Does anyone wanna discuss the "fat flier" issue?

[Fairy]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/02/17/airlines.large.fliers/index.html?hpt=T2

I'll come out and say that as an overweight person, I get serious anxiety every time I board a plane until I get that seatbelt buckled across my lap. I'm 20 lbs. heavier now than I was at this time last year, and that has me even more worried than usual about getting on my flight on Friday. In light of the issue made very prescient by Kevin Smith's episode yesterday, I am definitely in the "fat flier" category. And I guess unless you're like me you may not understand what it's like, but being overweight is the worst class of discriminated people. Black, white, tall, short, ugly, pretty, or pretty ugly, being overweight is an equal opportunity hater, and believe me, people hate fat people. It's not like I choose to be this way, and to tell me "just don't put the food in your mouth! Just make time for the gym!" is to not understand. Luckily, I tend to carry my weight quite well, and no one would guess in a million years how much I actually weigh. But I'm not small, and I see how people look at me and know they're like not next to me ... don't let her be next to me! Then again, when I'm with DS, maybe it's more don't let me be next to the kid! But, my point is that being heavy is to be discriminated against, and unfortunately, I and those like me are just used to it.

For flights, only two times in my life have I not been able to buckle the seatbelt. Three years ago (when I was 30 lbs lighter yet still heavy), I was on a huge 777. I was in an average seat on the aisle somewhere in United Economy Plus (that's plus as in more room between you and the seat in front of you, not for plus sized people). The belt was WAY short, by at least an inch. I fly alot, and this was a shorter belt for whatever reason. I couldn't get it clicked no matter what I did. Luckily, they still had blankets in coach then, and I was in the deep throes of dramamine, so I was able to but the belt over me, put on my blanket, and sleep it off for three horus wihout detection. However, on a recent flight under my coat as a blanket, a flight attendant WOKE ME to say, "excuse me ma'am, but I need to see that you're buckled. Which I was. She didn't do it to DH next to me, who was under a bag, nor did I see her asking anyone else. Why? I really believe she was thinking I was a "fat flier" who was, well, doing what I did the other time. But why single me out when other people's belts could not be seen other than to humiliate me, especially when I was sleeping and had to wake me to do it?! The other time I couldn't buckle was about two years ago in first class. I was just in shock that I couldn't get the damn thing to reach across. I was able to suck and twist and basically contort and get it done, but DH was next to me, so I was free to impinge on him while I did the contorting, and I got it buckled. I later learned that seatbelts do not increase in length when the width of the seat increases -- like that of first class. So, I'm now leery to sit in first (we get alot of upgrades due to having tons of miles) because I know I have ZERO wiggle room on the seatbelt!

I'll also mention a time that I got on with DS and his carseat, I was the first to board, and I immediately asked for an extender. She looked at me with a look that clearly said to me well of course she's going to need an extender," and handed it over. I felt immediately naked and said, "it's for the CARSEAT." And she then said, "Oh!" with shock in her voice. Like have you never had a parent with a carseat ask for an extender?! You just immediately see me as the fat chick before you see me as the parent with a carseat?

So, all this said, I know I'm a bigger girl. And I I truly do understand that a passenger next to me does not want to have their personal space impinged on by their overweight neighbor. But I can and do put the armrests down. I can't let you [I]have the armrest, but I can put it down. It's not like my arms's in your lap, and whether seat neighbors are skinny or heavy, only one is going to get the armrest anyway, so that's not size-related. And putting us in a category called "fat flier" (that's what it's called), well why is there not a "stinky flier" category? Why should I have to endure your BO? Why is that ok? Altho I do have a good story about a flight my husband took last year where they were delayed due to BO, and I'm not kidding, maintenance had to be called in. Anyway ...

I do think that in general, heavy people are discriminated against on flights. I do think that the seats are too narrow for the average American. It's not about what size our asses ideally should be, it's about what they realistically are, and therefore, I feel that seats should be made wider by a good couple inches. I also think that overweight people are discriminated against so much that we've become used to it and just have learned to process it and deal with it in a way that we're just numb to the hurt now. But the humiliation of dealing with it on a plane opens the wound every single time. You'll never ever get me on another regional prop where I was made to move around till they were happy with the weight balance. That was humiliation to the nth degree. And that was college when I was still in a size 16!

I'm with Kevin Smith on this one. I know lots of people will disagree with me and have a viewpoint as the neighbor of the "fat flier." But this is where I'm at on this.

[o_mom]

I don't have any answers. People can be so mean and insensitive. :hug:

[AnnieW625]

Great post, and I too agree with Kevin Smith. He was right to be pissed off. If that were me I'd be pissed too. This is one thing I never talk about though or would dare ask my overweight friends or family members how they handle it; it's soo personal and I'd feel akward asking. I too agree that airline seats are too narrow for the average American. I am not obese, but even at my ideal weight (which was about 20lbs less than my pre pregnancy weight when I got pregnant w/ #2) I always thought there could be more seat room in the coach seats too, esp. for longer flights.

[MamaMolly]

I had a colleague who, while pregnant over 20 years ago, had to get on the luggage scales at the airport because the ticket agent thought she'd be too fat to get on the plane. Not too far along in her pregnancy, but too heavy.

[DrSally]

I think they should stop shrinking the sizes of the seats and rows! It's not really comfortable for anyone these days.

[soontobe]

I had a colleague who, while pregnant over 20 years ago, had to get on the luggage scales at the airport because the ticket agent thought she'd be too fat to get on the plane. Not too far along in her pregnancy, but too heavy.

that's disgusting! since when is there a human weight limit to fly?

[pb&j]

FYI, I used to be an airline captain. Flight crews have seatbelt extenders for use by larger passengers. Back in my day, if I saw someone who even remotely looked like they might have trouble buckling, I'd just discreetly slip them the extender. Occasionally, there were pax who would ask for the extender as soon as they boarded. But if I had the ability, I never put someone in the position of having to struggle or ask.

And FTR, I am at my goal weight and *I* think airline seats are too narrow. Can't imagine what it's like to be heavier and trying to fit into them.

[sste]

Oh fairy, there is awful discrimination. In my former career in private industry, it was extraordinarily rare to see anyone hired into the office that was not both reasonably attractive and slim (also needed credentials up the wazoo that alone was usually not enough). There was exactly one very, very seriously overweight person at that firm and I always tried to work with him because I guess, rightly, that he must be the bomb in terms of his skills to have overcome that discrimination. I once flew with him for business and there was no hope of armrest down and quite frankly he would have been booted off the plane if I was not his seatmate, pretty petite, and uncomplaining. I could tell he was so upset and embarrassed. I felt awful for him.

My personal feeling is that I am fine with anyone of any size next to me for a 2.5 or so hour flight or less. I have to confess that for longer flights I start to feel a little downcast about being crowded and I think I would be very uncomfortable and unhappy if it was a 10 plus hour international/overseas flight.

I agree the seats are getting ridiculously narrow. I wonder if one partial solution is to offer steeply discounted first class/business class tickets to people over certain dimensions? Not perfect but I don't see the airlines making the seats wider universally . . .

[ThreeofUs]

I think they should stop shrinking the sizes of the seats and rows! It's not really comfortable for anyone these days.


Absolutely!! Good post, Hil.

[TwinFoxes]

Well, I think there's a lot of cruelty directed at fat people which is seen as perfectly acceptable. I had a friend who was overweight who ordered a salad with regular dressing and the guy looked at her with a smirk and said "you mean light dressing?" So rude. I think Kevin Smith had a right to be pissed, because he can put the armrests down, etc. Same for you.

I dunno about the seats being too small for the average American. The average sized American woman is 14 I think. That's me now (thanks, babies.) I don't find the seats luxurious, but they're not uncomfortable, I don't get poked by armrests or anything. I'd like for them to be bigger, but airlines are barely making it as it is, they're trying to make all the extra $$ by squeezing in extra seats. I don't see that changing any time soon. :(

As far as flying with a fat person as a seatmate, my DH is very slender, and he's often been the one who has the fat guy next to him lift the armrest without apology and take up part of DH's seat. That's not really fair. But is it fair to make him pay for another seat just because he's heavy? I don't think so.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

[DrSally]

I have a friend who does obesity research and she says that fat is the last acceptable realm of discrimination.

[infomama]

I think they should stop shrinking the sizes of the seats and rows! It's not really comfortable for anyone these days.
:yeahthat:.

[Fairy]

I have a friend who does obesity research and she says that fat is the last acceptable realm of discrimination.

And I can tell you from experience that this sounds right to me.

[arivecchi]

My sis is overweight and she has gone through some of the same issues F. I am always so sad for her. She is definitely not overweight by choice. Thanks for posting this so that people are aware of how they make overweight people feel when they look at them a certain way or appear upset when they are seated next to an overweight person on a plane. BO like you point out is waaaay worse in my book.

[lizzywednesday]

I usually end up in the middle and, while I am no longer svelte (HA! I think the last time I could use that word about myself, I was 8) let me tell you that it is HIGHLY unpleasant to be stuck in the middle seat PERIOD and downright insane when you're stuck between your overweight DH and some random heavy dude, even when you're on JetBlue, which has wider seats.

That said, Kev has a point. It's also horrible that it took KEVIN SMITH to bring attention to this kind of treatment of people on any airline, much less Southwest ... who's had to contend with poor customer relations in the recent past. (I am thinking about that girl who was banned from boarding a flight in the past couple of years for the dress she was wearing; wasn't that Southwest who booted her?)

My DH and I are big people. There's no way around it. But we shudder to think that we'd end up being discriminated against because of our sizes, something we are working on at the moment (although being pregnant doesn't exactly afford me the same workout options), it's not going to change the fact that EVEN AT MY FITTEST I have wide hips, heavy thighs and broad shoulders. The broad shoulders are actually the worst part about flying certain airlines because there's no way in heck I can get comfortable. And I hate flying enough as it is!!!!

[elektra]

The seats are way too narrow and shallow. Both my dad and brother have to do whatever they can to get the aisle because they are such large people. They are not way overweight but they are very tall and solidly built. So the discrimination does not come into play with them as it does for overweight people, but they still have such problems fitting into the seats. People are just bigger than what the seats allow for! And it's true, you really have to take people as they are, regardless of what might be perceived as what's in their control and what isn't.
I think they just need to make the seats bigger because buying another seat just isn't fair when SO many people are feeling the squeeze. And I also think it isn't fair to a passenger to have their own seat impeded upon by someone larger, with longer legs, stinkier, whatever. For example, I do not RF my car seats on planes because I feel like the person in front of me should be able to recline. However, if the seats were not so shallow, this wouldn't be an issue. I know it's a business and all that, but I feel like the airlines should really accommodate people better. DH got a bloodclot in his leg on a long flight partly because he could barely move in his middle seat. He is overweight and is always worried about impeding on others' space. He is the one adamant about the carseat thing on the planes actually, and it probably comes from his own issues with not wanting to bother the other passengers.

[michellerw]

Fairy, thank you for bringing this up.

I also think that this is a uniquely sexist issue because of the way that women are most likely to carry weight. I'm a big girl -- not super big, but above average -- I wear about a size 18 or 20. But I carry my weight in my hips and butt, which means I spread across those itty bitty airline seats. IME, most men are more likely to carry their weight in their middles.

When DH and I flew to Jamaica in November, when I was 6 mos pregnant, I barely was able to buckle the seatbelt low across my hips and below the baby bump, the way I was supposed to, between the extra pregnancy weight and my general extra weight. It frankly really made me anxious.

[ncat]

I am long-legged and broad shouldered and frequently uncomfortable flying though I am "only" a size 12. I think that airline seats ought to be required to fit minimally 95% of the population they serve comfortably, and they do not.

I was really amused by the new coverage of Kevin Smith's incident when the newscaster said that Southwest (and other airlines) policy is for overweight passengers to buy a second seat, TYPICALLY adjacent to their seat. Seriously, where else could a second seat possibly be?

[tmarie]

I just wanted to say this was a great topic. I am not in the overweight category right this minute, but my dh, mom and best friend are, and I immediately thought of all of them. As pp's commented, it's such a sensitive subject I haven't even broached it with them. My mom lives 16 hours away and hates to fly recently...she says its the security measures but I wonder if its her ability to be comfortable on the plane or if she has run into this kind of discrimination. It's heartbreaking to think about someone giving my 75yo mom, who suffers from debilitating rheumatoid arthritis, a hard time about her size. It is ridiculous given that they haven't come up with a better solution or adjusted their seats. If they are going to actually kick people off planes, the very least they could do is publish firm weight or measurement guidelines so people will know ahead of their trip, if they need to purchase another seat. But again, I think the real solution is redesigning the seats.

tmarie

[codex57]

There's no easy answer. Sure, I'm not in the fluffy category and even I think the seats are too small. However, the plane is only a certain size. It's easy to say, "oh, just make it bigger." Problem is, these planes cost billions of dollars and they're expected to run 30+ yrs. Plus, they're built for the worldwide market. With cars, that don't cost that much individually, you can make a car for the American market. Not that simple with airplanes. And with profits as low as they are, they need to maximize profits out of each flight.

So yeah, the fluffier are discriminated against. However, unlike most other things, the airlines just don't have many options. As desperate for customers as airlines are, they're gonna do what they can to keep the majority happy. Yes, many (most?) of the fluffier are aware of their size and do what they can to avoid annoying seatmates. However, not all do. And some, even tho they try, physically encroach into a neighbor's seat area. Yes, they didn't mean to, but the neighbor is still being encroached upon. Something's gotta give somewhere, so airlines are choosing to target the extra fluffy cuz there are fewer of them.

Southwest is a bit more extreme in ejecting some customers to avoid annoying the rest, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. It's their choice to proactively do something for the majority of their passengers, rather than the nonoffensive choice of ignoring any potential problems. They've got the cojones to do this b/c unlike most other airlines, they're otherwise known for good customer service/policies and have rabidly loyal fans.

With airplanes, there's just no easy solution. So while it is true that the fluffy are discriminated against, the airline industry is sort of a unique situation. If you've got a solution, I'm sure the airlines would LOVE to hear it.

[mama2g03]

BO like you point out is waaaay worse in my book.

:yeahthat:

Or, better yet, drunk and obnoxious.

[rlu]

If you've got a solution, I'm sure the airlines would LOVE to hear it.

tmarie hit it on the nose. Advising all passengers before purchase of tickets of the max measurements allowed per seat. Weight is not a good measurement (unless a small plane or helicopter which do have weight concerns) as weight is not distributed on everyone the same way. DH is not a small guy but it is the shoulder breadth and leg room, not the lapbelt, that causes issues.

[codex57]

tmarie hit it on the nose. Advising all passengers before purchase of tickets of the max measurements allowed per seat. Weight is not a good measurement (unless a small plane or helicopter which do have weight concerns) as weight is not distributed on everyone the same way. DH is not a small guy but it is the shoulder breadth and leg room, not the lapbelt, that causes issues.

And if they do that, then what (the info is actually available due to the internet, but it can be publicized better)? Some people still aren't going to fit. Or, some people are going to be right at the limit. Someone still is going to have to make a judgment call and draw the line somewhere.

Like you said, people are shaped differently. What if they can get the armrest down, but their thighs cross well over? Or their shoulders/upper torso?

[JBaxter]

I was unaware that the airlines are making smaller seats. ( seriously I wasnt... not being snarky) If the seats have been the same size why are the airlines required loose money by making larger seats ( less seats) when larger people can either buy first class seats ( they seemed larger when I sat in them) or even in extreme cases 2 seats. I know it costs more but if you dont fit you dont fit. My MIL was a large woman for many years (5ft1in and 300lbs at her heaviest) She did fly in first class when she had to fly. She is now much smaller and has no issues.

Im not trying to me mean spirited but I guess I dont understand NOW if the airline is making smaller seats to try to get more people on I do understand. Is that the case?

[crl]

I don't have an answer.

I do know that I am just a bit claustrophobic (as in I CAN NOT have covers over my head or I feel like I can't breathe, etc). And I get ansty on planes because I'm stuck and can't get off. If someone encroaches on my space, it makes me even worse. Even if it's just DH leaning over against me. I remember sitting next to a man who overflowed into my seat once. I had to struggle to keep calm for the relatively short flight. So even though I sympathize with people who have trouble fitting in the seat they paid for, I really, really, really need to have all of the space I paid for.

And my view is that if you are flying next to a stranger, no one should get the arm rest. It's like the demilitarized zone between north and south Korea--it belongs to no one and no one should be in it.

Catherine

[codex57]

Actually, seat width hasn't gotten smaller to my knowledge. Like I said earlier, these planes are built to last decades. They may upgrade interiors, but they really are trying to provide options for more room. It's just that change isn't that fast or that simple for a variety of reasons. Plus, the rest of the world doesn't have quite the fluffiness problem that the US does which adds to the problem.

Where airlines have been shrinking, and which can lead to the feeling of a lot less room, is that they're decreasing the pitch. Meaning, they can fit more seats in from front to back. The width has been the same though.

[Fairy]

There's no easy answer. Sure, I'm not in the fluffy category and even I think the seats are too small. However, the plane is only a certain size. It's easy to say, "oh, just make it bigger." Problem is, these planes cost billions of dollars and they're expected to run 30+ yrs. Plus, they're built for the worldwide market. With cars, that don't cost that much individually, you can make a car for the American market. Not that simple with airplanes. And with profits as low as they are, they need to maximize profits out of each flight.

You make good points. Two comments here. First, plane design. Planes are designed with years-long timeframes. Just like technology has built-in obsolescence on purpose(so that it's not that you want a new phone in three years but need one), it's not at all by accident that planes are the size they are. They were designed that way, and the size of the seats were thought of on the front-end of the planning and design phases, not the backend in the build and test phases. There are all different sizes of planes for all different reasons, but the size of the seats are a factor in the planning, not the other way around with size of seats dependent on size of the plane. If you want something done a certain way, then you have to plan it at the very front end, and the fact that seats are the size they are is very very on purpose and, therefore, discriminatory by their very nature to heavy people, intentional or otherwise notwithstanding. If the airline industry truly cared about all of their potential customers or at least most of them, then they would consider the overweight people like me to be just as important. As for needing to maximize profits -- read: shove as many seats on a plane as possible -- I understand that the airline industry is desperate right now. But that's just too damn bad. Find another way, like stop paying your CEO's millions and put that back into the salaries of your woefully underpaid employees or add flights or go from 3/3 to 2/3 and increase the seat widths, instead. I mean, they were able to make economy plus so that there's more leg room, so what's the diff?


And some, even tho they try, physically encroach into a neighbor's seat area. Yes, they didn't mean to, but the neighbor is still being encroached upon. Something's gotta give somewhere, so airlines are choosing to target the extra fluffy cuz there are fewer of them.

You are right that seat neighbors have the right not to be encroached upon. But what of a person's leg drifting off into my personal leg space? What about a sleepy head lolling a bit too far to the side so that I'm suddenly in the same airspace? Speaking of air, I hate the air vents, which are germ factories. Even if mine's off, if yours is on, then I'm getting some of that, and how is that fair to me? We don't have special rules for those folks. So, if some of my ass has meandered over to yours, I think that's the same category.


With airplanes, there's just no easy solution. So while it is true that the fluffy are discriminated against, the airline industry is sort of a unique situation. If you've got a solution, I'm sure the airlines would LOVE to hear it.

I think that solutions are a choice. They are choosing to have no easy solution. And it's not my job to come up with one, I'm the customer. It's THEIRS.


tmarie hit it on the nose. Advising all passengers before purchase of tickets of the max measurements allowed per seat. Weight is not a good measurement (unless a small plane or helicopter which do have weight concerns) as weight is not distributed on everyone the same way. DH is not a small guy but it is the shoulder breadth and leg room, not the lapbelt, that causes issues.

Not sure about this. How are we going to enforce it, by measuring me? Where are you measuring, the flat of my ass, or around my hips? Is that sitting or standing? Are you going to have mock seats out for testing like at amusement parks? Do I need to do a test sit? Who's the authority of the testing, me or them? If my ass fits in teh seat but my arm has to have the armrest, do I pass or fail? How do I know until I'm at the airport, and then what do we do about my ticket? what if I fit when I bought my ticket but I gained 10 lbs in the two months since and now I don't fit? Also, for a fat girl, measuring and weighing is a punishment worse than death. WORSE THAN DEATH. Nothing strikes fear in the heart of a heavy person, male or female (but more female due to the sheer intolerability of a fat girl) than the knowledge that someone other then we and we alone will have to see the results of scale. That is why people on The Biggest Loser get all the credit in the world from me. They're telling the world they're 300 lbs. That's anathema to people like me.

[Fairy]

I was unaware that the airlines are making smaller seats. ( seriously I wasnt... not being snarky) If the seats have been the same size why are the airlines required loose money by making larger seats ( less seats) when larger people can either buy first class seats ( they seemed larger when I sat in them) or even in extreme cases 2 seats. I know it costs more but if you dont fit you dont fit. My MIL was a large woman for many years (5ft1in and 300lbs at her heaviest) She did fly in first class when she had to fly. She is now much smaller and has no issues.

Im not trying to me mean spirited but I guess I dont understand NOW if the airline is making smaller seats to try to get more people on I do understand. Is that the case?

Why should I be discriminated against if I don't fit in a seat that was designed with the express understanding at the front end of the design process that heavy people would not fit in them? Why not make bigger seats to fit a larger average? If you don't fit you don't fit is not acceptable. I'm a human being. I have as much right as the next guy to fly. If a person in a wheelchair were told their only option to get down the stairs was to use the actual stairs, and if you can't walk you can't walk, so find someone to carry you, that would be unacceptable. NOT because of the Persons with Disabilities Act, but becasue of the sheer unhumane nature of it.

[HIU8]

:yeahthat: the last time I flew in January, I felt like the seats were a lot narrower than they used to be. Of course, I also felt like there was more legroom on the planes jetblue used compared to when I flew spirit in august.

[Fairy]

I don't have an answer.

I do know that I am just a bit claustrophobic (as in I CAN NOT have covers over my head or I feel like I can't breathe, etc). And I get ansty on planes because I'm stuck and can't get off. If someone encroaches on my space, it makes me even worse. Even if it's just DH leaning over against me. I remember sitting next to a man who overflowed into my seat once. I had to struggle to keep calm for the relatively short flight. So even though I sympathize with people who have trouble fitting in the seat they paid for, I really, really, really need to have all of the space I paid for.

And my view is that if you are flying next to a stranger, no one should get the arm rest. It's like the demilitarized zone between north and south Korea--it belongs to no one and no one should be in it.

Catherine

You make a very good point on the claustrophobia issue. For me and my vomiting issue due to airsickness, I take dramamine or wear sea bands cuz it's my problem. I'm not sure if you can medicate your issue away, so I feel for you on that one cuz that's gotta suck on an airplane. Talk about captive audience. I'm not with you on the armrest, tho; I don't see it as a demilitarized zone, plus it usually contains things like headphone ports and audio controls.

[sste]

Maybe air lines could have a cardboard figure that you go stand up against (it could even be on a height adjustable lever) and see if you spill over the outlines of the figure. All done discreetly and privately BEHIND one of those room divider type things. Kind of like those things for physically checking if your luggage meets the dimensions. The only thing is that you would need to check in advance or just know from past experience the different airlines requirements before buying a ticket.

I do think it is MUCH nicer to not charge for two seats or not charge for an upgrade so long as it is not a sold out flight.

Or in designing these planes can't they make a couple of seats extra wide (sold at a slight mark-up) and a couple a little narrower (and sold at a slight discount) - -narrower seats going to kids or teens or very petite women.

[codex57]

Those are great suggestions. I just don't see how to implement them at the airports and airlines I fly.

I think one of the main goals is to avoid embarrassing a larger passenger. The simple act of asking them to go up against a cardboard cut out is embarrassing. In today's world of e-tickets, an agent is still gonna have to size up potential fliers and call them out to go up against the cutout. Now, frequent fliers can preempt that by volunteering, but infrequent fliers or first time ones wouldn't and you'd have that problem.

Plus, at the airports I fly out, there's not a lot of room at the waiting areas. I'm not sure where to stick a closed off area at many airports. I mean, you'd have to have a space at each gate to make it logistically practical. A central area means too much running around and chance for screwups.

As for wide and narrow seats, planes run at such capacities now that airlines can't really afford to risk having one of those seats unsold. A similar idea is brought up in the kids on a plane argument. Airlines won't do a kids section cuz they can't guarantee they'll have enough people take up that section. And, they can also run the risk of a flight with too many kids and you lose that benefit then too.

[wellyes]

You are right that seat neighbors have the right not to be encroached upon. But what of a person's leg drifting off into my personal leg space? What about a sleepy head lolling a bit too far to the side so that I'm suddenly in the same airspace? Speaking of air, I hate the air vents, which are germ factories. Even if mine's off, if yours is on, then I'm getting some of that, and how is that fair to me? We don't have special rules for those folks. So, if some of my ass has meandered over to yours, I think that's the same category. I hear you. But -- there has to be a limit, right? I don't know what size Kevin Smith is now, but if he is basically the size he was in his movies, then that doesn't seem that big to me. Throw a rock in any direction in Disney World & you'll hit a guy that size. Camryn Manheim sized woman? No way. But Ruby Gettinger (http://www.realitytvscoop.com/images/gallery/ruby-gettinger-photo.png)pre-weight-loss? At some point, you're just too big to reasonably fit in a airplane seat...... I don't know where the line belongs, but I think there has to be one. I also think the same rule that would apply to a 400+ pound person should apply to anyone 6'6" and up too.

[codex57]

I've seen Kevin Smith change fairly dramatically in size. I didn't get a chance to see him now though.

[alien_host]

I don't have an answer either. Although Jet Blue charges extra if you want the extra leg room seats, maybe airlines could put in some wider seats like a PP mentioned and charge extra. But...


And my view is that if you are flying next to a stranger, no one should get the arm rest. It's like the demilitarized zone between north and south Korea--it belongs to no one and no one should be in it.

Catherine

this is funny because I NEVER get the second armrest while I am flying. Yes, I'm petite but I think every stranger automatically assumes they can have the "second" armrest because "I don't need it"...DH is guilty of this too, although I can just shove his arm off if I wanted...or share it.

[Fairy]

I hear you. But -- there has to be a limit, right? I don't know what size Kevin Smith is now, but if he is basically the size he was in his movies, then that doesn't seem that big to me. Throw a rock in any direction in Disney World & you'll hit a guy that size. Camryn Manheim sized woman? No way. But Ruby Gettinger (http://www.realitytvscoop.com/images/gallery/ruby-gettinger-photo.png)pre-weight-loss? At some point, you're just too big to reasonably fit in a airplane seat...... I don't know where the line belongs, but I think there has to be one. I also think the same rule that would apply to a 400+ pound person should apply to anyone 6'6" and up too.

You're right. There has to be a line. I don't know where it is, and I agree with all you've said here and the examples. Kevin is larger now than in Silent Bob but not at the Ruby level. I'm more Camrynish than Ruby, but from a line perspective, where do we draw the line? I don't know. But I know that what we've got going right now? Not working.

[sste]

OK Codex, my problem-solver orientation just cannot rest here!! What about the airlines creating the body limit cut-out on very thin paper rather than cardboard, folding it up and mailing it to those who request it. Then the person could spread it out on the ground in their home.

I suppose airlines are paranoid about ever having an unsold seat but the reality is that many, many flights are undersold and there is usually at least one petite person or child on the flight who might appreciate $30 bucks or something off their ticket to take a narrower seat. But, if that won't work, what about the airlines creating some web site that tracks how undersold various flights are and (non-binding) projections based on past flight data for those routes/dates/times and the pattern in the bookings - - maybe a likely will be sold out, likely will be near sold out, unlikely to be fully sold out, several empty seats anticipated. Or even a private website doing this? That would at least reduce this problem by allowing fluffy passengers to plan flights that are at lower risk of being sold out. And airlines could allow priority access for free to an extra unsold seat to fluffy passengers.

[JBaxter]

Why should I be discriminated against if I don't fit in a seat that was designed with the express understanding at the front end of the design process that heavy people would not fit in them? Why not make bigger seats to fit a larger average? If you don't fit you don't fit is not acceptable. I'm a human being. I have as much right as the next guy to fly. If a person in a wheelchair were told their only option to get down the stairs was to use the actual stairs, and if you can't walk you can't walk, so find someone to carry you, that would be unacceptable. NOT because of the Persons with Disabilities Act, but becasue of the sheer unhumane nature of it.

The airlines DO have options. 1st class seats/economy plus are bigger OR you have the option of purchasing 2 seats OR you can drive or take a bus or boat. The seats havent changed sizes. ( Which I really thought was happeneing) People butts have gotten bigger.
It will cost more for travel if you need special accomadations. Im really sorry you get uncomfortable in the size seats provided in coach.

[Fairy]

I love that you're a problem-solver, sste!!! I don't think the mail-order cutout thing will work, but I like the genuine attempt and its sensitivity!

I want to stress that my "fat flier" issue is not really as much about the fact that heavy people have these issues. It's that I believe these issues are created with that full disclosure already known by the designers of planes, and I think that sensitivity is half the battle. You are never going to be able to cater to 100% of the population on anything, cuz that's just not possible. But heavy people are discriminated against in the worst way. We're thought of as less important. Unworthy. And the public treatment of people like what happened on Kevin Smith's flight shows the insensitivity. He was seated. He was buckled. His seat neighbor has no complaints at all whatsoever. And they ejected him anyway. Maybe cuz someone hated Dogma. Maybe another reason, who knows, but the insensitivty of it all is the thing that just kicks you in the gut.

[JBaxter]

OK Codex, my problem-solver orientation just cannot rest here!! What about the airlines creating the body limit cut-out on very thin paper rather than cardboard, folding it up and mailing it to those who request it. Then the person could spread it out on the ground in their home.

I suppose airlines are paranoid about ever having an unsold seat but the reality is that many, many flights are undersold and there is usually at least one petite person or child on the flight who might appreciate $30 bucks or something off their ticket to take a narrower seat. But, if that won't work, what about the airlines creating some web site that tracks how undersold various flights are and (non-binding) projections based on past flight data for those routes/dates/times and the pattern in the bookings - - maybe a likely will be sold out, likely will be near sold out, unlikely to be fully sold out, several empty seats anticipated. Or even a private website doing this? That would at least reduce this problem by allowing fluffy passengers to plan flights that are at lower risk of being sold out. And airlines could allow priority access for free to an extra unsold seat to fluffy passengers.

Kind of like when they allow you to use an extra seat for a lap baby?

[Fairy]

The airlines DO have options. 1st class seats/economy plus are bigger OR you have the option of purchasing 2 seats OR you can drive or take a bus or boat. The seats havent changed sizes. ( Which I really thought was happeneing) People butts have gotten bigger.
It will cost more for travel if you need special accomadations. Im really sorry you get uncomfortable in the size seats provided in coach.

Totally get your point. Seat sizes do differ depending on the airline you're taking, however. I'm a United girl. Economy plus is not bigger seats, you just get more leg room, but it doesn't help with the width. I don't have a problem with someone being literally too big to fit in a seat having to purchase a second seat. But alot of these issues are judgment calls from FAs with bad judgment, and some of the guidelines are, IMO, discriminatory to begin with.

[codex57]

The cutout won't work for infrequent/first time fliers. They won't know to request it. Shoot, people still come to the airport without passports, with large containers of liquids, etc. Still, keep brainstorming cuz it's not like the problem will go away if we ignore it.

Similarly, we do need better guidelines. The problem is, it has to be idiot proof (or as near as possible). Airline employees have a hard enough time just figuring out their companies' computer system (not always their fault either). Judgment calls are something arbitrary so it needs to be dumbed down as much as possible to avoid horrible mistakes. Mistakes (or intentional stuff) is gonna happen, but you wanna cut down as much as you can. It's just that since it's inherently so arbitrary, I dunno how you come up with a better policy that works.

Still, I have higher expectations for airline employees than the TSA. That's an agency that just needs to go away. Nothing they do even has much security to it, and they insult all passengers while doing nothing. Plus, even if they had better guidelines, their employees are so poorly trained that they're too stupid/arrogant to follow them. Even when shown the policies in writing.

[AnnieW625]

I've seen Kevin Smith change fairly dramatically in size. I didn't get a chance to see him now though.

I was quite surprised when I saw his photo online too. I remember him being "tubby" as (he wrote for his counter part Jay to call him) Silent Bob in the View Askew movies, but he is much larger now. Do I have a different opinion of him because he is more over weight? Hell no I don't. He's still a really funny and brilliant film maker, writer, and well actor too:).

---
About 5 pages of responses ago someone wrote about being lucky to get aisle seats with Jet Blue. That crazy airline charges for seats in the middle of the plane because they have more leg room. I don't go for that at all. It irritates me to end that they feel they can do this. I know they aren't the only one who does that, but still it's not a good practice IMHO, esp. for an airline that only offers one class of service. As many issues as Southwest has C/S wise each seat on their plane is the same price and the only preference is for frequent fliers which I believe is more than fair. Also I am pretty sure that they still offer pre boarding for those with kids less than 4; but that could also be set by the on ground flight crew too.

FWIW Jet Blue flies Airbus A320 (most of what is done for 2 hr. or longer flights or very busy commuter flights) and Canada Air Jets (can't remember the name), which are smaller and only have two rows of seats on each side, but seat between 80 and 90 people. Those are used for less busy commuter flights and flights in length from 1 to 1/1/2 hrs.

[kcandz]

However, if the seats were not so shallow, this wouldn't be an issue. I know it's a business and all that, but I feel like the airlines should really accommodate people better.

I agree - I think the airlines got so focused on squeezing so many dollars by shrinking seats to sit more per flight, but now people are so uncomfortable they re-think if they want to fly at all. It isn't worth it with all the extra security, etc. Maybe if the flight itself were more comfortable people would want to fly more. For example, if I want to fly to LA from San Francisco, with the extra security, etc it is the same amount of hours to drive or fly. But I drive because it is less headache and more comfortable.

I can't believe how the industry tries to drive away people: keeping them trapped on tarmacs for hours, discontinuing food, running out of food, making people pay to bring their luggage and now actively humiliating and removing paying customers? It is insane.

PP on this thread keep mentioning JetBlue having more comfortable seats, relatively speaking. That airline is one of the few doing well in this economy. I would think competitors might look at that and catch a clue.

Are coach seats on foreign planes the same? Like AirFrance etc? Just curious.

[mamicka]

I don't know who this Kevin Smith is so I can't say anything about his situation. But this is an issue near & dear to my heart - the discrimination of overweight people in general.

I think this is a problem that creeps into all parts of society, not just air travel. I don't have any solutions or even suggestions, but this is one of those things that I can't see ever changing by force. What I mean by that is I think individual people have to decide to change & then we'll see companies treating larger people more humanely. It's sad.

[wellyes]

Kevin Smith wrote and directed many profane classics - Clerks was first and I think Dogma was his best.

Kevin Smith 1990s: http://images.fandango.com/images/commentator/clerks21.jpg
Kevin Smith today: http://www.spreadit.org/pics/Kevin-Smith.jpg

[Zansu]

A few specific suggestions from a frequent, plus-sized flyer:

- Buy your own seatbelt extender. They're about $20
- Sit in the seats with the the solid dividers (usually the bulkhead and the exit row) so you don't ooze into anyone else's space. This may require you to have status on the airline. Do WHATEVER you have to do to earn status.


Southwest's policy is that POS (Passengers of Size) have to buy two tickets, But they will refund the second ticket if there's an empty seat on the plane. Kevin Smith actually did buy two tickets for his scheduled flight, but then went standby on an earlier flight that didn't have an extra seat. So Southwest enforced a rule that Smith complies with on a regular basis, but they screwed up allowing him to stand-by in the first place. Once they allowed him onboard as a standby, they should have left him alone. Instead, he suffered for their mistake.

[tmarie]

And if they do that, then what (the info is actually available due to the internet, but it can be publicized better)? Some people still aren't going to fit. Or, some people are going to be right at the limit. Someone still is going to have to make a judgment call and draw the line somewhere.

Like you said, people are shaped differently. What if they can get the armrest down, but their thighs cross well over? Or their shoulders/upper torso?

I completely agree with you!! I didn't mean that guidelines would be THE solution, I just meant until the airlines figure this out, they should provide some guidelines as to who they won't deem to fit. I have NO IDEA who is being affected by this and who needs to be worried about it when they go to get on a plane. For example, my dh is overweight, but I don't think he would qualify as clinically obese. Should we be worried the next time we go to fly that he could be pulled aside? I think it would be helpful for individuals, if they're worried about it, to get some kind of concrete information or guidance BEFORE they show up at the airport. If it were me, I'd want some kind of guidance in writing before I paid for plane tickets. Didn't mean to offend or upset anyone. Like I said before, I think plane seating needs to be redesigned and I think the way Southwest behaved last week was horrendous.

tmarie

[egoldber]

They were designed that way, and the size of the seats were thought of on the front-end of the planning and design phases, not the backend in the build and test phases.

This isn't exactly true. The planes themselves are, of course, designed with one body style. However, an Airbus A320 used by Delta (for example, I have no idea what planes Delta uses) can have a different seat configuration than an A320 used by United.

The airlines have flexibility in determining how many and of what size seats that want to use on an airplane that they purchase from the airplane manufacturer. They can set (within certain limits) the number of rows of seats and how many seats per row. A plane used for domestic travel generally has a different seat configuration than one used for international travel.

They can even change this over time. An airplane can be retrofitted to change it's seat configuration (as in when United started doing "Economy Plus" seating). And even then, there are slightly different styles. Some A320s will have 2 rows of seats considered exit rows, some will have 3 rows of seats, etc.

[mommylamb]

Kevin Smith wrote and directed many profane classics - Clerks was first and I think Dogma was his best.


No way! Clerks is his masterpiece! I also have a soft place in my heart for Chasing Amy.

[codex57]

I agree. Dogma seemed more like a pure money grab compared to his earlier films.

[Fairy]

This isn't exactly true. The planes themselves are, of course, designed with one body style. However, an Airbus A320 used by Delta (for example, I have no idea what planes Delta uses) can have a different seat configuration than an A320 used by United.

The airlines have flexibility in determining how many and of what size seats that want to use on an airplane that they purchase from the airplane manufacturer. They can set (within certain limits) the number of rows of seats and how many seats per row. A plane used for domestic travel generally has a different seat configuration than one used for international travel.

They can even change this over time. An airplane can be retrofitted to change it's seat configuration (as in when United started doing "Economy Plus" seating). And even then, there are slightly different styles. Some A320s will have 2 rows of seats considered exit rows, some will have 3 rows of seats, etc.

Planes are built with all manner of seat configurations in mind, and in order to establish configuration options, they must first design a seat, which inclues their width. None of this is done in a vacuum, it's done with input from stakeholders, which includes first and foremost, the actual airlines for whom the planes are designed and will then purchase the planes. So, this all begins with the design process, and the factoring in (or lack thereof) of heavy people in that design process is very purposeful, not an oversight.

[DrSally]

I was unaware that the airlines are making smaller seats. ( seriously I wasnt... not being snarky)

No, seats (and row width) have been shrinking and shrinking for the past several years in an effort to make more $$.

[oneplustwo]

I have not read through all the replies, but I just clicked on your link, Fairy. On a side bar was another link that I thought you should look at. It's about all the skinny minny runway models who are toppling over during the fashion shows this week. I think it's a combo of the ridiculously high heels (6 inches!?!) they're wearing, plus they must be faint from hunger, LOL.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/offbeat/2010/02/16/moos.fashion.falls.cnn

Watch the video. I howled. As a normal sized person (i.e. I weigh more than a third grade child), I took perverse pleasure in it.

[egoldber]

Planes are built with all manner of seat configurations in mind, and in order to establish configuration options, they must first design a seat, which inclues their width. None of this is done in a vacuum, it's done with input from stakeholders, which includes first and foremost, the actual airlines for whom the planes are designed and will then purchase the planes. So, this all begins with the design process, and the factoring in (or lack thereof) of heavy people in that design process is very purposeful, not an oversight.

My only point is that the design of the aircraft itself is somewhat independent of the seat configuration. The exact same aircraft can have different seating configurations: rows of seats that are closer together or farther apart, seats that are wider or narrower, there may or may not be a first class, etc. There are, of course, overall limits that the airline must comply with (an aircraft is built to hold a total amount of weight, including passengers and all cargo) but within those limits, the airlines have a fair amount of freedom to select different seating configurations. And some airlines are making the conscious choice to make the seats narrower to get more people onto the aircraft per flight.

[Fairy]

I have not read through all the replies, but I just clicked on your link, Fairy. On a side bar was another link that I thought you should look at. It's about all the skinny minny runway models who are toppling over during the fashion shows this week. I think it's a combo of the ridiculously high heels (6 inches!?!) they're wearing, plus they must be faint from hunger, LOL.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/offbeat/2010/02/16/moos.fashion.falls.cnn

Watch the video. I howled. As a normal sized person (i.e. I weigh more than a third grade child), I took perverse pleasure in it.

I love this reporter! Jeanne Moos is one of my CNN favorites. And can we talk about those Armadillo shoes? RIDICULOUS! Reminds me of a Star Trek book I read where Voyager encounters a culture where the higher status job you had, the higher and more ornately ridiculously impossible to balance on shoes you were entitled to wear. More status equalled less need to walk and more worker bees you had to do the walking for you.

[mom2binsd]

I'm not sure that I have any solutions to offer but the airlines need to handle this and other customer service issues with tact and respect for the customer who is the paying client! It's terrible that anyone should be treated as poorly as you were!!! It's a tough balancing act to make accomodations while keeping everyone happy.

On a positive note, I remember a flight where I was asked to change seats with another passenger, it wasn't made clear to me except that the flight attendant asked me if it was ok to change seats. I said ok (I was flying solo). I was given a seat in a two seat row with a plus sized woman and the passenger who they switched me with was a very tall man about 230lbs (I on the other hand was 4'11" and 100lbs, back then I was really tiny). Nothing was said as to why the change was necessary but the lady did say she appreciated me swapping seats. It was handled with dignity and I'm sure both of them were more comfortable. I was fine too.

It seems in society today that common sense and decency, and doing your job well is a thing of the past so often. In this recent case, if they had followed their own policies the situation would not have happened. And let's be realistic, the issue of the growing percentage of our population who is overweight for whatever reason (not my business) isn't going away soon, and the airlines need to figure out a solution.

[lizzywednesday]

I agree. Dogma seemed more like a pure money grab compared to his earlier films.

Have to disagree w/you all there. The pure money grab was Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and the preceding comic books.

Not that Kev has a problem with that, you understand, just saying.

(Also, I will sit and watch Mallrats until my eyes bleed. DH doesn't understand why. I also laugh in all the same places even though I know the film pretty much by heart. Oh yes, I was a mall rat as a teenager and I find certain segments to be the most hilarious things on Earth. Especially the part at the Route 1 market, which is now a Lowe's multiplex.)

ETA: I also remain one of maybe 5 people on the planet who sincerely loved Jersey Girl.

[KHF]

(Also, I will sit and watch Mallrats until my eyes bleed. DH doesn't understand why. I also laugh in all the same places even though I know the film pretty much by heart.

OMG, I thought I was the only person who adored this movie. It's seriously in my Top Ten Favorite Movies Ever list. Mostly because I continue to be completely in love with Jason Lee :heartbeat: I've loved him since he was just some random skateboarder. When he started acting I was a happy girl.

It is easily my favorite Kevin Smith movie, though I do love Clerks and Chasing Amy as well.

[AnnieW625]

No way! Clerks is his masterpiece! I also have a soft place in my heart for Chasing Amy.
Clerks is good because it was soo different than anything else that was happening in the movie scene in the early 1990s. I am not from central New Jersey, but kids being misfits like Silent Bob and Jay, as well as Randall were all too common in small to medium size America then. Teenage kids in college had jobs as convenient store clerks, and video store managers way more than they do now. It was real life and I think that (and the black and white filming is what made it soo good!). Chasing Amy is one of my favorites too.


I agree. Dogma seemed more like a pure money grab compared to his earlier films.
Respectfully disagree here. I loved Dogma! I personally think that in order to understand Dogma you have to have been Catholic or know someone who is Catholic and goes to mass regularly. If you aren't familiar with the way the Catholic church fundraises (Catholicism Wow! will make zero sense to you), the lack of good choirs (in many parishes), and the silly indoctrinations you just aren't going to get it. There were some stupid parts I didn't care for like the exploding toilet scene, but overall I think it was way more than just a commercial grab for money. I also own one of these Buddy Christs (http://jayandsilentbob.com/budchrisdass1.html) :)


Have to disagree w/you all there. The pure money grab was Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and the preceding comic books.

Not that Kev has a problem with that, you understand, just saying.

(Also, I will sit and watch Mallrats until my eyes bleed. DH doesn't understand why. I also laugh in all the same places even though I know the film pretty much by heart. Oh yes, I was a mall rat as a teenager and I find certain segments to be the most hilarious things on Earth. Especially the part at the Route 1 market, which is now a Lowe's multiplex.)

ETA: I also remain one of maybe 5 people on the planet who sincerely loved Jersey Girl.

Agree with this 100%! Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back was made on purpose to make fun of the movie scene in the early 2000s when it came out yes it was a pure money grab bag, but at least it was pretty hilarious and I think that Kevin Smith knew people were going to get him for that but by then he didn't care. He just wanted to make a fun movie people would see and he didn't give a cr@p about what the critics thought.

Lizzy, wow 2 out of 5 people who loved Jersey Girl are on this board!:) I loved it too and it's honestly really bad that it came out in the wake of the whole Gigli disaster, and the Jen/Ben relationship. Had it come out before all that I think it would've been thought of better.

ETA: I also love Mallrats! I thought about seeing it in the theater when it came out in 1995 and the main big people in the movie were one of the London twins, and Shannen Doherty. For whatever reason I never saw it and I have kicked myself eversince I did see about 2 yrs. later when DH and I started dating. I have always thought how cool it would've been to be able to say that I saw it in the theater. Ben Affleck has some really memorable lines in it too, and Silent Bob as Batman gets me every time!

[mommylamb]

Have to disagree w/you all there. The pure money grab was Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and the preceding comic books.


Ugh... I had blocked that one out of my head until now. That movie was soooo awful, it tarnishes all his other movies. Dogma was head and shoulders above Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

ETA: I too liked Dogma, but it's one of those movies that I really didn't need to see more than once. Whereas Clerks and Chasing Amy (and Mallrats even) are excellent no matter how many times you see them. I've never seen Jersey Girl.

Fairy- sorry for the hijack. FWIW, I totally agree with you on the fat flier issue, and just discrimination against overweight people in general. A lot of people who would never say racist or anti-semetic things feel perfectly comfortable making fat jokes and treating overweight people like they're subhuman. A-holes!

[fivi2]

umm... if we are talking money grab, Clerks 2 needs to be mentioned...

That is the only one I can think of that has absolutely no redeeming qualities.

I love, love, love the original Clerks. Mallrats, Chasing Amy, and Dogma are pretty equal for me - some great parts, some not so much. I can even find some amusing things in Jay and Silent Bob... Not Clerks 2. (never saw Jersey Girl).

[AnnieW625]

umm... if we are talking money grab, Clerks 2 needs to be mentioned...

That is the only one I can think of that has absolutely no redeeming qualities.

I love, love, love the original Clerks. Mallrats, Chasing Amy, and Dogma are pretty equal for me - some great parts, some not so much. I can even find some amusing things in Jay and Silent Bob... Not Clerks 2. (never saw Jersey Girl).

:yeahthat: x 100! I found the short lived and crude Clerks cartoon show more redeeming than Clerks 2, but again Smith knew he wasn't going to make any fans with that movie. Go watch Jersey Girl.

[mommylamb]

Clearly I've been living under a rock because I didn't know there was a Clerks 2.

[fivi2]

Clearly I've been living under a rock because I didn't know there was a Clerks 2.

Just keep believing that. You'll be so much happier :)

[wellyes]

I am chuckling at the idea of Dogma as a money grab. The very plot of that movie, with mass murdering angels, indulgences, abortion clinic worker savior, the appallingly foul-mouthed archangel and prophets and apostle, that scene with Selma Hayek ..... amazing it was a actual movie with real Hollywood actors in it.

Slate piece on the Kevin Smith controvery plus a mention of a writer who was yelled at for leaning back in his seat by the tall guy behind him: http://www.slate.com/id/2245115/ Doesn't really come to any conclusion but I thought it was an interesting juxtaposition.

[GlindaGoodWitch]

Did those models FALL THROUGH THE FLOOR?!?!?! What on earth would happen if a normal human walked on it? Yipes.

[egoldber]

Seriously, there is just something about air travel that brings out the worst in a lot of people. Did you hear that Mitt Romney was attacked on an airplane this week for asking the passenger in front of him to not recline his seat?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/15/mitt-romney-threatened-on-plane_n_463322.html

And you should see the "great" debates on flyertalk.com about such meaty issues as: armrest hogging, not using your "designated" overhead bin, the "right" to recline your seat and the ultimate no-no....small children in first class. :ROTFLMAO:

[lizzywednesday]

...
And you should see the "great" debates on flyertalk.com about such meaty issues as: armrest hogging, not using your "designated" overhead bin, the "right" to recline your seat and the ultimate no-no....small children in first class. :ROTFLMAO:

I guess DH and I will be prime offenders, then, because we have plans to take our LO to Hawaii with us next Spring. Baby will be appx. 14 mos old and we're saving up frequent flier miles to be able to fly 1st Class like we did on our honeymoon.

(To be fair, on our honeymoon a couple in front of us had a DC appx the same age as our LO will be & that worried DH. Me, not so much; I figured the kid would get a snack & then sack out. I was right.)

[egoldber]

FWIW, I couldn't care less. But is is a VERY VERY hot topic there. Even better, change his diaper on the seat. :hysterical:

[lizzywednesday]

umm... if we are talking money grab, Clerks 2 needs to be mentioned...

That is the only one I can think of that has absolutely no redeeming qualities.

I love, love, love the original Clerks. Mallrats, Chasing Amy, and Dogma are pretty equal for me - some great parts, some not so much. I can even find some amusing things in Jay and Silent Bob... Not Clerks 2. (never saw Jersey Girl).

No, Clerks 2 has Kev's cute-as-a-bug daughter, Harley Quinn in it! (She's the kid looking out of the restaurant window @ Dante while he's making his decision to stay in NJ rather than go to FL.)

I laughed the whole way through at Jay and Silent Bob, but only because (1) I'd read the comics and (2) it was a slew of random, inside jokes that only fellow Askewniverse fanboys (like my brother & me) would get. However, we did see the matinee showing instead. (BTW, that was also Harley's 1st cameo role in Dad's film ... she's Baby Bob at the beginning.)

BTW, Fairy, another apology for continuing the hijack. I don't mean to distract from the issue because I feel just as passionately about it as you do, but when Kev's movies are mentioned, I have to jump in!

[crl]

This is a little off-topic. But I noticed a few posts about very thin models. And I've noticed that people in general (not aimed at anyone posting on this thread) seem to think it is okay to take potshots at thin people. And I think that is just as much of a problem as doing it to heavier people. I was very thin for much of my life--for example, I am 5ft 7in and weighed 105 pounds on my wedding day, when I was 26. I never dieted or tried to be that thin. That's just what my body naturally weighed. (I'm heavier now.) When I was sick as a teenager the rumor was that I had anorexia. I didn't. I had pneumonia. It was pretty hurtful to go back to school and have people ask me if I had anorexia and act like I was lying when I told them no. And I've had people tell me over and over and over that I was "so skinny" "too skinny" "needed to eat" and so on. Apparently I was supposed to take those comments as compliments, but they were pretty mean-spirited in reality.

So, I just wanted to say fair is fair and if it's not cool to be mean to people because they are overweight it's also not cool to be mean to people because they are thin.

Catherine

[lizzywednesday]

This is a little off-topic. But I noticed a few posts about very thin models. And I've noticed that people in general (not aimed at anyone posting on this thread) seem to think it is okay to take potshots at thin people. And I think that is just as much of a problem as doing it to heavier people. I was very thin for much of my life--for example, I am 5ft 7in and weighed 105 pounds on my wedding day, when I was 26. I never dieted or tried to be that thin. That's just what my body naturally weighed. (I'm heavier now.) When I was sick as a teenager the rumor was that I had anorexia. I didn't. I had pneumonia. It was pretty hurtful to go back to school and have people ask me if I had anorexia and act like I was lying when I told them no. And I've had people tell me over and over and over that I was "so skinny" "too skinny" "needed to eat" and so on. Apparently I was supposed to take those comments as compliments, but they were pretty mean-spirited in reality.

So, I just wanted to say fair is fair and if it's not cool to be mean to people because they are overweight it's also not cool to be mean to people because they are thin.

Catherine

No, I think you have an equal grievance ... your outward size is something that people feel 100% entitled (and oftentimes excused) to make insensitive comments about.

One of my DF's from my hometown is petite and also VERY thin. It's just the way her genetic makeup works ... all of her siblings are VERY thin. Her mother is VERY thin. I don't ever remember meeting her father, but I would suspect he is also VERY thin.

I used to wonder if she was anorexic ... until we had the same lunch period. That girl can EAT! She also used to run track & cross-country, so she was very fit as well.

Another DF is on the opposite end of the spectrum ... she grew up very heavy and her parents even took her to Weight Watchers when we were 8 (!) and so she has a really weird (and likely unhealthy) relationship with food. She's finally learned to eat well and take care of herself, but the humiliation she lived with for so many years is far too much.

HOWEVER, when it comes to runway models, sample sizes (the clothes they wear) are a distorted "perfect" size 6. Many of the models subsist on champagne, coffee and cigarettes. Some even try drugs like cocaine or heroin to get through the day. They do not eat because they fear putting on ounces ... that's anorexic behavior and it's encouraged (though loudly denied) by the fashion industry.

It's equally disgusting as kicking someone off a flight because he/she is tactlessly told they're "too fat to fly."

[vludmilla]

This is a little off-topic. But I noticed a few posts about very thin models. And I've noticed that people in general (not aimed at anyone posting on this thread) seem to think it is okay to take potshots at thin people. And I think that is just as much of a problem as doing it to heavier people. I was very thin for much of my life--for example, I am 5ft 7in and weighed 105 pounds on my wedding day, when I was 26. I never dieted or tried to be that thin. That's just what my body naturally weighed. (I'm heavier now.) When I was sick as a teenager the rumor was that I had anorexia. I didn't. I had pneumonia. It was pretty hurtful to go back to school and have people ask me if I had anorexia and act like I was lying when I told them no. And I've had people tell me over and over and over that I was "so skinny" "too skinny" "needed to eat" and so on. Apparently I was supposed to take those comments as compliments, but they were pretty mean-spirited in reality.

So, I just wanted to say fair is fair and if it's not cool to be mean to people because they are overweight it's also not cool to be mean to people because they are thin.

Catherine

I haven't read the whole thread so I didn't see the potshots about thin people but I wanted to respond to your comment. I am also a very thin person naturally. I am almost 6 feet tall and at my heaviest right now (139lbs). I have been as thin as 125 and most of my adult life I was in the low 130's. I was often teased as a child for being "too thin" or "anorexic". People often assume that I diet excessively and feel free to make comments about my weight, some of them nice and others not so much. I try to not get too upset about it (though it bothered me a lot when I was a kid) because I think some of the people who make potshots might resent the naturally thin person as generally they are not so thin. I also figure, that if a person were able to choose which problem to have "overly thin or overly fat", most would choose overly thin. KWIM? I also think that as thin is represented as the ideal in our society, we just don't get how difficult it must be to be considered fat. I think the daily lives of those who are considerably overweight are much more difficult than mine. Many people erroneously attribute all kinds of positive qualities to thin people, find them more attractive, younger, give them better service, etcetera. Clothes are made to fit us better and shopping trips are not nearly as frustrating. So, I try to take the snide comments in stride and count my lucky stars for my good metabolism.

[codex57]

I should clarify. I really mispoke. What I meant was that Dogma seemed more of a money grab movie (hence a lot of the "stars" showing up in it cuz it's a rebellious Kevin Smith movie; altho a few have been in his movies for quite some time). It just seemed less pure than the movies before it. After Dogma, it just went downhill from there.

Dang, we totally jacked this thread. In an attempt to get it back, I agree with a PP. It's pretty hilarious to see the arguments about some of the etiquette on a plane. Man, that small children one in First Class was a classic. And yes, expect pitchforks and some gallows being brought out from some people if you should ever change a child's diaper in First Class.

[mommylamb]

FWIW, DH and I were once bumped up to first class (we never purchase the tickets ourselves, but we pray for getting bumped) and the couple across the aisle were totally making out the entire time. As in, the woman had climbed on top of the guy and was straddling him while snogging him. It was an early morning flight and they were clearly drunk as two skunks could be. The steward kept having to come over to them when the fasten seat belt sign went on and asked the woman repeatedly to get into her own seat. That was far worse behavior than changing a diaper, having a screaming child, being fat, being thin.... seriously!

[karstmama]

love kevin smith films, and adore clerks 2. how can you not love a flick with a donkey show???

[lizzywednesday]

FWIW, DH and I were once bumped up to first class (we never purchase the tickets ourselves, but we pray for getting bumped) and the couple across the aisle were totally making out the entire time. As in, the woman had climbed on top of the guy and was straddling him while snogging him. It was an early morning flight and they were clearly drunk as two skunks could be. The steward kept having to come over to them when the fasten seat belt sign went on and asked the woman repeatedly to get into her own seat. That was far worse behavior than changing a diaper, having a screaming child, being fat, being thin.... seriously!

OMG, public snogging is unacceptable anywhere.

I have a story that tops yours involving the USS Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor, a delayed ferryboat, our honeymoon and a younger-than-us couple in front of us ... we were ready to bust out our fists by the time the ferryboat arrived to pick us up. Totally inappropriate behavior for the location.

[codex57]

Hmm, seems some airlines do kick people off for being too smelly

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/02/18/smelly.passenger/index.html?hpt=Sbin

[Fairy]

Yeah, but it was a pretty awesome hijack. Havebt seen most of his movies, but dogma wa just awesome. The concept of george carlin as a priest of all things?! Brilliance.

LOVED jersey girl. Perfect casting all around, including carlin again, and the girl. The only reason it bombed was cuz of the bennifer backlash, which was so wacky. If u didn't know how to change a baby girls diaper before u saw that, u would when u were done.

[niccig]

Back to Fairy's OP. I think the airlines need to find a better way to deal with this. The seats are too small for many people. But it has to be handled with better tact and sensitivity.

I should also ask a friend of mine. She used to work at NorthWest and her job was to make sure a plane was weighted correctly, and different planes have different requirements. I didn't even know this was needed. She said it was mostly to do with where cargo and luggage is placed, but sometimes she would have to tell check-in that certain rows needed to be empty because of the heavier cargo that was being placed underneath those rows. She said they had an average weight per person that they would use in their calculations and the average took account of people who were lighter or heavier, as they're not about to weigh everyone. This was about 6 years ago, so I'm sure some of that has changed as I've never seen a plane with empty seats now. I wonder if they use an average size person when designing the seats? And if they've increased the average as the population on the whole is getting heavier. But then there needs to be an option for people that are taller/bigger than the average.

[codex57]

Yeah, I actually didn't mind Jersey Girl. Nor Dogma. However, I still felt something "changed" with Dogma. Just felt more commercial. I dunno. Maybe it was just a bigger budget so it looked more polished and less like an independent/low budget non-mainstream indie type film, which is one of the things I loved about Kevin Smith movies.

[mariza]

Still, I have higher expectations for airline employees than the TSA. That's an agency that just needs to go away. Nothing they do even has much security to it, and they insult all passengers while doing nothing. Plus, even if they had better guidelines, their employees are so poorly trained that they're too stupid/arrogant to follow them. Even when shown the policies in writing.

Just think I've wasted the last 7 years of my life at TSA fooling myself into thinking I was doing my part to help the traveling public. Guess I was being stupid and arrogant.

To get to Fairy's OP, I too am "plus size" at a size 18-20 but I see both sides of the argument. I have also killed myself getting into a seat in order to not request the dreaded extender. As a former airline employee I see where airlines need to make money so I don't know the answer. I think Spirit is on the right track though as they offer a section with wider seats that is a step below first class. I was able to upgrade a seat for $70 that had a couple extra inches of width and I really didn't mind paying a little extra for having that comfort. Paying for a whole extra seat would be cost prohibitive for many people and not flying is just not an option in today's society. More airlines should consider having an "extra wide" upgraded seating option.

[malphy]

Back to Fairy's OP. I think the airlines need to find a better way to deal with this. The seats are too small for many people. But it has to be handled with better tact and sensitivity.

I should also ask a friend of mine. She used to work at NorthWest and her job was to make sure a plane was weighted correctly, and different planes have different requirements. I didn't even know this was needed. She said it was mostly to do with where cargo and luggage is placed, but sometimes she would have to tell check-in that certain rows needed to be empty because of the heavier cargo that was being placed underneath those rows. She said they had an average weight per person that they would use in their calculations and the average took account of people who were lighter or heavier, as they're not about to weigh everyone. This was about 6 years ago, so I'm sure some of that has changed as I've never seen a plane with empty seats now. I wonder if they use an average size person when designing the seats? And if they've increased the average as the population on the whole is getting heavier. But then there needs to be an option for people that are taller/bigger than the average.

maybe they should just charge everybody by the pound.

That way they are accurate with weight as far as the plane is concerned, nobody will be singled out and thin people wont complain about losing an armrest because they will have paid less than the larger person.

being facetious, of course.

[crl]

maybe they should just charge everybody by the pound.

That way they are accurate with weight as far as the plane is concerned, nobody will be singled out and thin people wont complain about losing an armrest because they will have paid less than the larger person.

being facetious, of course.

Hmmm, this might actually be okay with me. But only if I can buy "extra" pounds so I can make sure no one encroaches on my seat (see my post above about my claustrophobia).

Catherine

[niccig]

maybe they should just charge everybody by the pound.

That way they are accurate with weight as far as the plane is concerned, nobody will be singled out and thin people wont complain about losing an armrest because they will have paid less than the larger person.

being facetious, of course.

I was not suggesting weighing people. I would never agree with that. I'm not getting up on that scale for all to see my weight....and that's why they have an average weight they use of the calculations. My friend said that it averages out - eg. my DS is taking up a seat, but he isn't average size. I just wonder if they use an average size person - height and weight - to work out the size of the seats, and if they do, has that average increased - the population is getting bigger, so more and more people won't fit in a seat that was for an average size person years ago, but not now.

And no one should be made to feel ashamed for asking for a seat belt extender. Fairy's experience of how she was treated when asked for one, is totally inappropriate. The flight attendant should give the extender without comment/smirk etc Whatever happened to manners/politeness etc.

[malphy]

And no one should be made to feel ashamed for asking for a seat belt extender. Fairy's experience of how she was treated when asked for one, is totally inappropriate. The flight attendant should give the extender without comment/smirk etc Whatever happened to manners/politeness etc.[/QUOTE]

Nobody should be made to feel ashamed to be themselves. period.

[malphy]

This is really a difficult issue because it cannot be fixed quickly. The planes are built to last so they are old. we, humans, have gotten larger and outgrown the planes. It is too expensive for the airlines to retro fit whole fleets of planes at once, if it is even possible to retrofit them.

As the planes are replaced due to age they should be made with our fat behinds in mind. Unfortunately this cannot happen overnight.

If you are too large for the current seats you should be able to pay a small fee to have 2 seats. I am not saying a full fare but something.

Of course all of these issues need to be handled in a discreet, respectful manner.

[o_mom]

I just wonder if they use an average size person - height and weight - to work out the size of the seats, and if they do, has that average increased - the population is getting bigger, so more and more people won't fit in a seat that was for an average size person years ago, but not now.



Actually, it was suggested to be increased several years ago after a small commuter plane crashed due to too much weight. They found that whatever number they were using was too small and adjusted it upwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Midwest_Flight_5481

[wellyes]

I still felt something "changed" with Dogma. Just felt more commercial. I dunno. Maybe it was just a bigger budget so it looked more polished and less like an independent/low budget non-mainstream indie type film, which is one of the things I loved about Kevin Smith movies.I get that, but I, too, would choose to have Alan Rickman and Selma Hayek and Chris Rock and Matt Damon in my movies if I could.


Still, I have higher expectations for airline employees than the TSA. That's an agency that just needs to go away. Nothing they do even has much security to it, and they insult all passengers while doing nothing. Plus, even if they had better guidelines, their employees are so poorly trained that they're too stupid/arrogant to follow them. Even when shown the policies in writing.Kevin's story is that the flight attendant asked him to leave because he was too big for the seat and was making the passengers on either side of him lean away. He defended himself by saying the passengers were leaning before he even sat, then put down the arm rests to show that he fit (he says he did fit with the arms down). Still kicked off.

I personally think it is a good thing that airline employees have the discretion to make judgment calls and stick by them, and that the airlines generally stand behind those decisions. There have been a few questionable incidents around this, I know. I remember a Sikh man being asked to leave because he was making other passengers uncomfortable by just *sitting there* which is pretty unfathomable to me - the airline did apologize later IIRC but still. But given the safety concerns and tight quarters and need to make decisions quickly before the plane gets off the ground I have to side with the airlines on no bending to Kevin Smith's argument and charm once the decision was made. For any passanger they think will cause an issue (drunk, sick, etc).

[C99]

I fly next to my husband on flights, who is 6'7" and not a small person either, so I am used to having my personal space crowded. I think the problem is more that the seats are too narrow.

[Fairy]

Kevin's story is that the flight attendant asked him to leave because he was too big for the seat and was making the passengers on either side of him lean away. He defended himself by saying the passengers were leaning before he even sat, then put down the arm rests to show that he fit (he says he did fit with the arms down). Still kicked off.

I personally think it is a good thing that airline employees have the discretion to make judgment calls and stick by them, and that the airlines generally stand behind those decisions. There have been a few questionable incidents around this, I know. I remember a Sikh man being asked to leave because he was making other passengers uncomfortable by just *sitting there* which is pretty unfathomable to me - the airline did apologize later IIRC but still. But given the safety concerns and tight quarters and need to make decisions quickly before the plane gets off the ground I have to side with the airlines on no bending to Kevin Smith's argument and charm once the decision was made. For any passanger they think will cause an issue (drunk, sick, etc).

Except Kevin was on a different flight where he'd purchased two seats. The airline then allowed him to fly standby with one seat. They knew what he looked like when they did that. The airline then allowed him to board the plane and be seated. It was only after he was seated and buckled that they ejected him, and his seatmates were not complaining. He'd already been identified as Kevin Smith by the other passengers, so it's not like he was a stranger who could just pretend no one saw him and would never have to feel the humiliation of being identified as too fat a flier who got ejected from the plane. That kind of humiliation of being ejected after they allowed him to board in the first place is not ok. If he couldn't buckle ... if he couldn't put the armrests down ... if the seat neighbors were complaining, there would be validity. None of that happened. The airline stuck to a policy that didn't apply in this situation. That is discrimination.

[wellyes]

If he couldn't buckle ... if he couldn't put the armrests down ... if the seat neighbors were complaining, there would be validity. None of that happened. The airline stuck to a policy that didn't apply in this situation. That is discrimination.I'm totally with you that they should not have put him on a flight with one open seat. All I'm saying is that I support the right of employees on the plane to make judgment calls and stick with them. And I don't think "none of the neighbors were complaining" is a great reason, because he is a celebrity which complicates things. Plus that puts the burden of kicking him off & humiliating him on the passengers instead of the company, which isn't fair. I'm reminded of an episode of Sex & the City where Big is smoking a cigar in a no-smoking restaurant -- the waitress asks him to put it out -- but he gets up and basically charms the rest of the people in the room to saying they don't mind. I think we all agree no smoking should mean no smoking even for the most handsome and charming among us.

[Fairy]

I get what you're saying :-). I'll give you that staff should do their jobs regardless of celebrity status and that his celebrity may have contributed to the neighbors not complaining, we just don't know. But there were other factors in this for Kevin's specific case. He should not have been ejected. In Big's situation, tho, he was inflicting carcinogens on the other customers. Right to not breathe in cancer I get. There is no expectation of rights for smokers to smoke with the general public. But the general right to perfect comfort in your airline seat I think is different in that heavy people have a right to exist with the non-heavy people and are not hurting anyone.

For the record, I don't like the term "fluffy" people. Not that you said that one, wellyes! It's just a by the way. The term has been bugging me.

[Reyadawnbringer]

I'm totally with you that they should not have put him on a flight with one open seat. All I'm saying is that I support the right of employees on the plane to make judgment calls and stick with them. And I don't think "none of the neighbors were complaining" is a great reason, because he is a celebrity which complicates things. Plus that puts the burden of kicking him off & humiliating him on the passengers instead of the company, which isn't fair. I'm reminded of an episode of Sex & the City where Big is smoking a cigar in a no-smoking restaurant -- the waitress asks him to put it out -- but he gets up and basically charms the rest of the people in the room to saying they don't mind. I think we all agree no smoking should mean no smoking even for the most handsome and charming among us.

One man's judgement call is another man's discrimination. There is also a VAST difference between a hard and fast quantifiable rule such as No Smoking and something MUCH less quantifiable like weight. They already have a "hard and fast" rule in place which is supposedly: "Fit in the seat, buckled and be able to put the armrest all the way down, otherwise buy a second seat". The problem in this case is that Kevin Smith DID fit within those guidelines. Not only did he fit, but he went above and beyond necessity and purchased a second seat. The airline bumped him. Then AFTER being seated (and fitting according to their rules) some flight attendant decides (by making a judgement call) that he CAN'T fly? Why is that? He fit just fine. WHO CARES if the person next to him was uncomfortable. I am sure Kevin Smith was just as uncomfortable being squeezed into one seat as well. But, he complied with the airlines and trusted that when they bumped him and there was only one seat available, that he would be accomodated. The fact that Kevin Smith purchased a second seat tells me that he thought it might be a close call and wanted to avoid the humiliation of being booted from a flight.

Judgement calls are ALWAYS going to be flawed in some way. And in this case, personal bias and discrimination color the ability to make a sound judgement call.

[egoldber]

But the general right to perfect comfort in your airline seat I think is different

I agree that there is generally no such thing on an airplane. However, I do think that there are people who most definitely take up more than one airplane seat. I don't mean slight encroachment into the seat next to them, I mean they truly would fill more than one seat and would not fit without lifting the armrest.

In this case, Southwest clearly made a mistake. He should have been on standby for 2 seats. Although I honestly think he does bear some responsibility for not bringing the fact that he needed to be on standby for two seats to their attention. Maybe he did and they still screwed up, I dunno.

[GlindaGoodWitch]

HEY!

If you make the seats wider does that make the aisle more narrow? Like my job isn't challenging ENOUGH. ;)

So, in all seriousness - what's better :

A. to ask a person whether they'd be more comfortable with an extender & risk them being offended

or

B. wait for them to ask you with the possibility that they may be too embarrassed to do so?

[Reyadawnbringer]

HEY!

If you make the seats wider does that make the aisle more narrow? Like my job isn't challenging ENOUGH. ;)

So, in all seriousness - what's better :

A. to ask a person whether they'd be more comfortable with an extender & risk them being offended

or

B. wait for them to ask you with the possibility that they may be too embarrassed to do so?

I am just gonna go ahead and say it... The extenders are hooey anyway. Anyone that is literally squished into their seat is not likely to go flying out of it at the first sign of turbulence, AND- If there is a serious crash and people go flying about: 1) I don't think an extender is going to hold when up against the weight/force of a larger person slamming against it and 2) I am more worried about the drink cart flying around in the event of a crash then the fat person squished into their seat (note: I am a fat person).

[Ceepa]

I am just gonna go ahead and say it... The extenders are hooey anyway. Anyone that is literally squished into their seat is not likely to go flying out of it at the first sign of turbulence, AND- If there is a serious crash and people go flying about: 1) I don't think an extender is going to hold when up against the weight/force of a larger person slamming against it and 2) I am more worried about the drink cart flying around in the event of a crash then the fat person squished into their seat (note: I am a fat person).

Aren't extenders connected to both ends of the seatbelt with the same mechanisms (tab and slot) as the seatbelt itself? If so, why wouldn't they remain intact if a regular seatbelt would in the event of turbulence or a crash?

Not trying to be combative, I don't use an extender for me but have for a carseat and would hate to think the extender holding my child is "hooey."

And I think the drink cart is secured when not in use. If a crash is imminent with no time or warning to secure the drink cart, then chances are everyone is going to die anyway.

[Reyadawnbringer]

Aren't extenders connected to both ends of the seatbelt with the same mechanisms (tab and slot) as the seatbelt itself? If so, why wouldn't they remain intact if a regular seatbelt would in the event of turbulence or a crash?

Not trying to be combative, I don't use an extender for me but have for a carseat and would hate to think the extender holding my child is "hooey."

And I think the drink cart is secured when not in use. If a crash is imminent with no time or warning to secure the drink cart, then chances are everyone is going to die anyway.

I am not 100% on how an extender works. Luckily I am not so fat that I need one yet. However in general terms I am going to go ahead and assume that your child and carseat are significantly lighter than the average larger person who needs an extender. The more you weigh, the more force that goes against the seatbelt. As a fat person myself, I don't exactly feel like the seatbelt is going to keep me safe, but that is just me.

My point was more that the seatbelts are only required during take off and landing, turbulence and crash. Now, taking into account that crashing is the least likely event, how is a larger person squished into one seat going to fly out of the seat at turbulence??

I never once said that an extender for a car seat was hooey. But, w/e. Thats just my opinion which should have absolutely no bearing on how you feel about them.

[egoldber]

how is a larger person squished into one seat going to fly out of the seat at turbulence??

I think you are seriously underestimating the forces when an airplane suddenly drops 10,000 feet. In relatively gentle turbulence (the averge "bumpy ride"), you're probably right. But those cases of extreme, sudden turbulence are why the belt is required.

[GlindaGoodWitch]

An extender is equally effective as the seat belt alone. Whether they would keep you or anyone else in a seat, welllllll I think if there's enough force to break that webbing, you'd be more worried about internal organ damage than anything else. I don't know & I hope I never find out.

Do you have an opinion on my query?

[Reyadawnbringer]

An extender is equally effective as the seat belt alone. Whether they would keep you or anyone else in a seat, welllllll I think if there's enough force to break that webbing, you'd be more worried about internal organ damage than anything else. I don't know & I hope I never find out.

Do you have an opinion on my query?

I think either way you handle your specific query there will be people offended on either side.

[fivi2]

HEY!

If you make the seats wider does that make the aisle more narrow? Like my job isn't challenging ENOUGH. ;)

So, in all seriousness - what's better :

A. to ask a person whether they'd be more comfortable with an extender & risk them being offended

or

B. wait for them to ask you with the possibility that they may be too embarrassed to do so?

Specifically to your query - would it be possible to make a general announcement at the gate -"extenders are available before entering the plane" and put them down by the plane door (like where those bag lunches used to be) and set them out for passengers to pick up at their discretion - whether for car seat or for their own personal use?

Just a thought...

[GlindaGoodWitch]

I think either way you handle your specific query there will be people offended on either side.

So you see my impossible position then? Just a little perspective if any of you have gotten upset one way or another.

As far as having an announcement & a bag of them at the door - might be something I could suggest, but the reality for the moment is A. I don't make the announcements except the ones when you've already boarded and B. the extenders are considered "ship's equipment" which means they cannot be removed from the aircraft.

[bubbaray]

Fairy, I am sorry that you have been hurt by this.

Someone posted about a flyer with BO. Check this out: http://www.vancouversun.com/Passenger+ejected+from+Montreal+bound+Canada+fligh t+being+smelly/2583329/story.html

[BabyMine]

Fairy, I am actually glad this happened to Kevin. If it would have happened to anyone else then it wouldn't get the press. My solution would be to have a couple rows of bigger seats. I know first class has them but maybe I want the bigger seat but not the other premiums. They don't have to worry about not selling them becasue I know I would buy one regardless of what size I am. I have been both fat and skinny and have seen the discrimnation from both sides. I have the personality I have today to cope with cruel kids in grade school. They heard people when they wanted more menu options so I hope they hear this and change. Yes more seats = more money but if you are the only airliner that accomidates larger passengers with less seats your profits will go up. What happened to the law of supply and demand? I am hoping with Kevin smith being in the news the demand will increase.

OT - The worst movie directed by Kevin Smith will be Cop Out. I think I am in the minority with liking Zack and Mori Make a Porno. It wasn't classic Kevin Smith but it was cute. My favs were all the movies between Clerks and Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. I also thank Kevin for Jason Lee.

[Fairy]

Specifically to your query - would it be possible to make a general announcement at the gate -"extenders are available before entering the plane" and put them down by the plane door (like where those bag lunches used to be) and set them out for passengers to pick up at their discretion - whether for car seat or for their own personal use?

Just a thought...

Now this is a GREAT thought. I'm all iin for this.

I'm seated, buckled, armrest downan and wheels up momentarily :-)

[Reyadawnbringer]

Now this is a GREAT thought. I'm all iin for this.

I'm seated, buckled, armrest downan and wheels up momentarily :-)

Awesome! Hopefully you have the same ease on the way back :D