers themselves said that a lot of time was devoted to the students who come in "behind."

Definitely visit both (all) options and see what you think, but I would hesitate to send my child to a school that I thought was inferior just because I thought I might be able to help it from the inside. I think a lot of us have no idea how rough the lives are of some of the kids at impoverished schools and we don't realize what a huge impact this has on the classroom/learning atmosphere. My sister has stories involving jailed parents, drugs, and physical abuse on a daily basis and those aren't the extreme cases (she also regularly deals with students have been victims of sexual abuse, abandonment, etc.) and she's in a school district that's low income, but not extreme and her school is actually over-enrolled because so many kids want to go there. If the principals, counselors and teachers are dealing with a high level of these types of issues (which admittedly are everywhere, but statistically more of a problem in highly impoverished areas), they can't do what they need to do to monitor instruction, improve programs and generally make the academics shine....add all of this to the fact that typically in these schools the parents are working so hard to just make rent/put food on the table, they often can't/aren't involved in the kids homework and it just makes the situation tough...

So, sorry for the novel and I know I don't have relevant personal experience, but whenever I see this issue come up, I think it's important to relay my sister's experience.

:yeahthat: And several other responses here. It really hits home for me. My DD went to our neightborhood school with much of the same issues you describe. She was one of only three non-native Spanish speakers in her K class (the second one was from China, but her parents also spoke English.) Most of the time, when the children were acting up, the teacher would speak to them in Spanish about calming down. My DD and the other two didn't understand what she was saying were really bored. Also, a lot of the kids came from war-torn countries, or very violent backgrounds. Not their fault, but it made them kind of rough. My DD was very sweet and shy, and was picked on by them. They stole everything she owned routinely, and beat her up a few times. This went on for all of the years she went there. She even begged me to send her to Tae Kwan Do so she could learn how to defend herself. She just didn't have the same outlook of the world that they did, and did not know how to respond when she was threatened. When I finally took her out, I was met with a terrible response--that I was racist, a traitor, it was because people like me took their kids out that the school never would get better, etc. I felt so guilty, but angry that I should feel guilty for doing what was best for my DD, and angrier still that my neighborhood (which is really nice, btw) school should have come to this. Now I *thought* my son would not have these issues, since he was basically tougher than her. But you all know the story of what has happened to him. As a PP mentioned, so much of the school's focus is on helping these kids with all of the basic needs of life--meals, clothes, medical, counseling, etc. that something has to give. There are even some homeless kids who go there. And they have a right to an education, and God bless the school for trying to help them. But these kids (I am thinking of one in particular that sat near my son), have some major, major issues. They are pretty constantly disruptive in class, and need a lot of attention. Which means the other kids are not getting attention, their learning is getting disturbed or neglected, etc. The poor little boy I am thinking about finally did get expelled for bringing weapons and/or drugs and/or porn to school. In the second grade. So you have to decide if you are going to be PC enough to expose your DD to all of this at a very young age, or flee it all and feel guilty that you are being selfish. To me, it feels like I am sacrificing my child for the greater good. Hard sacrifice to make.

[AnnieW625]

The poor little boy I am thinking about finally did get expelled for bringing weapons and/or drugs and/or porn to school. In the second grade. So you have to decide if you are going to be PC enough to expose your DD to all of this at a very young age, or flee it all and feel guilty that you are being selfish. To me, it feels like I am sacrificing my child for the greater good. Hard sacrifice to make.

Oh my! I haven't heard of anything like that happening in our neighborhood school of bussed ids. I think the parents are pretty bright and all, but can only afford to live in the less affluent areas of Long Beach. I grew up and went to a really diverse elementary school and I really enjoyed it, but that was in the 80s when things were just a little different.

[strollerqueen]

Oh my! I haven't heard of anything like that happening in our neighborhood school of bussed ids. I think the parents are pretty bright and all, but can only afford to live in the less affluent areas of Long Beach. I grew up and went to a really diverse elementary school and I really enjoyed it, but that was in the 80s when things were just a little different.

That's good. Yeah, in DD's K class, her two good friends who spoke English left. I was good friends with both of their moms, too, so it made me sad, too. The one from China was very, very disappointed in the quality of education. She was a pharm rep, and her DH was in residency to be a brain surgeon, or something awesome like that. She actually sold their house, and moved to another town where the schools had higher test scores. And the other one switched her sons to a different schools because her DH demanded it. Her older son's friends--in the 3rd grade--were calling her a MILF. Her DH hit the roof, and yanked them out of that school that day.

[secchick]

We faced this issue as well. Even though we are zoned to one of the better public elementary schools and arguably the best public high school in the totally underwhelming urban school district, the middle school is a cesspool that no one is thrilled about sending their children to. There have been a number of horrific news local news stories coming out of there, in addition to the anecdotal information. That said, we were wary of homogenous and privileged private schools as well. We ended up choosing a local Catholic school (convenient location and a great extended day program) through 8th grade. We even had to take DD out of her current daycare (goes through K), which we loved and our DS currently attends, to get her in. Her school does substantial need-based aid so that no one is turned away for financial reasons and is pretty racially and economically diverse. To do this, though, we got on the waiting list when she was 9 months old because there are only 34 slots in the grade and almost all of them go to siblings of current students. Fortunately, it is a co-ed school (our second choice was girls only) so now DS will have priority and we have a decade until we have to figure out what we do for high school.

[AnnieW625]

Her older son's friends--in the 3rd grade--were calling her a MILF. Her DH hit the roof, and yanked them out of that school that day.

Oh my! I don't think I had heard of the term MILF until Seann William Scott used it one of those high school/college movies, American Pie (or Road Trip), I think and I didn't see that until I was in my mid 20s. I'd be horrified if any school age kid called me that. Doesn't say much for the parents, does it?

[jent]

Oh my! I don't think I had heard of the term MILF until Seann William Scott used it one of those high school/college movies, American Pie (or Road Trip)...

Ummm... I never heard the term until this thread :bag.

[ezcc]

There is a school near me that is 70% esl population, and we would have loved to have ds to go there. He didn't get in because we are out of zone and didn't get in on the lottery-it has a wonderful principal, small classes, great teachers. So that wouldn't on its own be a drawback (esp. for prek). But it would depend on the school.