Bernie Madoff "fell out of bed"

[wellyes]

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=7187293

He's a crook ---- a nasty one, at that. But the idea that facial fractures, broken ribs and a collapsed lung resulted from "falling out of bed" just gives me chills. What is wrong with our prison system? That's the langauge that used to be OK to use for domestic assault. Being sentenced to prison should NOT mean he, or anyone, is left open to assault. America should be a better place than that.

[ThreeofUs]

I'm not a Madoff fan, certainly, but I really wonder that the system allowed him to be beaten like this.

[BabyMine]

This has always bothered me about the prison system. How come prisoners are allowed to rape and beat other prisoners? I understand they commited a crime but what are they allowed to be abused. How come they aren't being watched? I may not like him but he is still a human being.

[WatchingThemGrow]

Yes, I agree. My (late) grandfather was a warden of the state penitentiary, and I almost don't even want to know how things went there. I pray people (no matter the crime) were treated humanely. I just found a link to where I can take a virtual tour of his facility. My male cousin and half-brothers toured it with my dad and uncle a few years ago, but my female cousin and I were not invited. Sorry to ramble...just spent the day cleaning out closets...

OT, but in that link, there is headline about a car smashing into the hotel right by my house yesterday. Gotta go check that out tomorrow.

[codex57]

Being sentenced to prison should NOT mean he, or anyone, is left open to assault. America should be a better place than that.

Are you guys serious? I can understand not liking a coverup or the language of "falling off a bed", but do you guys seriously think something is terribly "wrong" with America if someone gets assaulted in a prison. Sorry to break it to you, but Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy aren't real. Prisons are filled with people who break laws. And no one, including guards, are perfect 100% of the time. Prison isn't a nice place. It's not supposed to be. Part of the unpleasantness is being around unpleasant people. Who may assault you. Likely will assault you for that matter.

[dcmom2b3]

Yikes, codex! I agree with you that prison isn't supposed to be pleasant, but had assumed that it was the guards, or inmates at the guards behest, consent, encouragement, whatever, who'd done the damage to Madoff. Though I haven't read a single article on this (so forgive me if I'm off point) given his age and his white-collar criminal status, I can't imagine that they had him in a max security facility in general population with hardened criminals.

People "fall out of bed" when someone in authority is abusing them (which includes allowing them to be abused or failing to prevent them from being abused). And it's that abuse of power that is the problem.

That was my take-away message from the PPs. And to answer your question, yes, there is something wrong with humanity (American or not) when any human being fails to recognize the humanity of another. Criminal or not. But since I believe that Santa Claus is the spirit of love and giving, I guess you'd marginalize my opinion, too.

Oh well.

[kijip]

Are you guys serious? I can understand not liking a coverup or the language of "falling off a bed", but do you guys seriously think something is terribly "wrong" with America if someone gets assaulted in a prison. Sorry to break it to you, but Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy aren't real. Prisons are filled with people who break laws. And no one, including guards, are perfect 100% of the time. Prison isn't a nice place. It's not supposed to be. Part of the unpleasantness is being around unpleasant people. Who may assault you. Likely will assault you for that matter.

The measure of a society is in part how we treat the powerless. I am downright ashamed at how we allow incarcerated men and women to be treated, by each other, and by some prison guards. It is an affront to decency and morality and is counter to the public's self interest.

While I am quite aware of the dangers of prisons and am not the least bit surprised with this situation, I am not willing to accept that it is ok or acceptable for human beings to be treated like this. Studying prisons will show, worldwide, that it is not in fact always like that and that there are ways to keep people safe(r) while they are incarcerated. The state of many of our prisons is, in my opinion, a national disgrace. For, oh so many reasons. Anyone who does not think it is wrong for people to be beaten and sexually assaulted while the system does little to remedy the situation and at our considerable financial expense needs to check their moral compass IMO.

And also consider the danger the law abiding public is in when previously non-violent offenders are schooled in violence in prison. Madoff is never getting out (not that that excuses it). The 17 year old kid who breaks into a store or deals a small amount of drugs, is getting out, primed for violence. Awesome system. With regards to Madoff, housing elderly prisoners in with able-bodied young and prime of their physical life adults seems inherently cruel. My father is considered a pretty healthy, robust 67 and I wince more than a little considering someone of his age being co-housed with violent 20, 30, 40, 50 year olds. Sure my dad has never bilked someone for billions or raped or killed or robbed anyone and is not incarcerated. But on a fundamental level, he and Bernie Madoff share the same humanity and deserve safety.

[codex57]

When the idea is to imprison lawbreakers at the cheapest way possible, this is to be expected.

Ideally, we'd have max security prisons with one or more guards assigned to each prisoner. To secure them from society as well as from each other. A full course of educational or vocational classes available, extensive library, along with computer and life skills training so they can integrate smoothly into society once they leave prison.

That's ideal and that's what prisoners "deserve" if you wanna call it. Everyone "deserves" safety. Just like the poor mom who gets killed by the drunk driver.

It'd be nice if everyone could stay safe. It'd be nice if there were no wars, crime, hunger, etc. Unfortunately, that's not even close to reality. Santa Claus represents a nice ideal, but that's why we tell it to children. As they get older, reality sets in. Not every deserving kid gets the present they wish for. Moms and dads, if they're around, have to work to get money to buy stuff. Not everyone can afford to do so.

Same with safety. Can't protect everyone. Makes it even harder to do so when you consider there are bad people, to varying degrees, out there. War isn't nice. However, there are bad people like Hitler out there. Many argued that the US and other Allied leaders were "war mongerers" because they went to war to try and stop Hitler. Should have just reasoned with Hitler. Yeah right. Smokin' crack. Sometimes, and this applies just as much to crime, you have to grab hold of reality and do some not pleasant things (like locking people up) for the greater good.

We don't have unlimited resources. Can only devote so much to prisons. Better to worry about how we're gonna pay for universal health care rather then what happens to Bernie Madoff. Bernie was in low security. However, low security doesn't mean violence free. It just means they're not there for killing someone. Bernie isn't dead so it's not entirely out of line for his level of security. After all, in low security, that just means he's more exposed (or more "free", depending on how you look at it).

[kijip]

When the idea is to imprison lawbreakers at the cheapest way possible, this is to be expected.


The costs that we incur incarcerating people in this country don't even come close to being the cheapest or most efficient way possible. Seriously, we have a highly cost ineffective system and by accounts I am familiar with, violence in prisons has increased in recent decades as costs per prisoner have actually risen when adjusted for inflation and the number of people incarcerated has increased.

Accepting inhumanity is not realism, it's just plain defeatism. No one is talking about WWII noble war concepts or Santa, Codex, except you. As a survivor of a very violent crime, I hardly need, or will even opt to accept, lectures on the fact that the world is a hard place where many people experience violence. We can do better. It's disgusting that we don't.

[dcmom2b3]

When the idea is to imprison lawbreakers at the cheapest way possible, this is to be expected.

Ideally, we'd have max security prisons with one or more guards assigned to each prisoner. To secure them from society as well as from each other. A full course of educational or vocational classes available, extensive library, along with computer and life skills training so they can integrate smoothly into society once they leave prison.

That's ideal and that's what prisoners "deserve" if you wanna call it. Everyone "deserves" safety. Just like the poor mom who gets killed by the drunk driver.

It'd be nice if everyone could stay safe. It'd be nice if there were no wars, crime, hunger, etc. Unfortunately, that's not even close to reality. Santa Claus represents a nice ideal, but that's why we tell it to children. As they get older, reality sets in. Not every deserving kid gets the present they wish for. Moms and dads, if they're around, have to work to get money to buy stuff. Not everyone can afford to do so.

Same with safety. Can't protect everyone. Makes it even harder to do so when you consider there are bad people, to varying degrees, out there. War isn't nice. However, there are bad people like Hitler out there. Many argued that the US and other Allied leaders were "war mongerers" because they went to war to try and stop Hitler. Should have just reasoned with Hitler. Yeah right. Smokin' crack. Sometimes, and this applies just as much to crime, you have to grab hold of reality and do some not pleasant things (like locking people up) for the greater good.

We don't have unlimited resources. Can only devote so much to prisons. Better to worry about how we're gonna pay for universal health care rather then what happens to Bernie Madoff. Bernie was in low security. However, low security doesn't mean violence free. It just means they're not there for killing someone. Bernie isn't dead so it's not entirely out of line for his level of security. After all, in low security, that just means he's more exposed (or more "free", depending on how you look at it).

I guess what troubles me most about the undercurrent of your posts is that you're quick to deny the humanity of others on the grounds that they "deserve to be treated that way."

That's the syllogism that's used to justify discremination, rape, segregation, genocide, you name it. The fact that we don't have the "resources" to make it better doesn't make it right, morally. And, quite frankly, at the minimum, staying aware of the fact that there is a gap between the what is moral and what is realistic is paramount. If everyone adoped your position, we'd be in a poorer place:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

It's apparent that you have strong feelings about, well, something, here. And I won't deny you that right. But you can't get off scott-free for essentially calling others childlike or stupid. At the very least, codex, you owe an apology to the posters upthread who you mocked.

Signed,

Santa

[gatorsmom]

I didn't read the article, just some of the other posts here. But I think treating ANY living being that way is DESPICABLE. How is physically abusing a defenseless person going to undo what he's done? And when the courts ruled on his punishment, I know they said jail time but did they say anything about physical abuse? I don't remember reading about that......

[wellyes]

I can understand not liking a coverup or the language of "falling off a bed", but do you guys seriously think something is terribly "wrong" with America if someone gets assaulted in a prison.Assault is wrong, but it does happen. To good people and bad people. But prisoners are at the mercy of the state. I hold the state to a high standard, but protecting its own wards from attack or *at least* pursuing justice against attackers ........ that's basic stuff.

On the other hand, codex57, I do like getting another perspective. Your responses always remind me of my DH's :) so I'm glad you chimed in. There's not a lot of room for discussion if we all agree.

[viba424]

Im my opinion, I dont think its always the establishment's fault. Its not like they permit a culture of abuse to happen intentionally. Im sure they didnt say he fell off the bed - Madoff probably said it. Those people are dangerous and very hard to control. I have two friends that work in the federal prison system in Colorado and one on death row in Texas and its impossible to stop the violence. Its just the price you pay for letting them interact with each other. If I had it my way, everyone would be in isolation and be prohibited from TV, internet, weightlifting and yard time, everything. When Jeffery Dahmer was murdered in prison by having his head bashed in, I dont remember people getting mad at the prison system or government saying they allowed it. If you think about it, Im sure the guards quite like Madoff. Look at who else they have to deal with. If they do actually allow this stuff to happen, I bet there are probably 500 other inmates they would rather see beat up besides him.

[wellyes]

If I had it my way, everyone would be in isolation and be prohibited from TV, internet, weightlifting and yard time, everything.Thought I'd share this really interesting piece by Atul Gawande on solitary confinement (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande). He's quickly becoming one of my favorite authors - a Malcolm Gladwell-type essayist who is also a surgeon.

[viba424]

Good article, thanks for the link. Yes, for sure, I am no authority on healthy methods of imprisonment. Im sure there are really no good answers for incarceration.