UPDATE in #17: None of your links, videos, etc. convinced DH

[sariana]

DH still wants to turn DD FF when she turns 2 later this month. He says I agreed to that after he compromised and let me keep her RF for an extra year.

First, I NEVER agreed to that. I said let's see what happens when she's two. (I'll admit I probably said it to buy time, but don't tell him that.)

Second, it wasn't an extra year, as she didn't even hit 20 lbs. until she was almost 2 1/2. So if he agreed to an extra year, we should keep her RF until at least May. (She's only about 25 lbs. right now.)

Third, he isn't even here, so WHY DOES HE CARE?

I sent him links from here and from car-seat.org, but he insisted that none of you is an expert in physics and that he knows better.

Maybe this post belongs in the BP. Moderators, feel free to move it.

[AshleyAnn]

If he isn't here how will he know if you did or didnot flip the seat? Does he have a reason he wants to turn her? I'd ask him to provide me with some info that proves FF is safer than RF - you provided your research now its his turn.

[luza]

He says I agreed to that after he compromised and let me keep her RF for an extra year
....
Third, he isn't even here, so WHY DOES HE CARE?

You haven't said anything about why he is so adamant about turning her FF, especially so young, which makes me think he is just being controlling. Is he like this in other areas too? Just something to think about.

As a PP said, if I were driving I'd install the car seat the way I think is safest.

[jgenie]

Sorry your DH is giving you grief about RF.



As a PP said, if I were driving I'd install the car seat the way I think is safest.

I agree with this especially if your DH doesn't have to deal with getting your DD in and out of the carseat.

[eml569]

This is something that I wouldn't back down on. I would have no problem just refusing and telling him that it isn't going to happen. The fact that it makes YOU uncomfortable should be enough to continue RF your very small LO. Just because she is hitting an age milestone doesn't mean she's ready. I think there are certain things that are non-negotiable....and in my world, this is one of them. Does HE have a degree in physics? Sometimes you have to defer to the experts. Not to infer anything, but his attitude on this sounds really controlling and kind of scary. Stand your ground momma!

[DebbieJ]

Why does he care so much?

I would stand my ground and not turn her. 25 lbs is WAY too little to be FF.

[KrisM]

I sent him links from here and from car-seat.org, but he insisted that none of you is an expert in physics and that he knows better.



Just to double check - he IS an expert in physics? And his physics expertise tells him that FF is somehow safer?

Stand your ground and leave her as is.

[rizzo0904]

The videos worked on my dh. My problem is my 15 month old is already 32lbs, 9oz and I just hope he slows down so I can keep him RF'ing until at least 2.

If you are the one driving your child around, why does dh care so much?

[Joolsplus2]

The videos worked on my dh. My problem is my 15 month old is already 32lbs, 9oz and I just hope he slows down so I can keep him RF'ing until at least 2.

If you are the one driving your child around, why does dh care so much?

Whoa, big baby! Did you know there are some seats that go to 40 and 45 pounds rearfacing now? And at least one of them is very affordable (Graco My Ride 65 in Deco is 129 at BRU right now, 109 if you have the coupon for $20 off that was in the last mailer...just giving an example, it doesn't have to be the full price Radian XTSL for $299 or anything).

:)

[jjordan]

I'm also wondering if he is an expert in physics... I'm sure there is a CPST somewhere that actually IS an expert in physics. Depending on the criteria for "expert," I may qualify.

At any rate, I agree with the others, stand your ground, especially if he isn't even around.

[JBaxter]

Well If HE wants to reinstall the seat each time HE drivers her let him... YOU on the other hand get good at rf installs. Tell him if even ONE hair on her tiny head gets messed up while he is driving there will be hell to pay.

[elliput]

Plain and simple. He is not here. Keep the seat RF until he is able to do it himself.

[sariana]

Just to double check - he IS an expert in physics? And his physics expertise tells him that FF is somehow safer?

Unfortunately, yes, he is. Physics, engineering, and auto design. And when he is adamant about something, 99.99% of the time, he is right.

He says that none of the articles gave evidence as to why RF is safer past age 2 (which DD will be in a week). He says that our seat doesn't install as well RF, that it is much more solid FF because of the tether. He says that the studies citing Scandinavia are comparing RF tethered seats to FF seats and that since ours is not tethered RF, the comparison is not valid.

Most of the above is true, as far as I can tell. The articles I was able to find mostly did promote RF until age 2 but were vague on the hard data for past age 2.

He also says the Car Seat Tech certification (sorry, I don't know the real term offhand) is fake and not backed up by any knowledge of the laws of physics. I highly doubt this is true but don't have any evidence to disprove it (such as who provides the certification and what the requirements are).

He had some other reasonable concerns that I was not able to rebut, as well as the standard unreasonable ones (I won't be able to interact with her--oh noes!).

He also seems much more concerned about his car that about our daughter. I will be driving his car while he is deployed because it doesn't make sense to pay for two cars while he is gone.

As for the comments that he isn't here and doesn't have a say, well, it just doesn't work that way. I'm not going to flat-out lie to him, and if I tell him I have her RF, it will lead to an argument. That's not exactly ideal when we may not see each other again until November or December.

Thanks for all your input. I'll keep working on him.

And I may be off on her weight. I think she's grown a lot in the last month or so and may be closer to 30 lbs than I realize. We'll find out at her 2-year check-up in a couple of weeks. (BTW, our ped supports ERF, but DH doesn't trust her knowledge of physics either. :rolleyes:)

[Joolsplus2]

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?p=1129602

That isn't you, is it, OP?

[MontrealMum]

He says that none of the articles gave evidence as to why RF is safer past age 2 (which DD will be in a week).

Well, it sounds like he's the type of person that if he wants to be right, he's going to be and you're just not going to be able to change his mind :(. His expertise, others' expertise, and anything else be dammed KWIM? But if you're looking for the reasoning on why to rearface you might want to focus on the Anatomy and Physiology side of things. As in, how your daughter is put together. I believe it has quite a lot to do with bone formation and the strain a crash puts on unformed, younger bones.

ETA: Not to belabor this, but why does your DH thinks there's noone here with expertise in Physics? When we do these threads about what did you major in, or what was/is your profession I am always struck by how many women there are here with training in the hard sciences. One has actually responded upthread ;)

[sariana]

That isn't you, is it, OP?

No, but that's kind of funny (ironic, I mean).

We're not needing to buy a new seat. DS will be moving to a booster by the time he turns 6 this summer (maybe sooner--I think he grew, too!), and DD will get his Marathon. (We have 2, so when we get a new car, we'll have a backup there, too.)

I would like to RF her as long as possible, but "as long as possible" for me is to the limit of the MA (33 lbs, right?). I think the inherent danger of being in a vehicle in the first place outweighs the benefit of RF much past that, and the environmental impact of replacing seats over and over is more guilt than I want right now. Since DD is small, I'm thinking the MA will last her FF at least as long as it has lasted her brother, who is longer and leaner. So we'll keep her harnessed, even if it will be FF.

[sariana]

UPDATE: He called this afternoon, and the first thing he said was to apologize for yesterday. We didn't discuss the issue further today, as it is a non-issue until I drive his car again. (I drove it yesterday because it can't just sit in the garage. He doesn't have a problem keeping her RF in my car until we turn it in. But that is going to be very soon.)

[sariana]

Just another irony: I actually know two families IRL who kept their LOs RF until age 2. In one family, the dad wanted to turn the boy earlier, but the mom held her ground. They turned him at age 2, but that is still better than most people I know.

In the second family, the dad said he wanted to keep his DD RF longer, but it just was impractical. He seemed torn by his decision. He actually was present when I was having the argument with DH (we were at the park at a get-together for our older kids), and so I asked him about the reasons for his choices. It was quite refreshing to have a real-life conversation about the benefits of RF (not to knock our online interactions, but you know it's not quite the same!).

[Joolsplus2]

My dd's didn't hit the limits of the Marathon till 4.5 and 3, so I'd say that's more than practical and fine. Why isn't your MA tethered RF, though?

[KrisM]

Okay, so he's a physics and engineering major. I only have degrees in engineering.

Did he actually crash test these and study the forces on the body? I'm guessing no. So, why does he disbelieve the engineers at Britax who say it's safer, from their testing, to have the MA tethered rear-facing?

And to me, as an engineer or not, watching the videos of a head whipping forward while the body is attached to the seat (FF) vs. the entire body being craddled by the carseat (RF) just has some common sense to it.

Picture yourself in a vehicle. Get slammed hard from behind and you'll have some whiplash maybe, but most of your body will be okay. Crash into something while driving forward, and your entire upper body will be sore from hitting the seatbelt, airbag, etc. We don't have airbags in our seats to protect our back, but we do have them in the steering wheel to protect our front because it is the forward motion that is worse for anyone because they aren't fully against a seat.

Even if he doesn't ever believe RFing is safer than FFing, does he think it's less safe? If not, and he thinks both are equally safe, then why not let you be happy with having her RFing longer. If both are as good in his eyes, then so be it.

Did you show him the vertabrae of a 1 year old and 6 year old. I understand you have a 2 year old, but that's going to be closer to 1 than to 6. Here's that thread: http://windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=180970

[OKKiddo]

Unfortunately, yes, he is. Physics, engineering, and auto design. And when he is adamant about something, 99.99% of the time, he is right.

He says that none of the articles gave evidence as to why RF is safer past age 2 (which DD will be in a week). He says that our seat doesn't install as well RF, that it is much more solid FF because of the tether. He says that the studies citing Scandinavia are comparing RF tethered seats to FF seats and that since ours is not tethered RF, the comparison is not valid.

Most of the above is true, as far as I can tell. The articles I was able to find mostly did promote RF until age 2 but were vague on the hard data for past age 2.

He also says the Car Seat Tech certification (sorry, I don't know the real term offhand) is fake and not backed up by any knowledge of the laws of physics. I highly doubt this is true but don't have any evidence to disprove it (such as who provides the certification and what the requirements are).

He had some other reasonable concerns that I was not able to rebut, as well as the standard unreasonable ones (I won't be able to interact with her--oh noes!).

He also seems much more concerned about his car that about our daughter. I will be driving his car while he is deployed because it doesn't make sense to pay for two cars while he is gone.

As for the comments that he isn't here and doesn't have a say, well, it just doesn't work that way. I'm not going to flat-out lie to him, and if I tell him I have her RF, it will lead to an argument. That's not exactly ideal when we may not see each other again until November or December.

Thanks for all your input. I'll keep working on him.

And I may be off on her weight. I think she's grown a lot in the last month or so and may be closer to 30 lbs than I realize. We'll find out at her 2-year check-up in a couple of weeks. (BTW, our ped supports ERF, but DH doesn't trust her knowledge of physics either. :rolleyes:)

I won't get into the discussion about the physics of it because I think all of those points have been covered. I did notice something that stands out to me, and I think it's very important because it appears to me to be your husbands true and main reason for turning your child around. "He also seems much more concerned about his car that about our daughter." What about his car is he concerned with? The seat compression from the car seat? It decompresses on it's own, with no lasting damage, within a day or two. Dirt on the back seat? Jools and others on here can tell you about how to drape a towel to keep the dirt off.

I can't think of ANY other reasons that would make him adamant about lessening her safety and your sense of peace with turning your daughter forward. But, seriously? My child? My car? Child will win, hands down, every single time. I can drive an old beater, and I can learn to live without my true love. I don't think I could ever be whole again (mentally, emotionally, physically) without my babies.

Oh, and my hubby was talking about turning our first child around forward facing at a year as well. I had found this board and had watched all the videos and I broke the bad news to him. He rolled his eyes and gave me the your crazy look, but respected me and went along with it. I bought a back up seat when my youngest was about to be born and installed it forward facing in his Jeep Wrangler (mistakenly thought that the whole base had to be on the seat). He rides in it so infrequently that we left it like that. However, it was after my youngest was born and we had gone on a very short trip and my hubby had to slam on the brakes to avoid tasting the tailpipe of the car in front of us. It was a really hard braking and we were all thrown forward in our seats. My husband heard our son's scream of terror and I made him watch the videos again that night. Since then, he's only asked me if our son has outgrown his current seat (BLVD that goes to 33 lbs). He wants him to turn forward, but he's not going to push me anymore because he finally understands the safety behind it.

And, my hubby is in the Army and deployed right now too. I don't lie to him. I tell him everything that he would have heard if he were still coming home every evening, if there's time. I have to rate the things I'm going to tell him based on importance because we get so little time to talk to each other (phone, email, instant messages). And even if I wanted to sit down and type out the whole long story of our day, I don't have all the energy, or the time--and he wouldn't be able to read it all based on those same issues. So, install the seat how you feel is best. If he really wants to bring it up on his own, then you don't have to lie to him but tell him but explain to him that you feel it's safest right now, and that with him gone--any bit of safety you can feel is always good. I know I feel jumpier when my husband is gone--every little sound has my heart racing, and every emotion is stronger and more raw. He can't fault you for that, and it usually helps to work with their macho self's by making him WANT to help you feel safer. ;)

[CPSDarren]

He says that none of the articles gave evidence as to why RF is safer past age 2 (which DD will be in a week).

There is no real world data beyond 2 years in the USA. That's true.


He says that our seat doesn't install as well RF, that it is much more solid FF because of the tether.

It is quite possible that a seat that is correctly installed and used front facing could be safer than one that is not correctly installed and used rear-facing, depending on the age and weight of the child, of course. If this is the case, the first step would be to see a technician who may be able to get it correctly installed while rear facing.


He says that the studies citing Scandinavia are comparing RF tethered seats to FF seats and that since ours is not tethered RF, the comparison is not valid.

While the tether is a variable, its purpose rear-facing is quite different than front facing. When rear-facing, it mostly serves to prevent rebound, a much less energetic part of a crash. When front-facing, it serves to reduce head excursion and the possibility of the child striking a hard part of the vehicle interior during the most energetic part of the crash. That's why top tethers are always recommended FF, but only even appear on a few seats for use when RF.



He also says the Car Seat Tech certification (sorry, I don't know the real term offhand) is fake and not backed up by any knowledge of the laws of physics. I highly doubt this is true but don't have any evidence to disprove it (such as who provides the certification and what the requirements are).

Being certified as a CPS Tech requires no formal education in physics or engineering. On the other hand, the principles behind the safest practice taught to tehcnicians are definitely based on the physics of crashes and real world data. It comes from decades of research by experts at crash testing laboratories and researchers with advanced degrees in physics, engineering, statistics, medicine and other disciplines.


He had some other reasonable concerns that I was not able to rebut, as well as the standard unreasonable ones (I won't be able to interact with her--oh noes!).

I'm not a PhD in Physics, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! Adding to that, I am an engineer and worked for 10 years at a physics laboratory...

While we lack data from real world crashes to show kids above 2 years are safer rear-facing, the reality is that we'd all be safer rear facing. This is absolutely because of the physics of the most common and severe crashes that are from the front and side.

In a frontal crash, the head, neck and spine are all kept in alignment relative to each other by the support of the shell of the carseat. In a side crash, the back of a RF seat tends to pivot toward the point of impact, keeping the head within the shell. When FF, the head and legs tend to fly forward toward the point of impact, much like a ragdoll due to the violent nature of the impact. It is quite apparent in videos that the head almost always leaves the protection of the shell of the child restraint. Older kids and adults tend to be able to withstand these forces better, so the benefits of rear-facing tend to be diminishing as you get older and larger. If the head moves enough to hit a pillar or door or hard object, it is still quite serious at any age, since you no longer have that shell between you and the impact.

www.car-safety.org/rearface.html

All that said, beyond the age of two, it is certainly reasonable to turn a child front facing. That doesn't mean it's safer, but that the increased risks from doing so may be relatively small. Older kids who are front-facing are quite safe if they are correctly restrained. Installing and using the restraint are even more important, though, as front facing tends to be less forgiving of minor misuse. A little bit of a looser install, a harness that is a bit loose on top of a winter coat and you have a recipe to add a lot to the potential head excursion that could lead to severe trauma.

[jjordan]

Just quoting part of your second post:


He says that the studies citing Scandinavia are comparing RF tethered seats to FF seats and that since ours is not tethered RF, the comparison is not valid.

Marathons can be tethered RF so it is actually a valid comparison if you are putting her in a marathon (as long as you use the RF tether).

[DrSally]

My dd's didn't hit the limits of the Marathon till 4.5 and 3, so I'd say that's more than practical and fine. Why isn't your MA tethered RF, though?

You have her in a marathon? Maybe the first step would be to get it properly tethered. That might help DH calm down a bit. Sounds like he's at a point where he really wants to be "right". Glad he apologized about being so adamant. Hopefully you can work something out.

[niccig]

This is when I say "this is very important to me, and it's what I want to do with DS"

It was very important to my DH for DS to do/have certain things. I didn't care as much as DH did, and I agreed to go along as it was more important to DH.

RF was more important to me. DH rolled his eyes, but went along with it. If you feel strongly about RF, tell your DH this is how you want DC to ride. He may disagree with your reasons on RF, but why can't he let you have this one? It's not hurting DC or the car to be RF and not FF.

Parenting is all about compromise - together you have to work out how to do things, sometimes you meet in the middle and other times you let the other parent do what they want, or you get what you want.

[sariana]

The seat that led to the argument is actually a ComfortSport. (I know, I know, but it's always been our backup seat, and we needed a seat for an airplane trip.)

In my car DD is in a RA (RF). When we turn in my car (end our lease) in a few weeks, I will have only DH's car. DS's MA (FF) and DD's RA (still a ???) will move to his much smaller car.

The RA is not tethered. I don't think either car is equipped for RF tethering, and modifying the leased car was not really an option.

DH doesn't like having the CS RF because the passenger seat has to be all the way forward. Yes, that is a pain, but no one is sitting in that seat since he isn't even here. I drove the car yesterday only because it needs to be driven at least once a week, and it has been 2 weeks since DH left, and I hadn't driven it yet.

I don't know how the RA will fit and whether the seat will still need to be all the way forward.

Now I'm reading (on car-seat.org) that Britax seats are questionable FF. :dizzy: Not what I need to hear right now.

Since I likely won't drive his car again for at least a week, I'm trying to avoid the topic. Once I have to move the RA, I'll have a better idea of how that's going to work out.


I'm not a PhD in Physics, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

:ROTFLMAO:


the reality is that we'd all be safer rear facing

This is what my dad has always said. When I was in school, he used to say the seats on school busses should all face backwards because it was much safer that way.

Thank you for all your thoughtful responses. I really do appreciate it.

BTW, I measured and weighed DD tonight. Based on my very imprecise measurements, she is 33" and 25.3 lbs (with a diaper on). So she has a ways to go even with our lower-limit seat.

[DrSally]

Now I'm reading (on car-seat.org) that Britax seats are questionable FF. :dizzy: Not what I need to hear right now.
.

Can you expand on this?

[sariana]

Several posts back, Jools posted a link to car-seat.org and asked if I was the same person as that poster. If you follow that link and read down a few posts, it comes up. IIRC, they said there was a study done in Canada back in October, and Britax seats did not do well FF. I just recently (as in the last few days) started visiting car-seat.org, but I immediately noticed a LOT of animosity toward Britax. The Mods had to post a warning about it, telling people to cool off.

[DrSally]

Several posts back, Jools posted a link to car-seat.org and asked if I was the same person as that poster. If you follow that link and read down a few posts, it comes up. IIRC, they said there was a study done in Canada back in October, and Britax seats did not do well FF. I just recently (as in the last few days) started visiting car-seat.org, but I immediately noticed a LOT of animosity toward Britax. The Mods had to post a warning about it, telling people to cool off.

Interesting. I guess no seat works in all situations, but I thought I was buying the top of the line.

[KrisM]

The RA is not tethered. I don't think either car is equipped for RF tethering, and modifying the leased car was not really an option.


No need to modify the car to tether it. It came with a D-ring on a short strap. Find a place to wrap the strap around and put the D-ring part through the loop on the strap. Connect the tether to the D-ring. You can wrap the strap around anything on the seat track that doesn't move -you might have to move the seats forward and really dig in with your fingers to find a spot, but most vehicles have a place this can happen.

[niccig]

If no one is sitting in the passenger seat, you don't have to worry about how far forward the seat is..no one there to be too close to the dashboard.

You can install a RF seat at a more upright angle. The 45 degree is for newborns. When you install the seat, push down hard where your DD's feet would be. She'll be up a little higher and can see out a little more as well.

[Joolsplus2]

Don't worry about the brouhaha over FF Britaxes at Car-seat.org. The tests involved *extreme* situations (which Transport Canada didn't even say exactly what they were, so it's actually as iffy as the iffy Consumer Reports reviews and their vague little meaningless red and black circles). And the seats didn't actually fail, and there's been no recall, which Britax certainly would do if there were a problem (they recall all their seats all the time, every time they even suspect there may be a problem, before there IS a problem!).
Just top tether when forward facing, and don't let the opinions worry you, they are just that (I think these people sometimes forget that Britax is one of the best because they are SO easy to install, SO easy to care for, fit most cars, fit kids to a reasonable age for rearfacing and boostering, that they just go on about other seats that have higher weight or height limits but a plethora of quality and install issues that make them a pain for regular moms to deal with... one tech there actually said she 'prefers a seat that's a challenge to install', which is NOT helpful for regular parents :tongue5:)

Ok, off my soapbox. Hope you can figure out your install/recline/tethering/seat protection issues. Start a new thread with questions and we can help you out. That'll keep your mommy's heart happy and your dh happy about his car :)

[sariana]

No need to modify the car to tether it. It came with a D-ring on a short strap. Find a place to wrap the strap around and put the D-ring part through the loop on the strap. Connect the tether to the D-ring. You can wrap the strap around anything on the seat track that doesn't move -you might have to move the seats forward and really dig in with your fingers to find a spot, but most vehicles have a place this can happen.

Thanks. I'll look into that.


Don't worry about the brouhaha over FF Britaxes at Car-seat.org. The tests involved *extreme* situations (which Transport Canada didn't even say exactly what they were, so it's actually as iffy as the iffy Consumer Reports reviews and their vague little meaningless red and black circles). And the seats didn't actually fail, and there's been no recall, which Britax certainly would do if there were a problem (they recall all their seats all the time, every time they even suspect there may be a problem, before there IS a problem!).

Thank you for the reassurance!

The issue is on hold for now, as we are back in my car for the time being. I'll see what I can do about using the tether RF--that eliminates DH's most legitimate concern. (The rest are specious, IMO.)

[DrSally]

Don't worry about the brouhaha over FF Britaxes at Car-seat.org. ... one tech there actually said she 'prefers a seat that's a challenge to install', which is NOT helpful for regular parents :tongue5

Thanks, Jools! YEah, if your not an afficianado, buying an obscure, harder to use carseat is not giong to be appealing...

To, OP, I did just what PP did when tethering my Britax RF, just found a non-moving metal bar on the car to attach it to.

[lorinick]

Don't worry about the brouhaha over FF Britaxes at Car-seat.org. The tests involved *extreme* situations (which Transport Canada didn't even say exactly what they were, so it's actually as iffy as the iffy Consumer Reports reviews and their vague little meaningless red and black circles). And the seats didn't actually fail, and there's been no recall, which Britax certainly would do if there were a problem (they recall all their seats all the time, every time they even suspect there may be a problem, before there IS a problem!).
Just top tether when forward facing, and don't let the opinions worry you, they are just that (I think these people sometimes forget that Britax is one of the best because they are SO easy to install, SO easy to care for, fit most cars, fit kids to a reasonable age for rearfacing and boostering, that they just go on about other seats that have higher weight or height limits but a plethora of quality and install issues that make them a pain for regular moms to deal with... one tech there actually said she 'prefers a seat that's a challenge to install', which is NOT helpful for regular parents :tongue5:)

Ok, off my soapbox. Hope you can figure out your install/recline/tethering/seat protection issues. Start a new thread with questions and we can help you out. That'll keep your mommy's heart happy and your dh happy about his car :)



You said that VERY well. I love my Britax seats for the oh so easy install. I really trust the seat. Posted had my freaked about this study as well. I think you made me feel better about it than.