Anyone here know anything about Islam? [Archive] - Baby Bargains & Baby 411 Community

bubbaray

01-08-2010, 01:46 AM

PLEASE keep this thread civil as its (obviously) about religion and I would honestly like some help. I'm really not looking for a debate on the *merits* of different religions. People believe what they believe and I respect that -- I just want to understand a religion I know zero about.

Disclosure: I was raised in a very ultra conservative Protestant home. DH and I attend a large, contemporary Mennonite Church, mainly for the girls, though DH and I do believe. I guess we are more "Christian light" -- we attend semi-regularly (not every Sunday, but more Sunday's than not), we don't attend Bible Study, etc.. I'm pretty sure DH only goes for the coffee and the music. And b/c DD#1 LOVES Church and probably has a stronger faith at age 5 than I have ever had.

The girls attend a large daycare. DD#1 is in 1/2-day Kindergarten and spends more time at daycare than at school. The program has a number of teachers for different aspects/programs of the day. All are wonderful. Truly gems. The head teacher for DD#1's program is a lovely lady. She also drives DD#1 (and the other afternoon K students) to Kindy and picks up all kids at the end of the day on the bus. The head teacher has a lovely way with the kids (as do the other teachers).

Fast forward to today. I get there to pick up DD#1 and I see the head teacher wearing a hijab. Since DD#1 started going to this program in September, I have never once seen this teacher wear a hijab or any other head covering. I actually assumed (wrong of me to do so) that she was Sikh as she looks to be of Indian origin and we have a very large Sikh population in our metro area.

Now, my first thought is "I'm gonna kill DH" b/c he normally does pickups and he hasn't mentioned this (when I asked him later he said "oh yeah, what's up with that?"). I really wish he had at least told me and I pray that my jaw didn't drop or anything when I saw her.

I chatted with her a bit, "Happy New Year" and all that, then we left (as I would normally). I asked DD#1 a bit about it on the way home and she said that the teacher told her that wearing the scarf (as DD#1 calls it) "makes [teacher's name] happy" and it sounds like its a New Years resolution or ???. DD#1 is only 5, so I don't want to ask her too much, nor is it really her place to find stuff out, KWIM? It was definitely kinda cool, though, DD#1 was very matter of fact about the whole thing.

Anyway, so what does this *mean*? In hindsight, the teacher's name sounds like a Muslim name, so its more than likely that she has been Muslim for a long time (as opposed to a recent convert over the Christmas school break).

If she recently started wearing a hijab to work, does that have a special meaning? Is she more --- I dunno even what to call it -- devout? I'm not even sure it *is* a hijab -- it is black, quite short, wraps under her chin. Her whole face is visible, but her hair is not. There are at least 3 mosques in our city (many more in our metro area), the closest one is Ismali but I thought that Ismali women didn't cover their heads? There is another mosque that is more, er, conservative and possibly radical. I have seen women walking there wearing the long full-body coverings (burkas?) that only show the eye slits.

If this teacher is now wearing a hijab, will she eventually move to the full body veil? I have mixed feelings about this. She *is* one of two bus drivers for the program and I'm not sure I'm on board with someone driving a bus with only small eye slit openings. I dunno, would have to think about that more. I have seen women driving with hijabs but never with burkas.

DD#1 is quite "chatty" about going to church, believing in Jesus, etc. Will this offend the teacher? Should I tell DD#1 not to talk about it? I'm a little hesitant -- I don't want her to be ashamed of going to Church on Sunday, KWIM? I know if she's asked what she did on the weekend, she'll talk about Church.

Are there certain foods that are off limits? Holidays that are observed, etc? I feel like a complete fool, but I know only a couple of people who are Ismali and not well enough to ask them questions. I know that there are Sunni and Shiite Muslims, but have zero clue what the difference is.

On my way to the gym tonight I had a bit of a lightbulb moment. I mean, this lady is just lovely -- as a person and with the children. That hasn't changed. The only thing that has changed (AFAIK) is that she has now chosen to wear a hijab to work. Really, she could wear a purple Barney suit to work and I should be thankful that she is so great with the kids, KWIM?

Anyway, if anyone has dealt with this or can give me the 411 or Islam for Dummies primer, that would be great. I truly do want to be respectful.

Thanks!

salsah

01-08-2010, 02:10 AM

i took a couple of courses on a islam in college. i went to a Jesuit university that required all students to take several religion courses. feel free to pm me with specific questions (i still have all my books).

for starters, try this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

nov04

01-08-2010, 02:20 AM

It's strange, I'd never really even thought about it. Ladies all around us wear hijabs. At my retail job, dd1's school, mostly anywhere else we go, someone has one.

I think the only thing that I actually took notice of was that my friend's dh wouldn't shake my hand. Not really an issue since I don't plan on shaking his hand again (we've already met) and we're not close enough to potentially hug.

There's nothing different that I do for any of my friends, acquaintances that wear hijabs. We share what we're doing with our families at different times so they do discuss their religious gathering but in the context of family.

Quite honestly, I think your dd discussing church and Jesus shouldn't change. She's not trying to force her beliefs on her teacher, just sharing things as she always has.

wellyes

01-08-2010, 02:21 AM

Is it just a headscarf? I wouldn't be uncomfortable with that at all. Lots of Muslim women wear headscarfs. Just like lots of Jewish men always wear a headcovering.

In hindsight, the teacher's name sounds like a Muslim name, so its more than likely that she has been Muslim for a long timeAh, be careful of that, Muslim is not a language. Your fist instinct of her being Indian may be spot-on, since there are lots of Indian Muslims (or she may be Pakistani.)

Honestly the only culturally-different type of outfit that makes me a little uncomfortable is when I see older women in the mall wearing saris that expose their midriffs. And that's just MY personal comfort level. I'm just not used to seeing exposed bellies of anyone except those of toned young people. So seeing not-in-shape elderly bellies hanging out takes me aback a little. But they're not doing anything wrong. Exposed bellies or covered heads - it's all just different cultural expectations of what's comfortable.

Regarding Islam, Bernard Lewis has written some very good books talking about it specifically to a Western/Christian audience - this one (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0132230852/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0195144201&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0BPZBCHBZTXX0C8SH9A5) is short, very informative & available at just about any library. I just read it last month! :)

kijip

01-08-2010, 02:25 AM

I would not assume that because she is wearing a head scarf now that she will want to wear a full veil and burqa later so i would not worry about the driving thing you mentioned at all. I know a number of women of all ages who wear hijab in the form of a head scarf but I think a full veil in the Pac NW tends to be exceedingly rare, more so for women who are working outside the home.

Re: food, it is likely she already was eating halal foods. Halal restricts the eating of pork, some other meats, meats slaughtered in a particular fashion and a number of other things.

I would see it as her reconnecting with her religion, as many younger people do as they age (spend time not observing their faith or going to religious services but then reconnect as they get a little older or more settled or start a family). I have had Orthodox Jewish friends for example become more observant of kosher laws and traditions and also seen many Christian friends return to active religious participation once they get a little older or move to a different stage of life. I would assume that it is a comparable situation for her from how you describe things and that she had not been wearing a head scarf before.

bubbaray

01-08-2010, 02:38 AM

Ah, be careful of that, Muslim is not a language. Your fist instinct of her being Indian may be spot-on, since there are lots of Indian Muslims (or she may be Pakistani.)

Ok, thanks. I should have more accurately said her name isn't Sikh, as there definitely are Sikh names (all men have Singh in their name, all women have Kaur).

I'm curious (but would never ask) what prompted this. She's older than I am and her daughter was previously one of the preschool summer camp teachers for DD#1. Her DD does not veil.

Thanks ladies.

gummibear

01-08-2010, 02:46 AM

First, you know more about the religion than I do. So I can't answer a bunch of your questions. But I will say that I find most people appreciate being asked about their religion if asked openly and honestly. So I would ask your Islami friends/acquaintances. Better yet, ask the head teacher. She should enjoy telling you about her faith and what the hijab means to her, especially if she just started wearing it.

When I was younger I approached a Jewish guy I knew and said "can I ask you an ignorant question? Bear in mind I'm from a Protestant state and there are not as many Jewish people as there are here." (he said ok) "So... What's that thing on your head?" he gave me a full explanation, and appreciated my interest.

Second, if it makes you uncomfortable at all that she might be more "devout" than you expected and are wondering about that influence on DD, I would suggest praying about it. And then maybe talk to someone at church if you feel the need. Faith is not politically correct. It's tough being a Christian parent. The right thing will come to you though, whatever that is.

Third, re "Should I tell DD#1 not to talk about it?" Absolutely not! Jesus is her friend (and more), not an imaginary buddy. Political correctness has no place when it comes to our children's faith (whether Christian or otherwise).

Personally, I wish they taught religion in school - in an overview kind of way at least. My Sis said she'd let her kids decide when they were old enough, but to me that's trying to pick dinner with no menu. And when all you hear are other diners' complaints about the various dishes, you don't feel so hungry sometimes. It'll never happen though - it's too hard to teach it without offending somebody.

Good luck!

Globetrotter

01-08-2010, 03:39 AM

At least you are trying to learn more, which is good.

I'm neither Muslim nor an expert on Islam, but after reading your post I realized how fortunate I am to live in a place where these things are no big deal. At our school, there are a couple of women who wear the burqua and we hardly bat an eyelash :) Hijab is absolutely not a big deal. I know several people started covering AFTER 9/11, to show that Muslims are regular people and in the hope that this would reduce the stigma. That was an awful time for Muslims (or those of us who could pass for Muslim).
As an aside, my Hindu BIL has received verbal assaults from people who assumed he was Muslim :(

One of my friends chose to cover a few years ago as she was "ready spiritually" at the time. There could be pressure from her in-laws. It's hard to say! As a PP said, sometimes we reconnect with our religion as we get a little older. Don't read too much into this.

Absolutely do not ask your dd to change anything, but if she asks questions, do be ready to answer them. If you don't make a big deal of this, she probably won't, either. It's just a scarf :)

citymama

01-08-2010, 04:24 AM

I agree with the others: if you're not familiar with a hijab, don't assume she's Muslim and it's a head scarf. She may be Sikh, with a dupatta over her head. She may be Orthodox Jewish or have recently converted. Or she may be Muslim and have some more conservative family visiting for whom she feels she needs to look more traditional. Feel free to PM me if you want an opinion or confirmation one way or the other! And I doubt that a bus driver who has started wearing a head scarf is going to move to a full burqa - I've never seen anyone in full burqa in North America, and certainly not a career woman like you're describing.

Regardless of her religion or reasons for wearing a head dress, it sounds like the teacher is not trying to impose anything on anyone, and her reply to your DD sounds quite appropriate - wearing the scarf it makes her happy. I'd have been concerned if there was anything else more aggressively stated, but that sounds reasonable. I'm sure as far as your DD is concerned, it's like your wearing a silk scarf around your neck with your pant suit to work! And I would hope the teacher will be similarly respectful of what your DD says about church - if that changes, I would be concerned. And I agree with the PP - you should feel free to ask her rather than skirting the issue - she is probably expecting questions from parents and may welcome the opportunity to talk about it.

it's funny to me how wearing a headscarf or a bindi or a turban or a kippah always raises all these questions for those of us unused to seeing them more often, when these are the most routine things for millions of people around the world, not carrying much significance or indication of piety or observance. In most cases, it really is like the silk scarf, or maybe more like a cross worn on a necklace around someone else's neck.

kali

01-08-2010, 05:04 AM

...Muslim is not a language. Your fist instinct of her being Indian may be spot-on, since there are lots of Indian Muslims (or she may be Pakistani.)

No, Islam is not a language; however, among South Asians one can almost always tell Muslims from Hindus, Sikhs, and Christians from their names. Also, Melissa, you are right that she is almost certainly not Ismaili--Ismailis are not expected to cover their hair. Sikh women don't normally cover their head/hair all day--maybe at the temple, but it's not expected all the time.

Honestly, given the timing I would go with your first instinct that it may be a New Year's resolution the same way people of any religion might resolve to be more observant or to reconnect with their spiritual roots. And I really wouldn't assume that the next stage would be a burka. As an example, there is a big a difference between a Reform Jew deciding to keep Kosher and a Reform Jew becoming Orthodox, moving to a kibbutz in Israel and having 10 kids

I think it's great if you are trying to learn about this woman's culture and beliefs in order to connect with her. There is nothing wrong with asking her questions in a non-judgmental way. Don't be so worried about offending her--she lives in America after all, where you are entitled to your beliefs and culture as much as she is.

TwinFoxes

01-08-2010, 05:06 AM

I think most of your questions have been answered, but I wanted to chime in and say the teacher is probably expecting some questions, and most likely won't be offended if you ask her respectfully. Especially if you are supportive.

I know a bit about Islam. You asked about holidays. Ramadan is a holy month during which Muslims fast from morning until evening. She was probably participating in the fast already. Eid al Fitr (sp?) is the holiday that marks the end of Ramadan. Typically there's a big family meal, kids get candy and gifts, etc. It happens in September-ish depending on the moon. (that's why the crescent moon is associated with Islam). Another major holiday is about a month and 1/2 later called Eid al Adha (again, sp?), which is a holiday of thanks and charity. Some Muslims slaughter an animal to share with the poor (I think that's uncommon in North America, but I'm sure some folks do, or have one slaughtered more likely).

One other small thing, Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam I believe (not on the same level as Mohammad of course). Regardless, I don't think your DDs teacher will be offended if DD talks about church. No one who works with kids would expect them not to talk about something that important to them :). Also, I doubt you'd be able to get DD to not talk about it! :)

TwinFoxes

01-08-2010, 05:17 AM

Oh, I forgot, you asked if certain foods are forbidden. They are. Permitted foods are "Halal". The term Halal means lawful, there's a term for not-Halal, but I can't remember what it is. Halal doesn't just apply to food. But anyway, pork is obviously the big no-no. And alcohol. And gelatin is the other thing I know isn't Halal. So no jello shots for snacks! ;)

maestramommy

01-08-2010, 07:58 AM

There was an article in the Christian Science Monitor a couple of weeks ago (actually the cover article) on why Muslim women wear the hijab. The reasons seem to be myriad. But some reasons that caught my attention were 1) it self-identifies them as Muslim, much like wearing a cross for a Christian, 2) it's part of their culture, and something they want to state to themselves and others, 3) the men in their lives feel better when they do.

If you can do a search for this article, I'm sure you will find it interesting. It was quite lengthy for CSM, and there was a sidebar by a college student who was wearing her hijab when 9/11 happened.

You can also just ask this woman about it. It sounds like you have a good working relationship with her. Something like, "that's a lovely hijab! I noticed you recently started wearing one. Any significance?" or something like that.

gatorsmom

01-08-2010, 10:00 AM

I know a few Muslims from different countries and wanted to add that Islam, like any religion, is celebrated and observed a little differently in different regions around the world and also vary by family's beliefs.. So, for example, my friend from Iran only wore a headscarf and when she moved out of Iran she stopped wearing it. Her DH and her kids were only lookwarm in their practice of it. And it would have been unthinkable for her to wear a burqa. ever. Another family I know from Morocco wore headscarfs and tried a lot harder to teach their children about their religion and observe Ramadan but it was difficult for them (their daughter was active in sports at school and she had a hard time fasting all day and then only eating a lot at night). But they would never have gone to anything more than headscarfs, either.

I don't think it would be a problem if you asked her why she started wearing it. I think she'd probably be happy to talk about it and her beliefs. I know I would ask in a friendly, curious, off- the- cuff sort of way. Frankly, I wouldn't change what I'm doing with my children. Unless she asked you not to send a specific food item with your kids to school, how would you know that she's offended by that? Unless she tells you differently, nothing has changed between you except she's now wearing a scarf on her head. I assume being a sweet and intelligent lady that if she needed some other response/accommodations from the parents, she would let you know.

Honestly, if I were as busy as you, I'd leave the whole situation to simply asking her about it and if she wanted to talk about it and then leave it at that.

bubbaray

01-08-2010, 11:37 AM

Thanks everyone!

babybell

01-08-2010, 11:39 AM

Muslims are typically quite open to talking about issues of faith, including the position/role of Jesus in Islam. I would not be worried about your child talking about Jesus to/in front of her. I bet if you asked her to teach you some things about Islam she would be more than happy to.

The history of the Abrahamic religons (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is one of supersessionism (replacement theology). Judaism came first. Christianity superseeded it with the revelation of Christ and the New Testament. Islam superseeded Christianity with the Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an. This is to say that Muslims believe that Islam is the last and final thread of God's revelation to mankind. This is why Jews and Christians are "people of the book"; because God revealed himself to them first, but they "changed" his message. Muhammed came to set things right.

Please PM me if you have specific questions about Islam. I would consider myself an aspiring religious scholar. :)

bubbaray

01-08-2010, 11:41 AM

No, Islam is not a language; however, among South Asians one can almost always tell Muslims from Hindus, Sikhs, and Christians from their names. Also, Melissa, you are right that she is almost certainly not Ismaili--Ismailis are not expected to cover their hair. Sikh women don't normally cover their head/hair all day--maybe at the temple, but it's not expected all the time.

Thanks -- this is definitely my experience with the South Asian community and people from India specifically.

We have some ultra-conservative Sikh temples here and some of the women do wear turbans all the time (and kirpans), which are wrapped differently than the mens' turbans. I've never seen a Sikh head covering that looks anything like a hijab, they are very different.

bubbaray

01-08-2010, 11:42 AM

The history of the Abrahamic religons (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) is one of supersessionism (replacement theology). Judaism came first. Christianity superseeded it with the revelation of Christ and the New Testament. Islam superseeded Christianity with the Prophet Muhammad and the Qur'an. This is to say that Muslims believe that Islam is the last and final thread of God's revelation to mankind. This is why Jews and Christians are "people of the book"; because God revealed himself to them first, but they "changed" his message. Muhammed came to set things right.

Cool -- thanks!

MamaMolly

01-08-2010, 12:01 PM

Awesome thread, Melissa! I lived in a Muslim country for 2 years and really don't have much more to offer other than what everyone else has said. It is great you are curious and want to know more and like the PPs said I'd go to the source and ask for more information. IME people are happy to answer. :)

vejemom

01-08-2010, 12:40 PM

My ILs are Muslim, from India/Southeast Asia. Theoretically, DH would be Muslim, but he doesn't particularly believe in organized religion. We got married in the Episcopalian church that I attend.

My FIL is totally non-observant, beyond not drinking alcohol and eating pork. MIL is observant, but pretty private about it. She stays with us for part of the week to watch the girls for me. She observes the fast for Ramadan, and will bring a prayer rug and put on a hijab for prayer during Ramadan. DD#1 has picked up the habit of exclaiming "Allah, Allah!" when she does something dangerous. It's my MIL's version of exclaiming "Oh my God!" when she sees DD#1 teetering on the glass coffee table or similar.

I think you've gotten some great answers about why she might have started wearing the hijab. I don't think she would be offended if you asked. My FIL's cousin (she is several decades younger than him) is pretty mainstream American - feminist, has a high-powered job, etc., but chooses to wear the hijab and modest clothing. She likes the connection to her faith that she feels from doing so.

I think it is important to note that some things that non-Muslims tend to associate with Islam are not religious at all, but cultural. The burqua is one of those. It is common in Saudi Arabia and some of the other gulf states. If she were from a Burqua wearing country, she wouldn't be working outside of the home, let alone driving a bus. You do see it in my area occasionally, but I live near Washington DC.

Globetrotter

01-08-2010, 01:02 PM

Honestly the only culturally-different type of outfit that makes me a little uncomfortable is when I see older women in the mall wearing saris that expose their midriffs. And that's just MY personal comfort level. I'm just not used to seeing exposed bellies of anyone except those of toned young people

Remind me not to wear a sari in front of you :ROTFLMAO:

Wish I was toned!! But it goes to show it's what you are used to, because my grandmothers let it all hang out, but it's considered traditional. Whereas they would have NEVER worn a swimsuit because that is too revealing.

AnnieW625

01-08-2010, 01:12 PM

I went to school with a few Muslim girls and there are some who start wearing a hajib around their 16th birthday. One girl did this through out the rest of high school, and has now stopped wearing it (we reconnected through Facebook). I have Muslim friends at work who are Pakistanian or Jordanian and neither of them wear it. I love their saris though that they wear to parties though, so beautiful. I also love their sandals. I live now right near an area with a very high South Asian population so it's not un heard of to drive down on of the main streets in that city or be at the mall on the weekend and see people in saris.

citymama

01-08-2010, 01:46 PM

Thanks -- this is definitely my experience with the South Asian community and people from India specifically.

We have some ultra-conservative Sikh temples here and some of the women do wear turbans all the time (and kirpans), which are wrapped differently than the mens' turbans. I've never seen a Sikh head covering that looks anything like a hijab, they are very different.

Typically it's Sikh men who wear a turban and carry a kirpan (and the other "Ks" that Sikh men are required to have on them at all times). Women keep their hair long and never cut it all their lives, but don't typically wear turbans. Some wear long scarves (dupattas) over their heads.

MamaKath

01-08-2010, 03:57 PM

Neat thread! I have learned alot myself. :) Not sure if your Mennonite church asks you to cover, but some of the reasons would be a bit similar. Just a thought.

salsah

01-08-2010, 08:32 PM

i was just coming back to reply fully (i saw this last night but didn't have time to respond because i really needed to sleep), but i don't think i need to. i think everyone answered all of the op's questions already (and did a better job than i would have). i loved reading the responses. it is so interesting, i wish i had gone thru with the minor in religious studies!

kali

01-09-2010, 01:51 AM

We have some ultra-conservative Sikh temples here and some of the women do wear turbans all the time (and kirpans), which are wrapped differently than the mens' turbans. I've never seen a Sikh head covering that looks anything like a hijab, they are very different.

Wow, despite being South Asian myself, I'm learning a lot here. My parents live almost across the street from a Gurdwara (Sikh temple) and I have NEVER seen an Indian Sikh woman wear a head covering. I have seen the occasional Western convert wearing a turban. (Apart from converts, almost all Sikhs are ethnically Indian.)

bubbaray

01-09-2010, 11:09 AM

ha98ed14

01-09-2010, 01:02 PM

Judicious I am not. *Sigh*

egoldber

01-09-2010, 01:42 PM

The men won't touch women (or shake the hands of women) who aren't their relatives.

Many Orthodox Jews do this too. They do not generally touch people of the opposite gender. Many Orthodox Jews also cover their hair in various ways (wigs, headscarves,....) This is not unique to Islam.

wellyes

01-09-2010, 01:45 PM

The men won't touch women (or shake the hands of women) who aren't their relatives. It's some way of "fleeing temptation" or something. On top of the requirement/ encouragement that women cover themselves (again as to not tempt the men) makes me have a very hard time with this faith traditionThe way I see it, women wearing headscarves is pretty similar to women wearing bikini tops. It's not remotely necessary. In other parts of the world (many parts of Europe) women going topless on the beach is completely normal and fine. Why do we feel compelled to cover our breasts here in the US? I'm sure part of the answer is because men are present..... I am too modest to go topless, even on a topless beach. If another woman is even more modest and is most comfortable by wearing a headscarf, well that is no skin off my nose.

As for it being all about not tempting men, I don't know. I think it is a religious expression. My mom told me that her church (Catholic) required all women to wear a hat or veil during mass until about 30-40 years ago. I can't imagine, but it was completely normal for her growing up.

salsah

01-09-2010, 01:55 PM

lizzywednesday

01-09-2010, 01:59 PM

Many Orthodox Jews do this too. They do not generally touch people of the opposite gender. Many Orthodox Jews also cover their hair in various ways (wigs, headscarves,....) This is not unique to Islam.

...

As for it being all about not tempting men, I don't know. I think it is a religious expression. My mom told me that her church (Catholic) required all women to wear a hat or veil during mass until about 30-40 years ago. I can't imagine, but it was completely normal for her growing up.

For both Orthodox Jews and pre-Vatican II Catholics, covering one's head/hair is done as a sign of respect to G-d and to remove the distraction of earthly beauty from the practice of Worship.

Orthodox Jews' views take this further in that a woman's hair is a thing of beauty and, when she marries, things of beauty should be reserved for her husband alone.

As for the not touching non-related people of the opposite sex, unmarried Orthodox Jewish people often call this "shomer nogiyim" (I am transliterating that incorrectly, I am sure) and it's a way of remaining chaste before and during marriage. Many of my college friends were "shomer" so I got used to not offering a handshake when encountering someone religious.

ETA: I am not Jewish and grew up Catholic.

dhano923

01-09-2010, 02:16 PM

Wow, despite being South Asian myself, I'm learning a lot here. My parents live almost across the street from a Gurdwara (Sikh temple) and I have NEVER seen an Indian Sikh woman wear a head covering. I have seen the occasional Western convert wearing a turban. (Apart from converts, almost all Sikhs are ethnically Indian.)

I'm Sikh. My dad does wear a turban, and I cut my hair after I got married. Many Sikh women do wear turbans, but it's not too common here in the US. They tend to be the more orthodox women. Older women tend to keep their heads covered with their scarf, just because that's how it used to be back in day. In temple, we must keep our head covered as a sign of respect. So some women just cover whenever they are out in public. Also many "American Sikhs", as they are known, who are caucasian Sikhs, tend to wear the orthodox traditional attire. They also tend to have very "elaborate" names that Sikhs of Indian heritage wouldn't normally use. I live in LA, and we have the Guru Ram Das Ashram here which is a well known ashram for American Sikhs to congregate.

An earlier post mentioned that you can tell a muslim person by their name. That is true in many cases, but there are alot of Sikh names that are also considered muslim names. Sikhism is a cross of Islam and Hinduism. For example, the name "Iqbal" is both Muslim and Sikh. So is "Tanvir". Sikhs don't always use Singh and Kaur too -- many use their village/caste name from long time back as that's been adapted as the last name. So a Sikh person could be using a last name like Grewal or Marwah or Sethi. Sikhism prohibits castes, but people still do it.

As for Islam, I have many Islamic friends. Female circumcision is not something governed by Islam -- it's a cultural thing. Different countries do it because of the cultural belief, not because of religious belief. There are many muslim countires that do not practice FC. Head covering styles are also dictated by culture. A woman in Saudi Arabia must cover herself from head to toe, while a Muslim woman in Malaysia may only wear a head scarf. A woman in India may not cover at all. It all depends on the environment in which she lives in.

I know many people who aren't accustomed to seeing a woman in a scarf may think "oh she's muslim and she is probably unable to speak her voice" but in actuality, many women want to wear a headcovering. Why do women wear hats or earrings? To make them look nice. Same with the headscarf -- it's part of some people's religion or cultural identity.

A muslim woman would probably never wear a skimpy swimsuit on the beach, but in the US, for example, it's common. She's probably be shocked. But then many Americans see a woman in a headscarf and are shocked too. It's all about what you grew up with and what you know and where you live.

Another poster mentioned that if her DD questioned the headscarf, she would tell her daughter that woman's religion is wrong/false. What does that teach your child? You should teach your child that all religions are different and that everyone has different beliefs. Learn what you can about other people in the world -- it's the only way not to pass ignorance on.

lizzywednesday

01-09-2010, 02:22 PM

i'm not sure what tradition you are refering to, but to clarify, that is NOT allowed in islam.

It is common for Westerners to associate it with practitioners in Africa, but there are other practices there which have NOTHING to do with Islam that come into play. I don't know whether it is common among the Muslim communities there (I only have one friend who is a Muslim from Africa; he is from Ghana.)

However, Ayan Hirsi Ali has spoken out about it and nearly suffered it herself as a child.

The practice is commonly called either "female circumcision" or "genital mutilation" by the press.

gatorsmom

01-09-2010, 02:43 PM

The way I see it, women wearing headscarves is pretty similar to women wearing bikini tops. It's not remotely necessary. If another woman is even more modest and is most comfortable by wearing a headscarf, well that is no skin off my nose.

This is absolutely true and very well put. It's all about what each person is comfortable with. How can that be considered wrong? In order for us all to get along, I think it's important that we try to respect that.

And as for the Catholic head coverng, you are absolutely right. My mother, who joined the Catholic church at 18yo and pre-Vatican II found it VERY strange that she couldn't enter the church building without some sort of headcovering.

kali

01-09-2010, 04:04 PM

An earlier post mentioned that you can tell a muslim person by their name. That is true in many cases, but there are alot of Sikh names that are also considered muslim names. Sikhism is a cross of Islam and Hinduism. For example, the name "Iqbal" is both Muslim and Sikh. So is "Tanvir". Sikhs don't always use Singh and Kaur too -- many use their village/caste name from long time back as that's been adapted as the last name. So a Sikh person could be using a last name like Grewal or Marwah or Sethi. Sikhism prohibits castes, but people still do it.

That was my post. I see your point about names and the history of Sikhism in the context of Indian history/culture, but would still argue that when you look at both the first and last name you can usually deduct the person's religion. For example, there a lot of Christians in India that have "traditional" Indian first names, but Christian surnames. (e.g. Vinod John.) If a Sikh had a Muslim first name and a surname based from their village/caste (which derive from the ancient Hindu caste system), that would also be kind of a giveaway. By the way, Muslims in South Asia, especially in rural areas often still observe some kind of caste system

Sorry to get so technical here--I find the confluence of religion and culture fascinating! Another person mentioned female genital mutilation as part of Muslim tradition, but really it's an older cultural practice that coincides with Islam in some regions and which Islam is sometimes used to justify!

Getting back to South Asian names: certainly, there are some names that are ambiguous. There are Singhs that aren't Sikh. We chose DS' name partly because it could be a Hindu or Muslim name and we like that ambiguity (especially paired with DH's Jewish surname, lol).

Globetrotter

01-09-2010, 04:16 PM

Another poster mentioned that if her DD questioned the headscarf, she would tell her daughter that woman's religion is wrong/false. What does that teach your child? You should teach your child that all religions are different and that everyone has different beliefs. Learn what you can about other people in the world -- it's the only way not to pass ignorance on.:yeahthat: I do understand the poster's reservations, but she's assuming that it's degrading to the women in question. Personally, I struggle with the concept of the burqua as that is a full covering and I can't understand it. i wouldn't tell my kid it was wrong because, as I said, i don't understand it. The hijab is proudly worn by many forward-thinking women. To some it's a religious symbol, to others an everyday practice,like wearing jewelry. You can't assume it's done under duress. I know this is VERY odd for the modern Western-thinking world, but these are cultural differences.

ETA: Kudos to Bubbary for asking and not making assumptions!

As others have mentioned, FC is a cultural practice. See, these are the sorts of misunderstandings that lead to ignorance and even prejudice. That's not the sort of world I want to live in.

Aarohismom

01-09-2010, 04:55 PM

Honestly the only culturally-different type of outfit that makes me a little uncomfortable is when I see older women in the mall wearing saris that expose their midriffs. And that's just MY personal comfort level. I'm just not used to seeing exposed bellies of anyone except those of toned young people. So seeing not-in-shape elderly bellies hanging out takes me aback a little. But they're not doing anything wrong. Exposed bellies or covered heads - it's all just different cultural expectations of what's comfortable.

This is funny because my mom was shocked to see the not very toned women wearing shorts, tanks, bikinis. I guess she is just used to seeing the exposed hanging bellies. :hysterical:

TwinFoxes

01-09-2010, 09:57 PM

When I read about the clitoridectomies that are performed in the name of/ condoned by/ or just not spoken out against this tradition, it makes me angry. Ok... I guess I am getting very un-PC.

Female/circumcision/genital cutting/genital mutilation is practiced throughout Africa (and parts of Asia) but not solely by Muslms. Ethiopian Jews are known to practice it, as are Christians as well as people who practice indigenous religion. It is not a widely accepted Muslim practice, and especially not outside of Africa and Asia. It's not commanded in the Koran. Maybe you didn't mean it, but it seems like you're saying this is a widespread Muslim practice, and it's just not. I'm not being PC, but it's just not correct to say that Islam supports the practice.

As for hijab, I think there's a big difference between choosing to wear a headscarf vs being force to wear a burkha or chador. I think the bikini top analogy is a really good one. I did the whole backpacking around Europe thing, and was traveling with two guys from Texas that I met. I went to the beach and was the ONLY woman with a top, I just couldn't bring myself to take it off in front of my traveling companions. I'm sure I looked like a prudish freak to the Europeans.

mamicka

01-09-2010, 10:15 PM

Melaine

01-09-2010, 10:42 PM

dhano923

01-09-2010, 11:33 PM

I'm not that poster, but I would say that you are assuming here that teaching your child that something is wrong is teaching them ignorance or teaching them to be disrespectful (someone else mentioned this). I teach my kids that lots of things that other people believe are things that we think are wrong. We also teach them to be respectful of what other people believe. They are not disrespectful or ignorant.

I understand what you are saying, but there is a difference between sayingto a child "Their religion is wrong" versus "They believe X and we believe Y". Everyone likes to believe that their way is the right way, so to speak. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've been approached by someone who starts off making small talk with me and then hit me with the "come visit our Church and let Jesus save you before you go to hell" speech. I've been approached in the grocery store, in the mall, at the gas station and many other places. In college, it probably happened 1-2 times a week, no joke.

No one can prove that their religion is right or wrong -- you believe what you do because you have faith in it.

mamicka

01-09-2010, 11:39 PM

I understand what you are saying, but there is a difference between sayingto a child "Their religion is wrong" versus "They believe X and we believe Y". Everyone likes to believe that their way is the right way, so to speak. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've been approached by someone who starts off making small talk with me and then hit me with the "come visit our Church and let Jesus save you before you go to hell" speech. I've been approached in the grocery store, in the mall, at the gas station and many other places. In college, it probably happened 1-2 times a week, no joke.

No one can prove that their religion is right or wrong -- you believe what you do because you have faith in it.

I understand what you are saying I simply disagree. There is a difference between saying people believe differently & saying someone is wrong. I have no problem with teaching my kids that other people are wrong. I don't have to prove anything. Nor do I have a problem with other people teaching their kids that we are wrong. That has nothing to do with respect or ignorance.

SnuggleBuggles

01-09-2010, 11:50 PM

I understand what you are saying, but there is a difference between sayingto a child "Their religion is wrong" versus "They believe X and we believe Y". Everyone likes to believe that their way is the right way, so to speak. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've been approached by someone who starts off making small talk with me and then hit me with the "come visit our Church and let Jesus save you before you go to hell" speech. I've been approached in the grocery store, in the mall, at the gas station and many other places. In college, it probably happened 1-2 times a week, no joke.

No one can prove that their religion is right or wrong -- you believe what you do because you have faith in it.

I completely agree with this. I think setting it up as a right and wrong can lead to stereotyping, discrimination and maybe even hate. All for something that really doesn't have a right and wrong in my book- just differences.

Ds1 went to a Jewish preschool and dh and I were raised Christian and Catholic. If ds1 ever goes to church it would be one of those. Yet, he went to the Jewish school and would sometimes ask about the differences. We just matter of factly explained how some families believe one thing and others believe another. I can't imagine telling him something like, "well, they don't believe in Jesus and they are just wrong." It just doesn't sit well with me. Of course, I admit to not really believing much about religion.

Beth

bubbaray

01-10-2010, 12:01 AM

I can't imagine telling him something like, "well, they don't believe in Jesus and they are just wrong."

Not really what I wanted the thread to spin into, but I think I understand what Allison is saying. If you really "believe" your particular religion, then other religions are "wrong" (not Wrong). For example, Jews do not believe that Jesus is the son of God. So, in applying logic, they think that Christian beliefs that Jesus is the son of God are wrong. Just like Christians believe that Jews are wrong in their belief that Jesus is not the son of God. I don't know a lot about Islam, but the analogies apply -- Muslims believe that Mohammed is the true prophet and Christians do not.

Its a zero sum game. If you truly believe your religion, someone logically must be wrong. I think teaching your child that is OK. I think that is empircially different than teaching them that being Islamic or Jewish or Christian is Wrong.

Globetrotter

01-10-2010, 05:50 AM

If you really "believe" your particular religion, then other religions are "wrong" (not Wrong).

There are exceptions, like Hinduism, which does recognize other prophets. Overall, though, this is why I personally have a hard time with religion, because I feel it divides as much as it unites people of a particular faith.

As much as I don't agree with some things in other religions, I'm not going to teach my kids they are wrong (I'm talking about things like hijab). Some negative things that are associated with Islam are actually cultural or political beliefs, and I think it is VERY important to know that. There are many cultural practices (like dowry) that do make my blood boil, and I would teach my kids they are wrong, but I'm not going to paint a whole group of people as wrong because some of them practice this.

In fact, that's one reason I couldn't wait to move away from the South to a more diverse area, where we are accepted and not hit up for conversions all the time. I feel it's more important to teach respect about other religions - that is my personal belief.

tnrnchick74

01-10-2010, 06:35 AM

I completely agree with this. I think setting it up as a right and wrong can lead to stereotyping, discrimination and maybe even hate. All for something that really doesn't have a right and wrong in my book- just differences.

I agree with that statement. There are moral choices that people make, some are culturally based, that I will teach my child are wrong (suicide bombing, female circumcision, caste systems, to name a few). But stating that the differences between people are wrong is dangerous is my opinion. Not believing in Jesus, not celebrating Christmas, wearing religious clothing - those aren't "moral" decision in my opinion. They are person religious/spiritual choices that should be respected. Stating that someone is "wrong" because they made a different personal choice that you is disrespectful in my opinion. Its not different that stating that someone who is left handed is "wrong" - nope, just different. Stating "they believe x, but we believe y" is much different and more respectful.

pinkmomagain

01-10-2010, 10:45 AM

I agree with that statement. There are moral choices that people make, some are culturally based, that I will teach my child are wrong (suicide bombing, female circumcision, caste systems, to name a few). But stating that the differences between people are wrong is dangerous is my opinion. Not believing in Jesus, not celebrating Christmas, wearing religious clothing - those aren't "moral" decision in my opinion. They are person religious/spiritual choices that should be respected. Stating that someone is "wrong" because they made a different personal choice that you is disrespectful in my opinion. Its not different that stating that someone who is left handed is "wrong" - nope, just different. Stating "they believe x, but we believe y" is much different and more respectful.

I agree with this 100%. I can't imagine telling my children that another's beliefs are "wrong," just simply "their choice" or "different from ours." To label another's religious beliefs as wrong seems to me an arrogance that thinly veils a deep insecurity.

Melaine

01-10-2010, 12:01 PM

I agree with this 100%. I can't imagine telling my children that another's beliefs are "wrong," just simply "their choice" or "different from ours." To label another's religious beliefs as wrong seems to me an arrogance that thinly veils a deep insecurity.

You have to understand that for a fundamental Christian to be true to their beliefs, there has to be a right and a wrong. Just as I wouldn't expect a atheist to teach their Children that the Bible is true, you can't expect me to teach mine that it is untrue. Biblically speaking, Jesus said that "He is the way, the truth and the life," and no one can go to heaven but through Him. I know that everyone thinks their choices are right, but for a Christian, our belief systems dictates that there is only one right way. We have to be honest in teaching our children, and this is the truth that we very passionately believe. However, that doesn't mean that I don't accept others or treat them with respect. I do. You will just have to believe me that you would never find me being disrespectful or unkind to someone about their religious beliefs. Doing so would also go against my beliefs.

JustMe

01-10-2010, 12:09 PM

tnrnchick74

01-10-2010, 01:07 PM

You have to understand that for a fundamental Christian to be true to their beliefs, there has to be a right and a wrong. Just as I wouldn't expect a atheist to teach their Children that the Bible is true, you can't expect me to teach mine that it is untrue. Biblically speaking, Jesus said that "He is the way, the truth and the life," and no one can go to heaven but through Him. I know that everyone thinks their choices are right, but for a Christian, our belief systems dictates that there is only one right way. We have to be honest in teaching our children, and this is the truth that we very passionately believe. However, that doesn't mean that I don't accept others or treat them with respect. I do. You will just have to believe me that you would never find me being disrespectful or unkind to someone about their religious beliefs. Doing so would also go against my beliefs.

If you tell me that MY beliefs are wrong because YOU do not agree with them, then you are disrespecting me and my fundamental right to have beliefs different than yours. It's no different than telling someone who is left handed THEY are wrong. No, they are DIFFERENT. There is a huge difference between telling a child someone is wrong and telling a child someone is different than they are and we believe xyz.

This is yet another perfect example of why I will never agree with the fundamentalist christians. I will not allow my child to be disrespected by people who think like this. We are Jewish - we are not "wrong". We have different beliefs than you, but they are still valid and "right" for us.

babybell

01-10-2010, 01:18 PM

pinkmomagain

01-10-2010, 01:25 PM

You have to understand that for a fundamental Christian to be true to their beliefs, there has to be a right and a wrong. Just as I wouldn't expect a atheist to teach their Children that the Bible is true, you can't expect me to teach mine that it is untrue.

I am an athiest and I teach my children that other people believe the Bible to be true. And while I don't personally believe the same, I don't believe that I am "right" and others are "wrong."

SnuggleBuggles

01-10-2010, 01:34 PM

I am an athiest and I teach my children that other people believe the Bible to be true. And while I don't personally believe the same, I don't believe that I am "right" and others are "wrong."

:yeahthat: While I am more of an agnostic, this is what I say too.

Beth

tnrnchick74

01-10-2010, 01:35 PM

I think it may be important to think about what each religion itself says about this. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are by nature exclusivist (meaning, salvation through their religion alone) according to their religious texts. The Torah tells the Jews to have no other God before God. The New Testament tells Christians that Jesus is the way, the truth and life and no one gets to God any other way. The Qur'an states that Islam is the only true and right path to God. (I'm paraphrasing these texts.)

It is totally acceptable for any Jew, Christian, or Muslim to state that their religion is right and others are wrong, if they are being true to what they believe is the authoritative revelation from God. Likewise it is appropriate for them to teach their children as such. Of course, there are liberal streams of all three of these faiths that are more inclusivistic and pluralistic. But being true to the text in the Abrahamic faiths means being true to exclusivity.

While the Torah states that you should have no other G-d before him, it also states to honor and respect your neighbors. It's also a religion that does not proselytize and "witness". And while Judaism is the "right" religion for me & my family, I would NEVER tell my Mother (who is Christian) SHE IS WRONG. We have doctrinal differences, but I respect her right to believe the way she does as she respects my right to choose what religion is right for me. And I'm a conservative Jew, so not a "liberal stream".

mom2binsd

01-10-2010, 01:55 PM

This has been one of the most educational threads (and for the most part free of finger pointing/hurtful statements)...this board is made up of such educated women/men who represent a wide variety of cultural, socioeconomic and religious backgrounds and reading this this morning has been much better than my Sunday paper! I think in this time in our world with so much global unrest it's so important to learn about others!

Thank you ladies!

kijip

01-10-2010, 02:21 PM

You have to understand that for a fundamental Christian to be true to their beliefs, there has to be a right and a wrong. Just as I wouldn't expect a atheist to teach their Children that the Bible is true, you can't expect me to teach mine that it is untrue. Biblically speaking, Jesus said that "He is the way, the truth and the life," and no one can go to heaven but through Him. I know that everyone thinks their choices are right, but for a Christian, our belief systems dictates that there is only one right way. We have to be honest in teaching our children, and this is the truth that we very passionately believe. However, that doesn't mean that I don't accept others or treat them with respect. I do. You will just have to believe me that you would never find me being disrespectful or unkind to someone about their religious beliefs. Doing so would also go against my beliefs.

Conversely, if you accept that there has to be an absolute right and wrong, you must accept that people here have every right to believe that Christianity, exactly as you see it, is wrong. I agree that you have the right to believe as you do and the right to teach your child as you do, but I can still believe that and also that it is a never a way I would would raise a child.

What it boils down to for me is that I believe that speaking for God is a sin greater than all others. If God will make all aware of God, then to me God can do that in many, many different ways and I am no one, and I mean no one, to claim to be wiser than God. Saying that I can discern who is "right" about God is claiming a job that is, in my faith (I was raised in a very religious Christian family with more than weekly church attendance) best left to God alone.

Globetrotter

01-10-2010, 03:30 PM

You have to understand that for a fundamental Christian to be true to their beliefs, there has to be a right and a wrong. Just as I wouldn't expect a atheist to teach their Children that the Bible is true, you can't expect me to teach mine that it is untrue. Biblically speaking, Jesus said that "He is the way, the truth and the life," and no one can go to heaven but through Him. I know that everyone thinks their choices are right, but for a Christian, our belief systems dictates that there is only one right way. We have to be honest in teaching our children, and this is the truth that we very passionately believe. However, that doesn't mean that I don't accept others or treat them with respect. I do. You will just have to believe me that you would never find me being disrespectful or unkind to someone about their religious beliefs. Doing so would also go against my beliefs.

I grew up in the South and had fundamentalist friends. Some of them were quite respectful, but others actively tried to convert me. The most troubling was the president of the international club, who used her position to reach international students. At one point I wondered why, in fact, she was my friend. In her mind, as you said, she truly believed that we were on the wrong path and she felt she was helping us, but I found it very disrespectful. I've been told I'm going to hell or, in one case, a Quaker friend told me I was going into oblivion :) Then I had other friends who were deeply religious but never encroached on my beliefs, at least to my face. I do believe you, Melaine, because I know it's possible. I still have a couple of fundamentalist friends, but we can't go beyond a certain point because the true acceptance isn't there, which is sad to me.

I understand that's how it is, but I have a hard time with that.

mamicka

01-10-2010, 03:34 PM

Sorry about the bold. I don't mean to be yelling. Keyboard is acting up.

If you tell me that MY beliefs are wrong because YOU do not agree with them, then you are disrespecting me and my fundamental right to have beliefs different than yours. No, I don't believe that I'm being disrespectful & I have never told anyone that about their beliefs nor would I. I'm sorry that it feels that way to you. It seems to me that the mere existence of Christianity would then be disrespectful to you. Not sure what I can do about that. It's no different than telling someone who is left handed THEY are wrong. No, they are DIFFERENT. I don't believe it's the same thing at all. There is a huge difference between telling a child someone is wrong and telling a child someone is different than they are and we believe xyz.

This is yet another perfect example of why I will never agree with the fundamentalist christians. I will not allow my child to be disrespected by people who think like this. We are Jewish - we are not "wrong". We have different beliefs than you, but they are still valid and "right" for us.
OK - I think we'll have to agree to disagree. But how is it any different for you to think that what I believe is wrong vs. me thinking what you believe is wrong. If one is disrespectful then they both are, no?

It is totally acceptable for any Jew, Christian, or Muslim to state that their religion is right and others are wrong, if they are being true to what they believe is the authoritative revelation from God. Likewise it is appropriate for them to teach their children as such. Of course, there are liberal streams of all three of these faiths that are more inclusivistic and pluralistic. But being true to the text in the Abrahamic faiths means being true to exclusivity.
Thank you, babybell.

While the Torah states that you should have no other G-d before him, it also states to honor and respect your neighbors. I absolutely respect my neighbors & people of other beliefs. It's also a religion that does not proselytize and "witness". And while Judaism is the "right" religion for me & my family, I would NEVER tell my Mother (who is Christian) SHE IS WRONG. We have doctrinal differences, but I respect her right to believe the way she does as she respects my right to choose what religion is right for me. And I'm a conservative Jew, so not a "liberal stream". It's nice that you & your mother can respect each other's choices. I intend to respect my children's choices at adults as well.

Conversely, if you accept that there has to be an absolute right and wrong, you must accept that people here have every right to believe that Christianity, exactly as you see it, is wrong. I agree that you have the right to believe as you do and the right to teach your child as you do, but I can still believe that and also that it is a never a way I would would raise a child.
I agree. I ask again, how is it any different for you to think that what I believe is wrong vs. me thinking what you believe is wrong. If one is disrespectful then they both are, no? I don't find either one disrespectful.
What it boils down to for me is that I believe that speaking for God is a sin greater than all others. If God will make all aware of God, then to me God can do that in many, many different ways and I am no one, and I mean no one, to claim to be wiser than God. Saying that I can discern who is "right" about God is claiming a job that is, in my faith (I was raised in a very religious Christian family with more than weekly church attendance) best left to God alone.
Teaching my children that other beliefs are wrong is not speaking for God or claiming to be wiser. I'm not sure what else to say to that. No one comes to the Father but by Me, & all that. God can reach people in many different ways, yes, but not against scripture.

I'm not here to have a religious debate. I'm out.

tnrnchick74

01-10-2010, 05:01 PM

Sorry about the bold. I don't mean to be yelling. Keyboard is acting up.

OK - I think we'll have to agree to disagree. But how is it any different for you to think that what I believe is wrong vs. me thinking what you believe is wrong. If one is disrespectful then they both are, no?

If you look back at my quote you will notice I never said you or your beliefs were wrong. I stated I will never agree with them. BIG DIFFERENCE!

salsah

01-10-2010, 05:59 PM

kijip

01-10-2010, 06:02 PM

[QUOTE=mamicka;2590474

Teaching my children that other beliefs are wrong is not speaking for God or claiming to be wiser. I'm not sure what else to say to that. No one comes to the Father but by Me, & all that. God can reach people in many different ways, yes, but not against scripture.
[/QUOTE]

I never said that you were being disrespectful. It seems to me that you are saying in the above that God, who according to scripture is infinite, all-knowing, will make himself known to all, and works in mysterious ways, is limited to a disputed group of interpreted texts and that any who are not culturally aware of this limited set of texts are (insert word for not saved). Only a fraction of the lives lived on this earth since the dawn of humankind have had exposure to this set of beliefs. It seems inconceivable to me that God, if God is as infinite, all-knowing and mysterious as the scripture claims, can only work in a finite and non-mysterious way which is all neatly spelled out in the words of man. Maybe I am wrong (oh so very possible), but at the end of the day I don't think that good people who just are not fundamentalist Christians are lost.

Back to the OP, I think that your child and her teacher can have a mutually respectful and enriching interaction. Her new reconnection to one part of her faith and culture won't change that.

tnrnchick74

01-10-2010, 06:11 PM

You are saying that God, who according to scripture is infinite, all-knowing, will make himself known to all, and works in mysterious ways, is limited to a disputed group of interpreted texts and that any who are not culturally aware of this limited set of texts are (insert word for not saved). Only a fraction of the lives lived on this earth since the dawn of humankind have had exposure to this set of beliefs. It seems inconceivable to me that God, if God is as infinite, all-knowing and mysterious as the scripture claims, can only work in a finite and non-mysterious way which is all neatly spelled out in the words of man. Maybe I am wrong (oh so very possible), but at the end of the day I don't think that good people are lost.
:bowdown::thumbsup::jammin::bowdown::thumbsup::jam min:

MUCH better than I could ever put it!

salsah

01-10-2010, 06:33 PM

TwinFoxes

01-10-2010, 06:42 PM

actually, gelatin is fine if it isn't pork based ("no swine, no wine").

I thought even non-pig animal based gelatin wasn't halal if the animal isn't killed in a halal way? I guess vegetarian gelatin is halal though. (I'm no expert though, please correct me if I'm wrong!)

mommylamb

01-10-2010, 06:46 PM

Just wanted to chime in as another person who thinks it is dangerous to teach your children that other people are wrong if they don't believe what you believe. There's a fine line that you're walking with that.

This discussion just reinforces why I think organized religion can often be problematic (to put it nicely).

gatorsmom

01-10-2010, 07:01 PM

Maybe I am wrong (oh so very possible), but at the end of the day I don't think that good people who just are not fundamentalist Christians are lost.

Very, very well put. Let's hope this is true because Fundamentalist Christianity really hasn't been around that long in the grand scheme of things.

I'm a devout Catholic but I think that what mamicka had as a signature at one time can apply to all of us all the time. "....in the end, it's really only between you and God anyway." Scripture speaks to MY heart a certain way. I try to live that and can talk to others about it in excitement, but the rest is between THEM and GOD. And it's really not my place to say that anyone is going to hell. Only God will be the judge of that. And I think Scripture did have something to say about those who judge....

salsah

01-10-2010, 07:24 PM

I thought even non-pig animal based gelatin wasn't halal if the animal isn't killed in a halal way? I guess vegetarian gelatin is halal though. (I'm no expert though, please correct me if I'm wrong!)

my understanding is that Islam dictates a particular way to slaughter animals in order to minimize emotional/psychological and physical pain to the animal. but Islam also permits anything that is permissible (halal) to Christians and Jews. So some muslims restrict themselves to meat/poultry that is either slaughtered islamicly or is kosher but others will eat any meat/poultry.

the rule does not apply to fish/seafood -- all fish/seafood is permitted.

iirc, in addition to pigs, animals that eat other animals are not allowed.

wellyes

01-10-2010, 07:40 PM

in effort to connect the right vs. wrong debate with the op's questions, and correct some of the statements in other posts, Islam does NOT teach that Christians and Jews are wrong. Islam is the third installment of the Abrahamic religions, all three religions believe in the same God. The Quran is the third book of God (after the Torah (the old testament) and the Bible (the new testament). The teachings of Christianity are built upon the teachings of Judaism, and the teachings of Islam build upon the teachings of Christianity and Judaism. Muslims believe in the same prophets from Adam, to Noah, to Moses, to Jesus, and all those in between. In Islam, the prophet Mohamed is considered the last prophet (in a long line of prophets). So according to Islam, Christianity and Judaism are correct.I don't believe that's true - I am no theologian, just bringing this up as a point of discussion - but I think that in Muslim theology, the Qu'ran is the complete revelation of God that supercedes the Judeo-Christian Bible. They recognize the Old & New Testaments as a part of the faith, but as being written by men years after the fact, translated from various languages, with different books in dispute by different scholars. So it is a very important text but flawed. Whereas the Qu'ran is a complete revelation of God, an original text, and considered a holy book only in its original language.

Some parts of the Christian belief are not compatible with Islam, particularly the idea that of a God with multiple identities (Father and Son). Similarly, the some parts of the Christian belief system are not compatible with Judaism - the covenant between God and the Jews being an obvious one.

Again I am NOT a theologian, and am not trying to emphasize difference either. I am not of faith myself. I just find religion fascinating, and am talking about my understanding in a hope to learn more. :)

salsah

01-10-2010, 08:33 PM

I don't believe that's true - I am no theologian, just bringing this up as a point of discussion - but I think that in Muslim theology, the Qu'ran is the complete revelation of God that supercedes the Judeo-Christian Bible. They recognize the Old & New Testaments as a part of the faith, but as being written by men years after the fact, translated from various languages, with different books in dispute by different scholars. So it is a very important text but flawed. Whereas the Qu'ran is a complete revelation of God, an original text, and considered a holy book only in its original language.

Some parts of the Christian belief are not compatible with Islam, particularly the idea that of a God with multiple identities (Father and Son). Similarly, the some parts of the Christian belief system are not compatible with Judaism - the covenant between God and the Jews being an obvious one.

Again I am NOT a theologian, and am not trying to emphasize difference either. I am not of faith myself. I just find religion fascinating, and am talking about my understanding in a hope to learn more. :)

you are right. certain aspects of each religion differ and sometimes even conflict. the old and new testaments in their original forms are accepted in islam to be correct and true, it is the changes in them that were made over time that are not accepted. as such, islam accepts Christianity and judaism, as religions, as a whole, and does not view them as wrong, maybe just not complete or flawed?

gatorsmom

01-10-2010, 11:11 PM

This discussion just reinforces why I think organized religion can often be problematic (to put it nicely).

Nothing in this world is perfect. Organized religion can also bring about unbelievably wonderful results (to put it mildly! :) )

ha98ed14

01-11-2010, 01:28 AM

Another poster mentioned that if her DD questioned the headscarf, she would tell her daughter that woman's religion is wrong/false. What does that teach your child? You should teach your child that all religions are different and that everyone has different beliefs. Learn what you can about other people in the world -- it's the only way not to pass ignorance on.

I'm the one who said it, and I know that my thinking on this subject is downright ignorant and backward. It's a gut reaction, untempered by my education and experiences and commitment to diversity.

What I meant was that if my DD was asking me in depth questions about why a woman she knows/ sees often is now covering herself up, the natural extension of that is, "Mommy, do I have to wear that when I grow up?" My answer would be no, and that anyone (person or religion) teaching that women need to wear any more coverings (i.e. clothes) than men is wrong. I hope that clarifies it a bit. But, given that it probably was an ignorant thing to say, I'll edit.

ha98ed14

01-11-2010, 01:47 AM

Sorry to get so technical here--I find the confluence of religion and culture fascinating! Another person mentioned female genital mutilation as part of Muslim tradition, but really it's an older cultural practice that coincides with Islam in some regions and which Islam is sometimes used to justify!

Exactly what I was trying to say. It may not be a part of the religion itself, but there is not any active campaign against it. It's condoned, and to me that is pretty heinous. The overall poor track record for how this religious tradition treats women and girls, even if it is only by condoning pre-existing cultural practices, is pretty horrible. This is the same "religious teaching" of the group in power in Afghanistan that made it illegal to teach women to read and prohibited girls from going to school. When some brave girls or families sent their children to school, they were doused with acid by the religious police.

If you think I am making more of an issue that is really there, read this. It made the NYT just yesterday: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/opinion/10kristof.html

gatorsmom

01-11-2010, 03:39 AM

Exactly what I was trying to say. It may not be a part of the religion itself, but there is not any active campaign against it. It's condoned, and to me that is pretty heinous. The overall poor track record for how this religious tradition treats women and girls, even if it is only by condoning pre-existing cultural practices, is pretty horrible. This is the same "religious teaching" of the group in power in Afghanistan that made it illegal to teach women to read and prohibited girls from going to school. When some brave girls or families sent their children to school, they were doused with acid by the religious police.

If you think I am making more of an issue that is really there, read this. It made the NYT just yesterday: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/opinion/10kristof.html

I read the link. I dont' agree with everything he is saying here but I"m too tired to get into it.

kijip

01-11-2010, 03:53 AM

If you think I am making more of an issue that is really there, read this. It made the NYT just yesterday: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/opinion/10kristof.html

Thanks for the link to that article.

babybell

01-11-2010, 06:47 AM

you are right. certain aspects of each religion differ and sometimes even conflict. the old and new testaments in their original forms are accepted in islam to be correct and true, it is the changes in them that were made over time that are not accepted. as such, islam accepts Christianity and judaism, as religions, as a whole, and does not view them as wrong, maybe just not complete or flawed?

Islam teaches that Allah revealed himself first in "Judaism" and then "Christianity" but man changed their respective Scriptures over time and now they are flawed (if they are flawed, they are wrong, essentially). For example, Muslims don't believe that Paul's letters in the New Testament are divine Scripture; they are simply man-composed letters.

Jews and Christians have a higher "status", so to speak, in Islam ("people of the book"). But this does not mean that according to Islam they are going to heaven when they die. Someone earlier stated that Islam teaches that anyone can go to heaven. Sure, anyone can get to heaven if they profess that Allah is the one true God and Mohammad is the prophet of Allah... which is the shahadah, the profession of faith that is the cornerstone of Islamic faith. There are other requirements, but this is major. Islam, at its core, is a religion of exclusivity.

hellokitty

01-11-2010, 09:43 AM

I grew up in the South and had fundamentalist friends. Some of them were quite respectful, but others actively tried to convert me. The most troubling was the president of the international club, who used her position to reach international students. At one point I wondered why, in fact, she was my friend. In her mind, as you said, she truly believed that we were on the wrong path and she felt she was helping us, but I found it very disrespectful. I've been told I'm going to hell or, in one case, a Quaker friend told me I was going into oblivion :) Then I had other friends who were deeply religious but never encroached on my beliefs, at least to my face. I do believe you, Melaine, because I know it's possible. I still have a couple of fundamentalist friends, but we can't go beyond a certain point because the true acceptance isn't there, which is sad to me.

I understand that's how it is, but I have a hard time with that.

I feel exactly the same about this topic as you do. As a kid, I was basically being told by lots of ppl that I was going to hell b/c I was not chrisitian. Well, those experiences have totally put me off to the christian religion all together, b/c I have recieved more horrible judgement from these, "christians" more than anyone else. Now as an adult, we live what seems like the bible belt of the midwest and we stick out like sore thumbs (we are UU, and honestly I am surprised there is even a UU church here, it's no surprise that our UU church covers a huge geographical region b/c there are not enough ppl to have more than one congregation). I do have friends who are fundamentalists, but like you said, our friendship is not as deep as it could be, b/c the true acceptance of me from them is not there. It is really hard for me sometimes. They expect me to accept them, BUT they do not offer the same respect back to me. Every time I let my guard down, they try to recruit me again and then when they start bashing gay ppl and obama, I just have to change the topic, b/c I don't want to get into a debate with them over it knowing that our views on religion and politics are at the opposite spectrum.

Melaine

01-11-2010, 10:50 AM

You guys do realize that you are judging the Christians on this board based on other "Christians" you have met, right? You understand that what you are doing is exactly what everyone would criticize if it involved other religions? This is religious profiling and discrimination, IMO. You are taking a specific example from your life and applying your feelings about it broadly to everyone else who goes by the name Christian. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences, but you shouldn't allow it to color your treatment of others.

Just to clarify, I regret using the word "fundamental" in my post, as it was obviously taken to mean something very different. "Fundamentalist" has become a very derisive word and I've never referred to myself as a Fundamentalist, only a conservative Christian who holds to the fundamental truths of the Bible. "Fundamentalist" has been used to describe many whose actions I would never condone (bombing of abortion clinics, for example) so I just wanted to clear that difference up.

Globetrotter

01-11-2010, 12:37 PM

You guys do realize that you are judging the Christians on this board based on other "Christians" you have met, right?

Um, that's not true. I have had bad experiences with some "fundamentalist" Christians, but I never claimed they were all the same!! On the contrary, as I mentioned, some have been respectful. And more importantly, I am not going to tell my kids that they are "Wrong" because their beliefs are different from ours or because I've had some bad experiences.

mikeys_mom

01-11-2010, 12:59 PM

I thought even non-pig animal based gelatin wasn't halal if the animal isn't killed in a halal way? I guess vegetarian gelatin is halal though. (I'm no expert though, please correct me if I'm wrong!)

Here is an article that clears up most of the confusion on kosher gelatin.

http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/common/article/the_fascinating_story_of_kosher_gelatin_or_how_a_p roduct_from_beef_can_be_u/

ha98ed14

01-11-2010, 02:04 PM

I completely agree with this. I think setting it up as a right and wrong can lead to stereotyping, discrimination and maybe even hate. All for something that really doesn't have a right and wrong in my book- just differences.

To clarify, and I tried to explain this in a post up-thread, my problem is not what they believe about God. It's about how that religious tradition condones (and in some places, exercises) the mistreatment of women. *THAT* is wrong and I am pretty sure most of you would agree with me. In my mind, telling women they need to wear more coverings (i.e. clothing) than men is a slippery slope down the path of isolating, controlling and abusing women.

In my mind, religion is about cosmology: human beings' place in the universe, relationship with the Creator (if there is one), way to understand the problem of suffering and that the world is not a just place (Bad things happen to good people), how to live a moral life, and finally what happens after you die. That is what religion, organized or otherwise, is about. It is a personal belief that one inherits or arrives at or both.

A PP said you cannot prove a certain religion is true. Absolutely agree. But I think it can be proven from the perspective of moral laws that any religious tradition which condones or advocates the mistreatment of women is perpetuating lies. By insisting that "it's just different," you are really just avoiding the idea of an absolute truth. But I think there is an absolute truth in the form of a moral law or code that is common to most world religions. Even young children have a basic, innate understanding of justice. It's why they yell, "It's not fair!" We don't go around teaching our kids, "Ok, DC, life will always be fair, so yell out if you see an injustice." If you are an atheist or agnostic, you cannot condone the mistreatment of people, especially not based on their gender, if you adhere to the common moral code found in most major world religions. If you are a believer in a Judeo Christian representation of God, you cannot condone the mistreatment of another person because he or she too is made in the image of God. I don't know about many Eastern religious traditions, but my limited understanding of Buddhism is that it is a pacifist tradition.

Anyway, now I am rambling, but what this discussion comes down to in my mind is whether or not we are willing to tell our children that there is an absolute truth.

mommylamb

01-11-2010, 02:38 PM

I think the issue comes down to choice. I agree that if women are forced to wear a certain garment that this is showing inequality. But, I think a lot of women feel comfortable wearing clothing that has a religious back drop. Like in the OP, the woman in question told the OP's DC that wearing the hajib made her feel happy. I see nothing sexist in that.

StantonHyde

01-11-2010, 03:30 PM

I highly suggest that everyone interested in this topic--Islam, treatment of women, etc read the book "Three Cups of Tea" by Greg Mortensen. It is an amazing book about a man who has set up a foundation to build schools in Pakistan--with the specific proviso that girls be educated. It is a lovely exploration of what Islam actually teaches about educating women, how Islam can be used to exclude girls, and fathers who just want the best opportunities for their families.

As a Christian, I don't like getting lumped with people who tell others they are going to hell. (I had to crack up about the person who was told by a Quaker they were going to oblivion. As a traditional Quaker, I am going to assume that was someone from the "evangelical" form of Quakerism. I have never even heard that term.) So, if someone was Muslim, I am sure they don't want to get lumped in with jihadists.

I think a universal, moral truth is that we owe it to other people to get to know them as individuals--not just as moms, or accountants, or christians, etc etc. I face this challenge quite a bit living in Utah. There are many assumptions that get made about people who are Mormons and people who are not. I may not agree with many of the party line statements from various religions--the Pope on birth control, the President of the LDS church on the place of women, the Archbishop of Canterbury on gay priests. BUT I almost always can find something in common with my neighbors, co-workers etc. I count among my friends: evangelicals, Mormons, Catholics, non-believers, and probably lots of others that I don't know because I don't discuss religion with them. I am biased, I suppose, by the Quaker teaching that it is our duty to "seek out the light of God in every human being". But that is key to me--seeking out what makes us human.

ha98ed14

01-11-2010, 04:16 PM

I am biased, I suppose, by the Quaker teaching that it is our duty to "seek out the light of God in every human being". But that is key to me--seeking out what makes us human.

I really like this idea. I heard about it from my sister who went to a Quaker boarding (high) school and then to Earlham College. I will look for that book. Thanks for the reference!

citymama

01-11-2010, 04:52 PM

Anyway, now I am rambling, but what this discussion comes down to in my mind is whether or not we are willing to tell our children that there is an absolute truth.

There is no way I am telling my DD there is an absolute truth, religiously speaking. I will try and teach her the difference between right and wrong behavior in ways that are common to all religions - you don't lie, cheat, steal, oppress. I am alternately polytheistic, sometimes agnostic, not a follower of organized religion but deeply spiritual person who believes that individuals can find their own true path to spiritual actualization. It may not be my path, and don't tell me what mine should be! I am respectful of other peoples' religions and their Gods, even though I might not approve of all the practices (such as intolerance of homosexuality, oppression of women, hierarchies of caste or class). Most of the time the abhorrent practices are some kind of distortion of the true meaning of the religion, in my experience.

I will try and teach my children tolerance, respect and open-mindedness when it comes to religion and everything else. I will not tell them there is just one God and that's ours - sorry, there is just no way.

And yes, I am so going to burn in hell. Fortunately I don't believe in hell other than the kind we make for ourselves! ;)

Interesting discussion, y'all!

(PS StantonHyde, I agree with you re Quakers - have yet to meet one who is an intolerant fundamentalist!)

salsah

01-11-2010, 05:04 PM

To clarify, and I tried to explain this in a post up-thread, my problem is not what they believe about God. It's about how that religious tradition condones (and in some places, exercises) the mistreatment of women. *THAT* is wrong and I am pretty sure most of you would agree with me. In my mind, telling women they need to wear more coverings (i.e. clothing) than men is a slippery slope down the path of isolating, controlling and abusing women.

again, you (as many of us do) are confusing cultural traditions with religious traditions. the facts about women in islam are actually really interesting because so much is contrary to popular belief. Islam does not condone the mistreatment of women and specifically prohibits the things that you mentioned in previous posts (such as female mutilation). in a historical context, islam improved the state of women, granting them more rights and protection. at the time that islam was introduced, killing baby girls was common practice. islam prohibited it. islam islam granted women the right to vote at a time when women had no vote. (women in america were not allowed to vote until only relatively recently.) islam prohibited the then common practices of arranged/forced marriages and dowries. there have been far more women in high political (and military and business) positions in the islamic world than in the western world (and long before it was acceptable for women in the western world).

as for the head covering, men and women alike are asked (but not forced) to dress modestly (the full burka (sp?) covering the face thing is cultural and not part of the religion). some muslim men chose to dress as modestly as the women.

it is important to note that they dress the way they do by choice just as it is their choice whether or not they want to follow that religion.

salsah

01-11-2010, 05:11 PM

Most of the time the abhorrent practices are some kind of distortion of the true meaning of the religion, in my experience.

that seems to be the case too often (for all religions). i think that is why i was so drawn in to the religions studies department. at first i dreaded having to take religious studies courses but when i did, i found them so interesting (and ended up taking more than the required courses) because i loved learning the truth about religions, in their original forms. religion is so heavily mixed with cultural influences, it isn't always easy to separate them. and so much of what i knew about different religions was limited by what i learned from individuals who practice the religion (even if very differently from the next person who practices that religion) and the media (which we all know isn't always a reliable source of info).

salsah

01-11-2010, 05:14 PM

I read the link. I dont' agree with everything he is saying here but I"m too tired to get into it.

:yeahthat: but is is just an opinion piece.

egoldber

01-11-2010, 05:16 PM

In my mind, telling women they need to wear more coverings (i.e. clothing) than men is a slippery slope down the path of isolating, controlling and abusing women.

But all societies (and religions) have codes for how people dress. In US society, it's OK for men to be topless in public, but not women.

Wearing a head covering is no different culturally, IMO, than telling women you need to wear make-up, high heels, shave your legs and color your hair.

salsah

01-11-2010, 05:36 PM

Islam teaches that Allah revealed himself first in "Judaism" and then "Christianity" but man changed their respective Scriptures over time and now they are flawed (if they are flawed, they are wrong, essentially). For example, Muslims don't believe that Paul's letters in the New Testament are divine Scripture; they are simply man-composed letters.

Jews and Christians have a higher "status", so to speak, in Islam ("people of the book"). But this does not mean that according to Islam they are going to heaven when they die. Someone earlier stated that Islam teaches that anyone can go to heaven. Sure, anyone can get to heaven if they profess that Allah is the one true God and Mohammad is the prophet of Allah... which is the shahadah, the profession of faith that is the cornerstone of Islamic faith. There are other requirements, but this is major. Islam, at its core, is a religion of exclusivity.

i'm 99% sure of this, i may have to go into the garage and dig up my books though to confirm). Islam teaches that anyone, even if not muslim, can go to heaven. all babies and children go directly to heaven. people who do not know about islam (either because they died before islam was revealed or because they never had the opportunity to learn about islam) can go to heaven depending on their actions and intentions. still, people who know about islam but do not practice islam can go to heaven depending on their actions and intentions. the evidence for this is a story about the prophet mohamed telling his followers that his "non-believer" neighbor will go to heaven because even though she was not muslim, she was good to her neighbors. while his muslim neighbor will not go to heaven because he did not treat his neighbors well. (that was another one of the surprising things that stood out in my mind, so i still remember it 10 yrs later).

babybell

01-11-2010, 06:17 PM

i'm 99% sure of this, i may have to go into the garage and dig up my books though to confirm). Islam teaches that anyone, even if not muslim, can go to heaven. all babies and children go directly to heaven. people who do not know about islam (either because they died before islam was revealed or because they never had the opportunity to learn about islam) can go to heaven depending on their actions and intentions. still, people who know about islam but do not practice islam can go to heaven depending on their actions and intentions. the evidence for this is a story about the prophet mohamed telling his followers that his "non-believer" neighbor will go to heaven because even though she was not muslim, she was good to her neighbors. while his muslim neighbor will not go to heaven because he did not treat his neighbors well. (that was another one of the surprising things that stood out in my mind, so i still remember it 10 yrs later).

Check out surah 5:65 (http://www.quran.com/5) (and surrounding verses for the context).
"And if only the People of the Scripture had believed and feared Allah, We would have removed from them their misdeeds and admitted them to Gardens of Pleasure."

Meaning, the People of the Scripture apparently do not believe and fear Allah (though they are monotheistic) and are not gaining entrance into the Gardens of Pleasure (heaven). This is one of many examples in the Qur'an about this subject.

niccig

01-11-2010, 06:22 PM

again, you (as many of us do) are confusing cultural traditions with religious traditions.

And the religion is used to justify the continuation of the cultural tradition. People will look for passages in religious texts that can be interrupted to justify what they want..

And this is not just in Islam, but all religions. I studied Hinduism and Buddhisim and there are many examples of the religious text being used as proof for a cultural tradition. The first that comes to mind is the practice of sati. It is a cultural tradition, and Hindu texts were used to justify it - the chaste widow, who loves her husband and follows him on to the funeral pyre. It had nothing to do with the religion, it was a cultural practice that started around 400AD and Hinduism dates back much earlier than that, More information here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_%28practice%29

I also remember from Medieval Europe history classes that women were not allowed into the Catholic Church during menstruation - and religious texts were used to justify this prohibition - culturally menstruation was seen as being unclean. No where did the Bible say you can't go into a church when you have your period.

Buddhism - original texts say do not worship an image. Then there was a split among Buddhists and there are 2 schools - Theravada Buddhism does not worship an image, Mahayana Buddhism does. There are other differences between the two.

What I enjoyed about religion classes at college was studying the religion from the original texts and then seeing how it was/is practiced. Over the centuries and depending on the location and who interprets it, the religion is different from the original teachings.

I know women who are Muslim, who are educated and drive and do wear the hijab. They abhor the Taliban and fundamentalist practices. I will NOT tell DS these women are wrong to wear the hajib or cover up if they choose to do so - they believe in this expression of modesty. We don't share the same beliefs, and I will tell DS that. I will tell DS that the Taliban's attorcities against women getting an education or the practice of genital-mutilaion is WRONG.

Covering the head if they choose to do so, is their choice. We have an elderly family friend who is a retired nun and she wanted to continue to wear the wimple, she thought it wasn't right to not wear it. She didn't wear it, as not allowed to, but she says it's just not right to not wear it - it's what she was used to and believed in.

salsah

01-11-2010, 06:52 PM

But all societies (and religions) have codes for how people dress. In US society, it's OK for men to be topless in public, but not women.

Wearing a head covering is no different culturally, IMO, than telling women you need to wear make-up, high heels, shave your legs and color your hair.

that is such an interesting perspective! i never thought about it that way, but i guess sexism is hiding everywhere.

babybell

01-11-2010, 06:55 PM

I also remember from Medieval Europe history classes that women were not allowed into the Catholic Church during menstruation - and religious texts were used to justify this prohibition - culturally menstruation was seen as being unclean. No where did the Bible say you can't go into a church when you have your period.

This was probably because of Old Testament laws concerning women, ritual purity, and the Temple. Women were considered ritually unclean during menstruation and therefore not allowed to enter the Temple. See Leviticus 15:19, 24 (these don't specifically mention the Temple, but uncleanness was forbidden in it).

salsah

01-11-2010, 07:26 PM

Check out surah 5:65 (http://www.quran.com/5) (and surrounding verses for the context).
"And if only the People of the Scripture had believed and feared Allah, We would have removed from them their misdeeds and admitted them to Gardens of Pleasure."

Meaning, the People of the Scripture apparently do not believe and fear Allah (though they are monotheistic) and are not gaining entrance into the Gardens of Pleasure (heaven). This is one of many examples in the Qur'an about this subject.

i think (i could be wrong, but this is my understanding) that you are taking this out of context. this part seems to be talking about how people strayed away from their religions and did wrong. (this part isn't trying to address the issue of salvation.) it is referring to only those "people of scriptures" who did not fear and obey God and strayed from the original scriptures, it is not referring to all people or even all "people of scriptures". i looked at the yusuf ali translation (http://www.islam101.com/quran/yusufAli/QURAN/5.htm) (we were told that is the most accurate) and it seemed clearer to me when i read that. but, who knows? i wouldn't be surprised if this is another one of those issues that even the religious scholars debate.

babybell

01-11-2010, 07:31 PM

but, who knows? i wouldn't be surprised if this is another one of those issues that even the religious scholars debate.

Yes, that's probably true. Religious scholars love to debate lots of things. :) So much of this is a matter of interpretation, which is itself a debated thing within Islam (that is, who gets to interpret).

Globetrotter

01-11-2010, 09:12 PM

And the religion is used to justify the continuation of the cultural tradition. People will look for passages in religious texts that can be interrupted to justify what they want..

This is what I find. People use religion to incite and further their causes, even if there isn't really a connection.

I also want to make it VERY clear that I do not feel that those fundamentalist Christians I've encountered represent all Christians. I have many Christian friends and this has rarely been an issue (being approached to convert) after I left my home state. I do have a problem with absolute right and wrong IRT religious beliefs and the need for conversion, and I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone who does.

And yes, I still remember that very odd conversation with my Quaker friend. We were all hanging out and having a frank discussion about religion. My roomate asked one of our fundamentalist friends if she thought we were going to hell (yes), then I asked our Quaker friend and I could see he was struggling with the answer. he finally told me he thought I would go to oblivion, which I had never heard of before! So there you have it.. that was a long time ago and he had converted to Quaker from Southern Baptist (maybe that explains it?).

BTW, we all remained good friends, though I think NOW I would have a hard time with it.

Globetrotter

01-11-2010, 09:25 PM

But I think it can be proven from the perspective of moral laws that any religious tradition which condones or advocates the mistreatment of women is perpetuating lies. By insisting that "it's just different," you are really just avoiding the idea of an absolute truth. But I think there is an absolute truth in the form of a moral law or code that is common to most world religions.

Ah, but see, that's the thing. In some Muslim countries, it is the cultural norm or even a requirement to cover (the most extreme form being the burqua), in others hijab is either required or optional (depending on the family and social norms) and in some it is rare to cover. There is a wide spectrum, and all these people practice Islam.

I used to be very much against it, but then I've gotten to know Muslim women on a personal level and come to realize it is often a choice. That's why I feel it's important to talk about these things, even if it's uncomfortable at times. Now in some countries like Saudi, it is mandatory. That is a case where religion is used to suppress women, and that bothers me deeply, but I would fault the political leaders and extremist politicians for using religion to further their cause.

ohiomom

01-11-2010, 10:39 PM

I grew up with Amish as next door neighbors in a very rural community and now live in the suburbs. I had relatively recent realization that while I do not agree w/much of the Amish faith/practices, I do not bat an eye when I see someone in Amish dress. I RARELY see headscarves or more and they seem oppressive to me. The Muslim women I worked with never wore head scarves to work, so little familiarity with the practice. It was one of my "ah hah, I'm grown up now" moments when I realized that about myself.

Anyhow, thank you to all posters. I've learned a lot reading here.

nrp

01-11-2010, 10:43 PM

I’m a little late to the party, I’ve been following the thread but didn’t have the time to sit down to reply until now. Pardon me if I’m at all repetitive… but I did want to chime in. For the PP (citymama, I think?) that said that they would never teach their DC that there is an absolute truth w/r/t religion, that makes sense if you don’t believe/aren’t convinced that God exists. But for those of us that do, the tenets of our faith are facts just as any other.

I believe that Scripture is true. I believe God created the Earth. I believe that Jesus was a real person who was fully human and fully divine. I believe he was crucified, and that by Christ’s death God provided the way for people to be justified through faith in Him. I believe these things are facts, just as I believe that 2+2=4. To the extent that others believe something different about these very foundational points, by simple logic I conclude that they are “wrong” – not that they are “bad” people or that they are ignorant, but that they are factually incorrect on this issue. This is not a point that I intend to hammer on with my kids, but they likely will draw that conclusion at some point themselves. At that time (and before), I hope to be able to convey the idea of absolute truth with enough finesse that my kids don’t come away marginalizing persons who hold different beliefs.

In other words, it is my obligation to teach my children to be tolerant of others and respectful of their beliefs, yet at the same time by me teaching them what I believe to be the truth, it necessarily implies that people who believe something that is contradictory are wrong. But an overarching message will be that we live in a great country that allows people the freedom to believe what they choose, and we are very grateful for that freedom.

sads

01-11-2010, 10:56 PM

This is one busy thread :) I didn't read all the response (only got through page 4) but if you still have any questions you're welcome to PM me - I'm Muslim, but don't wear a headscarf. I wouldn't worry about the teacher moving on to a full burqa - even being around the community my whole life, I can probably count on one hand how many women I know who do that.

Someone posted that Islam does recognize Jesus as a prophet, but not at the same level as Muhammad - I'm going to have to disagree with the last part of that. We view all the prophets as equal (but Muhammad as the last prophet), and also believe that Jesus will be the Messiah on the Day of Judgement.

youngmommy

01-11-2010, 11:44 PM

I think it may be important to think about what each religion itself says about this. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are by nature exclusivist (meaning, salvation through their religion alone) according to their religious texts.

Not Judaism.
Jews believe that a person is not excluded from an eternal reward if they are not Jewish.
Non-Jews can obviously be extremely moral and good people, and Jews believe they will be rewarded for that, regardless of their other religious beliefs. In fact, Jews don't proselytize because we don't believe that anyone who isn't Jewish needs to become Jewish. There's a Jewish concept of the "Righteous Gentile" who is bound by the 7 laws of Noah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

Any good Christian or Muslim would be keeping these laws because of their respective religions. Jews see Christianity and Islam as very beneficial to the world in general, in the way that they spread morality and the concept of one God. This is in contrast to a world before the existence of Christianity and Islam, but after Abraham, where there were only Jews and pagans. Whenever a missionary comes to my door I thank him/her for their good work, and send them on their way with a smile.

That's why I'm Jewish, and LOVE Judaism.

youngmommy

01-11-2010, 11:59 PM

No one can prove that their religion is right or wrong -- you believe what you do because you have faith in it.

True, I can't PROVE anything, but after years of research and study, I decided that observant Judaism answers my questions best, and makes the most logical sense. I think God gave us logic for a reason. I don't have much "faith" at all.

I'm just a strangely mathematical and logical person though.
Since I was young I wondered why many/most people would "believe" in a religion just because they were born to parents of that religion. Given the number of religions on Earth, that seems ridiculous to me. I'm not going to just "believe" anything! So when I was old enough I did a bunch of research, and here I am: Orthodox Jewish, and I love it. It was my choice, and I'm happy with it. Sure, it's not prefect, but I'm working within my community of Jews to make us better as a people, rather than throw the baby out with the bath water.

mommy111

01-12-2010, 12:28 AM

Wow, what an AWESOME thread! I've learned a lot from this thread, and also thank you to everyone for being so respectful of each other in this thread.

dhano923

01-12-2010, 12:44 AM

To clarify, and I tried to explain this in a post up-thread, my problem is not what they believe about God. It's about how that religious tradition condones (and in some places, exercises) the mistreatment of women. *THAT* is wrong and I am pretty sure most of you would agree with me. In my mind, telling women they need to wear more coverings (i.e. clothing) than men is a slippery slope down the path of isolating, controlling and abusing women.

As previously mentioned in this thread, Islam does not condone the ill treatment of women. In fact, Islam tells men to respect women as they are the ones who birth them, care for them, and nurture them. It's the extemists who twists the words of the Koran around. There are Christians who do it, Hindus that do it, and people in every religion who do it. Islam does not require women to cover themselves. What it says is to now show yourself in a way that is tempting for men. It is considered a sin for one to think impure thoughts about someone they are not married to.

Islam does not condone the mistreatment of women, but that's what we hear about. Does Christianity condone homophobia? No, but many of the people we see preaching against gay rights are Christian. It's all about portrayal and what is shown to us.

Like I said in my previous post, many muslim women choose to cover themselves, be it just their hair or their full body. It's a choice, especially for women living here in the US. In other countries, it depends. But we as a country can't hold the entire world to our expectations and thoughts. Americans are considered to be provocative and bad influences in many countries. It's the image we've made for ourselves. It's not neccessarily true, but nonetheless it's become a stereotype of how Americans act. Same thing with Muslims -- they are stereotyped as oppressed women and hatred filled men. Not neccessarily true.

gatorsmom

01-12-2010, 01:02 AM

We view all the prophets as equal (but Muhammad as the last prophet), and also believe that Jesus will be the Messiah on the Day of Judgement.

Ok, this is VERY interesting. So, do you believe that Jesus is a prophet? And when you say that he will be the Messiah on the Day of Judgment, does that mean he is the Messiah now? Or, he is only a prophet now but will become the Messiah on the last days? Do all Muslims consider Jesus to be the Messiah? Is that something Mohammed said? And if Muslims believe Jesus will be the Messiah, then why don't we hear more about him from Muslims?

If I offend you in someway, please accept my apologie. But this thread has been so informative and you've just piqued my curiosity more!

citymama

01-12-2010, 01:44 AM

Aarohismom

01-12-2010, 01:54 AM

My faith and I just accept your God to be as true as mine.
This is exactly what I believe and teach my kids.:)

nrp

01-12-2010, 09:50 AM

Happy 2B mommy

01-12-2010, 11:11 AM

I just want to thank Melissa for posting this. ( Although the thread has taken on a whole other life than what I think she expected) It's full of intelligent and diverse opinions (only on page 7) and a really civil discussion.

I am a UU in a small, pretty homogenous, fairly religiously conservative town. I could never get this discussion with my IRL friends and acquintences. Thanks to everyone who has posted

mommy111

01-13-2010, 01:02 AM

Ok, this is VERY interesting. So, do you believe that Jesus is a prophet? And when you say that he will be the Messiah on the Day of Judgment, does that mean he is the Messiah now? Or, he is only a prophet now but will become the Messiah on the last days? Do all Muslims consider Jesus to be the Messiah? Is that something Mohammed said? And if Muslims believe Jesus will be the Messiah, then why don't we hear more about him from Muslims?

If I offend you in someway, please accept my apologie. But this thread has been so informative and you've just piqued my curiosity more!

Lisa, didn't see a reply to this so I thought I would answer, since this is one thing that I do know having lived in many Muslim countries and thus being naturally curious about how Muslims view Christ. Muslims do believe that Jesus (and Moses) are prophets, equal in stature to Mohammad who is also a prophet. The believe Jesus could raise the dead, and many of the other beliefs that Christians have about Jesus. What exactly do you mean by the term 'Messiah'? To me Messiah means anointed King, Savior, and Liberator and muslims believe he is all of those. In muslim societies, Jesus is referred to as Masih (their term for Messiah) However, they do not believe that Jesus is the physical Son of God or God the Son.
They also believe that Jesus will return to liberate and lead all good people in an era of peace. So per muslim teachings, Jesus has been the Messiah in the past, is one now and will be one on the Day of Judgement.
Here is a link that may answer more of your questions, it is somewhat rhetorical at first but the most comprehensive one that I could find online:
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/christ_in_islam.html

ETA: Another link if you have video, he starts with something in Arabic and cracks a joke about 'you thought this was in English didn't you?' and then continues in english http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Flh7epISs4

Aarohismom

01-13-2010, 01:25 AM

To citymama and Aarohismom, what does that mean to you exactly? I ask this totally sincerely. Perhaps it comes down to the Christian (and Jewish and Muslim, and certaintly others) concept of one God, exclusive of all others. That seems to paint me in a corner with respect to acknowledging the "truth" of other Gods. I can teach my kids that others truly believe in their respective faiths, and we should respect that, but that is different to me than saying that their God is "true."

As a Hindu I believe that god is one. We call him by various names. It doesn't matter what address you send your letter to. Whether you mail it to Hindu gods, Jesus, Allah, Buddha or Jehovah, your letter ends up in the same mailbox. The one god always gets the message, no matter what religion you belong to. According to Hinduism whatever form of the divine you worship will use that form to guide you to the supreme being. :)

maestramommy

01-13-2010, 08:32 AM

Wow, I'm going to have to read this whole thread from where I left off. It's gotten so interesting!

But first I have to take care of the kids:p

nrp

01-13-2010, 09:39 AM

As a Hindu I believe that god is one. We call him by various names. It doesn't matter what address you send your letter to. Whether you mail it to Hindu gods, Jesus, Allah, Buddha or Jehovah, your letter ends up in the same mailbox. The one god always gets the message, no matter what religion you belong to. According to Hinduism whatever form of the divine you worship will use that form to guide you to the supreme being. :)

Thanks so much for the explanation. I am learning a lot from this thread, too!

citymama

01-13-2010, 02:56 PM

niccig

01-13-2010, 03:01 PM

As a Hindu I believe that god is one. We call him by various names. It doesn't matter what address you send your letter to. Whether you mail it to Hindu gods, Jesus, Allah, Buddha or Jehovah, your letter ends up in the same mailbox. The one god always gets the message, no matter what religion you belong to. According to Hinduism whatever form of the divine you worship will use that form to guide you to the supreme being. :)

:yeahthat: And this is what we are teaching DS. Different beliefs, different names for god, neither one is right and neither one is wrong.

sads

01-13-2010, 05:41 PM

Lisa, didn't see a reply to this so I thought I would answer, since this is one thing that I do know having lived in many Muslim countries and thus being naturally curious about how Muslims view Christ. Muslims do believe that Jesus (and Moses) are prophets, equal in stature to Mohammad who is also a prophet. The believe Jesus could raise the dead, and many of the other beliefs that Christians have about Jesus. What exactly do you mean by the term 'Messiah'? To me Messiah means anointed King, Savior, and Liberator and muslims believe he is all of those. In muslim societies, Jesus is referred to as Masih (their term for Messiah) However, they do not believe that Jesus is the physical Son of God or God the Son.
They also believe that Jesus will return to liberate and lead all good people in an era of peace. So per muslim teachings, Jesus has been the Messiah in the past, is one now and will be one on the Day of Judgement.
Here is a link that may answer more of your questions, it is somewhat rhetorical at first but the most comprehensive one that I could find online:
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/christ_in_islam.html

ETA: Another link if you have video, he starts with something in Arabic and cracks a joke about 'you thought this was in English didn't you?' and then continues in english http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Flh7epISs4

Thanks for picking up my slack (dealing with a sick toddler, so I just came back on-line) and well said :)

Globetrotter

01-13-2010, 05:56 PM

:yeahthat: And this is what we are teaching DS. Different beliefs, different names for god, neither one is right and neither one is wrong.

:yeahthat: I would also add to my kids, if they ask, is that some people don't believe in God. What matters is that they have good values and are good, honest, kind, caring people. I know in IRL so many "religious" people of ALL faiths who are complete hypocrits. What matters to me is their behavior, not how many poojas (religious ceremonies) they can perform or how many times they go to church or how much they contribute to the temple (and get a plaque for doing so). BTW, I'm not talking about anyone here - just want to make that clear :)

niccig

01-13-2010, 05:59 PM

:yeahthat: And this is what we are teaching DS. Different beliefs, different names for god, neither one is right and neither one is wrong.

OH, I should add that I'm talking about religious beliefs and not cultural practices like what was discussed earlier - genital mutilation or refusing girls to be educated, sati etc. I have no issues with saying those cultural practices are wrong.

youngmommy

01-14-2010, 02:02 AM

:yeahthat: And this is what we are teaching DS. Different beliefs, different names for god, neither one is right and neither one is wrong.

Sadly, I have to beg to differ. It sounds so perfect when it's put that way, but the unfortunate reality is that Catholicism, to name one, teaches that a person can only achieve salvation through Jesus. I would LOVE to be able to tell my kids that everyone's religion is just as correct as everyone else's, but I can't teach my kids that Catholicism is correct when they teach that anyone who isn't Christian will not be saved. (Not to pick on Catholics at all, it's just one example.)

The alternative, which I try to espouse to with my kids, is to teach them that there are many good people on the planet who do good things, and God knows who they are and will reward their good deeds.

Judaism supports this concept, so while a Christian would have to tell their children that I'm going to he!! in order to stay true to their church teachings, I can tell my kids that you will all receive eternal reward based on your personal growth and good deeds, regardless of your religion, and my Rabbi will agree with me!

sariana

01-14-2010, 02:53 AM

The alternative, which I try to espouse to with my kids, is to teach them that there are many good people on the planet who do good things, and God knows who they are and will reward their good deeds.

The last book of the Chronicles of Narnia series addresses this point. There is a character who was worshipping the "wrong" god for the right reasons, so he is rewarded along with those who were supporting Aslan all along. I've always really liked that scene.

Lately DS has been asking a lot of questions about Heaven, angels, and G-d. Apparently he asked his teacher about it today, too. I have a lot of trouble answering him because DH is opposed to teaching about "myths," and so I have to be very specific that "some" people believe X, Y, and Z. DS decided that he believes in G-d and angels because that way he won't be lonely when he is alone in his room. (He also is afraid of the dark.) I think that is really sweet and the voice of an innocent finding his way to Faith.