Swim class - is this normal?

[fivi2]

I don't know if I am under-reacting or over-reacting...

The girls (just turned 4) had their first swim lesson today. I have heard good things about the place. The ratio is 5:1 (same everywhere I called) which translates to 10 kids and 2 adults. Today there were only 8 kids though. The pool is 2 feet deep for a while and then gets deeper. The parents have to sit in another room, but can see through a window.

It started out a little chaotic. The instructors (2 probably college age girls) didn't have great control, but it calmed down. They split into two groups on either side of the pool.

At one point one of my dds starts drifting into deeper water. All of us moms are watching through the window, but instructor isn't noticing. My dd tries to grab the edge, but it is too high. She is splashing at this point - all the moms are starting to freak out. I go running in the room yelling at the instructor, who stares at me like I am crazy. The other instructor yells at her also, she finally turns and sees my daughter and grabs her. I run over - my daughter is fine - not coughing or crying. I, however, am totally freaked out - including crying in front of all these women I don't know...

So - wwyd? Is this to be expected? would you not take them back? Go back and just keep watching? I will probably lose the deposit I have paid so far (the class is all semester, so pretty expensive, but I have only paid the deposit - $50.00 per kid)

Any thoughts? TIA!

[infomama]

I'd be pissed. Their heads should be moving, glancing around and keeping an eye on each kid. I may give her one more try but that would be after a serious talk with the manager. That must have been awful...I would have been yelling at them too.

[SnuggleBuggles]

In classes with big groups like that, the instructors have always insisted that the kid(s) not being worked with need to hold onto the wall the whole time. It sounds like they are just new and don't know those basics yet. Also at all the pools ds has taken lessons at the parents aren't made to go sit somewhere else.

Beth

[kristenk]

DD's swim classes have 1 instructor with a max of 4 kids. Especially at the beginning of the class, the kids are asked to sit on the side of the pool if they're waiting for their turn. Parents wait in another room and can see through a window.

I can't imagine being in your position and seeing that. That's awful. I would definitely talk to the manager about the incident and see what they had to say.

ETA: My daughter has been in swimming lessons for close to 2 years. I've noticed that the instructors often let the kids stay under water (while they're working on a stroke or something) long after I'd have started to freak out. The instructor will pull the child up and the child will be totally fine, no question. That happens when the instructor is watching. In your case, the instructor seemed totally clueless about what was going on. If the instructor didn't understand that she did something wrong - not noticing that one of her students had ventured off into an area she shouldn't be - I'd see about switching to an instructor with more experience.

[fivi2]

Thanks! I don't know why they weren't sitting on the edge - that is how they started, but then they let them all in at some point. It is possible she was supposed to be holding onto the edge and just wasn't listening (my dds are fearless around water even though they can't swim). I did talk to her about not going into the deep part, and she does need to learn, but I think the instructor needs to be on top of a bunch of 4 yos! I don't know - it really freaked me out and all the other moms definitely thought it was scary.

[JustMe]

I don't blame you for being freaked out..I would definitely talk to whoever the higher up person is (supervisor, manager, director). Even if you dd wasn't listening,yes, they should have all kids in sight at all times. Dd's swimming classes had the same ratio or worse at your dds' age and someone always had their eye on all kids.

[Laurel]

In classes with big groups like that, the instructors have always insisted that the kid(s) not being worked with need to hold onto the wall the whole time. It sounds like they are just new and don't know those basics yet. Also at all the pools ds has taken lessons at the parents aren't made to go sit somewhere else.

Beth

This this this. The kids don't have to be all the way out of the pool, but should be holding the edge- within view of the instructor!

I'd talk to the head of the program before pulling out completely.

[hillview]

My son would be the one swimming away from the edge into the deep end. I'd ask DD if she was supposed to hold on to edge etc. I'd be upset and also want to understand what the rules are. I don't know your DD (if she'd follow directions etc). I'd talk to the director as well.
/hillary

[annex]

I would be mad, too. During our lessons, there is a lifeguard watching the whole pool, besides the two instructors. I think that's way too high a ratio of kids per instructor for a pool area that is that close to being over the kids heads. I would look for another pool with a better configuration, and/or that has a lifeguard there.

[KrisM]

Thanks! I don't know why they weren't sitting on the edge - that is how they started, but then they let them all in at some point. It is possible she was supposed to be holding onto the edge and just wasn't listening (my dds are fearless around water even though they can't swim). I did talk to her about not going into the deep part, and she does need to learn, but I think the instructor needs to be on top of a bunch of 4 yos! I don't know - it really freaked me out and all the other moms definitely thought it was scary.

I've never seen them have the kids sitting on the ledge - kids would be cold out of the water for that long. But, they always have to hold onto the ledge if it's not their turn.

And, we we are now, it's shallow enough that even DD can stand where her lessons start. But, where we were before, they had risers under the water so that the kids could stand right at the edge.

Our instructors never have their backs on the kids, either. They have the kid being worked with between them and the rest of the class.

I'd be freaked out, pissed, and talking to someone about it for sure. I don't think it's at all normal.

[egoldber]

This happened to Sarah. They were supposed to be sitting on the edge and she let go and the instructor didn't notice.

This is a big reason why I went to private swim lessons. There was barely any time in the water and a LOT of time sitting on the ledge.

[daniele_ut]

This happened to Sarah. They were supposed to be sitting on the edge and she let go and the instructor didn't notice.

This is a big reason why I went to private swim lessons. There was barely any time in the water and a LOT of time sitting on the ledge.

We are moving to private lessons as well. Logan got very little out of his last session of swimming lessons. His teacher had just gotten her WSI (water safety instructor) and had no idea how to handle four 4 year olds.

[MommyAllison]

Not normal in our experience! DD was in lessons this past summer, 4 kids in her class with 1 instructor (1 kid almost never showed up, so it was usually 3:1), and if the instructor was working with them 1:1, the others were sitting on the steps or holding on to the edge - usually the steps. Our instructor was really careful and watched them well when they were all out in the water. I'd have been upset if that happened, and DH would probably have flipped out and pulled her out of lessons (he nearly drowned as a kid and is paranoid now). Hope you can get it worked out!

ETA: There were a few times that a kid would start to leave the steps/edge, and the instructor would immediately send them back.

[mikeys_mom]

As a former swim instructor that is way too high a ratio IMO, especially at that age. Even though the ratio is actually 5:1, the fact that there are 10 4 year olds in a class together just makes the class a lot more rowdy and potentially dangerous.

I have always done private lessons for my kids. The ratio is 2:1 at the beginner levels and 3:1 once they can swim on their own (red cross swim kids 3 here). At our public community centers the ratio is 3:1 for the learn to swim program.

Also, when I was looking around for lessons, the physical structure of the pool was important to me. The place where my DC go, has a small wading area and then a few steps down into the main pool. They use the wading area for the younger kids and have them wait on the ledge while they are waiting for their turn. The pool is heated to 88 or 90 degrees so there is no concern with them getting cold.

*I* would pull out of the class and look for something else.

So sorry that this happened to your DD. Water is really scary with little ones.

[jamesmom]

That's not normal, IMO. I would be freaked out too. I think the ratio of 5 kids to 1 instructor is too high, especially for a beginners class. At our swim school, they never have more than 4 kids to one instructor, and frequently have a helper/second instructor to help out with beginner classes. I would pull the kids out and look for another arrangement under these circumstances.

[fivi2]

Thanks for the input! Dh and I are going to talk about it tonight and see what we want to do. I did not go talk to the manager at the time (I panic and don't think clearly in situations like this... not good). So, I don't know how much of a fight they will give if I decide to pull them out... But all the other moms saw it. Sigh...

Thanks!

[s7714]

Our local Parks & Rec. has a 3:1 ratio for the younger kids. And they're required to stay sitting on the step at the edges of the pool if they're not doing something with the teacher--there is no just "hanging on the side" at that age! They make sure there's room for all the kids to sit on the steps. Once they graduate up to level 1 (around age 6) it's like a 8-10:1 ratio, but often they'll have a assistant teacher to break it up to a group half that size.

I think 5:1 is way too high when you're talking about kids who are not experienced enough to at least know how to keep their head above the water. I'd look elsewhere for lessons! Do they even have lifeguards stationed around the pool who are not participating directly in the lessons? Our P&R always has at least one lifeguard stationed to just watch the little ones during their lessons for the sole reason to catch situations like what happened with your DD.

[Laurel]

Our P&R always has at least one lifeguard stationed to just watch the little ones during their lessons for the sole reason to catch situations like what happened with your DD.

Yes, this has been our experience as well.

[hillview]

Yes, this has been our experience as well.

Yes that.
/hillary

[lilycat88]

I taught swimming for 20 years (age 15 - 35, YMCA programs, IU Natatorium in Indianapolis, community park pool programs, Red Cross) and been an instructor trainer. I've seen it all. A Ratio of 1:5 of that age is tough for all but the most experienced instructors. But, it's not that unusual in my experience. I've had as many as 10 in a class....nightmare.

Granted, it wasn' acceptable and it was scary for you, but, I wouldn't pull them based on that one experience. Someone wondered why the kids weren't sitting on the side. Kids get REALLY cold sitting on the side waiting for their turn. So, I always had them in the water holding on to the side and encouraged them to keep their shoulders under the water. This should have been covered with the kids before they even got in the water. I also designated spots on the wall or deck that they were to stay between. A violation of either of these "rules" resulted in about 60 seconds sitting on the deck.

Was there a lifeguard on deck? If not, that would concern me more than the incident. The instructor should have noticed but, I can't say I haven't been in the same spot....especially at the first or second class. Things happen. I can guarantee that instructor will keep a closer eye on the group the next time. I'd give it another chance but do talk to the instructor before the next class and calmly share your concern. If you don't notice a difference, then I would escalate to the manager.

[fivi2]

I taught swimming for 20 years (age 15 - 35, YMCA programs, IU Natatorium in Indianapolis, community park pool programs, Red Cross) and been an instructor trainer. I've seen it all. A Ratio of 1:5 of that age is tough for all but the most experienced instructors. But, it's not that unusual in my experience. I've had as many as 10 in a class....nightmare.

Granted, it wasn' acceptable and it was scary for you, but, I wouldn't pull them based on that one experience. Someone wondered why the kids weren't sitting on the side. Kids get REALLY cold sitting on the side waiting for their turn. So, I always had them in the water holding on to the side and encouraged them to keep their shoulders under the water. This should have been covered with the kids before they even got in the water. I also designated spots on the wall or deck that they were to stay between. A violation of either of these "rules" resulted in about 60 seconds sitting on the deck.

Was there a lifeguard on deck? If not, that would concern me more than the incident. The instructor should have noticed but, I can't say I haven't been in the same spot....especially at the first or second class. Things happen. I can guarantee that instructor will keep a closer eye on the group the next time. I'd give it another chance but do talk to the instructor before the next class and calmly share your concern. If you don't notice a difference, then I would escalate to the manager.

No lifeguard. This is a small facility with an indoor pool - pretty small. I don't know sizes, but definitely smaller than a regular pool. They don't want the parents in there, so I didn't hear if they explained the rules. They had the kids sitting on a step in the shallow area in the beginning taking turns. (a large portion of the pool is 2 feet deep and then it goes to 5 feet at the other end).

It seemed like they split the kids into a more advanced and a less advanced group. This seemed like the more advanced group and she had them near the side while taking one at a time to practice swimming. She just did not see my dd slip into the deeper part. My dd isn't more advanced, I think they just wanted to separate my girls because they had been splashing a lot in the beginning - she did not belong in this group. The other group stayed by the step and took turns with the kickboard etc. So, if we decide to go back, I will talk to them about keeping both dds in the less advanced group.

Thanks for your input!

[sunshine873]

It's up to you what to do. I might give them one more chance. But if you decide to pull them out, I would talk to the manager, explain what happened and insist on getting your money back (including deposit) based on the fact that your DD was not properly supervised. (Thank God you were watching, but you should not have had to step in.) It's not like you're backing out because you found something else to do or just didn't want to pay anymore. I think you have reason to demand a full refund.

[crl]

This happened to Sarah. They were supposed to be sitting on the edge and she let go and the instructor didn't notice.

This is a big reason why I went to private swim lessons. There was barely any time in the water and a LOT of time sitting on the ledge.

We had a similar experience. The instructor asked us to move DS up to the next level, which meant no parent in the water. So we did. In the first class, he was sitting on the edge of the pool waiting his turn, leaned over to put his hand in the water and fell in without making a sound. Neither of the instructors noticed. The lifeguard didn't notice. DH was sitting outside the fence (outdoor pool) and yelled at them to rescue DS. We moved back to a parent-child class.

Catherine

[MMMommy]

That is unacceptable that the instructor was so absent-minded. She should be keeping an eye on her kids at all times, even while focusing on one. I think you could argue (and win) your money back in light of the situation, if you do decide you don't want to return. It isn't as if you are canceling because you changed your mind willy nilly, rather you are dissatisfied with the quality of care.

I would talk to the director/manager and give the instructor another chance. But after that, no more chances!

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

Like PP's I would complain, safety is so important!

[jamesmom]

Just wanted to echo PPs that it's also important to consider the pool configuration and whether there is a lifeguard when looking for a location for swim lessons. The place where my DCs take lessons has wide graduated steps all along one side of the pool starting at 6 inches and going deeper, and the kids have to sit on the steps unless the instructor is working with them. There is also a lifeguard on the swim deck at all times who is not involved in the classes. All this adds an element of safety as the parents cannot be in the same room (although we have wide viewing windows).

To OP, your DD should not have been put with the more advanced group in the first place. Hopefully the instructors take more care in the future. :hug:

[mytwosons]

Was there a lifeguard on deck? If not, that would concern me more than the incident. The instructor should have noticed but, I can't say I haven't been in the same spot....especially at the first or second class. Things happen. I can guarantee that instructor will keep a closer eye on the group the next time. I'd give it another chance but do talk to the instructor before the next class and calmly share your concern. If you don't notice a difference, then I would escalate to the manager.

I haven't read most of the replies, but a big :yeahthat: to the point about the lifeguard. My DS1 did the same thing at his first swim lesson and my DH had to yell to the instructor. (Now, it didn't get as far as your situation. My DH was watching DS1 get farther away and got nervous. He yelled at the first sign of trouble and thankfully since the lessons were outside, he was right there.) Anyhow, the instructors were very apologetic and the lifeguard was reprimanded. We noticed for future lessons that the lifeguards were very on top of things.

ETA: They always had two lifeguards. Two instructors and there were 4 or 5 kids in the class.

[vonfirmath]

I've heard of this happening in other swim classes, as well. So it seems to at least be repeatable.

[mecawa]

DD1 has been swimming since she was 3 and is now 6, we have had several different instructors and we have NEVER had anything like that happen. We have had an instructor, who did not have great control (she was a high school girl) and she made me a little nervous, but where we go, we stay in the room with them, and so if I saw DD try to get off the steps (she was only 3 at this point) I would say something if the instructor didn't, although, I have to say, the instructor usually picked up on her sneakiness before me.

[s7714]

No lifeguard. This is a small facility with an indoor pool - pretty small. I don't know sizes, but definitely smaller than a regular pool. They don't want the parents in there, so I didn't hear if they explained the rules. They had the kids sitting on a step in the shallow area in the beginning taking turns. (a large portion of the pool is 2 feet deep and then it goes to 5 feet at the other end).

I'd go elsewhere. The size of the pool is a moot point in my book when there are multiple kids with limited adults. One of our pool centers has a separate kiddie poll that's only 2 ft deep across the whole 15' x 15' thing--they still have a lifeguard stationed by that pool whenever kids are in it. In fact two summers ago my older DD accidentally fell in that kiddie pool when everyone was finished with lessons and walking toward the parent gate. My DD was walking behind her instructor, not watching where she was going and walked right off the edge. If the lifeguard hadn't been standing right there to jump in and help her up, who knows how long she would be been panicking with her head underwater before she was noticed. Yeah she could have just stood up, but a 4 year old doesn't always have the presence of mind to think that way when they suddenly find themselves falling into water! Considering kids can drown in a bathtub or backyard pool with only a few inches, I'm a firm believer that constant vigilance must be taken around swimming pools of any size!

[gatorsmom]

In classes with big groups like that, the instructors have always insisted that the kid(s) not being worked with need to hold onto the wall the whole time.

Beth

Our boys have been going to swim lessons for 3 years now through the community ed program. This has alway been the rule and they get a serious speaking to if they don't continue to hang on. The instructors have always been good about watching the children HOWEVER, like you, I watch them carefully, in case something like this were to happen. You just never know....

[sarahsthreads]

Our P&R always has at least one lifeguard stationed to just watch the little ones during their lessons for the sole reason to catch situations like what happened with your DD.

Yeah, the P&R lessons we did with DD1 had a 3:1 ratio (well, 6:2), and there was always a lifeguard sitting literally within arms reach of the shallow end of the pool just watching the kids in lessons. If there were other people in the pool (some of the sessions we did also had lanes open for lap swimming at the same time as lessons) there was a second lifeguard to watch the rest of the pool.

The kids were supposed to hold on to the side to wait for their turn. They practiced bobbing and such while they waited, so I was very happy to have a lifeguard right there!

Sarah :)

[mommy111]

We have a similar ratio and therefore several checks and balances....the swim supervisor is there all through the swim classes standing by the side of the pool to watch out for kids in this kind of a situation. There is a lifeguard who sits by the side of the pool specifically for the class kids in addition to the other lifeguard who monitors the rest of the pool.
In your situation, I would definitely contact the supervisor.

[MMMommy]

I am horrified to say that this happened to us tonight at swim class with DD2. It was her turn with the kickboard and practicing breathing across the pool. So the instructor let her go and moved on to the next kid, meanwhile not noticing that DD2 lost control of the board and was sinking.

Horrifying.