Any reason not to harness?

[jse107]

DS is over 5, but on the small side (43'' and about 40lbs). He's currently harnessed in a Britax Frontier. Is there any reason he can't continue to be in the 5 pt. harness rather than the seatbelt? He has never complained about the harness, so we haven't even offered the seatbelt.

Just wondering! (None of his friends are harnessed anymore, and stopped being harnessed around 3 years-old.)

[sariana]

I can't answer your question from a safety perspective, but I can tell you that my 5 1/2-y-o son is still harnessed in his MA. In fact, just two days we moved the straps up to the highest slot, so he should have at least a few more months in it. I'm hoping he makes it to age 6, which will be in July.

ETA: DS is <44" and <40 lbs. He hasn't gained much weight in the last six months, so unless he has a huge growth spurt, I think he'll be fine in his MA.

[Piglet]

No reason whatsoever - ever upgrade in carseat (from RF to FF, from FF to booster, from booster to car seat) is a step down in safety. There has been a recent push to allow for longer RF harnessing and longer FF harnessing for this very reason. You have a seat that will let him be harnessed for a while yet. Don't go with the majority on this one - parents somehow get annoyed by harnessing the kids in or the kids want to be like their friends and next thing you know they are in boosters. Harnesses are much safer (just like race car drivers use).

[jjordan]

Some hypothesize that harnessing for kids that are old enough & physically developed enough to use a booster properly actually *may* be slightly more dangerous because of increased strain on their neck in an accident. Basically, a harness does a better job of holding the body back, so more of the momentum will be taken by their head moving forward. Whereas in a 3 point adult lap/shoulder belt, their body can move forward more, which means their head will take less of the momentum.

Of course, in order for a seatbelt to work, it needs to be positioned properly. So if there is a chance that the child won't have the seatbelt positioned properly, then a harnessed seat will be better.

Even in cases where an adult seatbelt might be slightly better, I think the differences are slight enough that it's no big deal.

[AnnieW625]

I agree with Piglet. We have our 3/1/2 yr. old in Britax Frontiers in both of our cars and she will stay harnessed in them until at least 5 or 6 (for things like field trips, and such we'll most likely get another more portable booster to get her booster trained), but honestly I wouldn't mind a little longer for everyday use in our cars if DD isn't 100% ready for booster training (although I think she will be). We are somewhat lucky though because since both DH and I work full time we probably won't have the opportunity to carpool so if we decide to keep DD harnessed past 5 or 6 it will be rare that she ever sees what seats or lack of seats other kids have. We most likely won't look at replacement seats for DD until #2 is ready for the Frontiers, which at the earliest for #2 would be 3, so DD will be 7.

[bubbaray]

Well, I kinda disagree that there is no reason not to harness older children. Its a somewhat controversial topic in the tech community. ETA: there is a step down in safety for younger children RFg to FFg to booster -- however, the evidence apparently does not support increased safety for children in harnesses vs boosters over about age 5/40lbs.

For example, there is apparently research out of Sweden (where they RF to age 4-5, then go directly to booster, they do not FF harness) that there is increased load on the child's neck with FFg harnessing. If you search around on car-seat.org and look specifically for posts from Adventuredad, you will find info on this. ETA: the PP 3 posts above has summarized this well -- basically in older children, the harness may do too good of a job holding the torso in the seat, which results in increased "head excursion" numbers, meaning more (not less) force is placed on the weakest part of the child's anatomy, the neck.

Personally, I would not FF harness an older, heavier child in a Britax Marathon, particularly in a Dodge Caravan or Honda Civic. The semi-recent Transport Canada crash testing of that particular seat with the heavier dummy weirded me out a LOT.

I put my then 40lb newly 5yo in a booster (Monterey) last May. I am very very happy with that seat. If we hadn't already purchased a Nautilus for her for DH's vehicle only a few months prior, I would have her in a booster in both vehicles (she'll be 6 in April, weighs about 40lbs still). She's very compliant in terms of the booster. If she weren't, I guess I would still harness her.

If you want to start booster training, I wouldn't hesitate given your child's age and weight, unless there are some behavioral issues which make you think that the child won't sit properly in a booster.

JMHO.

[KrisM]

Melissa,

Do you think continuing to harness is actually a negative or just not a positive? DS1 is still harnessed, but a large part of that is because it's what fits in my car :). I did just buy a Parkway to see if it will fit, but haven't tried it. With 3 in a row, I don't know that I really want him in it full time because of the buckling issue anyway.

[bubbaray]

Well, I dunno. Its a tough call and depends so much on the kid, KWIM? A senior instructor/tech that is close to me does not extended harness her own children who are about the age of mine. That guided me in my own decision....

A three across situation is one where extended harnessing makes sense, KWIM? Its just easier to buckle a harness than a booster in that situation. But, that's not a safety decision, its one based on practicality and largely finances -- cheaper to do 3 across than buy a new vehicle.

I'm not going to tell a parent that a decision to booster a older, 40lb+, compliant child is wrong or less safe. I'm also not going to tell a parent that harnessing that same child is wrong or MORE safe. I might tell a parent that they might want to look at the Transport Canada crash test videos if they were harnessing an older child up to the limits of a Britax Marathon in either a Caravan or Civic....

[KrisM]

Well, I dunno. Its a tough call and depends so much on the kid, KWIM? A senior instructor/tech that is close to me does not extended harness her own children who are about the age of mine. That guided me in my own decision....

A three across situation is one where extended harnessing makes sense, KWIM? Its just easier to buckle a harness than a booster in that situation. But, that's not a safety decision, its one based on practicality and largely finances -- cheaper to do 3 across than buy a new vehicle.

I'm not going to tell a parent that a decision to booster a older, 40lb+, compliant child is wrong or less safe. I'm also not going to tell a parent that harnessing that same child is wrong or MORE safe. I might tell a parent that they might want to look at the Transport Canada crash test videos if they were harnessing an older child up to the limits of a Britax Marathon in either a Caravan or Civic....


I should have also said that DS is 5.5, 45 inches and only 41 lbs, so not very heavy :).

It sounds like a pretty murky area. I don't drive either a Caravan or Civic, but will look that up and check it out. It's supposed to hit 40 deg this weekend and that's warm enough to get out and try out the Parkway in my car. I'll see how it fits and maybe at 6, we'll move him.

[Joolsplus2]

Yeah, a very murky area. No data actually prove that harnessing heavier children is dangerous though, so no reason not to harness within the limits of the seat, especially if it's top tethered, and in the case of Britax, it has a rip stitch tether that allows it to rip out a little and decrease neck and chest forces dramatically. Plus the Frontier is a booger for little kids to buckle (it's kind of bulky to maneuver around the sides to the buckle), might as well use it till the harness is outgrown and their arms are longer and able to reach down to the buckle easier :)

[hillview]

Ok so DS is 45 lbs and 44.5 inches and 4.5 years old (these were his measurements at 4 years old so likely taller / heavier 6 months later). He is harnessed in a Frontier and RN. Should I rethink this?
/hillary

[Joolsplus2]

Ok so DS is 45 lbs and 44.5 inches and 4.5 years old (these were his measurements at 4 years old so likely taller / heavier 6 months later). He is harnessed in a Frontier and RN. Should I rethink this?
/hillary

No. The only data we DO have is that kids under age 5 are at increased risk of head injury in boosters. There's no need to consider unharnessing a kid before the limits of their seats :)

[hillview]

No. The only data we DO have is that kids under age 5 are at increased risk of head injury in boosters. There's no need to consider unharnessing a kid before the limits of their seats :)

I :heartbeat: Jools!
/hillary

[mom2binsd]

My DD is 6 1/2 but is just 42lbs...she is happy as a clam in her Regents in my car and DH's and we have a Frontier in her grandparents Buick which she is harnessed in. All seats are TT and at this time I still plan to keep her harnessed. We may start booster training in the IL's car, as they only pick her up from school and take her home, less than 1 mile. The Regents still have quite a few years left and we don't have extra cash to buy a booster so I see no need to take her out of the Regents and she has not made a big fuss, I think mostly because her Regent is a Cougar cover.

[MoJo]

I have a Marathon in our Civic. Right now it's RF, and DD is only 19 months. She's tall (all legs like her mama), but average weight.

At what point would you be concerned that we need a different seat in that car?

[Joolsplus2]

I have a Marathon in our Civic. Right now it's RF, and DD is only 19 months. She's tall (all legs like her mama), but average weight.

At what point would you be concerned that we need a different seat in that car?

I wouldn't worry about it rearfacing at all. And forward facing it would only start to concern me if the child were really pushing the top limits. The dummy that looked so dramatic (but still did not get injured 7 times out of 8) was the 52 pound 6 year old, with shoulders that appeared over the top slots. If you have an average sized kiddo, they'll be too tall for the seat about age 5 and 40 pounds, and while they didn't show crash videos of the 35lb 3 yo, the numbers from the NHTSA compliance data for that dummy are fine, so a child not much above that size should be fine, too. Top tether it when it's forward facing, of course. :)

[belovedgandp]

I'm finding this to be very interesting. My son will be 6 next month. He's 49 inches tall and just under 50 pounds in a Radian for both our cars. He's ridden in a HBB with grandpa and some carpooling without a problem.

I'm having our 3rd in March. My plan was to move him permanently into a HBB in 9-12 months when I move the baby out of the infant carrier to Marathon, toddler to Radian, etc. Would moving him as part of turning 6 be appropriate? Thinking about it; might be nice to have a definite date for the younger kids.

[maestramommy]

No, can't think of any reason, given your explanations. Dora will probably still be harnessed at that age, because her seat will still be a convertible. She's small too.

[Gena]

My husband and I recently re-examined this issue as well. For a long time I had thought we would harness DS to the weight/height limits of his Nautilus in my car, which is his main seat. DH had his doubts about the benefits of extended harnessing, but agreed that DS was too young/light/immature to be safely in a booster seat. But we did start booster-training him in DH's car (short trips) a few months after he turned 5 and we were impressed by how well he followed the rules for sitting in the booster seat.

However, as DS has gotten bigger, heavier, and better behaved in the car, we started to rethink the whole issue. We considered a lot of factors.

DS had a sudden growth spurt and his weight pushed the LATCH limits for our car/seat (48 lbs.). Although we managed to get a solid installation with the seat belt, but DS was able to knock it loose every few days. I'm not really sure how he did it and we had never had this problem with LATCH.

DH and I spent a lot of time looking at the tests from Canada and the research from Sweden. And we started looking into how carseat testing is done and how seat manufactures determine the weight limits. I asked here a short while ago about the crash test dummies used during testing. Finding out that the carseats don't have to pass the same test standards after 50 lbs. was shocking to us.


Harnesses are much safer (just like race car drivers use).

DH is a NASCAR fan, so we've talked a lot about the whole "race car drivers wear 5 point harness" thing. In 2000-2001, 5 NASCAR drivers died in crashes due to Basilar skull fractures. This type of injury is the result of the head continuing to move foward while the rest of the body is restrained by the 5 point harness. These deaths caused NASCAR to mandate the use of the HANS device (Head and Neck Support) in October 2001 (as well as the use of "soft walls" at all tracks).

Obviously the speeds and crash forces involved in race car driving are extreme and cannot be compared to regular driving. But I think this does raise cause for concern and shows the importance of considering head excursion and neck loads. DH was a huge Dale Earnhardt fan, so the circumstances of his death in particular made a huge impression on DH.

In the end, we found no clear evidence one way or another for whether harnessing or boostering is safer for a child of our son's age/weight. There are a lot of theories, but as others have said it seems to be a really murky area after a certain point. I think it's up to the parents to decide what they think is best.

We choose to move DS to a dedicated booster full time last month. We all love his new seat (a Monterey, the Nautilus didn't fit him well as a booster). And he does a great job sitting in it the right way. We are happy with this decision, but don't think there is a definate right answer either way.

[Joolsplus2]

I'm finding this to be very interesting. My son will be 6 next month. He's 49 inches tall and just under 50 pounds in a Radian for both our cars. He's ridden in a HBB with grandpa and some carpooling without a problem.

I'm having our 3rd in March. My plan was to move him permanently into a HBB in 9-12 months when I move the baby out of the infant carrier to Marathon, toddler to Radian, etc. Would moving him as part of turning 6 be appropriate? Thinking about it; might be nice to have a definite date for the younger kids.

6 is generally a fine age to move to a booster. If you have a tight three-across situation where keeping him harnessed is necessary, then that would be a factor, but if you have plenty of space and feel that he'll be ready to sit properly in a booster, that's really fine. If he turns out to be a super wiggle worm in a booster, there are other larger harnessed options you can explore, though.

[mommybug]

No. The only data we DO have is that kids under age 5 are at increased risk of head injury in boosters. There's no need to consider unharnessing a kid before the limits of their seats :)

Would that be the case for HBB? A friend recently told me that she moved her son that just turned 4 last month to a HBB. He is heavy, 50+ pounds, and I would guess about 43 or 44 inches tall. She said that he was too big for their MA (he said that he was uncomfortable) so I encouraged her to look at the Frontier, which is what we have, but I think that cost is an issue. Is there a link or article that I can direct her to in order to help convince her to switch him back to a harnessed seat? Of added concern is that he does have behavioral issues, making it less likely that he's ready for a booster.

thx!

[Joolsplus2]

The study's from Sweden in 1989, but I think it does apply to HBB's. What I would do in this case is just tell her that there ARE larger harnessing seats, and that if he's spending a lot of time leaning out of the seat, she should consider one of them. Here's a video to show how bad it is for a kid who's asleep out of the headwings or leaning forward that might convince her. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZZdwZHLvIQ&feature=related and, if she's already spent money on a booster, she may not want to spend a lot on a harnessed seat, the Evenflo Maestro is a nice cheap choice http://www.amazon.com/Evenflo-Maestro-Harness-Booster-Seat/dp/B002VUCB7M

[mommybug]

Thanks so much Jools! I really do appreciate all the help and advice you give on this board!

[DrSally]

Good video! I didn't know about the EF Maestro. I wonder if the height limit is lower than say, a GN. My sister doesn't want to buy another GN for her DH's truck, so is considering a plain booster. If it's something he'll eventually outgrow as a HBB and she'll have to buy another HBB eventually, then it might not be the best choice though. Hmmm.

[Joolsplus2]

The top slots of the Maestro are as tall as the GN. As a booster, it's not as tall as a GN. But the price is so low that the price of it plus a Turbo is actually less if you buy them on sale. And a no-back may be appropriate for a 50lb 7 year old who's too tall for the Maestro harness, too..

[DrSally]

As a booster, it's not as tall as a GN. But the price is so low that the price of it plus a Turbo is actually less if you buy them on sale.

That's what I was wondering. I'll fwd the info for her to give her a below $100 option for harnessing longer. Thanks!

[jse107]

Just getting back to my original post and I wanted to say thank you to everyone for the thoughtful replies!

I think that we'll leave DS harnessed for a little while longer and then as we get closer to his 6th birthday this summer we'll start with the seatbelt.

[pb&j]

DS (4, 40 lbs) is in a booster in my mom's car. She and my dad aren't so great at seat installs, and need to take the carseat out pretty frequently, especially since we have a RF seat for DD in their car. DS is extremely well-behaved and safety-conscious in the car (he reminds me to use both hands on the steering wheel, lol). I decided it would be safer to have him in a HBB with the seatbelt correctly positioned than it would be to have him in a seat that may or may not be correctly installed.

But, FTR, he's harnessed in DH's and my cars, and will hopefully remain so for at least another year.