FINAL UPDATE IN POST #33 can't.take.it.anymore.

[maestramommy]

Laurel is really fussy. I want to say she is high maintenance, but I don't think that's quite it. She has SUCH short naps, but I know she needs the sleep because she always wakes up super pissed. Sometimes she goes back to sleep after a minute, other times she does not. She goes to bed before 6:30 every evening, and gets up around 7, sometimes earlier, usually later. But she wakes up 11:30 pm every night practically on the dot, then again 2 hours later, then again 2 hours later, and sometimes again an hour or two later. I thought she was hungry because my milk supply isn't always that great, esp. when AF comes around. But every time I nurse her she goes back to sleep without complaint. When she was much younger she used to cry and complain after a feeding if it wasn't enough. Now she just stretches out and goes down, only to wake up again 2 hours or less later. I have been topping off her bedtime bottle with formula, and also have been offering her a 4oz bottle of formula before afternoon nap. Usually she finishes it off, but the last 2 days she has refused not only her nap bottle but her bedtime bottle. Last night she woke up at 10:30 for her first nursing.

We also thought it might be teething, so I've been giving her Tylenol before bed, and sometimes before afternoon nap. She's almost 6 months, at which time I was going to try Motrin. She's been drooling and chewing almost nonstop during her waking hours.

When she has these short naps, it's not long before she starts to fuss, and nothing I do seems to help, so I put her down again for nap, but it lasts about 45 minutes, and she's crying again.

To say that I'm tired and fed up wouldn't do it justice, but I'm also totally baffled. I was even wondering maybe reflux, even though she hasn't spit up in months, and has just started doing it lately, once in a while, a tiny dribble here and there. When she's awake and "full", she'll sit in a chair and watch me work, after that it's on my back until it's time for her to go to bed again.

Her pooping and peeing is totally normal. We've haven't started solids yet.

She's has a wellcheck in a couple of weeks, so I'm just wondering when I bring this up with the ped, whether there's anything I should keep in mind?

[AnnieW625]

Hugs to you, it sounds like teeth but I too think it might be reflux or gas. Maybe try some Mylecon. Elisa was never a big spitter upper, but had gas galore and Mylecon was a lifesaver. Also at night what about trying a little formula. I know it might not be a popular choice, but if it makes night time just a little easier it might be worth a shot. Good luck and lots of hugs to you.

[elektra]

Silent reflux? I would ask the ped about that. Hope you can get some answers so you both can start sleeping more!

[egoldber]

It really does spund like reflux. The extra saliva from teething can exacerbate reflux.

[WatchingThemGrow]

Oh, Melinda. That sounds SO painful. I'm in nearly the same situation as you (DC wise) and I'd be freaking OUT if that were happening here.

How do you feel the feeding thing is going? Is she gaining? Ready for solids? I can't believe her naps are so short. My DS2 is solidly in his 2 nap/STTN routine, but he's big and totally weaned. Do you guys usually CIO? We did that with DD when she was Laurel's age and it made all the difference. May not be for you, but it was a lifesaver for us! Sorry things are so rough.

[khalloc]

She sounds alot like my son. At 6 months he was still waking up all night long to nurse. Finally at 6 months I couldnt do it anymore. I stopped listening for him on the baby monitor and would only turn that on, if I woke up after midnight on my own. Then if he cried I would go nurse him. Gradually he got better and better. He never took a good nap though. He did at home I guess, after like 8/9 months old, but not at daycare. He finally sleeps a good 2 hours at daycare now, but only because all the kids sleep together on cots in the same room, so he doesnt feel like he is missing anything I guess. He is 20 months old now. I dont have any experience with reflux, but I dont think what your describing necessarily means reflux.

[Wife_and_mommy]

:hug:

You sound like me after DS was born.

Looking back, I see now it was just his temperament and personality to be a fussy, high-maintenance(which I would use to describe him ;) ) kid. He is still very much this way, just differently than when he was a baby.

He didn't sttn until 17 months. Sleep training helped slightly but it was still a hellish 17 months.

I'd suggest you nurse more during the day to try and fill her up, in the a.m. esp. when your milk is more in abundance. Are you drinking enough water? That was a huge factor with my DD. I didn't realize how dehydrated I was when I nursed her. The difference was *huge* between kiddos when I made sure to drink drink drink with DS.

Hope this helps. :hug:

[Indianamom2]

Melinda, do we have long lost twins?

Seriously, I could have written, word for word, this EXACT post, only DS #2 is a tiny bit younger.

The only difference in my case is that Ds is not gaining enough weight. I am 100% certain he has reflux and he is THE.HARDEST.BABY.TO.HOLD.

I went in last week to our pedi (yet again) and begged for help. Because of his weight, we got re-referred to a second pedi GI. He is 100 times worse now than he was as an infant and getting less than 2 hours of sleep at a time is not making me a very patient momma.

Have you tried any meds for reflux? Don't know how you feel about it, but it might be worth a conversation with your pedi.

I don't have any answers (obviously!) but I can 100% empathize and it stinks. We're quite literally taking our show on the road this evening for a 12 hour car trip to the East Coast and I am dreading it more than you imagine...well maybe you could imagine.

I'm sorry...you're not alone....and I hope you find answers ASAP.

:hug:

[arivecchi]

I don't know anything about reflux, so I would look into that first, but both of my kids woke up every two hours on the dot until we CIO'd. We did it at 4 months with DS1 and 5 months with DS2. I just could not take it anymore. Hope you figure out what is going on! :grouphug:

[maestramommy]

I have actually been doing CIO since slightly before 4 months. I just couldn't take it anymore, and it was pretty successful. We just put her down for naps and nighttime now. Sometimes she cries, usually she doesn't. If she wakes up less than an hour after going down, I'll let her cry a few minutes. Sometimes she goes back to sleep, usually (like today) she doesn't.

I'm not thrilled about reflux meds, but I'd be willing to let her do the barium swallow test first.

As for weight gain, by her 4th month wc she was gaining well in terms of actual weight, but falling down and downer on the chart. I wasn't TOO concerned, because all of my kids did this no matter where they started on the chart (Dora at the bottom, Arwyn at the top). I am curious to see where she is at this next wc.

I think she is probably ready to start solids (although I could be wrong), but I started with formula first in case she really was hungry, so as to get more calories into her. However, this doesn't seem to be helping with either the sleep or the fussiness. As I write this she has been on my back for almost half an hour. I wouldn't be surprised if she falls asleep soon.

ETA: about the bottle, on the few occasions we tried to give her a bottle in the middle of the night, she wouldn't take it. Screamed her head off. I thought maybe she wasn't hungry, but she was, just not for the bottle. We haven't tried it in a while, but I guess we could. I'm just not sure what kind of goal is reasonable for her age. Get her to STTN? I'd settle for waking less often, and not before midnight.

[jse107]

Silent reflux is my vote. Both my kids had it. Weight gain is not always a good indicator of reflux--both my kids were gaining weight just fine. They really weren't throwing up noticeably either. It just comes up, burns, and then goes back down. Laurel may have always been doing this, but it's just more noticeable now if she's teething.

Truthfully, there really aren't many side effects too the meds (never noticed any with my kids) and it made a world of difference. The other thing to consider, which you probably already have done, is that there could be some type of food intolerance also going on. We had that here as a complicating factor to the reflux. Both my kids were Milk-Spy Protein Intolerant. I'll spare you the details, but we ended up on a hypoallergenic/perscription formula.

I'd see if you can get a referral to the ped. GI. based on what the ped. says.

Sorry you're going through this--I vividly remember those days, and am glad we're past them!! Hugs to you!

[g-mama]

You've gotten lots of good advice. I just want to offer a hug! :hug:

Hang in there, mama. You're doing a great job.

[maestramommy]

I remember mentioning silent reflux to Dh last week. He snorted and said, "Silent reflux?? Nothing silent about it!":p

The reason I started wondering about it is because there are many stretches throughout the day where she is such a happy, snuggly, interactive baby. Historically she would only fuss if she was 1) hungry, or 2) tired. Well, I know she must be tired a lot during the day because her naps are too short. But the only time she really cries is when she wakes up from those naps. At night when she wakes, she's not unhappy at all. Were it not for her getting more insistent I would just ignore her, because it seriously sounds like she is talking to herself and having a grand ole time.

[eliasmom]

:hug:. Maybe a combination of silent reflux and teething??

[firsttimemama]

Maybe I'm the only one, but this sounds normal to me. The nursing pattern at night sounds really common to me (and I hang out with tons of nursing moms). My son also took 40 minute-ish naps at one point, and his sleep cycles seemed to be 40 min. Sometimes I could get him back down for another 40, sometimes I couldn't. Also, I find that with my friends who have more than 1 child, the baby often takes short naps.

Waking frequently at night (in the absence of sleep training) is really pretty normal. And since nothing works for every kid, maybe sleep training doesn't work for this one? (if she doesn't seem to be responding to it) I am a big believer in mommy gut, by all means if you think this is reflux definitely have it checked out, but it just sounded pretty normal to me. I can imagine how exhausted you must be, though.

[mmsmom]

This sounds exactly like my DD! But now at 10 months my DD is taking 2 good naps and sleeping 11-12 hours at night. She was on Zantac early on though in the end I don't think reflux was her issue. But it is certainly worth a try & Zantac is considered very safe.

My DD woke a lot at night too. I would nurse her b/c it was just the fastest way to get her back to sleep. But I did start feeling like she was waking more with gas/digestive issues and she probably wouldn't have it if she wasn't eating. So at about 7 months (after I started her on solids) I just stopped nursing her at night. I would go in & rock her back to sleep or bring her to our bed & because she would go back to sleep without nursing I realized that she probably wasn't hungry. Then about a week after I stopped feeding her at night I did CIO and it was very easy... sleeping through the night after 3 nights.

I had the same with very short naps. She was always tired because she just didn't sleep enough. She was taking 3-4 short naps a day and I tried everything to get her to fewer, longer naps. Then all of the sudden at about 9 months she just started napping better. Now it is 2 naps a day which are 1-2 hours each.

So hang in there! I realize this may not work for you but hang in there. She may just be slow to get the hang of sleep and self-soothing.

[maestramommy]

Maybe I'm the only one, but this sounds normal to me. The nursing pattern at night sounds really common to me (and I hang out with tons of nursing moms). My son also took 40 minute-ish naps at one point, and his sleep cycles seemed to be 40 min. Sometimes I could get him back down for another 40, sometimes I couldn't. Also, I find that with my friends who have more than 1 child, the baby often takes short naps.

Waking frequently at night (in the absence of sleep training) is really pretty normal. And since nothing works for every kid, maybe sleep training doesn't work for this one? (if she doesn't seem to be responding to it) I am a big believer in mommy gut, by all means if you think this is reflux definitely have it checked out, but it just sounded pretty normal to me. I can imagine how exhausted you must be, though.


Well, the waking frequently at night seems almost normal because she isn't actually unhappy when she wakes, and she does go back down after nursing. It's very tiring but not stressful because she does go down. It's the daytime that is brutal. In the last 2-3 weeks her longest nap has been MAYBE one hour, max. A lot of times they are 30 minutes or less. Now THAT doesn't seem normal to me, particularly when she wakes up suddenly crying very hard. I don't have a video monitor, and sometimes I wonder whether she ever slept at all.

[DrSally]

I'm sorry this is happening. FWIW, DD woke up 5 times a night to BF until 16 months when I just said "enough". We did CIO and it worked in 1 night. OBviously she was not in "need" of the BM at that age. It's so hard to tell, and obviously Laurel is much younger. Is it possible she's waking up during her normal sleep cycles and mad that she's awake? I think this is why DD would cry sometimes. If DH was home, I sent him in and cried to comfort her. That and she was used to me coming in to nurse her, so she would cry until I came.

[maestramommy]

Update: okay last night she woke up at 10ish, the earliest ever, about 15 minutes after I was done pumping. I swear she knows when I'm pumping and times it:p I did manage to nurse her and get her to go back down. But she woke again at 1ish, 2:30ish, 4ish, and finally 5ish. At the last waking I just couldn't get up. Dh said, "just ignore her, she's not upset." And she wasn't really, just talking and complaining to herself. I fell asleep, and when I woke up again it was all quiet. It's 7:15 now and she just starting to talk again.

So this is the way she sounds when she wakes at night, talking and complaining to herself. Maybe I should just ignore, at least for the first waking. Now, she did cry after every single nursing, but I just switched to Fenugreek from More Milk Plus yesterday so I might need time for it to start working. But we'll see. Right now I've got a raging headache from all the wakings. And a rehearsal this morning, and a performance this afternoon. Oy!

[deannanb]

Update: okay last night she woke up at 10ish, the earliest ever, about 15 minutes after I was done pumping. I swear she knows when I'm pumping and times it:p I did manage to nurse her and get her to go back down. But she woke again at 1ish, 2:30ish, 4ish, and finally 5ish. At the last waking I just couldn't get up. Dh said, "just ignore her, she's not upset." And she wasn't really, just talking and complaining to herself. I fell asleep, and when I woke up again it was all quiet. It's 7:15 now and she just starting to talk again.

So this is the way she sounds when she wakes at night, talking and complaining to herself. Maybe I should just ignore, at least for the first waking.

get some ear plugs (for you) and try ignoring the "talking" - she'll learn to go back to bed - and you will hear the "real crying!"

Good luck!

[egoldber]

I definitely misunderstood. If she is not really crying, then I would not go in to her. But it has been my experience that kids who are very fussy in general are often not good sleepers, in the sense of STTN easily or even with sleep training. I have read some stuff indicating it is because their brains are truly wired differently and that they have difficulty shutting out outside stimuli.

[WatchingThemGrow]

get some ear plugs (for you) and try ignoring the "talking" - she'll learn to go back to bed - and you will hear the "real crying!"

Good luck!
Yeah, I think (JMO) that if you ignore it when you know she's well-fed, she'll get some rest and learn to settle back down on her own. Around that time, I pick two naptimes - like 9 and 2 and an 8:30pmish bedtime. We work towards that and try to keep them awake all the other times. I'm wondering if she's getting too much sleep if she's going down at 6:30?

When we did CIO, we did it over a weekend and really let them cry until they went back to sleep. It was hard, but I felt 100% better after getting solid rest the rest of the year!

[Melarina]

I wonder about silent reflux too...something we're familiar with in this house.

If you do reflux meds, Zegerid -- the powder packets -- has been good for DS after trying three other meds.

[DrSally]

I started doing that too at a certain point--not going in when they are just talking/complaining/yaking. It sort of gets them used to the fact that you're not going to go in there and nurse every time they wake up, KWIM?

[ThreeofUs]

Hi, Melinda -- I've been lurking on your thread but haven't had time to reply. Honestly, your DD sounds a lot like my DS2.

I too couldn't get enough sleep and just decided my choice was night feedings vs my ability to mother. My strategy (well, before he got sick, anyway) was to pick one night feeding every 3 months or so and phase it out. (I had gotten to 2 down out of 5.) He complained to himself for about 3 nights at the same time and then let go of that feeding.

I'm a softie, so if he cried a bunch about the dropped feeding, I stopped for a week and then tried again.

[hellokitty]

Melinda, have you tried swaddling? I wrote it off, but was so desperate two wks ago, b/c DS3 is the same way. IF he takes naps, they were only about 10-15 min long (fortunately, night sleep is ok for us though). It was driving me nuts. Several friends kept telling me to swaddle and I kept resisting, b/c this kid has never liked to be swaddled. Lo and behold, the swaddling has worked. He even took a 4 hr nap the other day, which has NEVER happened past the newborn period. We don't swaddle at nighttime, b/c he sleeps ok at night w/o it, but for naps, he HAS to be swaddled, he fights it at first, then starts to let out these little sighs and before I know it, he konks out. {{{HUGS}}} I hope it get better for you. DS1 and DS2 were up every 2 hrs throughout the night for the first 9 mo of their life, it was sooo hard. DS3 is different, he only wakes up once at night, BUT this kid doesn't like to nap either, while my other two were not difficult to put down for naps. It's amazing how each child is so different, even with this being my 3rd baby, there are issues you'd think I'd have under control now, but sometimes the baby has other ideas...

[Moneypenny]

You know, DD went through that starting at about 5.5 months - not outright crying but just fussing. At first, DH or I went to her every time, and it would take forever to get her to sleep. One time we ignored it, and she was out within 5 minutes. Turns out our going in there just made it worse but if we left her alone, she'd be quiet very very quickly. (We would go to her for real crying, but that rarely happened.)

[maestramommy]

UPDATE #2: Yikes! Okay, whatever the problem is, it's really during the day. We had a rehearsal this morning, and Laurel took a catnap on my back during. When we got back it was around lunchtime, and while I was making lunch I noticed that she had drifted off back there, so I put her down, she cried for a minute then fell asleep. 25 minutes later I hear howling on the monitor. I had a 4 oz bottle made up, which she totally refused, only wanted to nurse. So I did, but when I was "empty" she started to fuss so I tried the bottle again. She had mellowed out by this time and down almost all of it. I put her on my back again while I'm doing everything else, then about an hour later I notice her head falling on me again, so I put her down, she fusses for less than a minute, then falls asleep again. 30 minutes later she is SCREAMING. I am in the middle of something, so I finish it up (today is really hectic lol!), and suddenly she stops crying. She does do that sometimes. As I am typing this it sounds like she is trying to get back to sleep. It's quiet, then I heard a complaint, then quite again, etc.

I tried to get an earlier appt with the ped, but it turns out he's on vacation next week, so I'd have to see someone else. I really don't want to do that because he knows her history. So I guess we'll wait til the 4th. In the meantime, don't really know what to do.

Hellokitty, We haven't swaddled Laurel since before 3 months. She just really hated it, and slept even less (yes, even less!). Besides, she's 6 months now. Isn't it a little late? And I don't have anything big enough to swaddle her with.

Beth, it's entirely possible that she's just fussy, and not a great sleeper. In which case I guess we're stuck, because I don't have any strategies for not good sleepers:p She seems to fall asleep very easily on my back, and sometimes in the car, and (lo and behold!) at bedtime. But daytime is really brutal. Right now her sisters are sleeping so there isn't any noise or even movement in the house except me.

ETA: Question for the reflux parents: is it possible to have problems only during the day?

[boltfam]

It sounds to me like it could be reflux, too, but I guess you won't really be able to do anything until the 4th. If it were me, I might see the other doctor just for the reflux issue and still see my reg ped. for the well child. I'm a wimp, though, and at some point, my sanity is worth paying an extra co-pay. I'm sorry you're going through this...it can be so tiring when you're waking up at night and not getting a good break during the day. Hang in there! :hug5:

[DrSally]

I would think if it was a reflux issue, it would be all the time?

[mommyapb]

[ ETA: Question for the reflux parents: is it possible to have problems only during the day?[/QUOTE]

Both of my DC had reflux and DS had a milk/soy protien intollerence along with it. The both were wonderful sleepers at night (11-12 hrs) but the daytime naps were terrible. DD never napped well during the day & DS didn't start to nap well until 6-7 mos of age. I feel for you completely & hope you have some extra hands to give you a break everyonce in a while. There were days I was seriously going to go crazy. I am so jealous of people who have "easy" babies. I keep telling DH we are done at 2 kiddos b/c I couldn't handle another reflux/ mspi baby.

Hugs!!!
Amelia
DD 3/06
DS 3/09

[mecawa]

I'm late to joining in on this conversation but DD2 is a reflux baby and soy milk protein intollerance baby as well. Her problem was addressed while she was in the NICU (so by 2 months of age) so for me to determine if it was just during the day is hard because she wasn't on a typical schedule yet, ykwim.
I can tell you at that age she was miserable all the time, and couldn't keep anything down, she also did that whole arching thing every time we tried to feed her and eventually developed an aversion to being fed. I had to stop giving her breastmilk because her food intolerances were soo bad (blood in stools etc) we had to switch her to Nutramigen. Even now (12 months in another week) if we miss a dose of prilosec the spitting starts again but she doesn't seem uncomfortable with eating anymore, and is now an excellent night and day sleeper.

Now your daughter to me (and I am not a doctor/medical professional and don't want to be one,lol) sounds like DD1. DD1 was not a reflux baby, and had no food intollerances. She was exclusively breastfeed until 12 months, and refused all bottles. She slept through the night at 10 weeks (12 hours!!) during the day she did not sleep AT ALL!!!!!!!! THe only time she slept was in the swing, in the baby bjorn, in the car, etc. and it was for very short periods of time. She would wake up screaming and wanted to be nursed. THis went on until she was 8 months old, when suddenly she would take two one hour naps during the day. We tried everything, including swaddling, and she hated it and slept even less. She will now be 6 on Sat. she still has the type of tempermant!!! It's like it was just her, she was a fussy baby, and is a fussy 6 yr old (but does sleep, and is SUPER smart which now makes her more bearable, lol) Reading your posts just reminds me of her.

I hope she stops it soon, and when you see the doc they can resolve the problem, both for you and her.:)

[maestramommy]

I
Now your daughter to me (and I am not a doctor/medical professional and don't want to be one,lol) sounds like DD1. DD1 was not a reflux baby, and had no food intollerances. She was exclusively breastfeed until 12 months, and refused all bottles. She slept through the night at 10 weeks (12 hours!!) during the day she did not sleep AT ALL!!!!!!!! THe only time she slept was in the swing, in the baby bjorn, in the car, etc. and it was for very short periods of time. She would wake up screaming and wanted to be nursed. THis went on until she was 8 months old, when suddenly she would take two one hour naps during the day. We tried everything, including swaddling, and she hated it and slept even less. She will now be 6 on Sat. she still has the type of tempermant!!! It's like it was just her, she was a fussy baby, and is a fussy 6 yr old (but does sleep, and is SUPER smart which now makes her more bearable, lol) Reading your posts just reminds me of her.
.

Aack!:hysterical:Sorry, don't mean to laugh, but even my sis was asking me on FB if it was possible Laurel is just fussy and a bad sleeper for no apparent reason, and didn't I tell her a while back that some babies are like that. I guess it's just karma for me after having 2 good sleepers. It's not enough for me to sympathize with parents of fussy bad sleepers, I have to have one as well! Well, if she turns out to be super smart, I guess that could be one consolation, although we are now used to mellow boringly average children, so I don't know how we'll cope:p I wonder why each child we have seems to ramp up the level of excitement in our home?:ROTFLMAO:

She also seems to be hitting her stride with separation anxiety (early!). On my back she is the most social baby ever, and chats with my stand partner through most of rehearsal. But if I hand her over to her just for a moment, she will be howling in less than 30 seconds. Even Dh has to think fast and distract her if I have to leave or she bursts into tears. It's quite funny, and very stressful at the same time.

I would be VERY SURPRISED if she turned out to have any food intolerance, which is why I haven't responded to the posts about that. We have never had any history of such a thing, and she has absolutely no symptoms beyond the poor daytime sleeping. On a final note, I really want to thank people for responding. You'd think that having a third child would make me an old hand, but God and Mother Nature just like those darned curve balls!:p

[DrSally]

I wonder if her daytime sleep problems have anything to do with separation anxiety? When DD hit that stage, I noticed that it was harder for me to leave the room after putting her down, she'd cry b/c she didn't want me to leave. Whereas, previously, she just knew the routine and would turn her head and close her eyes when I left.

ETA: So, I wonder if during her natural sleep/wake cycles, she's waking up and saying, "where the heck are you, MOMMY!"