intentional aggression?

[lmh2402]

as first time parents, every age and its milestones are new to us. and we are now much more observant of the stages that our friends with older children are traversing.

that said, we are very friendly with a couple that has two young boys. A is 2.5 yrs and C is going on 6 months.

we only see them 4-5 times a year, though we chat pretty regularly. last time we got together, we went to their house. A was just over 2 and C was a month old. all seemed normal and hectic, as to be expected. A has always been a cute, hyper, but pleasant, little boy

but on new years day they came to visit and when they left, my husband and i locked the door behind them and yelled several "O.M.G"s

A spent 5 hours attempting to destroy all living things smaller than him. this included his little brother, our young son, and our 9 pound dog.

he kicked, punched and threw every single time he could get his hands on directly at our dog's head. he pulled the legs and the tail. his parents would tell him, "no," or "don't do it," or "stop."

and he would look at them...and intentionally do it again.

my husband asked him if he wanted to hurt the dog. and he didn't answer, just tried to step on him.

i asked him to help me teach the dog which toys were only for kids, by not throwing the toys at the dog. he looked at me and threw a little wooden tambourine at him.

he was doing this thing that he called "dancing," but involved trying to step on my son's hands, feet, legs, etc.

his dad said, "oh watch out, he's in a stage where he tries to step on babies."

is this stage common?

he said he wanted to give his little brother a kiss - my husband was holding C at the time. he climbed up on the couch to "kiss" him, but hauled off and slapped the kid in the face so hard, that C's head rocked backward, his paci went flying out of his mouth and he screamed that silent scream of extreme upset-ness for at least a minute...took the mom about 10 min to finally get C to stop crying

i was stunned, horrified, angry and afraid for my baby and my dog...not to mention C.

A's parents were constantly telling him no, etc, etc.

and they tried several times to put him in time out. but he would walk right out behind them. laughing.

is this to be expected? my husband and i haven't been able to stop talking about it. do we have to prepare for/expect this type of behavior? A's parents said this is his new stage of "testing limits of bad behavior."

are there other methods they should have tried for reprimanding or managing him? my husband and i couldn't think of what else they could have done differently...other than deciding to get up and leave sooner. but i don't think A would have viewed that as "punishment." though, we would have appreciated it!

i realize he was in an unfamiliar home and he was excited. and he was tired b/c he refused to nap (though, they got to our apt at 11am and he had slept in the car, so he wasn't tired right away...and his unpleasant behavior was evident from the very beginning)

anyway, i would just like to know if intentional aggression (with a smile!) is a common stage that kids go through. and what some methods might be for getting though that stage with as little damage as possible

[jenmcadams]

It may be a stage some kids go through, but mine didn't and I would be bothered by it (and I wasn't overly sensitive about my kids getting knocked over, hit, etc. occasionally by older kids when they were toddlers...some of that is normal). I would be pretty disturbed that the parents didn't handle it better. Time-outs can be tough at that age, but if that's the discipline method they've chosen, they need to stick with it...letting him talk back, be openly defiant and walk out of time-outs would bother me and is not good for the child.

We used to have a friend who had a son who was a chronic biter, but she always dealt with the situation quickly, removed him from the room and didn't allow it to occur repeatedly. Even though I had to be extra cautious for my DD, I was ok with hanging out with them b/c I knew she was working on addressing the behavior. Honestly, I'd have a hard time hanging out with those friends b/c it doesn't sound like they were addressing the behavior.

[wellyes]

He sounds like a little boy who only gets negative attention, so he seeks it out. Poor kid.

The parents flat-out screwed up. Every kid has a very very very day now and then, but letting him get away with that stuff is terrible for all involved. They should have at least LEFT as a punishment to him instead of leaving your family / home as his playground of destruction & terrorism.

There's not much you can do about someone else's parenting except not socialize with them or minimize the amount of time your child is exposed to their child.

[brittone2]

At 2, he's testing boundaries/limits (they obviously aren't being enforced). His parents should try "get off their butt parenting" and get up and intervene each and every time. They could ask if you mind separating the dog from the child (for everyone's safety and to remove the temptation). THey could demonstrate (if the dog wasn't completely freaked out at this point) a "gentle touch" and modeling appropriate ways to interact w/ the animal.

I'm not big on time out personally. However, there are *many* ways to enforce boundaries and limits without punishment per se. If someone's safety (or an animal's safety) is being jeopardized, those limits need to be enforced...the parent needs to "shadow" the child closely and be willing to get off their butt to intervene. If the child is overtired, etc. then it may be time to go home. (eta: if I couldn't keep the dog/other kids safe even w/ shadowing/get off my butt parenting, I would physically hold the child in my lap if necessary. But we don't do "time outs" in the traditional sense. However, there is no way I'd allow my child to (repeatedly) hurt other animals/children.

Some kids that have issues w/ personal space of others may also have some sort of sensory processing disorder. Just something to keep in mind...sometimes there are not so obvious (diagnosed or not yet diagnosed) special needs. Even then, the parent needs to intervene obviously, but just explaining one possible cause. Some kids are less verbal and use physical aggression to retaliate more than other kids.

2 year olds are still not really able to have reliable empathy for others, so it can be hard for them to understand they are inflicting pain, etc. on others depending on maturity. That doesn't make it okay to behave in such a way, but it is somewhat age-appropriate to not always understand.

My kids don't hurt animals. DS was never a hitter/biter. DD did some hitting/biting, mostly from age 12 months to 18 months (less verbal during that time). She still bit DS occasionally up to age 2-2.5 I'd say. When DS got in her face or took a toy, the fastest/easiest way to retaliate was to bite. I wouldn't say she was a "biter" per say as it wasn't a regular thing, but DS pretty much never bit. DD did use biting when highly frustrated.

2.5 is a *very* challenging age for many kids. Yes, he's testing limits and some of what you saw may be typical or beyond typical. I'm sure much of it is likely due to the parents not enforcing boundaries, however, even w/ enforcing, some 2.5 year olds are particularly challenging. A kid that is known to be prone to be "stepping on babies" needs a parent right by their side in order to set the child up for success in the first place.

The smiling can be a response to feeling embarrassed, etc. for being singled out for example. It isn't always a malicious or "defiant" response, although it can appear that way to adults.

I'm not saying what the kid did was right at all, however, quite a bit of what you describe would not be uncommon in some 2.5 year olds, especially where boundaries are not regularly enforced, and if overtired, unaccustomed to how to properly treat an animal (minimal exposure to animals/pets), etc. Punishment doesn't solve overtired. Even kids that aren't typically "behavior problems" can have days where they are overtired and uncooperative nad or aggressive. Perhaps the parents enforce more at home than they did in your presence (or not) and didn't want to "make a scene" (not saying that is okay at all, but just giving a different perspective).

A parent can enforce boundaries without "punishing". And IMO, if things were going that poorly, leaving would be a better choice than "punishing" even if you think he would have been happy to leave. It is the parents' responsibility to set him up for success...if he's overtired, uncooperative and aggressive...time to go home IMO. "Punishment" is unlikely to reset his behavior at that point.

[ha98ed14]

I don't think you have to tolerate the kind of behavior A exhibited. People have different levels of what they will tolerate from their kids. And people have different parenting styles. At our house, the first displays after a "don't do that" earn DD a time out in her room in her crib with the door closed. I have put her in there three times in a row if I have to because my child is not doing to act that that. I won't beat it out of her, because that is just plan wrong, IMO. But she is going to spend a lot of time in her room in her bed by herself if she cannot behave in ways that show respect and consideration to her family members and pets and any guests we have.

ETA: The most important thing is to remember not to let your child run you. You are the parent. You make the rules. Be reasonable about what you expect (age appropriate), but violence directed at siblings, parents and pets is a serious line to cross. His parents chose not to hold the line. You can choose differently.

[lmh2402]

thanks, ladies


There's not much you can do about someone else's parenting except not socialize with them or minimize the amount of time your child is exposed to their child.

i actually wasn't/am not concerned about parenting their kid. i was more horrified by the thought that this was coming down the pike for us... that we would have to anticipate our son starting to act this way at some point

i asked the mom how she thought A was dealing with the arrival of C and she said, "oh, not too bad. it's going pretty ok right now. but i think once C starts being able to move/crawl and can try to touch/take A's toys, then we might have a problem."

THEN they might have a problem?!

i was seriously waiting for this kid's head to start spinning around and his body to start levitating.

if DS starts acting this way when he's older...i don't know what we would do?! i would never let him wreak havoc on someone else's home or children (or pets). so would we just have to be housebound until he outgrew it?

that sounds pretty miserable too...

[sste]

My almost 2.5 year old will (lightly) hit/push on occasion when he is guarding a resource - -usually a beloved toy. We intervene, make him repeat the rule (never, never, never hit), ask him why we never hit (it hurts people and makes them sad), and have him say he is sorry. If he does it repeatedly he is in time-out.

He would NEVER hurt an animal. We have been borderline insane about that from his babyhood for a variety of reasons, including DS's own safety.

What makes the story you describe different imo from the typical two year old is the degree, frequency, and nature (hitting seemingly to inflict pain versus guarding something or losing all control of one's temper on occasion).

[brittone2]

You enforce boundaries/limits. No hurting others is one of those rules that obviously is something worth enforcing ;)

You model appropriate behavior (demonstrate how to interact with babies and animals appropriately). You show them what *to* do rather than always focusing on what not to do.

You get off your butt as needed (even though it is tiring ;) ) and "help" as needed. If your child is prone to biting/hitting, etc. then at playgroups, etc. you may need to be *right there* next to your child helping them work through interactions and modeling appropriate behavior (how to trade for a toy vs. stealing it from someone else, or asking an adult for help vs. biting someone who took the toy). Some kids do best learning how to interact w/ other kids one on one vs. an overstimulating playgroup environment.

You set your child up for success. You get to know your child. If they are displaying very atypical behavior, you look first at the fundamentals. Are they overtired? Hungry/low blood sugar? Thirsty? Bored? Overstimulated? You address those underlying things first if needed because otherwise you aren't going to get anywhere. I know with my kids, atypical behavior is usually a sign that one of the above is an issue, or they are getting sick, etc. Sometimes you have to politely decline a play date or other social engagement because they just aren't capable of success when overtired, etc. That's part of being a parent IMO. It doesn't have to be viewed as a punishment, but if you know success is unlikely, then sometimes it is a day to address the fundamentals first. That doesn't mean you'll always be housebound, but yes, there are days when staying home is the best option.

eta: even w/ a parent that enforces boundaries and limits, there will be challenging days with a 2.5 year old's behavior :)

[lmh2402]

thanks, ladies

brittone, thank you so much for the great advice and tips! modeling what "to do", rather than always focusing on what "not to do" makes tons of sense.

i was thinking/wondering if maybe he was just having an off day

though his dad flat out told us that he's been this way for the last few months. he said, "he's kind of a horror."

it was all around disturbing. maybe the whole family was just having an off day.

but the fact that he literally laughed each and every time he made the dog yelp in pain, or my son or his brother cry, was frightening.

and it had nothing to do with guarding b/c neither of the two younger kids were anywhere near A's stuff ever. and the dog made every effort to stay away from the kid and his stuff, after he realized that he was a constant target.

the dad and mom both tried showing him how to pet the dog gently. and he would sit with them and let them stroke his hand over harry's little body. and as soon as they would let go, he would punch the dog and laugh.

we did end up putting the dog in our bedroom for his own safety. but A spent the last 20 min of the visit literally pounding on the door screaming, "get out here dog! let's play!"

i thought i was going to lose my mind.

[brittone2]

The laughing may seem disturbing, and my kids never did it, but honestly, I wouldn't assign much to it. At 2.5 he just doesn't have reliable empathy. He may see the dramatic reactions he gets and find them amusing because he doesn't *get* that he's hurting others.

That doesn't mean it is okay, but I wouldn't assign much meaning to the laughing at that age. It can be a nervous response, or just a response to not *getting* that he's inflicting pain. It isn't really predictive of him becoming a serial killer or anything ;) Definitely not okay to hurt others, but the laughing along with it just illustrates to me that he doesn't *get* it yet. At 2.5 he's still working on understanding how his actions can hurt others. His parents can work on it with him and prevent it in the first place, but the laughing itself...not necessarily a sign that his behavior is intentionally malicious IMO. In an 7-8 year old, I'd be more concerned, kwim?

eta: I just did a quick search and found this response from someone trained in Jane Nelsen's approach (I like her books very much as do quite a few other posters here I think)
http://www.positivediscipline.com/parents/archive/Tantrums%20and%20Hurting%20Others.html

Note this is about a child turning 4. A 2.5 year old is obviously much more emotionally immature.

[Dr C]

Previous posts have had a lot of great thoughts that I agree with (particularly about positive discipline). I'd like to add just a few additional things:

1. It's hard to discipline your kids when you are out. Kids seem to sense weakness in their parents the moment you leave the house, and will act up more because they think they can get away with it. Unfortunately, they are often right! So maybe things are not quite so bad with A when they are at home. The way to get around that is to be just as consistent with your discipline when you are out as when you are at home (WAAAYYY easier said than done!)

2. It's tough to be an older sibling. My son has always been a pretty easy kid, and was a delightful 2.5-year-old when we decided to try for another. 9 months later when DD arrived, he sprouted horns and a forked tail and there were days when we literally wanted to throw him out the window. It took him about a month or two to adjust but he's finally coming around. But sometimes the adjustment part isn't just bad right away. A 6 month old baby can be a challenging thing for a little kid to deal with (particularly if the baby was a relatively easy newborn). All of a sudden, this little lump who used to sleep all day is getting more and more attention. So that also may be part of what's going on with A. That doesn't excuse his behavior (or mean his parents couldn't use some help with discipline), but it doesn't necessarily strike me as anything pathologic. 2 year olds really do have a primative emotional system and look at all the attention his behavior got him!

3. Finally, I'd like to recommend my favorite discipline book: 1-2-3 Magic by Thomas Phelan. It has lots of great tips and tricks, and bottom line, at least in my house, it works (it's basically a simple 1-2-3 then timeout (or timeout alternative) approach to stop undesirable behavior, and the book also discusses how to get kids to do things you want them to do (like clean up or eat their veggies), and there is a focus on keeping things positive and enjoying your kids).

[gatorsmom]

I've seen this kind of behavior with kids who don't get enough attention, or whose parents don't actively and consistently stop this behavior, redirect, enforce time outs, or try to understand what the child needs (very often behavior like this means the child is getting hungry, tired, bored, etc.). I would agree with everything that Brittone2 said.