New in flight rules?

[bubbaray]

Has anyone heard of the new in-flight rules when flying over US airspace?

Media here in Canada is reporting as follows:

"The final hour of flight customers must remain seated, will not be allowed to access carry-on baggage, or have personal belongings or other items on their laps," the country's largest air carrier said, citing new U.S. Transportation Security Administration policies.

Don't get me wrong, I understand wanting to have security before and during the flight. Got that. But, if these rules are as reported, that basically means that there are going to be a lot of unhappy children on flights in the future. I mean, the only way I can keep my kids remotely entertained in flight is with food (from carryons) and a DVD player or laptop either on the tray or in our laps. Plus, if your child needs to go to the bathroom during the last hour of the flight, well you try telling a 3yo that they can't go the bathroom....

[hillview]

Ugg have NOT heard that. Cannot imagine they can really do this.
UGG
/hillary

[TwinFoxes]

Ugg have NOT heard that. Cannot imagine they can really do this.
UGG
/hillary

I hadn't heard these new rules. But these are the same rules that were in place right after 9/11 for flights into DC and NY. They were very serious about it then. They stopped a dad and kid on the way to the loo on our return flight on our honeymoon (we were married 2 months after 9/11).

ETA pulling into Detroit airport. Wish me luck!

[kristac]

Googled and found this:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/26/travel-q-and-a-about-terrorism-attempt/

http://www.aircanada.com/en/news/trav_adv/091226.html

[Ceepa]

Yes. Flights into DC had special rules that were super strict. Authorities didn't mess around and passengers respected the rules completely.

I hadn't heard about the rules OP mentioned recently. Maybe they're temporary?

[SnuggleBuggles]

The headline I saw just talked about staying in your seat the last hour. I can't imagin having to stow everything! Even I'd be insanely bored let alone a 3yo!

Beth

[JBaxter]

We are flying a couple times this coming year. If they would deny my toddler ( not thinking he will be potty trained but you never know) or my 6 yr old a trip to the bathroom I WILL let them pee on the floor to avoid wet clothes.

Im in agreement there will be alot of screaming kids.

[lizzywednesday]

I have a friend who works for the TSA and haven't asked him about this policy yet.

Keep the TSA website bookmarked for updates:

http://www.tsa.gov/index.shtm

And don't forget about the TSA blog, which is how the public can talk to TSA about policies & frustrations:

http://www.tsa.gov/blog/

There's nothing about it on the TSA site currently, but that can change at any time.

The most that's on there is that passengers should expect extra security measures on all flights, however, it will vary from flight to flight depending on origin; I think they are going to be extra-vigilant on international flights with a different decree for domestic travel.

[jenandahalf]

A few years ago they were banning people from taking their keys and wallets onboard for a couple of weeks and banning baby bottles etc (obviously the liquid limits are still in place from that threat). If they feel it is warranted they will do it unfortunately.

[3blackcats]

ETA pulling into Detroit airport. Wish me luck!

OT, TwinFoxes, I just left the DC Suburbs and pulled into Detroit :)

[shawnandangel]

I was going to post this! Obviously someone without children thought up this wonderful idea. Once they have a few wet seats for the next passengers to enjoy they'll rethink this rule.

[Fairy]

Sorry, but I'm with jbaxter. They wanna limit his DVD player? Fine. They wanna forbid his little bag o'stuff, which is like his security blanket on flights? Fine. But if they think I'm going to let my child pee in his pants or wear a diaper at age 5, they can kiss my ass as they bend over to clean the floor from having been temporarily used as a potty.

[MontrealMum]

My mom flies back to MI tomorrow. I'll let you know if there's been any flight rule changes when she gets there, because I'm sure it's something she'll notice.

[kayte]

Here's the CNN article.


http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/12/26/us.passenger.restrictions/index.html

[jenandahalf]

I think that so long as you make sure they go before the one hour kicks in they should be fine. Unless they have been chugging back the water they shouldn't need to go more than once an hour, especially since flying dehydrates them too. I always make a point of making sure my daughter goes before the seat belt light comes on even if she says she doesn't need to go.

[jgenie]

So what happens if you have a baby or toddler with a dirty diaper? Do you change them in their seat or leave them dirty for the hour plus it takes to get off the plane?

[bubbaray]

I think that so long as you make sure they go before the one hour kicks in they should be fine. Unless they have been chugging back the water they shouldn't need to go more than once an hour, especially since flying dehydrates them too. I always make a point of making sure my daughter goes before the seat belt light comes on even if she says she doesn't need to go.

Well, I guess I must be doing something wrong, because I'm completely unable to MAKE either my 5.5 yo or my nearly 3yo go to the bathroom when *I* want them too. Trust me, no one on the plane wants me to try to force either of my children to even walk to the bathroom if they don't want to. It won't be pretty.

[bubbaray]

So what happens if you have a baby or toddler with a dirty diaper? Do you change them in their seat or leave them dirty for the hour plus it takes to get off the plane?


Change them on the seat. Preferably beside a single, childless person. Ring the steward/ess bell and hand the dirty diaper to that person.

Seriously, though, what else could you do?

I'm with Fairy and Jaena. Seat/floor as toilet is the only possible solution to this stupid rule.

[JBaxter]

I think that so long as you make sure they go before the one hour kicks in they should be fine. Unless they have been chugging back the water they shouldn't need to go more than once an hour, especially since flying dehydrates them too. I always make a point of making sure my daughter goes before the seat belt light comes on even if she says she doesn't need to go.



Ummm maybe boys are different than girls. My older 3 could manage to have to go pee in the oddest places and could never pee on command. OH and NO WAY will I leave Jack in a dirty diaper and will hit my call button to have them come take it from me. Just hinting they would have to wait an hour would insure a full bladder.

[Momof3Labs]

I'm with Fairy and Jaena. Seat/floor as toilet is the only possible solution to this stupid rule.

Why not the barf bag, at least for little boys? I'm sure that the flight attendants would love to be handed that one, too.

[jenandahalf]

I guess that's one of the very few benefits to waiting until 3.5 to potty train, I have always made my daughter at least sit on the toilet before we left the house etc if I knew it might be 30 minutes or more until she would get to go again. She won't tell me she needs to go until she NEEDS to go so I have to be on top of it at all times!

Maybe you can try to get the habit started in advance of your next trip?

[JBaxter]

I guess that's one of the very few benefits to waiting until 3.5 to potty train, I have always made my daughter at least sit on the toilet before we left the house etc if I knew it might be 30 minutes or more until she would get to go again. She won't tell me she needs to go until she NEEDS to go so I have to be on top of it at all times!

Maybe you can try to get the habit started in advance of your next trip?



What is THAT supposed to mean?

I always have said go pee we are leaving. If a child doesnt HAVE to go they wont go. I havent ever MADE a child sit till they peed and WILL NOT do so for a airline flight. I guess I parent a little differently.

[TwinFoxes]

Well I just flew in from Detroit, and those rules were definitely not in place. I haven't read all of the posts, I have a feeling it's only for international flights, and maybe just transatlantic/transpacific?

I'm sure kids peed on the floor/in their seats back in 2001. The TSA doesn't care, it's not like they're cleaning it up.

[jenandahalf]

I meant that we have just always done it and she has never really protested for that reason - she is used to it. If you're already doing that and your kids don't respond to it then fair enough. I was just giving my experiences, not questioning your parenting. But thanks for letting me know how you feel about mine.

[bubbaray]

Trust me, I try to get my kids to go to the bathroom when it suits *me*. As in, I've tried: bribes, threats, forcing them, etc. Seriously, I've tried it all. They.will.not.go.to.the.bathroom.unless.THEY.want. to.

ITA with Jaena's post above that if I tell them "go now, you won't be able to go for an hour", they WILL have to go at exactly 1 minute into the 1 hour ban on peeing. That is a given.

Everybody's parenting is different, everyone's kids are different. It probably comes as no surprise to anyone here that my girls are stubborn like mules. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.... :ROTFLMAO:

Lori, ITA about the barf bags. Hadn't even thought about that. Though I suspect if you changed a diaper beside a single, childless person, the barf bag would have already been used, LOL. I'm not sure girls could pee into a bag and I do not want to have to find out!

DH has been talking about RVg down to Disneyland next trip instead of flying. Its starting to sound like a good idea!

[Gena]

We're in the Detroit area visiting family and our hotel has a big sign in the lobby stating that due to increased security at Detroit Metro Airport, passengers should plan to arrive at the airport 4 hours before their flight time.

Good thing we drove here.

[DrSally]

I just heard that and thought the same thing immediately. How am I supposed to access the food/toys for the kids!

[Fairy]

I don't mean to sound so in your face about it, becaue I very much support the security procedures and don't complain too much. But to ban a child from using the bathroom is just plain wrong. There are gentle ways to ensure they're not a threat -- and I acknowledge that child or child-looking are not mutually exclusive to being a threat. But, there has to be a better way than telling a toddler or young child they have to hold it for an hour. Not all kids are created equal and, frankly, not all adult bladders are, either. Adults can grin and bear it, a 5yo who insists they don't have to go cuz they're too engrossed in their activity to admit they really do have to go? They're not gonna just say, "Ok, I'll go now, Mommy, I understand I won't be able to go later." Does not work that way.

Ugh, we'll get thru this. Let's just see how it goes, I guess. Barf bag is funny ... but also actually possibly useful ... tucking that nugget away ...

[DrSally]

.. But if they think I'm going to let my child pee in his pants or wear a diaper at age 5, they can kiss my ass as they bend over to clean the floor from having been temporarily used as a potty.

:ROTFLMAO: I hadn't even thought of the bathroom problem. Yes, that would be quite a situation. I know it was be VERY upsetting for my DS to have to go in his pants.

ETA: When it comes to going ahead of time, that's all fine and good. BUT, at least with DS, with #2, it comes when it comes and it's not on command or all that predictable to either of us. So, even if he's peed ahead of time, he may need to go to a toilet anyway for #2

[JBaxter]

They will all have to go just after you make them put away their DS/leapster/video player/laptop. With not food or entertainment they only thing left to do is go to the bathroom.

[geochick]

I think if I take my 3 and 5 year olds to the bathroom right before the 1 hour cut-off, they'll be fine. What I worry about is my 81 year old step father who is on Lasix medications for his congestive heart failure. It pulls excess fluids out of his body (b/c his heart can't keep up), and he has to pee every 30 minutes. I guess he's supposed to wear an adult undergarment too.???

Sucks for people with bladder issues (cancer, kids, adults with issues). I would imagine the new rules will keep many from traveling. We just got back from a long trip. I'm SO glad we don't have any family travel planned in the next few months.

[goldenpig]

Never mind the kids, what about us pregnant chicks with a 2 teaspoon capacity bladder with the baby sitting right on top of it? If I don't go every half hour or so I can't stand it. And don't make me sneeze or cough....

[jenandahalf]

The key/wallet/formula thing only lasted a few weeks, I think this will pass fairly quickly. It's not sustainable long term, they just need a chance to come up with a practical rule, probably something like no blankets etc, maybe no bathroom in last 30 minutes or similar. The rule until now was around 20 minutes anyway. And stepped up screening at international departure points, but in Europe at least we are used to 2-3 hours of screening for US bound flights. Actually that was what amazed me about this because last time we left Amsterdam Schiphol on a US bound flight we had to go through so much security, including questioning by US marshals. Our carry-on was searched and xrayed several times too. I just don't know how this even happened.

[TwinFoxes]

We're in the Detroit area visiting family and our hotel has a big sign in the lobby stating that due to increased security at Detroit Metro Airport, passengers should plan to arrive at the airport 4 hours before their flight time.

Good thing we drove here.

We got to Metro about 2 hours 15 mins early. We then had the "pleasure" of entertaining two 18 month olds for an hour and 45 minutes. Check in was easy peasy. We flew out of the smaller newer terminal. Just my IRL experience (although I'm sure Sunday will be worse because that's the really big travel day).

[o_mom]

So what do you all do on flights with turbulance? I have been on 2-3 hr flights where the seatbelt sign was never even turned off. Or, it suddenly comes on and stays on for an hour or more. This at least has the bonus of knowing ahead of time. Does it suck? Yep. But that's why we don't fly with the kids unless absolutely necessary.

[JBaxter]

Watching the news this morning they said the new "rules" were only on flights from europe to the US.

They also reported some airlines were no longer giving out blankets & pillows and would lock the bathrooms during the last hour.

Whats AMAZING is the terrorist who tried to blow up the plane had radical ties AND his FATHER had turned him because he was concerned he would do something. Yet he was not on the no fly list

[wellyes]

So what do you all do on flights with turbulance? I have been on 2-3 hr flights where the seatbelt sign was never even turned off. Or, it suddenly comes on and stays on for an hour or more. This at least has the bonus of knowing ahead of time. Does it suck? Yep. But that's why we don't fly with the kids unless absolutely necessary.

The thing that keeps my flying instead of driving is the safety statistics, despite the fact that it's a PITA. But DD is still in diapers which does make it easier.


How am I supposed to access the food/toys for the kids!

How about putting them into that little pocket in the seat in front of you? You can cram a LOT into that space, especially if you remove those germy flight magazines.

[DrSally]

We had to make several flights when we were living out east for DH's job and all our family was in the midwest. It just isn't feasible to drive 20 hours with a toddler in the winter, and we wanted DS to see his grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. for Xmas and once in the summer. Also, my father was dying of pancreatic cancer, and we wanted DS to spend time with him. I wish we could've flown less with DS, but it just wasn't possible.

ETA: Now that we're close to family, we have not flown since we moved! We really want to avoid flying with the kids, but I know that for others in different situations, it just isn't possible.

[3blackcats]

DH is doing DTW to IAD and back today. I'll let you know how his experience went.

He has my in-laws with him who are the "oh wait I have to take my coat and shoes" type with him. That'll be a good measure :tongue5:

[egoldber]

So what do you all do on flights with turbulance? I have been on 2-3 hr flights where the seatbelt sign was never even turned off. Or, it suddenly comes on and stays on for an hour or more.

:yeahthat: I've been on many flights where we were not allowed to get up for the entire flight. It does suck and I am seriously in no hurry to potty train Amy in no small part due to air travel!

I always take Sarah (and myself :tongue5:) to the bathroom immediately before boarding just in case. And I severely limit fluids before the flight and in flight. It's just easier that way. And as soon as the fasten seatbelt sign goes off, we go and just before the plan starts to descend, we go. Typically the pilot will make an announcement, but if not we just guesstimate the time. DH is a frequent enough traveler that he can tell from the engine noise when the plane is getting ready to start descending. :ROTFLMAO:

ETA: I remember one horrible flight when I was alonewith Sarah right after she had potty trained. I put her in a pull-up for the flight (just in case) but as soon as the seatbelt sign went on for descent she started screaming that she needed to poop. Ugh. That was fun. Not.

[bubbaray]

Not sure how this affects US domestic flights, but flights INTO the US from Canada (and presumably Europe) are now allowing NO carryons whatsoever, with the following exceptions:

diaper bag
SMALL ladies purse
laptop (not in a bag)


The airlines aren't telling people until they GET to the airport, which is causing chaos.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Watching the news this morning they said the new "rules" were only on flights from europe to the US.

They also reported some airlines were no longer giving out blankets & pillows and would lock the bathrooms during the last hour.

Whats AMAZING is the terrorist who tried to blow up the plane had radical ties AND his FATHER had turned him because he was concerned he would do something. Yet he was not on the no fly list

I swear I heard that he was on the no-fly list but got through somehow. The whole family was in the car when I was listening to the NPR headlines around 11am today so maybe I misheard.

Beth

[HIU8]

Oye. DH and I are taking a very early morning flight for a wedding. We are basically packing everything and taking nothing but my purse on the plane (we are going from DC to FL). I don't know what it will be like on a sunday morning, but the flight is at 7:40. I can't imagine having to get there at 5:40 am. That means we will be getting up at 3:30 am. DH had heard that the regs were for domestic flights as well---don't know if it is true since I hadn't heard it myself.

[JBaxter]

I swear I heard that he was on the no-fly list but got through somehow. The whole family was in the car when I was listening to the NPR headlines around 11am today so maybe I misheard.

Beth

He was on a terrorist WATCH list but they didnt associate him with groups that flew... BRILLIANT

[DrSally]

Oye. DH and I are taking a very early morning flight for a wedding. We are basically packing everything and taking nothing but my purse on the plane (we are going from DC to FL). I don't know what it will be like on a sunday morning, but the flight is at 7:40. I can't imagine having to get there at 5:40 am. That means we will be getting up at 3:30 am. DH had heard that the regs were for domestic flights as well---don't know if it is true since I hadn't heard it myself.

One thing I worry about packing everything in your checked baggage is a recent article that baggage theft is way up. Employees are rifiling through baggage, stealing jewlery and electronics, and then switching baggage tags so the bag will get lost and the theft can't be traced. And, airlines are really stingy about reimbursement.

[MontrealMum]

Here is what I can add so far...

My mom left Mtl. for MI (via Chicago) yesterday. Due to weather issues she had to stay overnight in Chicago (paid for by airline). She flew Air Canada. Leaving Mtl. it took her 5 hours to make it from the ticketing agent/check-in...not that line, but from the desk itself...through customs and security, and she just barely made it to her gate. Passengers were not allowed to get up or access their carry-ons for the last hour of the flight. Due to her high stress and tiredness, I did not get to hear how Chicago to MI went.

My dad leaves Mtl. for home (via DTW, on NW/Delta) on Wed. He's not in a good mood about it, but is trying to prepare by practically emptying his carryone. He has had recent urinary tract surgery so he's quite nervous about the bathroom thing as "holding it" could cause the surgery to reverse itself.

ETA: My mom was allowed both her carryon and her purse. I will warn my dad about this though if they're not telling people until they get there. I wonder how men are supposed to carry their medications? Should I loan him a diaper bag or one of my small purses? Truly, I'm serious about that. Many people need medication during their trips.

[bubbaray]

ETA: My mom was allowed both her carryon and her purse. I will warn my dad about this though if they're not telling people until they get there. I wonder how men are supposed to carry their medications? Should I loan him a diaper bag or one of my small purses? Truly, I'm serious about that. Many people need medication during their trips.


The change in rules was TODAY, so your mom's experience won't help your dad, KWIM?

I would probably take the medication in a large Ziplock bag. I can't find any reference to male passengers being allowed a purse -- only ladies. AND, the diaper bag allowance is only if travelling with an infant. Like anyone will willingly travel with an infant under these rules!

[DrSally]

Here is what I can add so far...

My mom left Mtl. for MI (via Chicago) yesterday. Due to weather issues she had to stay overnight in Chicago (paid for by airline). She flew Air Canada. Leaving Mtl. it took her 5 hours to make it from the ticketing agent/check-in...not that line, but from the desk itself...through customs and security, and she just barely made it to her gate. Passengers were not allowed to get up or access their carry-ons for the last hour of the flight. Due to her high stress and tiredness, I did not get to hear how Chicago to MI went.

My dad leaves Mtl. for home (via DTW, on NW/Delta) on Wed. He's not in a good mood about it, but is trying to prepare by practically emptying his carryone. He has had recent urinary tract surgery so he's quite nervous about the bathroom thing as "holding it" could cause the surgery to reverse itself.

ETA: My mom was allowed both her carryon and her purse. I will warn my dad about this though if they're not telling people until they get there. I wonder how men are supposed to carry their medications? Should I loan him a diaper bag or one of my small purses? Truly, I'm serious about that. Many people need medication during their trips.

I feel for your dad. I would be nervous too. I might alert the flight crew to see if your dad could be the first let off the plane due to a medical condition. That way, he can go right to the restroom as soon as he gets off. Sometimes it can take for-ever to deplane. I might loan him a small diaper bag/packpack. That is a really good point about the meds. What if you pack them in checked luggage and your bag gets lost?

[bubbaray]

Here's the official Canadian gov't rule (agency is counterpart to US TSA):

http://www.catsa.gc.ca/Page.aspx?ID=77&pname=measures_mesures&lang=en

U.S.A. bound passengers are permitted zero carry-on bags effective immediately and lasting for several days. Passengers travelling within Canada are still permitted two carry-on bags (although to make the screening process most efficient, no carry-on is preferred).
These rules will be strictly enforced during this period. There will be no flexibility.

Carry-on bag means items to which a passenger has access to during a flight, but does NOT include personal items such as small purses, cameras, coats, items for care of infants, laptop computers, diplomatic or consular bags, crutches, canes, walkers, containers carrying life sustaining items, medication or medical devices, musical instruments, or any special needs items.

[MamaMolly]

I just lifted this from Yahoo news:

The TSA also relaxed rules that had prohibited passengers from leaving their seats, opening carry-on bags and keeping blankets *******or babies****** on their laps during the last hour of international flights entering the U.S., according to an official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the TSA had not publicly disclosed the change. (asterisks mine, of course)

Get that part about not being allowed to keep babies on your lap the last hour? That one had me rolling. Up until DD was 2 she always flew as a lap baby. I can't imagine what childless moron thought up that rule. What were people supposed to do? Stow babies under their seats? In the overhead bins? Levitate them? Seriously, even though the TSA lifted that one it is a black eye for them that they E.V.E.R. had it as a rule for even a nanosecond.

[mikeys_mom]

One thing I worry about packing everything in your checked baggage is a recent article that baggage theft is way up. Employees are rifiling through baggage, stealing jewlery and electronics, and then switching baggage tags so the bag will get lost and the theft can't be traced. And, airlines are really stingy about reimbursement.

:yeahthat:
BIL had his Nuvi GPS stolen from his luggage a few weeks ago and is having a really hard time getting reimbursed by the airline. Just the GPS was stolen - they left the case.

I have no idea what they think they are accomplishing by imposing these new rules. The explosive device was sewn into the man's underwear. How would not having carry-on luggage have made any difference in this case.

It amazes me that in the years since 9/11 there is still such a reactionary approach to terrorism rather than pro-active profiling being done. I have flown to Israel, a country constantly under terrorist threat, numerous times and they have such a different approach to security. I do not believe that they have had any terrorist incidents on any flights in recent years.

One time when were flying home from Israel, we had a 1am flight and DS was asleep in the stroller at the time we were going through security. I asked if we had to fold the stroller and the security agent was surprised that I would even ask. They gently checked the stroller basket and sent us on our way without disturbing DS. We did not fit their profile for being a security threat so they did not need to wake a sleeping baby as part of "standard procedures".

I am just glad that I do not have any plans to travel by plane in the near future. Sounds like it could be a disaster with young kids.

JMHO.

[mom2binsd]

So...my dad is traveling home to Ottawa from IL tomorrow morning on American Airlines...he has an enlarged prostate and goes to the bathroom all the time....I've already talked to him about going before boarding etc..my other worry, he has memory/cognitive deficits, they are subtle but he had a brain aneuryism 30 years ago and he can get very distracted and jokes all the time. We've discussed the serious aspect of the latest incidents and I pray he is able to get through without causing a problem.

I can't see anything on the TSA that will limit him bringing his carryon (a small duffle bag), it has his anti seizure meds so he needs to keep it with him. His flight originates in our tiny airport, his is the first flight out and he changes in Chicago....just hope all goes well.

Anybody see any info that will forbid him bringing a carryon????

[bubbaray]

The TSA site seems to indicate that for passengers departing the US, there are no changes.

ETA: http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/dec25_guidance.shtm At this time, security checkpoint requirements for passengers departing U.S. airports remain the same. Passengers do not need to do anything differently, but they may notice additional security measures at the airport.

Because, ya know, a terrorist couldn't hijack a plane once it takes off from US soil or anything.

These rules are ludicrous. If someone truly wants to do harm, they will find a way to do so regardless of rules that only serve to constrain the HONEST traveller.

[MontrealMum]

Thanks guys for the info. I'll talk more about it with my dad tomorrow and we'll try to figure out where to put his meds, and about talking to the flight crew about his medical issues. Do you think they're ok in a baggie in his coat pocket then? I just don't see him being able to not lose them between the car and the airplane if he's got to carry them all not in a carry-on. Ugh! I guess this will all relax again soon, but if they don't before my parents visit again I know they are both discussing taking the train, or (yikes!) driving.

And I'm with Molly on the lap baby thing - WTF? I'd love to hear some firsthand stories on how that's going down.

[mom2binsd]

Molly maybe we can carpool my dad with your parents for their next trip???? We can pick them up in MI on the way to Ottawa, I'm always up for a visit to MTL!

[crl]

Thanks all! I'd appreciate people continuing to post experiences, including how long to get through security. We're visiting family and have no choice but to fly home later this week with 6.5 year old DS.

Catherine

[MontrealMum]

Molly maybe we can carpool my dad with your parents for their next trip???? We can pick them up in MI on the way to Ottawa, I'm always up for a visit to MTL!
Hey, sounds good to me :thumbsup: This is all so crazy!

[lfp2n]

I flew in from London to Washington today. It took longer to check in and general security was slow but then we were about 1.5 hours delayed as everyone on transatlantic planes has to be patted down at the gate as you pass through and all their hand luggage gone through individually. Even though they started early it took nearly 3 hours to board the plane. It was one 6kg piece of hand luggage, that they weighed and they were trying to take away bulky items and bags with wheels. And DH had to drink from all our water bottles we had filled on the other side of security.
Surprisingly though they didn't impose the hour before stay in your seats rule or the no blanket rule, they had taken away that feature where you can follow the journey on a map.
We got to the airport early but all in all it wasn't as bad as I thought.

[AnnieW625]

As a seasoned traveler whose traveled between 3 and 5 times per year since I was a baby (and survived a bomb threat in the early 80s) I have been very tolerant and obedient of TSA rules. The only TSA rule that ever really made me mad was the formula thing. The first time I travelled with my daughter I took a bottle of formula with me because (no lectures please) it was easier to bottle feed in the airport and plane than it was to breast feed. The fresh formula (less than 45 minutes old--we live 3 miles from the airport) didn't make it past security. I was soo pissed off. Granted I had some extra and I ended up getting some hot water from a fountain or the coffee shop (I can't remember), but I was soo happy when they changed that rule.

I'll be tolerant of the new rules that might be put in place, but sometimes like the liquid thing I think they have gone a little too far.

[jenandahalf]

That baby in the lap thing cracks me up because in Europe children under two are ONLY permitted to travel in a parents lap, car seats are not allowed on board and even if you buy them a seat they aren't allowed in it for takeoff and landing. And these rules are mainly for flights departing Europe!

[ilfaith]

Well after the "shoe bomber" several years ago they began forcing passengers to remove their shoes when going through security. The latest terror suspect hid the explosives in his underpants...so I suppose we ought to be thankful we don't have to remove our panties at the airport.

[bluestarfish18]

Just flew back from Cancun yesterday and had to go through the whole no-breathing/moving-during-th-last-hour-of-flight thing. Yucks, when you have 2 kids to entertain. It sucked because they only gave us a minute warning. DH and I had to wake up 2 sleeping kids, change their diapers, use the restroom ourselves, make a bottle, and get whatever food/toys they needed within 5 minutes. It was horrible!!

I understand that constantly changing the rules of safe flying helps to prevent terrorism planning, but it's getting rediculous. It's such an annoyance to fly now.

[HIU8]

This is how we are handling things...DH and I are wearing any jewelry we are taking. Cell phones etc... will go in my purse. If they want to steal my makeup or hairdryer or DS's nose clippers--more power to them. We normally don't travel with a ton of electronics and are not taking the laptop this time.

[Fairy]

Just flew back from Cancun yesterday and had to go through the whole no-breathing/moving-during-th-last-hour-of-flight thing. Yucks, when you have 2 kids to entertain. It sucked because they only gave us a minute warning. DH and I had to wake up 2 sleeping kids, change their diapers, use the restroom ourselves, make a bottle, and get whatever food/toys they needed within 5 minutes. It was horrible!!

I understand that constantly changing the rules of safe flying helps to prevent terrorism planning, but it's getting rediculous. It's such an annoyance to fly now.

This is really not what I wanted to hear.

Thank you for sharing and letting us know.

[Fairy]

One thing I worry about packing everything in your checked baggage is a recent article that baggage theft is way up. Employees are rifiling through baggage, stealing jewlery and electronics, and then switching baggage tags so the bag will get lost and the theft can't be traced. And, airlines are really stingy about reimbursement.

I used to pack my dirty underwear and socks burried at the bottom, but now, I wonder if I should put it right on top ...

[bubbaray]

Just flew back from Cancun yesterday and had to go through the whole no-breathing/moving-during-th-last-hour-of-flight thing. Yucks, when you have 2 kids to entertain. It sucked because they only gave us a minute warning. DH and I had to wake up 2 sleeping kids, change their diapers, use the restroom ourselves, make a bottle, and get whatever food/toys they needed within 5 minutes. It was horrible!!

.


Wow, that sucks.

So, were you not allowed to have a child on your lap? How did it work exactly? Were you allowed to use a DVD player?

[bluestarfish18]

Wow, that sucks.

So, were you not allowed to have a child on your lap? How did it work exactly? Were you allowed to use a DVD player?

Sorry, should have edited that better. We had only a 5 minute warning. It would have been better for them to tell us "ok, in 20 minutes, you are required to stay seated for the remainder of the flight." That would have given everyone adequate time to use the restroom and do whatever they needed to do. We were fortunate to be on such an early and empty flight that allowed us to do just about everything.

But, no DVD players allowed during that last hour. No emergency pee breaks, no getting up to get formula. Even the flight attendants were required to be buckled up.

Both our kids were lap kids, but they were allowed to sit on our lap (Jack in his own empty seat).

Also, we were patted down (really didn't appreciate that), and our carry on bags were fully checked. They were completely emptied and repacked again. Totally sucked.

[MamaMolly]

It amazes me that in the years since 9/11 there is still such a reactionary approach to terrorism rather than pro-active profiling being done. I have flown to Israel, a country constantly under terrorist threat, numerous times and they have such a different approach to security. I do not believe that they have had any terrorist incidents on any flights in recent years.

One time when were flying home from Israel, we had a 1am flight and DS was asleep in the stroller at the time we were going through security. I asked if we had to fold the stroller and the security agent was surprised that I would even ask. They gently checked the stroller basket and sent us on our way without disturbing DS. We did not fit their profile for being a security threat so they did not need to wake a sleeping baby as part of "standard procedures".

Just to touch on profiling: Profiling is often considered racist and is a hot topic in law enforcement communities in the US. The Israelis don't particularly give a crap if they are considered racists, I guess they are more pragmatic than Americans are. Personally I think profiling is a great idea, but then I'm not a dark skinned male ;).

[DrSally]

this is how we are handling things...dh and i are wearing any jewelry we are taking. Cell phones etc... Will go in my purse. If they want to steal my makeup or hairdryer or ds's nose clippers--more power to them.

:rotflmao:

[MMEand1]

Before long, we will all be flying n@ked and not allowed to have any carry-on luggage with us! What a mess...

[StantonHyde]

We flew from Salt Lake to Albuquerque with no problems at all. But then again, we are not talking a route likely to be frequented by international terrorists. I expect the same on the return to home flight tomorrow.

[m448]

Before long, we will all be flying n@ked and not allowed to have any carry-on luggage with us! What a mess...


Guess that's one way to solve the bathroom issue . . .

[tylersmama]

I just got home, flying from Ft Wayne to Denver via Cincinnati. I can report absolutely nothing unusual and no new security restrictions on either flight, or in any of the three airports. Total time to get through security? 2 minutes. And that was WITH waiting for the grandmother in front of me to putter around with her shoes and carryon. :p

[mommy111]

Just to touch on profiling: Profiling is often considered racist and is a hot topic in law enforcement communities in the US. The Israelis don't particularly give a crap if they are considered racists, I guess they are more pragmatic than Americans are. Personally I think profiling is a great idea, but then I'm not a dark skinned male ;).
.....and neither was the shoe bomber.....I don't think profiling is a great idea or a great security measure because, lets face it, there have been a lot of terrorists who do not fit the middle eastern male profile and al qaeda/whatever other terrorist agencies there are are not dumb and will and have recruited people who do not fit typical middle eastern profiles to do the dirty work for them. I would rather that security does not overlook anyone when they are screening. It makes me feel safer.
I flew back from China yesterday and the security was intense, but manageable. Basically, they screened anything and everything suspicious on the belt in our hand carries (so they checked my purse, opened all zips and the offending item was a travel sized hand toothpaste that met the volume requirements and that I was then allowed to carry on). I realized that if I had paid a little more attention and put that in a ziploc bag, taken it out of my purse and had it screened separately like they made you do after 9/11, I would have saved myself and the security guys some time. One of the airline pilots made a little bit of a fuss ('oh man, don't make me do all this!') It was partly in jest, but really, at that point, being stressed enough at flying a long plane flight so soon after the attempted bombing, I just felt like telling him, get with the program. This is to keep you safe and to keep us safe and you fly a hell of a lot more than I do so you should be grateful that this is happening.
The airline was very, very good about telling us about the last hour and what was expected of us. They announced the new rules at the beginning of the flight (no live news channels, deactivated flight tracker, deactivated airplane satellite phones, deactivated internet access inflight and the 'last hour' rules) The most burdensome was the loss of flight tracking, I use it to track how much time we have left and I didn't have a watch so I bet I drove everyone crazy asking how much time left (like my toddler would have in days past)
They gave us a warning 2 hours prior to flight landing, again an hour and a half prior and then and hour and 15 mins prior. Also, per fed law, no more than 2 people standing in line for bathroom, so the 2 hour heads up was good because everyone used the bathroom without rushing. It was like landing rules except for 1 hour instead of 15 mins. I did wonder how this hour long inaction was meant to keep us safer (pls enlighten me if anyone else knows) but even though I was bummed to lose the flight tracking, I could see how the other rules were meant to make us safer. All in all, it was good to know that something was being done to prevent things like this from happening in the future.

[mommy111]

Oh, and maybe the 'no carry on bags' is specific to Canada because of the shorter flights? We were definitely allowed carry ons, needed them for all of DD's snacks.

[wencit]

I did wonder how this hour long inaction was meant to keep us safer (pls enlighten me if anyone else knows) That is what I'm wondering. If a terrorist wanted to blow up a plane, why couldn't he do that in the middle of the flight vs at the very end? I wonder what is so unique about that last hour of flight....

[MommyAllison]

That is what I'm wondering. If a terrorist wanted to blow up a plane, why couldn't he do that in the middle of the flight vs at the very end? I wonder what is so unique about that last hour of flight....

I'm wondering this too. My BIL, SIL and baby niece fly home in the morning, and I am curious to see what their experience is. My BIL looks somewhat middle Eastern (though he isn't) and almost always gets stopped at security points in airports since 9/11. Pre kids, we flew together a lot and we always teased him that standing behind him in line meant we'd never be searched, since they were busy searching him.

[graciebellesmomma]

we flew to maui on saturday. from sacramento, to portland to maui.
i had missed the news and had no idea, until we arrived in maui,
that the incident occurred. everyone was laid back...casual.
no lines anywhere...totally easy travel. i did notice that they had
some laminated cards. maybe 11x13 inches. they had color photos
of about 50 MOST WANTED TERRORISTS. i kind of hustled my
7 yr old past, as i didnt want to answer questions at that moment.

i forgot about those cards, until heard about the attempted
bombing. then i remembered how strange it seemed to see
them on the poles in the line up for the xray machine....

we do have to fly back to sac, but im not too worried.
kind of scary just how lax it all was, i have to admit.

[egoldber]

I don't think profiling is a great idea or a great security measure because, lets face it, there have been a lot of terrorists who do not fit the middle eastern male profile and al qaeda/whatever other terrorist agencies there are are not dumb and will and have recruited people who do not fit typical middle eastern profiles to do the dirty work for them. I would rather that security does not overlook anyone when they are screening. It makes me feel safer.

:yeahthat: I heard an interview yesterday on NPR with the former head of Homeland Security and he said exactly this. Terrorist groups know exactly who is being profiled (and it is certainly done informally if not formally) and recruit members from non-profiled groups. He even described an attempt by a family with a small child.

As a nation, I don't think we are willing to accept what is required for true airline safety: full body scans, extensive searches of hand luggage, limitations of carry-ons and allowing time before boarding of behavioral interviewing by trained personnel.

[jenandahalf]

Mommy111 have you seen a picture of Richard Reid, the shoe bomber? He certainly is a dark-skinned male, with a beard and moustache and everything.

[TwinFoxes]

I did wonder how this hour long inaction was meant to keep us safer (pls enlighten me if anyone else knows)

I'm guessing (purely a guess) that the idea is even if you're not going to stop someone from blowing up a plane, you can at least stop them from doing it over a city and killing many more people on the ground. Terrorists want to make the biggest impact. While people would be horrified if a plane blew up over the Atlantic or over farmland, imagine if it blew up and then crashed into Detroit. Very few airports are more than an hour outside of their metropolitan area. (Some places like San Diego or National Airport in DC are pretty much right downtown.)

I totally agree with Beth (Egoldber) that in general Americans don't want take steps that would make us truly safer. People get upset if their carry-ons are searched. And when those body scan machines were being introduced, people really freaked out. But apparently those machines could have caught this guy's bomb making equipment.

[jenandahalf]

I just read on CNN that Amsterdam airport will start having all US bound passengers go through the body-scanners from next month. I guess it's no more of an invasion of privacy than a lot of common medical procedures.

[kijip]

Just to touch on profiling: Profiling is often considered racist and is a hot topic in law enforcement communities in the US. The Israelis don't particularly give a crap if they are considered racists, I guess they are more pragmatic than Americans are. Personally I think profiling is a great idea, but then I'm not a dark skinned male ;).

Having flown El Al I don't think it is fair to say that profiling is responsible for their excellent safety record. They are much, much more through in their searches and do things that would make American travelers irate- including slicing open a certain percentage of bags they search from people of all backgrounds. One of my traveling companions was a blonde and blue eyed young girl from Nebraska and her bag was nearly completely destroyed.

Chertoff was on the radio just yesterday that profiling could be used very much to the advantage of the terrorists. Ie: using babies, young children, people of light complexion etc as decoys. I think he is quite right.

[kijip]

I just read on CNN that Amsterdam airport will start having all US bound passengers go through the body-scanners from next month. I guess it's no more of an invasion of privacy than a lot of common medical procedures.

But there is a big difference between my doctor and the HLS airport screener operating the scanning machine. I think that is at the root of people's objections.

[HIU8]

When I had flown El Al it is the absolute safest I have ever felt on an aircraft--and that was 20 years ago. I would fly El Al in a heartbeat now over any and all of the US airlines.

[bubbaray]

Schipol is bringing in full body scanners in THREE weeks. http://www.vancouversun.com/Dutch+airport+full+body+scan+flights/2391605/story.html

Frankly, I think the travelling public in North America has been too complacent over airline security for YEARS. I have no problem with full body scanners. I *do* have a problem with my 2yo child being told to "hold it" for the last hour of flight.

[kijip]

When I had flown El Al it is the absolute safest I have ever felt on an aircraft--and that was 20 years ago. I would fly El Al in a heartbeat now over any and all of the US airlines.

I quite agree, I just think it is more than profiling that makes their safety record so good. They do considerably more than profiling.

[egoldber]

El Al has the most stringent security protocols:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al#El_Al_security

ETA: It is definitely more than profiling.

[jenandahalf]

Racial profiling never would have caught Timothy McVeigh and he certainly did enough damage.

At the end of the day terrorists will find a way. I don't know if there is a way to make the world completely safe.

[vludmilla]

Racial profiling never would have caught Timothy McVeigh and he certainly did enough damage.

At the end of the day terrorists will find a way. I don't know if there is a way to make the world completely safe.

Of course there is no way to make the world completely safe and yes, the terrorists may still find ways to hurt us but I'm not a fatalist. We still need to try to keep ourselves safe in whatever reasonable and ethical way that we can.

[daniele_ut]

That is what I'm wondering. If a terrorist wanted to blow up a plane, why couldn't he do that in the middle of the flight vs at the very end? I wonder what is so unique about that last hour of flight....

Because blowing up a plane on approach to a large city airport will cause much more damage and greater casualties than blowing up a plane over a body of water at 30,000 feet.

[mikeys_mom]

Having flown El Al I don't think it is fair to say that profiling is responsible for their excellent safety record.

Chertoff was on the radio just yesterday that profiling could be used very much to the advantage of the terrorists. Ie: using babies, young children, people of light complexion etc as decoys. I think he is quite right.

I agree.

Sorry, should have been clearer when I wrote profiling. The system in Israel is designed to look for red flags. They have a copy of the passenger list in advance and research each and every passenger. Then, they will further investigate anyone who they feel is suspicious. They are not specifically looking for dark skinned males, but for someone who might somehow have ties to terrorist organizations or someone who is being used as a decoy.

When the North American airlines started asking every passenger if they packed their own bags I found the whole procedure laughable. They had the ticketing agents asking it as sort-of-by-the-way as they were busy issuing boarding passes. When you check in with El Al you have a special security agent who is trained in security who takes you aside and questions you. It is a much more serious procedure.

I think the key to security at El Al and the Israeli airport is that they have people specifically trained in security and know what they are looking for. They do not just have standard procedure to follow. There is a bit more thought put in to their actions.

I don't know for sure but I would imagine that this would cost the North American airlines huge sums of money to properly train security personnel to be pro-active and that this is one of the major factors that is keeping these types of precedures from being impelmented in North America.


Racial profiling never would have caught Timothy McVeigh and he certainly did enough damage.

At the end of the day terrorists will find a way. I don't know if there is a way to make the world completely safe.

I never wrote racial profiling. The key is to look for any red flags. This most recent incident had red flags posted all over it and it amazes me that not a single person thought to perhaps not let him on board the plane.

No, you can't make the world completely safe but you can try to keep a step ahead of terrorists rather than constantly just reacting to what they are doing.

I have no problem with airlines screening my information and my bags. I do have a problem with them making it unbearable to travel and still having huge security breaches.

[hwin708]

But there is a big difference between my doctor and the HLS airport screener operating the scanning machine. I think that is at the root of people's objections.Agreed. End of the day, I wouldn't object to any truly effective security equipment. But there is definitely a discomfort about having my genitalia outlined for the random airport workers. And the US is definitely not alone in this. The article I was reading today said the UK was trying out these machines in some airports, but banned them for 18 and unders due to violating child pornography laws.

That being said, the article also mentioned that the machines are being updated to deal with this problem, and a new software projects more of a stylized image of people's bodies, as opposed to a true outline.

[mikeys_mom]

I just found this article. It is from 2006 but I think it is an interesting analysis of some of the fundamental changes in North American approach to airline security that are in the works and some of the hurdles that we are faced with.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154526025173&pagename=JPArticle/ShowFull

[egoldber]

That was an excellent article!

[MamaMolly]

Having flown El Al I don't think it is fair to say that profiling is responsible for their excellent safety record. They are much, much more through in their searches and do things that would make American travelers irate- including slicing open a certain percentage of bags they search from people of all backgrounds. One of my traveling companions was a blonde and blue eyed young girl from Nebraska and her bag was nearly completely destroyed.

I didn't mean to give the impression that profiling was the only thing responsible for El Al's safety record. I was trying to clarify why 'we' in the US don't do it (officially) because it is often considered racist. The Israelis see it as a practical tool to use as a *part* of their security measures.

[egoldber]

And another key difference is they profile EVERYONE, not just some passengers based on appearance or name. The behavioral interviewing they do is a type of profiling.

[ilfaith]

Fact is that these restrictions on the passengers simply assume that airport security didn't do its job.

[MontrealMum]

Another update:

My dad flew back home today from Mtl, via DTW and says the experience was overall a good one. His main complaint is that they had so few customs agents working so only 5 of 26 stations were open, and that's what took the longest. Some cities in Canada are sending local police to help with security so his pat-down was done by a Mtl. police officer who was very polite. The full body scanner thing mentioned above was featured prominently on the news last night; it's been tested out in BC but no plans to implement it country-wide so far AFAIK. Have not watched/read the news yet today.

He told the flight attendant about his surgery and prostate condition (bathroom usage in the last hour is at pilot's discretion) and she came and got him when he was allowed to go. He reports that women only had small purses and men had laptops only. No carryons for anyone. He managed to get his pills, a book, and a magazine into his coat pockets (large, sporty winter coat) and was happy not to worry about losing anything!

Don't know how long this will last, but the whole thing was quite stressful for both my parents so I am sure it will affect how often, or by what method, they visit in the future :( I also wonder if this will mean more cars on the roads, though it would be nice to see ViaRail/Amtrack add more trains to pick up the slack.

[DrSally]

He told the flight attendant about his surgery and prostate condition (bathroom usage in the last hour is at pilot's discretion) and she came and got him when he was allowed to go. He reports that women only had small purses and men had laptops only

:bighand: Good. Glad that part worked out.

[mommy111]

Mommy111 have you seen a picture of Richard Reid, the shoe bomber? He certainly is a dark-skinned male, with a beard and moustache and everything.
Jamaican dad, English mom. If I were racial profiling, I would have let him go as one of those Jamaican musician rapper types (seen lots of those from when we lived in Africa). But when you talked about dark skinned males, I was assuming middle eastern appearance and not people of non middle eastern african descent. Also, many of the 9/11 operatives, from what I recall, had no beards/mustaches.
My bottom line is, if we start excluding people from a stringent screening process, we are placing ourselves at risk. Security needs to make certain that NOBODY enters an airplane with the ability to blow it up.