TMI: Painful subject

[ha98ed14]

I wish I hadn't started this thread. I feel rather sick to my stomach knowing that I brought up something so personal and painful with my hypothetical "What ifs...". I have been having a hard time resolving my own BC options/ reproductive choices, and my mind has been wandering to a lot of worst case scenarios. (W/Could I cheat?, etc.) But I wasn't thinking about the other people who have faced these situations and don't want to read about them on the Board. I'm really sorry for bringing up these things that could be really painful for some people. I sincerely apologize. I think I just need to take break.

[ellies mom]

Probably. A good marriage isn't going to lessen the physical risk a mother may face if she got pregnant. A married couple may feel that the risk of losing the wife/mother isn't worth it.

Is it wrong to not tell the husband? There is a lot more grey area there.

[MamaMolly]

Man, you really are doing some deep thinking this week! First the cheating thing and now this. :)

I have a family member who had one about 30 some odd years ago. FWIW she has 3 living children, her second baby was still born so she had a lot of experience under her belt. But you know, now that I think about it there was some instability in her marriage. Her husband had a bad case of Peter Pan syndrome and would change jobs (and countries they lived in!) on a whim. So she'd become very career oriented and wasn't going to up finishing her degrees and working on building her career.

I only know about it from one of her kids. He answered the phone when the clinic called about the appointment. I don't think his mom knows HE really knows what happened, much less that I know. She and I have never discussed it. I know from having discussed that time in her life and what her husbands flighty-ness was like to live with that she was determined to take care of herself and her kids and NOT be dependent on him at all. Weird thing is that here we are all these years later and they are still married.

[hillview]

Yes. There are lots of reasons people don't want additional children.

I think there are relataionship situations where not telling the H would be a likely situation. It would not nec mean that your relationship wasn't a loving one etc.
/hillary

[pinkmomagain]

Yes. I do know someone who had at least one (if not more) many, many years ago. Very good marriage (still going strong) and produced two healthy children and one stillborn.

[wellyes]

The statistic is something like 1 in 3 women - so they certainly must.

But I just can't imagine a truly happy marriage where a woman goes through the procedure (which is, after all, an operation & requires some recovery time) and keeps it a secret from her DH - unless he is overseas or something like that.

[vonfirmath]

Friends of mine adopted a third baby from a couple with a happy marriage and two kids of their own who just didn't want a third baby, so I expect these women also must sometimes get abortions. Why?

[infomama]

Did you just see Revolutionary Road? That movie is heavy...

[ourbabygirl]

Yeah, that's what I thought of when I read this thread. I just saw it a few days ago and was very disturbed. Though the couple in the movie definitely didn't have a good marriage, I still can't see why she did what she did. What a downer.

[amldaley]

I know two women who have.

The first was not ready to be a mom, simple. Ten years later, same husband, and they have a lovely daughter.

The other has been with her partner for 18 years. They are not married as they do not believe it is necessary. They do not want children of their own. They never admonish others for their choices, or force their ideals on anyone. They have an amazing relationship. They just don't want children.

[maestramommy]

To answer your question, I think it does happen, but not necessarily without the Dh's knowledge. If the marriage is a stable and good one, there might be reasons both partners agree they want an abortion.

[JenaW]

Yes, married women DO have abortions, for varying reasons. IME as a former OBGYN PA, most were reasons of convenience.

I can't imagine any situation where NOT telling the husband would be a good idea, except in the case of a serious threat of violence/abuse. Nearly every single woman I know who has had an abortion (both patients and friends) have had some sort of post traumatic/psychological effects from it, whether it be regret down the road, feeling the loss of a child more than they thought they would, or just wondering what that child would have become. Even the ones who firmly feel that they made the right decision and would repeat it in a similar situation still had SOME emotional aspects to deal with. I am not sure how keeping something like this could be healthy for a marriage. First of all, it leaves the woman to deal with all of the emotions on her own, AND it is a HUGE "lie of omission" for lack of a better term. Of course I admit I may be biased because IMHO an abortion is NOT a small thing. It is the ending of an unborn baby's life. Perhaps those who see it as a medical procedure could more easily have it done without being affected and without seeing the need to share that info with their spouse.

[JenaW]

To answer your question, I think it does happen, but not necessarily without the Dh's knowledge. If the marriage is a stable and good one, there might be reasons both partners agree they want an abortion.

I do know of several instances where the woman chose not to tell her husband. In at least three of the cases, the info came out at a later date and was detrimental to the marriage. The husbands were devastated that their wives did not confide in them. Like I said in my previous post, unless there is a real danger of violence, I do not see how any good can come of keeping something like that from your spouse.

edited to remove potential identifying information

[Edensmum]

Yes women who are married have them, for any number of reasons. I have heard from simply not wanting anymore children, to women who accidentally conceive but have very serious effects from being pregnant, never carry babies to term and can't go through another failed pregnancy or really disabled child. I have heard of it for infidelity too. I can't say that I could ever choose that, but what someone else sets as their own limits is theirs to choose. Pregnancy is very difficult for some women, and having known women who suffer terribly while pregnant, I would not blame one of them for not continuing a pregnancy should it happen. I do think the father has a right to know and give input.

[Elilly]

Hmm.... I was always in the "pro choice but not for me" camp until I was pg with DS. My triple marker screen was sky high, indicating spina bifida, and based upon numerical data alone, even pointed towards possible anencephaly. While waiting for our specialist appt, DH and I had some very serious conversations about terminating if DS had a medical issue that he would not survive. I cannot imagine not consulting DH about this since we have a close relationship. That said, I was prepared to lie to family and friends about why the pregnancy would have ended.

[kozachka]

[quote=ha98ed14;2561451] Do you think married women in stable relationships with adequate financial resources ever choose abortion?

Yes, they do.

[quote=ha98ed14;2561451] Do you think it is wrong to have one without telling the H?

Yes, I think it would be wrong to have one and not tell DH if you are in a stable relationship.

[citymama]

Unfortunately (because I know it must be hugely traumatic to go through this), yes. My dearest girlfriend and mom of 3 in a happy marriage had one because of severe birth defects. Very close family member had one for a similar reason. And another friend and loving mom of 3 had one was not in a position to afford another - got pregnant accidentally in her early 40s, her husband had been laid off work. None of these women took the decision lightly, all of them remember the loss years, even decades later (family member's happened over 30 yrs ago), and all were done in close consultation with husbands, family and even religious/spiritual advisor.

Many who unhesitatingly oppose abortions in all circumstances do not consider that women who make these decisions do not make them lightly - it is painful and traumatic for them, for all their lives, in some cases. Taking the decisions out of women's hands is not the answer - better birth control can certainly help (although this too is opposed by many anti-abortionists). And sometimes, there are circumstances we don't ever want to dream about (severe birth defects, health issues for mom). I hope I never have to make that decision, but if I do, I sure hope someone else isn't empowered to make it for me.

[ast96]

I don't just think so, I know so. It hasn't happened to me, but I do know women in good marriages who have chosen that option.

[sste]

For sure women in good marriages have abortions. For the same reason that bad things happen to good people. As for not telling the DH, that is a heavy burden. I have not told my DH about extremely early pregnancy losses because we had so much of that in a one-year period that I did not think DH could bear any more. I can't quite imagine the situation where I would not tell him about an abortion but we have come close to that in my desire to protect him so I wouldn't completely rule it out as a possibility.

[MelissaTC]

I don't just think so, I know so. It hasn't happened to me, but I do know women in good marriages who have chosen that option.


Same here. And most were because of confirmed severe birth defects, etc...

[BabyMine]

I can personally say yes. I also take medication that is detrimental to a fetus. We have discussed waht would happen if I ever did get pregnant and we both agreed on abortion. I hope that never happens because DH got snipped.

[pb&j]

Yes, absolutely. The overwhelming majority of women who terminate pregnancies because of fetal anomalies are married and relatively financially secure.

[KBecks]

I think abortion has been made very easy for women to obtain and that yes, all kinds of women have abortions for all kinds of reasons. Any woman can terminate any pregnancy for any reason, and so yes, I'm sure that some happily married women terminate pregnancies.

I won't discuss the amorality of it. I find the subject awful and I hate to see abortion promoted and endorsed by people.

[StantonHyde]

If I got pregnant now at 44, with how hard my 2 pregnancies were and given the chances for birth defects, and the fact that we could NOT emotionally handle another child---yes, I would probably have an abortion. DH would want me to.

[VClute]

I find the subject awful and I hate to see abortion promoted and endorsed by people.

I would hate to see abortion promoted and endorsed, too! But I staunchly promote and endorse the LEGALITY of it. Even pro-choice people mourn for the women who have to make such a choice.

[kdeunc]

Hmm.... I was always in the "pro choice but not for me" camp until I was pg with DS. My triple marker screen was sky high, indicating spina bifida, and based upon numerical data alone, even pointed towards possible anencephaly. While waiting for our specialist appt, DH and I had some very serious conversations about terminating if DS had a medical issue that he would not survive. I cannot imagine not consulting DH about this since we have a close relationship. That said, I was prepared to lie to family and friends about why the pregnancy would have ended.

I completely agree. We too had troubling screening results which fortunately were nothing and we had a perfectly healthy baby. DH and I would have made the decision together and if necessary were completely prepared to not share the details of a lost pregnancy with with family/friends.

[KBecks]

I would hate to see abortion promoted and endorsed, too! But I staunchly promote and endorse the LEGALITY of it. Even pro-choice people mourn for the women who have to make such a choice.

I mourn for the lives lost. It's different.

[kijip]

Yes, they do. Their reasons are their own and I can't begin to fathom how I or anyone else on this board or anywhere could be in a better position than them to decide what is best for them and their families.

Personally, I would not be married to a man that I could not tell about any major decision, especially abortion. I can see that there are situations that might call for keeping it a secret but I tend to think the husband deserves to be included and the wife deserves to have someone to talk to about the decision with. If I were ever pregnant again, my husband would know and we would decide what to do together. I am having a hard time conceptualizing being married to someone with starkly different birth control and abortion issues than me.

[Tondi G]

yes I think people in good marriages choose abortion when they don't want another child or there are factors in their life (medications, living situations etc) where adding to their family is not right.

[TonFirst]

Ayelet Waldman & Michael Chabon immediately come to my mind. She talked about how she and her husband - parents of four - came to their decision to have an abortion on NPR - you can get the whole story here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103794433

I agree with Katie completely, and I'd venture to say that if you can't discuss a situation like that with your husband, your marriage probably isn't as good as you think it is.

[ha98ed14]

Personally, I would not be married to a man that I could not tell about any major decision, especially abortion. I can see that there are situations that might call for keeping it a secret but I tend to think the husband deserves to be included and the wife deserves to have someone to talk to about the decision with. If I were ever pregnant again, my husband would know and we would decide what to do together. I am having a hard time conceptualizing being married to someone with starkly different birth control and abortion issues than me.

They say as people get older, they get more conservative. I think I am the opposite. When I was younger, I saw the world in more black and white terms and now there are many more shades of gray because I realize life is not as simple as I thought it was. I faced issues I never thought I would being preggo. My experience being pregnant changed my own personal feelings about whether or not I could ever have an abortion. I was always pro-choice, but being pregnant made me realize how desperate (vulnerable?) being pregnant can make you, physically and emotionally. I felt like I understood for the first time why someone might choose to have an abortion. I was also more religious when I married DH. I think the combination of those experiences has changed a lot of my views from what they were when I got married.

Having not been pregnant nor had my/a crisis of faith, I think DH's understanding and the way in which he sees the world have remained pretty much the same as they were when we got married. So that is how I am married to someone who's views are not completely in line with mine.

[ha98ed14]

I agree with Katie completely, and I'd venture to say that if you can't discuss a situation like that with your husband, your marriage probably isn't as good as you think it is.

I think I responded to some of this when I responded to Katie's post, but I just have to say that I am not sure being able to discuss every situation with your spouse defines a good marriage. People change over their lifetimes. Who you are now may not be the same person you were when you got married. People have all kind of experiences that change them: war, losing a parent/ child/ friend/, having a child, moving, illness they recover from, illness that they have to live with, etc.

I think the measure of a good marriage is the ability to maintain an affirming, edifying relationship through the things you don't choose, not having the same views on things, or even being able to talk about it.

Maybe I spoke too soon, and I would be able to tell him. I can't say because I am not in the situation.

[kijip]

They say as people get older, they get more conservative. I think I am the opposite. When I was younger, I saw the world in more black and white terms and now there are many more shades of gray because I realize life is not as simple as I thought it was. I faced issues I never thought I would being preggo. My experience being pregnant changed my own personal feelings about whether or not I could ever have an abortion. I was always pro-choice, but being pregnant made me realize how desperate (vulnerable?) being pregnant can make you, physically and emotionally. I felt like I understood for the first time why someone might choose to have an abortion. I was also more religious when I married DH. I think the combination of those experiences has changed a lot of my views from what they were when I got married.

Having not been pregnant nor had my/a crisis of faith, I think DH's understanding and the way in which he sees the world have remained pretty much the same as they were when we got married. So that is how I am married to someone who's views are not completely in line with mine.

That makes a lot of sense. I can see how that could evolve into being married to to someone with different views on abortion. And of course, my husband and I are not getting divorced if one of us has a shift in political ideology (barring one of us becoming a violent extremist I suppose). Thanks for the thoughtful response and explanation. Over the just about 10 years my husband and I have been together, he has become more political and I have become less, causing us to meet in the middle on a continuum of political action but our views have both more or less stayed the same on the big issues, I think we just share a common paradigm.

Like you, an additional pregnancy is risky for me and we are done with a capital D. I am not on medication but a couple of factors make a 3rd birth risky. Not wanting to risk having to make a choice to have an abortion, we have taken steps towards making that impossible.

[hwin708]

Definitely.

I know someone who went through this. She and her husband had been very much agreed that they were a long way off from being ready to start having children. She had specific career, education, and life goals that would have been derailed. When she got pregnant, it was devastating, and she knew she wanted an abortion. But her DH changed his mind. He decided he wanted to have the child. But her opinion had not changed, and she went through with the abortion. Ultimately, they got divorced.

It was a very tough situation. But prior, they had been a very happy couple. And I think that had she known her DH would have been on such a different wavelength than her, she wouldn't have told him. It's all fine and good to say a loving relationship means being able to discuss things with your partner. But love is no guarantee that you will arrive at the same conclusion. Some issues are just impossible to compromise on. And I can totally understand how a woman could love her husband, and have a wonderful marriage, and lie so as not to have to choose between destroying her marriage or continuing with an unwanted pregnancy.

[ha98ed14]

Ayelet Waldman & Michael Chabon immediately come to my mind. She talked about how she and her husband - parents of four - came to their decision to have an abortion on NPR - you can get the whole story here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103794433



Thanks for sharing this interview. I found her insights very helpful.

[american_mama]

>> Do you think married women in stable relationships with adequate financial resources ever choose abortion?

Of course. I know four, although one was not that happily married and later divorced. Two thought their families were complete and did not want to take on the lifelong job of another child. One was a happily married, religious couple who found out their baby had birth defects incompatible with life.

I think you have to try and imagine the huge range of possibilities that bring people to the point of considering abortion, some of which do indeed apply to happily married couples. And then leave room in your mind for what you can't imagine, because with such a big decision that affects every aspect of a woman and a family's life, I don't think an outsider can really imagine the range of situations and nuances that lead women to choose abortion.

[ha98ed14]

I think you have to try and imagine the huge range of possibilities that bring people to the point of considering abortion, some of which do indeed apply to happily married couples. And then leave room in your mind for what you can't imagine, because with such a big decision that affects every aspect of a woman and a family's life, I don't think an outsider can really imagine the range of situations and nuances that lead women to choose abortion.

I totally agree. I wish I hadn't started this thread. I feel rather sick to my stomach knowing that I brought up something so personal and painful with my hypothetical "What ifs...". I have been having a hard time resolving my own BC options/ reproductive choices, and my mind has been wandering to a lot of worst case scenarios. (W/Could I cheat?, etc.) But I wasn't thinking about the other people who have faced these situations and don't want to read about them on the Board. I'm really sorry for bringing up these things that could be really painful for some people. I sincerely apologize. I think I just need to take break.

[JenaW]

I don't think you should feel any regret at all for posting this. Issues surrounding marriage, reproduction, abortion, etc often DO involve painful decision making, and sometimes hypothetical what-ifs allow us to mull things over a bit before the situation actually occurs. While, as many pointed out, most of us can't really know what we actually would do when faced with the situation, thinking about it ahead of time is not a bad thing. Abortion is a VERY heated topic on this board, but this post stayed incredibly respectful, IMO. For people like me, who see abortion as a black and white issue, it is VERY helpful to read first hand stories from people who have been faced with a horrible situation and how they have dealt with it. The vast majority (not all, but most) of my patients who chose an abortion were young, poor, single women who used abortion as a means of birth control. That heavily clouded my judgment towards the many other situations (rape, incest, fatal malformations, jeopardy to the mother, etc) that an abortion may be considered. While I can still say that abortion would never bean option I could chose, reading the stories on posts like these have completely changed my personal opinions about women who do chose do have abortions.

As for the marriage issue and whether or not you would tell your husband, again all of us have different experiences that will affect how we see this and how we would react personally. I hope I wasn't too judgmental in my response when I said I couldn't imagine a situation where keeping something like that from your spouse would be a good idea. Honestly, I really couldn't. But after reading your reply about how your views have evolved over the past several years, I can start to understand why you would feel that way. In my own relationship, it could never happen. First off, I can't keep ANYTHING from my husband. I am having such a hard time right now not blurting out the few little things I bought him for Christmas. Our relationship is such that we share EVERYTHING, which is not always a good thing :) It is just part of the make-up of who we are as people....both of us have a difficult time keeping secrets in general from each other. I think if I tried to do something as serious as have an abortion without telling him, it WOULD come out later and that would be much much worse for us than me not being honest with him up front. But once again, by reading others' experiences, it has opened up my own eyes to see things from another perspective.

So, long story short, I don't think you should regret this post at all. I pray that you are never in this situation, and I am incredibly sorry that it makes you feel so sick to read all the replies. I pray that in some way having the opportunity to read some of the other stories WILL help you, if God forbid, you are ever faced with this situation. I also hope and pray that all women who CAN'T confide in their husbands for whatever reason DO have SOMEONE that they can talk with. It is not healthy to keep things like this bottled up in side.

Anyway...not trying to prolong your discomfort or keep this thread going. I just really wanted to point out that your thread was not a bad thing at all, at least in my opinion.

[mommylamb]

I just wanted to say that I agree with JeraW (and I am really warmed by JeraW's post as well). I think this thread has been very respectful. It's such a hard subject. I'm pro-choice, and I'm currently on medication in which I am not to get pregnant, so I'm in a similar position to some of the other posters in that regard. that said, I would have a very hard time with it myself (come on birth control pills, don't fail me now). I'm lucky becuase I know I could talk to DH about it. But I can imagine that not everyone is in my position to be able to speak with their DH.

On the other side of things, I have a friend of a friend who is pro-life and when she was pregnant the first time there were serious complications, in which her doctors knew that she would eventually miscarry without an abortion, and that the longer it took to miscarry the more her health and life would be at risk. Her husband and the rest of her family, all of whom were also pro life begged her to have an abortion and she wouldn't. She nearly died, but in the end was very lucky.

[MamaMolly]

Jera said it well for me, too. I'm sorry (to OP) that this has been a painful thread. I found it respectful, sincere, heartfelt and informative. One of our better ones! Group therapy? Group soul searching maybe? These are the threads that make this board so great. That we can come together to discuss a topic so volatile and keep it beyond civil. I read words that ring true to my heart and it helps me define myself. Then I read about experiences so far beyond my own that they help me understand others better, makes me a kinder person.

Big, big, big :grouphug: OP. You may need a break but *we* need YOU. So come back soon.

[sste]

Oh my goodness, you should not feel badly. Every year on this earth, particularly those post-DC, I too feel like there are fewer absolutes in my belief system.

I think maybe what you are getting at with the telling thing is whether there are situations in which an abortion is better if it is one spouse's cross to bear so to speak. I think of it as kind of like telling your spouse about one-time cheating which was under extenuating circumstances and absolutely not going to reoccur - - it can be selfish to unload your guilt by telling your spouse. Maybe in your case what you perceive is that your husband might at heart want you to get an abortion if it put you at serious physical or emotional health risk - - or at least be conflicted and part of him would want that. But, it would destroy him personally, destroy his belief system, maybe even destroy your marriage because your husband would feel that he wants to stay with you but he couldn't "live with himself" if he did. Yeah, in that case I would consider it an act of mercy to bear that secret alone . . . but I would be worried about what the secret would do to my marriage over time.

[ha98ed14]

Jera said it well for me, too. I'm sorry (to OP) that this has been a painful thread. I found it respectful, sincere, heartfelt and informative. One of our better ones! Group therapy? Group soul searching maybe? These are the threads that make this board so great. That we can come together to discuss a topic so volatile and keep it beyond civil. I read words that ring true to my heart and it helps me define myself. Then I read about experiences so far beyond my own that they help me understand others better, makes me a kinder person.

Big, big, big :grouphug: OP. You may need a break but *we* need YOU. So come back soon.

Thanks for the kind words. I need you and this community too. I just want to clarify, "Feel sick" was a bad choice of words. People's stories were VERY helpful and I was Happy to hear them. I felt "ill; i.e., very remorseful, because of my own insensitivity to the feelings of others. I felt like this thread and my "Could you cheat?" thread were very blah-szay (no accents on this keyboard) about painful topics that real people had faced. I was not thinking of them when I posted in such a casual manner. I was ill at my own insensitivity, not anyone else's words. Just wanted to clarify that really, really important point.

[purpleeyes]

I just wanted to say that I agree with JeraW (and I am really warmed by JeraW's post as well).

.

ITA. ;) I appreciate hearing the perspective of others.

[C99]

Yes, married women DO have abortions, for varying reasons. IME as a former OBGYN PA, most were reasons of convenience.

I can't imagine any situation where NOT telling the husband would be a good idea, except in the case of a serious threat of violence/abuse. Nearly every single woman I know who has had an abortion (both patients and friends) have had some sort of post traumatic/psychological effects from it, whether it be regret down the road, feeling the loss of a child more than they thought they would, or just wondering what that child would have become. Even the ones who firmly feel that they made the right decision and would repeat it in a similar situation still had SOME emotional aspects to deal with.

I think that is what therapy is for, which is something most often done in a confidential one-on-one setting as well.

[citymama]

They say as people get older, they get more conservative. I think I am the opposite. When I was younger, I saw the world in more black and white terms and now there are many more shades of gray because I realize life is not as simple as I thought it was. I faced issues I never thought I would being preggo. My experience being pregnant changed my own personal feelings about whether or not I could ever have an abortion. I was always pro-choice, but being pregnant made me realize how desperate (vulnerable?) being pregnant can make you, physically and emotionally. I felt like I understood for the first time why someone might choose to have an abortion. I was also more religious when I married DH. I think the combination of those experiences has changed a lot of my views from what they were when I got married.



OP, thanks for starting the discussion. I actually found this statement to be among the more interesting points made in this thread (and there were many good points made, and all very respectfully). I think this happens to women more than men - we evolve, grow, change, step out of the identity we inhabited in our youth and are more empathetic to new points of view. In the course of our lifelong partnerships, it is hardly surprising that the partners views on certain issues would grow further apart. I think of couples where each partner is on different ends of the political spectrum and somehow they find a way to make it work. But they went into the relationship knowing of this divide.

I would find it hard to disagree with my DH on such fundamental issues - we are equally liberal/progressive on most social and economic issues. But I can see some more minor differences potentially becoming sharper, and feel that we'll need to acknowledge these before they become unhealthy in the relationship. Good luck to you in working through your own philosophical evolution and how this factors in to your relationship.