Sensitive topic -- Abortion

[hillview]

This is not intended to cause a political/ethical debate. Just a poll.

[JBaxter]

No I have never had one and would never have one for any reason.

[TwinFoxes]

This is not intended to cause a political/ethical debate.

Good luck with that.

(I know you mean it, but there's no way this won't cause a debate.)

[amandabea]

I had a MC before DD and my OB/Gyn recommended a DNC. I think that is technically an abortion, so I voted yes. There was no heartbeat and then I MC. I guess I could have let things continue on there own, but that was what my doctor suggested and I agreed.

[tnrnchick74]

I've never had an abortion, and can't ever seeing myself doing it unless it were a matter of life and death for myself.

However, I also don't believe in pushing my beliefs on other people. I agree that abortion should remain legal & controlled. I do not believe in late term abortions. I believe that any woman who conceives because of rape, should have the opportunity if they so desire.

[mom2binsd]

At 19 weeks we discovered that the baby had two large tumors a 1 in 40,000 occurance known as a sacral-coccygeal teratoma, and always fatal, both tumors were huge, larger than the baby and in the position that prevented the spinal column from developing, almost no amniotic fluid left, choices were D&E or to wait for the miscarriage to happen, which if we ended up in the ER would most likely end in emergency surgery with high chance of surgery that might have made future pregnancy impossible.

It was the most difficult decision we've ever faced, it was our first pregnancy but our families, the experienced perinatologist at UCSD La Jolla, counsellors and our OB helped us through it.

That's my story, if you don't agree that's ok, it was what was right for us.

[dukie41181]

:hug: I am so sorry, but glad you had support and were able to make the best decision for yourselves! I couldn't imagine ever facing a situation like this and having to make such a decision.


At 19 weeks we discovered that the baby had two large tumors a 1 in 40,000 occurance known as a sacral-coccygeal teratoma, and always fatal, both tumors were huge, larger than the baby and in the position that prevented the spinal column from developing, almost no amniotic fluid left, choices were D&E or to wait for the miscarriage to happen, which if we ended up in the ER would most likely end in emergency surgery with high chance of surgery that might have made future pregnancy impossible.

It was the most difficult decision we've ever faced, it was our first pregnancy but our families, the experienced perinatologist at UCSD La Jolla, counsellors and our OB helped us through it.

That's my story, if you don't agree that's ok, it was what was right for us.

[BabyMine]

********WARNING******



1

This was years and years ago. I turned 18 and the next day was the procedure. The OBGYN botched it and I had to have another one. He did this w/o anesthesia. When I screamed and tried to grab the nurse's hand she backed away. The room was soundproof so nobody could hear me scream. When the OBGYN did the first one he sent me home with advil. Becasue of his error I hurt so bad a friend gave me percocet. I went to the ER later that night. When the ER DR called my OBGYN he said I was faking it. So the ER Dr. told me this and sent me home. The next day I went and saw a collegue of the OBGYNs. I told him about the percocet to let him know how much pain I was in. He told me I was a druggy and was going to hell for what I did. He then told me that I had to have it done again becasue there was some left behind. I had the same OBGYN as before and endured the same treatment.

I don't have regrets of why, but I have contempt for this OGBYN. Years later I found out he had 3 outstanding malpractice suits. In high school I had 3 friends who had them. I thought I would never do it. I couldn't understand how they could. After I found out I was pregnant I found out how. I was told that becasue the original OBGYN had done so much damage that I would never be able to have children. DH and I were fine with that. For that reason I don't judge anyone anymore. Ready for this one. We never used conception after that. 10 years later to. the. date. of that fetus's conception date we concieved M. We call M our miracle baby. I don't mind telling people becasue it was my choice and the right one at the time. DH do think of what if we didn't do it. We can't imagine being parents to an almost 16yo.

[Carrots]

Good luck with that.

(I know you mean it, but there's no way this won't cause a debate.)

Agreed. Other than this post, I am staying WAY far away from this topic.

[mommylamb]

I doubt you'll get any kind of statistically significant numbers in a poll because a lot of people on these boards who've had an abortion probably won't respond at all. I haven't had one, and wouldn't at this stage in my life unless there was some sort of serious problem with the fetus where it was unlikely to survive, or if my health were at risk. But, I see nothing wrong with it, and had I had a birth control failure when I was younger, I probably would have done that.

[hillview]

I doubt you'll get any kind of statistically significant numbers in a poll because a lot of people on these boards who've had an abortion probably won't respond at all.

Yeah I was thinking that. I was trying to get a sense if this board was similar to a recent survey published in the NYT.

/hillary

[KrisM]

********WARNING******



1

This was years and years ago. I turned 18 and the next day was the procedure. The OBGYN botched it and I had to have another one. He did this w/o anesthesia. When I screamed and tried to grab the nurse's hand she backed away. The room was soundproof so nobody could hear me scream. When the OBGYN did the first one he sent me home with advil. Becasue of his error I hurt so bad a friend gave me percocet. I went to the ER later that night. When the ER DR called my OBGYN he said I was faking it. So the ER Dr. told me this and sent me home. The next day I went and saw a collegue of the OBGYNs. I told him about the percocet to let him know how much pain I was in. He told me I was a druggy and was going to hell for what I did. He then told me that I had to have it done again becasue there was some left behind. I had the same OBGYN as before and endured the same treatment. I don't have regrets of why but I have contempt for this OGBYN. Years later I found out he had 3 outstanding malpractice suits. In high school I had 3 friends who had them. I thought I would never do it. I couldn't understand how they could. After I found out I was pregnant I found out how. I was told that becasue the original OBGYN had done so much damage that I would never be able to have children. DH and I were fine with that. For that reason I don't judge anyone anymore. Ready for this one. We never used conception after that. 10 years later to. the. date. of that fetus's conception date we concieved M. We call M our miracle baby. I don't mind telling people becasue it was my choice and the right one at the time. DH do think of what if we didn't do it. We can't imagine being parents to an almost 16yo.

How awful! I can't imagine going through all of that. I'm so sorry you had such crappy doctors.

[MamaSnoo]

I haven't had one, and wouldn't at this stage in my life unless there was some sort of serious problem with the fetus where it was unlikely to survive, or if my health were at risk. But, I see nothing wrong with it, and had I had a birth control failure when I was younger, I probably would have done that.

:yeahthat:

I had a birth control failure (condom broke mid-cyle) at age 22 and used the equivalent of Plan B (this was a while ago, and Plan B was not out there, but your GYN could prescribe lots of OCPs to take the am after). If that had not worked, I would have seriously considered an abortion. I consider myself lucky that I did not have to go through this difficult choice.

[Clarity]

I had a MC before DD and my OB/Gyn recommended a DNC. I think that is technically an abortion, so I voted yes. There was no heartbeat and then I MC. I guess I could have let things continue on there own, but that was what my doctor suggested and I agreed.

I voted no, but I suppose under this definition then, yes, I have had an abortion. I had a miscarriage and then a D&C.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

At 19 weeks we discovered that the baby had two large tumors a 1 in 40,000 occurance known as a sacral-coccygeal teratoma, and always fatal, both tumors were huge, larger than the baby and in the position that prevented the spinal column from developing, almost no amniotic fluid left, choices were D&E or to wait for the miscarriage to happen, which if we ended up in the ER would most likely end in emergency surgery with high chance of surgery that might have made future pregnancy impossible.

It was the most difficult decision we've ever faced, it was our first pregnancy but our families, the experienced perinatologist at UCSD La Jolla, counsellors and our OB helped us through it.

That's my story, if you don't agree that's ok, it was what was right for us.

:hug5: I am so very very sorry, and cannot imagine someone judging you for having to make such a hard decision. I hope that is the hardest thing you ever have to face, ever.

[bluestarfish18]

********WARNING******



1

This was years and years ago. I turned 18 and the next day was the procedure. The OBGYN botched it and I had to have another one. He did this w/o anesthesia. When I screamed and tried to grab the nurse's hand she backed away. The room was soundproof so nobody could hear me scream. When the OBGYN did the first one he sent me home with advil. Becasue of his error I hurt so bad a friend gave me percocet. I went to the ER later that night. When the ER DR called my OBGYN he said I was faking it. So the ER Dr. told me this and sent me home. The next day I went and saw a collegue of the OBGYNs. I told him about the percocet to let him know how much pain I was in. He told me I was a druggy and was going to hell for what I did. He then told me that I had to have it done again becasue there was some left behind. I had the same OBGYN as before and endured the same treatment.

I don't have regrets of why, but I have contempt for this OGBYN. Years later I found out he had 3 outstanding malpractice suits. In high school I had 3 friends who had them. I thought I would never do it. I couldn't understand how they could. After I found out I was pregnant I found out how. I was told that becasue the original OBGYN had done so much damage that I would never be able to have children. DH and I were fine with that. For that reason I don't judge anyone anymore. Ready for this one. We never used conception after that. 10 years later to. the. date. of that fetus's conception date we concieved M. We call M our miracle baby. I don't mind telling people becasue it was my choice and the right one at the time. DH do think of what if we didn't do it. We can't imagine being parents to an almost 16yo.

Jenn,

You have so much of my respect for posting what had to be a painful event, for physically and emotinally. Kudos to you for showing such bravery.

[american_mama]

>> I had a MC before DD and my OB/Gyn recommended a DNC. I think that is technically an abortion, so I voted yes. There was no heartbeat and then I MC.

I don't think a D&C when there is no heartbeat is considered an abortion, certainly not in the everday use of the word "abortion." Original poster, could you clarify in your original post whether to include D&Cs after a miscarriage, otherwise, your results will be a little skewed.

[gatorsmom]

Good luck with that.

(I know you mean it, but there's no way this won't cause a debate.)

:yeahthat: I voted I've never had one but I'm staying FAR away from this thread. This subject is something I feel very strongly about.

[Sillygirl]

I voted no, but I suppose under this definition then, yes, I have had an abortion. I had a miscarriage and then a D&C.

Medically speaking, the miscarriage itself is called an abortion, sometimes qualified as a spontaneous abortion. If you have a m/c but don't expel the uterine contents, like I did, it's called a missed abortion. The procedure to remove the uterine contents (embyro with no heartbeat) is called the D&C. It gets confusing because the term "abortion" in the social-political world I believe usually implies a procedure done with the intent to end an ongoing pregnancy. That's very different than the medical terminology, and I suspect closer to what the OP meant.

[bigpassport]

I had a MC before DD and my OB/Gyn recommended a DNC. I think that is technically an abortion, so I voted yes. There was no heartbeat and then I MC. I guess I could have let things continue on there own, but that was what my doctor suggested and I agreed.


I voted no, but I suppose under this definition then, yes, I have had an abortion. I had a miscarriage and then a D&C.

I assumed "abortion" for purposes of this poll meant induced or intentional termination of a pregnancy. I'm not in medicine but its my understanding that dilation and curettage (d&c) is a method to remove tissue from the uterus and can be used to intentionally abort a live fetus or to remove the tissue after a miscarriage. I certainly don't think of a d&c following a miscarriage as an "abortion."

[JBaxter]

I assumed "abortion" for purposes of this poll meant induced or intentional termination of a pregnancy. I'm not in medicine but its my understanding that dilation and curettage (d&c) is a method to remove tissue from the uterus and can be used to intentionally abort a live fetus or to remove the tissue after a miscarriage. I certainly don't think of a d&c following a miscarriage as an "abortion."

Yes Thats what I took it as. Ive have had 2 d&c's due to miscarriages. "I" think of and abortion is when the baby still has a heart beat.

OP is that what you were asking.

[salsah]

it also assumed that a d&c does not count as an abortion (the embryo/fetus already aborted naturally, the d&C is just to make sure that nothing gets left behind).

does the morning after pill count? it prevents pregnancy from occurring so it is different in that there is no embryo. but it is used for some of the same reasons (or in some of the same situations) that a person may decided to get an abortion.

[DebbieJ]

I voted no, but I suppose under this definition then, yes, I have had an abortion. I had a miscarriage and then a D&C.
:yeahthat:

And the medical term for miscarriage is spontaneous abortion so I suppose everyone who has had a MC has had an abortion.

[kozachka]

I doubt you'll get any kind of statistically significant numbers in a poll because a lot of people on these boards who've had an abortion probably won't respond at all. I haven't had one, and wouldn't at this stage in my life unless there was some sort of serious problem with the fetus where it was unlikely to survive, or if my health were at risk. But, I see nothing wrong with it, and had I had a birth control failure when I was younger, I probably would have done that.

:yeahthat: My thoughts precisely. The answers so far do not look representative of the general population, not even close.

[mommylamb]

I voted no, but I suppose under this definition then, yes, I have had an abortion. I had a miscarriage and then a D&C.

I don't consider that an abortion if you had already miscarried. I know a D&C procedure is the same procedure, but it's not my definition anyway.

[mommylamb]

does the morning after pill count? it prevents pregnancy from occurring so it is different in that there is no embryo. but it is used for some of the same reasons (or in some of the same situations) that a person may decided to get an abortion.

I"m not the OP, but I don't count the morning after pill in my mind. I voted no for myself, but I've had to take the MAP twice, and I don't count that in any way shape or form. Both times a condom broke. Once was with DH when we were dating and in grad school. The thing was, I was on the pill, but I had to take antibiotics, so we were using a condom too. Taking the MAP was just being especially diligent that I didn't get pregnant when the condom broke.

[smilequeen]

I voted no.

A D&C after a miscarriage (I've had 2 D&Cs) is NOT an abortion (although I do understand that a miscarriage is termed a missed abortion in my cases :( )

[Pennylane]

I voted no.

A D&C after a miscarriage (I've had 2 D&Cs) is NOT an abortion (although I do understand that a miscarriage is termed a missed abortion in my cases :( )

:yeahthat:

To me an abortion is the choice to end a pregnancy. I've had 2 D&C's and in no way do I consider them abortions.

Ann

[1964pandora]

This is my understanding: D & C's are sometimes performed on "missed abortions" where the dead fetus fails to abort. D & C's on missed abortions are not abortions as the last several posters pointed out.

[1964pandora]

I had a MC before DD and my OB/Gyn recommended a DNC. I think that is technically an abortion, so I voted yes. There was no heartbeat and then I MC. I guess I could have let things continue on there own, but that was what my doctor suggested and I agreed.

No, this isn't an abortion. You had a D & C on a missed abortion. Right?

[1964pandora]

This is my understanding: D & C's are sometimes performed on "missed abortions" where the dead fetus fails to abort. D & C's on missed abortions are not abortions as the last several posters pointed out.

Sorry, I meant dead embryo. The system wasn't allowing me to edit my posts, so sorry for posting 3 times and not getting my thoughts together!

[MelissaTC]

Never had one and am thankful that I was never in the position to have to make those kind of decisions. My heart goes out to all who have been because I imagine it is not an easy decision to make in any circumstance.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

Never had one and am thankful that I was never in the position to have to make those kind of decisions. My heart goes out to all who have been because I imagine it is not an easy decision to make in any circumstance.

I fully believe in the right to have legal abortions, but I don't *think* I could ever have one. Making things illegal does not prevent them from happening, it just creates more "criminals".
Before we got married we agree that if the baby had Downs Syndrome or the like, we would have an abortion.While pregnant with DD she was screened for Downs, etc. I told DD before the test that no matter what it showed I was having her and that if he had an issue he could file for divorce.... I thought I knew what I would have done, but once I was pregnant things changed for me.

Until you have been in someone else's shoes you cannot understand their choices. I too read this poll as an abortion by choice, not a spontaneous one, etc. Two completely different things.

[BabyMine]

Jenn,

You have so much of my respect for posting what had to be a painful event, for physically and emotinally. Kudos to you for showing such bravery.

Thank you Lauren. I just wish more people would come out and tell their stories. We made hard decisions and should not be looked down upon. I had 1 person tell me that the reason it turned out horrible is that I was being punished. I didn't argue I just walked away and felt sorry for her. She will never get a chance to know me. Through her hatred of a personal decision I made she chose to judge me without even truly knowing me. Maybe one day people will be able to openly talk about this without being in fear of the backlash. I have recieved mnay PM's from mamas that feel they can't talk about it becasue they are scared what other people will think of them. they aren't evil, bad, or selfish. Some harbour so much guilt that it has caused health problems. Of those that are hurting, may you finally come to peace one day.

[gatorsmom]

Making things illegal does not prevent them from happening, it just creates more "criminals".
Before we got married we agree that if the baby had Downs Syndrome or the like, we would have an abortion.While pregnant with DD she was screened for Downs, etc. I told DD before the test that no matter what it showed I was having her and that if he had an issue he could file for divorce.... I thought I knew what I would have done, but once I was pregnant things changed for me.

Until you have been in someone else's shoes you cannot understand their choices.

And it begins. Any Prolifers out there willing to voice their opinions? I'm too chicken. I've done it before and it always turns into a pile-on.

[BabyMine]

And it begins. Any Prolifers out there willing to voice their opinions? I'm too chicken. I've done it before and it always turns into a pile-on.

Try it again. Don't be chicken. I'm interested.

[smiles33]

I have been lucky and have never put in a position to make this decision, but I know girlfriends who did. Frankly, I am personally pro-life (especially if it's a convenience issue for me), but am firmly pro-choice for other women as I don't think I have the right to dictate what someone else does to their body.

I would hope that I would never have an abortion, but things change when you go from an abstract position to a real-life decision. Thus, I believe every woman needs to make that decision herself. I would support the idea of presenting alternatives to someone considering abortion, but I don't know if there are any viable programs that offer a free place to live during the pregnancy, free pre-natal care, etc.

I would willingly pay higher taxes to enable women to not abort and support their living expenses during pregnancy so they can give their child up for adoption to a loving family. However, the reality is that many women don't have the financial or emotional support to have a baby. For those who are fervently pro-life and condemn those who choose abortion, I hope they have come up with some practical solutions and put their money where their mouth is.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

And it begins. Any Prolifers out there willing to voice their opinions? I'm too chicken. I've done it before and it always turns into a pile-on.

Sorry, I was just trying to explain how I changed my mind on something major, and felt that my opinion on abortion legality pertained to the issue. I am not trying to promote pro-choice by any means. Abortion is the one political things I feel is very personal and heavily influenced by life experience. I am not trying to judge anyone on either side. I didn't post it to cause controversy or a debate, but to clarify where I was coming from. :duck:

[Melaine]

Making things illegal does not prevent them from happening, it just creates more "criminals".

.....Until you have been in someone else's shoes you cannot understand their choices.

That could be said about any other law, so I'm confused as to how that is relevant unless you are promoting anarchy. Honestly, I'm not trying to be snarky, but that attitude seems to lead to a lack of government or laws at all...

I totally agree with the second part, however, I still don't think this applies to the issue of abortion either. The same thing could be said about someone who committed murder. Maybe we can't understand their position, fears, thoughts, or what they went through, but that doesn't automatically make the act of murder excusable.

I'm pro-life just about as strongly as a person can be. I don't claim to have all the answers, and I won't say it's an easy or clear-cut issue. The concept of medically-necessary abortions is a separate one for me. I understand the place for that, and while I don't believe I would choose it, I see why many would. And, as you said, since I haven't walked in the shoes of someone who has faced that decision, I don't know what I would do. I think the option should certainly be available in cases that the mother's life is threatened or the baby has no chance of survival.

Personally, I think bringing the medically-necessary abortions into the equation is just muddying the waters of the issue.

It's the majority of abortions that are made for other reasons that I categorically oppose. I don't think abortions are right in the case of rape, mother's age, poverty or the mother's preference. I'll never be ok with that. I don't expect abortion to become illegal, but that doesn't change my stance.

I just wanted to respond to the other poster, although I really didn't intend to get involved in the inevitable debate this thread would launch!

[mamicka]

That could be said about any other law, so I'm confused as to how that is relevant unless you are promoting anarchy. Honestly, I'm not trying to be snarky, but that attitude seems to lead to a lack of government or laws at all...

I totally agree with the second part, however, I still don't think this applies to the issue of abortion either. The same thing could be said about someone who committed murder. Maybe we can't understand their position, fears, thoughts, or what they went through, but that doesn't automatically make the act of murder excusable.

I'm pro-life just about as strongly as a person can be. I don't claim to have all the answers, and I won't say it's an easy or clear-cut issue. The concept of medically-necessary abortions is a separate one for me. I understand the place for that, and while I don't believe I would choose it, I see why many would. And, as you said, since I haven't walked in the shoes of someone who has faced that decision, I don't know what I would do. I think the option should certainly be available in cases that the mother's life is threatened or the baby has no chance of survival.

Personally, I think bringing the medically-necessary abortions into the equation is just muddying the waters of the issue.

It's the majority of abortions that are made for other reasons that I categorically oppose. I don't think abortions are right in the case of rape, mother's age, poverty or the mother's preference. I'll never be ok with that. I don't expect abortion to become illegal, but that doesn't change my stance.

I just wanted to respond to the other poster, although I really didn't intend to get involved in the inevitable debate this thread would launch!

I agree with you Melaine. It is sad to me that abortion is considered an acceptable thing to do. It isn't ok for me to do it, nor do I think it is ok for someone else to be "allowed" to do it. I don't think I need to live through each possible scenario in order to have a valid opinion on it. In my opinion, abortion is taking another human life. That isn't OK with me. Medical necessity is another matter entirely and is a different discussion.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

That could be said about any other law, so I'm confused as to how that is relevant unless you are promoting anarchy. Honestly, I'm not trying to be snarky, but that attitude seems to lead to a lack of government or laws at all...

I totally agree with the second part, however, I still don't think this applies to the issue of abortion either. The same thing could be said about someone who committed murder. Maybe we can't understand their position, fears, thoughts, or what they went through, but that doesn't automatically make the act of murder excusable.

I'm pro-life just about as strongly as a person can be. I don't claim to have all the answers, and I won't say it's an easy or clear-cut issue. The concept of medically-necessary abortions is a separate one for me. I understand the place for that, and while I don't believe I would choose it, I see why many would. And, as you said, since I haven't walked in the shoes of someone who has faced that decision, I don't know what I would do. I think the option should certainly be available in cases that the mother's life is threatened or the baby has no chance of survival.

Personally, I think bringing the medically-necessary abortions into the equation is just muddying the waters of the issue.

It's the majority of abortions that are made for other reasons that I categorically oppose. I don't think abortions are right in the case of rape, mother's age, poverty or the mother's preference. I'll never be ok with that. I don't expect abortion to become illegal, but that doesn't change my stance.

I just wanted to respond to the other poster, although I really didn't intend to get involved in the inevitable debate this thread would launch!

I won't touch most of the rest of what you are saying because it is your personal beliefs, to which you are entitled.

I will say however as someone that was raped from age 6-12, 2 of those years I was menstruating, if I had gotten pregnant (which I am so grateful for not getting pregnant) I would have rather died than have had that monstrous pedophiles baby. I would be 31 with possibly a child that would now be in their 20's. I don't know how I could have done it, I really don't.

[Ceepa]

For those who are fervently pro-life and condemn those who choose abortion, I hope they have come up with some practical solutions and put their money where their mouth is.

"Put their money where their mouth is"??

Fortunately we are allowed to oppose another's life choices without being required to stand in and financially and emotionally support them as a consequence.

[fortato]

I had an abortion when I was 18. I was dating an abusive guy, and I just wasn't ready to be a mother- I was estranged from my parents because of him, and knew that an unwanted pregnancy would just make things worse. So. I had the abortion.

I never talked about it, and was ashamed with my decision, not a day goes by that I don't think about what I did, and what I would have done differently. I refuse to let someone make me feel bad about my choice, because I already felt bad about it, and did what I thought was right at the time.

I'm ok with talking about it here now because my sister decided to post it on her blog that I had one, thus making me the most f'ed up daughter in the world. She posted it and made sure to link to her post so my family could read it. The family that I fought so hard to keep this secret from, and that I fought so hard to get them to rebuild their trust in me. She also posted it while I was trying to get pregnant... so I started to think that my possible fertility issues were in some way caused by me terminating my pregnancy 16 years before.

So, those of you out there that think it's not ok, that's fine. You make the choices that are right for you, but, like the PP said- until you walk in my shoes, don't you dare tell me what is right for me.

[smiles33]

"Put their money where their mouth is"??

Fortunately we are allowed to oppose another's life choices without being required to stand in and financially and emotionally support them as a consequence.

To clarify, if the LAW makes abortions illegal, then YES, I do think society will need to put their money where their mouth is.

ETA: Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when your opinion infringes upon my ability to make a decision, then society needs to justify that decision.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I had an abortion when I was 18. I was dating an abusive guy, and I just wasn't ready to be a mother- I was estranged from my parents because of him, and knew that an unwanted pregnancy would just make things worse. So. I had the abortion.

I never talked about it, and was ashamed with my decision, not a day goes by that I don't think about what I did, and what I would have done differently. I refuse to let someone make me feel bad about my choice, because I already felt bad about it, and did what I thought was right at the time.

I'm ok with talking about it here now because my sister decided to post it on her blog that I had one, thus making me the most f'ed up daughter in the world. She posted it and made sure to link to her post so my family could read it. The family that I fought so hard to keep this secret from, and that I fought so hard to get them to rebuild their trust in me. She also posted it while I was trying to get pregnant... so I started to think that my possible fertility issues were in some way caused by me terminating my pregnancy 16 years before.

So, those of you out there that think it's not ok, that's fine. You make the choices that are right for you, but, like the PP said- until you walk in my shoes, don't you dare tell me what is right for me.

WOW! I'm so sorry for what you went through, especially for what happened with your sister. I'm sorry you felt like fertility issues were punishment for having an abortion, so sorry. I am not judging just giving you a :hug5:

[smiles33]

fortato and BelleoftheBallFlagstaff: thank you both for sharing your very personal and painful stories. I truly wish I could say something more poignant, but I'm at a loss. I think you both are obviously strong survivors and I'm glad to see that both of you have been able to start families on YOUR terms.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

fortato and BelleoftheBallFlagstaff: thank you both for sharing your very personal and painful stories. I truly wish I could say something more poignant, but I'm at a loss. I think you both are obviously strong survivors and I'm glad to see that both of you have been able to start families on YOUR terms.

Thanks! I went through a lot as child and it really has made me the strong, yet incredibly sensitive person I am today. I think that is the foundation for a lot of my opinions/beliefs. Whether someone agrees or not unless they have walked a mile in my shoes they have no idea what it feels like.

[maydaymommy]

I voted yes, for medical reasons. However, I could have voted Other b/c though it was for medical reasons there was great, great regret, as well as trauma for many years. I always was, and fully remain pro-choice, despite the difficulty that I had dealing with the decision that we had to make.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

So sorry. What a terrible situation. And to have a Dr. talk to you that way blows my mind. I hope one day it becomes less painful for you. Choices like these are never easy, nor may without great thought. :hug5:

There are some very strong women on this board!

[JMS]

fortato and BelleoftheBallFlagstaff: thank you both for sharing your very personal and painful stories. I truly wish I could say something more poignant, but I'm at a loss. I think you both are obviously strong survivors and I'm glad to see that both of you have been able to start families on YOUR terms.

I want to second Smiles33's sentiments. I still don't know how to use icons after all these years, but the "yeah that" would be appropriate. Hugs and thanks to both of you ladies :)

[kijip]

I don't think abortions are right in the case of rape, mother's age, poverty or the mother's preference. I'll never be ok with that.

That's great for you. But until you are faced with a possible pregnancy after rape or raising a baby born of rape, I think there is a strong case that you really just don't know what you or anyone else would do. My older brother is the result of gang rape. No one who has not been in the situation my mother was in, can begin the fathom the weight of her decision (and that includes me). As a survivor of multiple sexual assaults (same attacker) as a I child, I feel I have some insight on the trauma but I still don't think I could ever really understand fully, except to know in my heart and soul that I can't ever understand fully. Rape is very common in our culture. Until we take steps to halt the cycles that facilitate sexual assaults and conflate violence with sexual power, we will have many women facing very, very hard choices.

ETA: A very good book on the ramifications of rape survivors and the pain they carry with them impacting their later births and mothering is "When Survivors Give Birth". I highly recommend it to anyone facing a pregnancy and birth either in the wake of rape or years, years later. Or to anyone wishing to understand more on the issues raised for rape survivors becoming mothers. Should be read by any health care professionals working with pregnant and laboring moms (given the high probability that such professionals will see rape survivors in the course of their work, regardless of if the provider is made aware of the patient's rape history.)

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

That's great for you. But until you are faced with a possible pregnancy after rape or raising a baby born of rape, I think there is a strong case that you really just don't know what you or anyone else would do. My older brother is the result of gang rape. No one who has not been in the situation my mother was in, can begin the fathom the weight of her decision (and that includes me). As a survivor of multiple sexual assaults (same attacker) as a I child, I feel I have some insight on the trauma but I still don't think I could ever really understand fully, except to know in my heart and soul that I can't ever understand fully. Rape is very common in our culture. Until we take steps to halt the cycles that facilitate sexual assaults and conflate violence with sexual power, we will have many women facing very, very hard choices.

:bighand: Very well said
It is really nice we can talk about sexual assault and get it out here in a safe place. I feel the same I can kinda understand, but not fully what your mother went through. What an amazing woman....Rape is very common, and it is something that follows you throughout life. For me, I was so young... I could have been 17 going to prom with a kindergartner at home. Scary.

[BabyMine]

I wanted to thank Gatorsmom, Melaine, and Mamika for sharing their views. I know that this a hotly debated topic but I like to hear from both sides even though I know where I stand. My only wish is that people who were prochoice wouldn't treat me as if I had leprosy or beneath them for the choice I made.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I want to second Smiles33's sentiments. I still don't know how to use icons after all these years, but the "yeah that" would be appropriate. Hugs and thanks to both of you ladies :)

Thanks. I just hope that my DD never has to go through any of the tough things I did.

[kijip]

I chose to have T rather than have an abortion, I had in fact scheduled 2 abortions in the first trimester with the uneasy and very reluctant intention to terminate. And it was an agonizing decision. I know that I made the right choice for me and my husband. Of course I did, I could never look at my son who is doing handstands on the sofa and singing "the sun's a miasma of incandescent plasma...a fourth state of matter not gas, not liquid, not solid" and think it was a mistake to have him. But I value that I had the choice and believe that I am a better mother for having made an active choice to have him, even at a time when many do opt for an abortion- I was not yet a college graduate and not yet 23, though I was married. But I had a hell of a lot of resources at my disposal to make that decision work for us. And it was really MAKING it work- it was not an easy or always joyful thing. Having seen up close and personal the failures of our culture to adequately care for children whose parents can not or will not care for them, I can't say that I see a solution better than the solution that we have. In a perfect world, no one would feel the need for an abortion and the debate would be moot. But we have not ever lived in a perfect world and the policy decisions and personal decisions we make are informed by the imperfections of economic, racial and violent injustices.

[BabyMine]

That's great for you. But until you are faced with a possible pregnancy after rape or raising a baby born of rape, I think there is a strong case that you really just don't know what you or anyone else would do. My older brother is the result of gang rape. No one who has not been in the situation my mother was in, can begin the fathom the weight of her decision (and that includes me). As a survivor of multiple sexual assaults (same attacker) as a I child, I feel I have some insight on the trauma but I still don't think I could ever really understand fully, except to know in my heart and soul that I can't ever understand fully. Rape is very common in our culture. Until we take steps to halt the cycles that facilitate sexual assaults and conflate violence with sexual power, we will have many women facing very, very hard choices.

I teared up when I read that " rape is very common in your culture." That is so sad to treat another human being with such disrepect.:hug:

[kijip]

I teared up when I read that " rape is very common in your culture." That is so sad to treat another human being with such disrepect.:hug:

:hug: back. Just to be clear, the culture I am talking about is American culture. I know it is a controversial position to take, but as Americans we need to take a long hard look at why we have so much rape and why we do such a colossally terrible job of supporting the healing of those affected by rape. Is rape unique to the US? Of course not and we are not the only place with a serious problem. But that doesn't mean we can't try and do something to fix the serious problem that we have.

[gatorsmom]

I wanted to thank Gatorsmom, Melaine, and Mamika for sharing their views.

I haven't really voiced my opinion. I'm very seriously prolife but there is no way I'm getting into it here again. Just take a look at the thread and see how many of the same posters have responded more than once to Melaine and Mamicka. And that is why the rest of us prolifers probably won't respond here although we know who we are.....

Melaine and Mamicka, you rock. Heading back to the catacombs now.....

[kijip]

Just take a look at the thread and see how many of the same posters have responded more than once to Melaine and Mamicka. And that is why the rest of us prolifers probably won't respond here although we know who we are.....

Melaine and Mamicka, you rock. Heading back to the catacombs now.....

Responding is not attacking. Honestly, people should be proud enough of their positions that it is irrelevant to them if it is popular or not IMO. If it's a position worth standing up for, it's not going to be something that everyone agrees with. Mamicka and Melaine have excellently voiced their opinions and kudos to them. But no one on this thread has responded to them in anything but a kind and polite fashion IMO.

[Indianamom2]

I am very, very much anti-abortion.

That being said, my heart aches for those who have had to make really tough decisions due to horrible circumstances or health issues. I've often thought about how terrible it must be to be pregnant not by choice, and what I would do if in that situation. I always come back to the fact that there is an innocent baby involved too.

I have a much harder time having compassion for those who use abortion as birth control or for the sake of convenience. If you don't want to get pregnant, use easily available birth control or don't have sex.

However, no matter what choices a woman has made, I will not berate her or treat her badly. I would not and do not support those who want harm to come to abortion providers. Do I want them to stop? Absolutely. But not by taking the law into my own hands. I firmly believe that people will not want to change their opinion if they are constantly being belittled and attacked. Perhaps more women would feel like they had more options if our side...my pro-life side...would be portrayed (by the media) for the compassion we have instead of the them always focusing on the few true wackos who always end up in the spotlight.

[Melaine]

I am very, very much anti-abortion.

That being said, my heart aches for those who have had to make really tough decisions due to horrible circumstances or health issues. I've often thought about how terrible it must be to be pregnant not by choice, and what I would do if in that situation. I always come back to the fact that there is an innocent baby involved too.

I have a much harder time having compassion for those who use abortion as birth control or for the sake of convenience. If you don't want to get pregnant, use easily available birth control or don't have sex.

However, no matter what choices a woman has made, I will not berate her or treat her badly. I would not and do not support those who want harm to come to abortion providers. Do I want them to stop? Absolutely. But not by taking the law into my own hands. I firmly believe that people will not want to change their opinion if they are constantly being belittled and attacked. Perhaps more women would feel like they had more options if our side...my pro-life side...would be portrayed (by the media) for the compassion we have instead of the them always focusing on the few true wackos who always end up in the spotlight.


Very well put. ITA.

[kijip]

"Put their money where their mouth is"??

Fortunately we are allowed to oppose another's life choices without being required to stand in and financially and emotionally support them as a consequence.

Yes, you or anyone are very much allowed to do that. But it does not result in the saving of any lives.

For me personally, taking care of babies individually and collectively that can't be cared for by their parents and working to make the parent's supported and effective moms and dads is one of the only real antidotes to the perceived need for abortion. Many wonderful, smart pro-life groups and pro-choice groups get this and support moms in crisis. Helping a mom in need finish school or mentoring a pregnant woman and helping her find housing saves more babies than the more "you made your bed, lie in it" pro-life groups. I am happy to open my heart, mind, pocketbook and time to such help, as are many pro-life and pro-choice peeps I know. When parents are emotionally and in some case financially supported, their kids benefit.

[fortato]

I wanted to thank Gatorsmom, Melaine, and Mamika for sharing their views. I know that this a hotly debated topic but I like to hear from both sides even though I know where I stand. My only wish is that people who were prochoice wouldn't treat me as if I had leprosy or beneath them for the choice I made.

Likewise.

We all do what we think is right... and no matter what we choose, someone out there is going to be against it.

[Indianamom2]

[/QUOTE]For me personally, taking care of babies individually and collectively that can't be cared for by their parents and working to make the parent's supported and effective moms and dads is one of the only real antidotes to the perceived need for abortion. Many wonderful, smart pro-life groups and pro-choice groups get this and support moms in crisis. Helping a mom in need finish school or mentoring a pregnant woman and helping her find housing saves more babies than the more "you made your bed, lie in it" pro-life groups.[/QUOTE]


I agree 100%, Katie. Well said...and kind of what I was trying to (poorly) say!

[sste]

Well, probably everyone will be mad at me but I tend to think abortion is an over-rated issue. If one of my dearest goals in life was to prevent unneccessary deaths of innocent children I would 1) give up my car or cut down car usage dramatically and rearrange my life accordingly - - inconvenient but so is raising a child you don't want for 18 years; 2) research carefully all the products I buy and the involvement of child labor, particularly with toxic chemicals; 3) give a much greater share of my personal income to overseas programs for children, especially involving clean drinking water. These seem to me like bigger bang for the buck items in terms of protecting/prolonging childrens' lives than the abortion issue.

The sad reality is that I at least am too selfish to do much more than limit my use of the car and imported goods and to give a small portion of our income to overseas programs.

[BabyMine]

Yes, you or anyone are very much allowed to do that. But it does not result in the saving of any lives.

For me personally, taking care of babies individually and collectively that can't be cared for by their parents and working to make the parent's supported and effective moms and dads is one of the only real antidotes to the perceived need for abortion. Many wonderful, smart pro-life groups and pro-choice groups get this and support moms in crisis. Helping a mom in need finish school or mentoring a pregnant woman and helping her find housing saves more babies than the more "you made your bed, lie in it" pro-life groups.

They had a place here where they would allow youg single teen mom live and still be able to finish school. I think that is wonderful. The only problem is we had budget cuts and that was the first to go.

[Elilly]

For the record, I am a "cafeteria" Catholic. So, while I always thought that I personally was pro-life, I was pro-choice for other women. Then, I was pregnant with DS. His AFP was sky high with indicators for spina bifida. So much so that there was a question, after the first ultrasound, if he even had a fully formed skull. I had to wait 2 weeks to see another specialist. During that time, I swayed back and forth on what we would do if we were told that DS would have an unsurvivable defect. I can honestly say that if that were the situation, I would have likely terminated the pregnancy. I lost 13 lbs and was severely depressed in those two weeks, but the thought of continuing with a pregnancy that would ultimately end in a loss seemed futile to me. So, while I thought I knew what I would do in that situation, I was likely wrong.
I know that both sides of the issue often see their view as the only "right" answer, but my belief is the only "right" answer is what you choose at that time. I wish it were easier than that, that one way was always "right" or "wrong", but IMO, it just isn't.

[mamicka]

That's great for you. But until you are faced with a possible pregnancy after rape or raising a baby born of rape, I think there is a strong case that you really just don't know what you or anyone else would do.

I'm not responding to you directly, Katie, it's just yours is the latest post I've read about "walking in someone's shoes". I've said it before on other threads here, I am a victim of rape with a possible pregnancy. I thought I was pregnant for a few weeks - I may have been, I'll never know now. I've lived that scenario. Was I contemplating an abortion? Sure, it was an option I considered, even seriously considered. That didn't change how I felt about it or make me think it was ever an OK thing to do. I still knew the reality of what it was - that I'd be taking a life.

That being said, I don't think that me having lived that gives my opinion any more or less validity than any other.

[smiles33]

I'm not responding to you directly, Katie, it's just yours is the latest post I've read about "walking in someone's shoes". I've said it before on other threads here, I am a victim of rape with a possible pregnancy. I thought I was pregnant for a few weeks - I may have been, I'll never know now. I've lived that scenario. Was I contemplating an abortion? Sure, it was an option I considered, even seriously considered. That didn't change how I felt about it or make me think it was ever an OK thing to do. I still knew the reality of what it was - that I'd be taking a life.

That being said, I don't think that me having lived that gives my opinion any more or less validity than any other.

First, mamicka, I am truly sorry to learn that you are a rape survivor. :hug:I actually do give women more credit if they have faced the decision you have because you know the exact stress and emotional state involved. I'd also give more weight to a military veteran's opinion on war/peace because s/he has seen the actual battlefield and experienced the impact of those decisions first-hand.

I learned of the theory that rape is not just a sex crime but a crime of power/domination in my academic studies (I minored in Women's Studies). That's why I imagine that I might be more scared, angry,and vulnerable if I knew abortion was NOT an option were I raped. I would hope that I personally would carry the fetus to term and give the baby up for adoption, but I would want that choice, especially after having been violated.

I am pro-choice because I trust that other women are having painful, honest, heartfelt discussions/thoughts about the decision to abort. In my discussions with friends who have had abortions, NO ONE treated it as a casual decision/method of contraception.

[kijip]

I'm not responding to you directly, Katie, it's just yours is the latest post I've read about "walking in someone's shoes". I've said it before on other threads here, I am a victim of rape with a possible pregnancy. I thought I was pregnant for a few weeks - I may have been, I'll never know now. I've lived that scenario. Was I contemplating an abortion? Sure, it was an option I considered, even seriously considered. That didn't change how I felt about it or make me think it was ever an OK thing to do. I still knew the reality of what it was - that I'd be taking a life.

That being said, I don't think that me having lived that gives my opinion any more or less validity than any other.

I agree with you, I really do.

My mom came to see that she was a better parent for having had the choice to look at abortion. She felt like, raising the son of one of her attackers that the one thing she deserved was no regrets, not being trapped. Once she made that choice (she was pro-life for the most part) she was able to start to heal and face the colossal task she had ahead of her with my brother (she was 19, single, with little schooling, abusive family situation and having been raped by a number of strangers at the same time). Had there been no choice, she believed she would have been more likely to harm herself or my brother. It is also true that there are those that would say she should not have had the abortion option, but maligned her for, say, needing food stamps and a housing voucher (which she needed and she got).

When I say "you don't know until you are there" I don't mean to imply that everyone who has been there has the same opinion or belief, certainly not. But as a rape survivor, I still can't truly know what a pregnancy as the result of rape would do to me. I can speculate on the consequences of if I had had to have a baby at age 11, but all I can do is speculate. I just feel that everyone who has been there and sadly will be there should be legally protected to make the decision that they feel they can make. For their sake, of their own free will. It is a powerful thing to opt to bring life into this world. And it is a more powerful thing to do that when you were not wanting or prepared to do so. It is a still more powerful thing to chose to bring life into the world in the wake of sexual violence and raise that child with love and care. Having some power, the power of self determination, is what any rape survivor deserves.

[alexmommy]

Not had one, not needed one. I too am pro-life for myself (except for medical or rape), but pro-choice for others. Yes, abortion (voluntary, not D&C) is ending a life. There is not a nice way around that. But I can think of a couple of times in my life when, had I gotten pregnant, I might have had an abortion.

However, I feel that unless I personally am willing to take a pregnant woman/girl into my own home, and care for her and her child completely (financially, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, physically) for 18 years, then I have no place to tell her what to do or to make laws prohibiting her from it. Right now, I am not willing to do that. Our home is full and our budget is tight. Honestly, not sure I want to do that right now either. If I ever get to the place where I can and want to do such a thing, then I would consider being such a safe place for a woman/girl and her child.

I would hope there are organizations out there willing to provide long-term care for such women/girls and their children. Either that or encourage adoption more and completely take care of the women/girls during their pregnancy include counseling if needed.

[smiles33]

Well, probably everyone will be mad at me but I tend to think abortion is an over-rated issue. If one of my dearest goals in life was to prevent unneccessary deaths of innocent children I would 1) give up my car or cut down car usage dramatically and rearrange my life accordingly - - inconvenient but so is raising a child you don't want for 18 years; 2) research carefully all the products I buy and the involvement of child labor, particularly with toxic chemicals; 3) give a much greater share of my personal income to overseas programs for children, especially involving clean drinking water. These seem to me like bigger bang for the buck items in terms of protecting/prolonging childrens' lives than the abortion issue.

The sad reality is that I at least am too selfish to do much more than limit my use of the car and imported goods and to give a small portion of our income to overseas programs.

I actually think you have made a great point. If we as a society would invest time and money into helping educate all children, feed/clothe them, and otherwise improve conditions, there likely would be a much more significant and direct impact than spending time/money to prohibit abortion.

[Fairy]

Well, probably everyone will be mad at me but I tend to think abortion is an over-rated issue. If one of my dearest goals in life was to prevent unneccessary deaths of innocent children I would 1) give up my car or cut down car usage dramatically and rearrange my life accordingly - - inconvenient but so is raising a child you don't want for 18 years; 2) research carefully all the products I buy and the involvement of child labor, particularly with toxic chemicals; 3) give a much greater share of my personal income to overseas programs for children, especially involving clean drinking water. These seem to me like bigger bang for the buck items in terms of protecting/prolonging childrens' lives than the abortion issue.

The sad reality is that I at least am too selfish to do much more than limit my use of the car and imported goods and to give a small portion of our income to overseas programs.

Really, really well-said.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I don't want to stir up anymore controversy, but I do really try to be fair and see both sides.

For those that are pro-life, even after rape, and want to answer (you could PM, if you would prefer) what is the best solution for someone in a situation like mine. I suspected I could have been pregnant around age 11? If I was what do you think would have been a good solution.I really just want to understand the other sides POV.

[mommylamb]

I'm ok with talking about it here now because my sister decided to post it on her blog that I had one, thus making me the most f'ed up daughter in the world. She posted it and made sure to link to her post so my family could read it. The family that I fought so hard to keep this secret from, and that I fought so hard to get them to rebuild their trust in me. She also posted it while I was trying to get pregnant... so I started to think that my possible fertility issues were in some way caused by me terminating my pregnancy 16 years before.

So, those of you out there that think it's not ok, that's fine. You make the choices that are right for you, but, like the PP said- until you walk in my shoes, don't you dare tell me what is right for me.


OMG, what a terrible terrible thing to do to you. I am so sorry that this happened to you.

As for abortion, I really think it comes down to a separation of church and state issue in my mind. I really believe that people who believe life begins at conception have that belief because of its roots in their religious tradition. And, while they might not realize it, Their anti-choice beliefs are a means of pushing their religion and resulting belief structure on others.

I know a lot of people say things like "I'm pro-life for myself, but pro-choice for others." I understand the sentiment of saying that, but I think semantics matter. That just means you're pro-choice and your personal choice would be to not ever have an abortion. That's part of being pro-choice.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

As for abortion, I really think it comes down to a separation of church and state issue in my mind. I really believe that people who believe life begins at conception have that belief because of its roots in their religious tradition. And, while they might not realize it, Their anti-choice beliefs are a means of pushing their religion and resulting belief structure on others.



I agree that a lot of people form their beliefs regarding abortion based on their religion. I was raised Catholic, and that is one reason why I am now Agnostic.I disagreed with most religions on things like abortion, and felt like I was being hypocritical.

[Ceepa]

For me personally, taking care of babies individually and collectively that can't be cared for by their parents and working to make the parent's supported and effective moms and dads is one of the only real antidotes to the perceived need for abortion. Many wonderful, smart pro-life groups and pro-choice groups get this and support moms in crisis.

I was directly responding to this line:


For those who are fervently pro-life and condemn those who choose abortion, I hope they have come up with some practical solutions and put their money where their mouth is.

The post makes it sound that those who oppose abortion better foot the bill for women who elect not to have one but remain in difficult circumstances. As if this is a direct consequence of opposing abortion.

Katie, I honestly had you in mind when I initially wrote a response. It was something to the effect of 'besides Katie, who has made her convictions her life's work' I wonder just what the outspoken pro-choicers are doing to raise up these girls and women from their wretched life circumstances whether they have the kids or not. If you are so moved, you don't need a societal shift or a change to the law to get involved and make the difference in even one girl's life. Right?

I'm talking to those who so easily reprimand those of us who take a pro-life stand suggesting we are immune to the tragedies these girls/women face. Each member of my family is required to help those in need and crisis in our community. Yes, DC too. We feel strongly about this and our actions back it 100%.

Posters should take care not to advance the irresponsible, presumptuous idea that those who are pro-life lack compassion or charity.

[mamicka]

The post makes it sound that those who oppose abortion better foot the bill for women who elect not to have one but remain in difficult circumstances. As if this is a direct consequence of opposing abortion.

Katie, I honestly had you in mind when I initially wrote a response. It was something to the effect of 'besides Katie, who has made her convictions her life's work' I wonder just what the outspoken pro-choicers are doing to raise up these girls and women from their wretched life circumstances whether they have the kids or not. If you are so moved, you don't need a societal shift or a change to the law to get involved and make the difference in even one girl's life. Right?

I'm talking to those who so easily reprimand those of us who take a pro-life stand suggesting we are immune to the tragedies these girls/women face. Each member of my family is required to help those in need and crisis in our community. Yes, DC too. We feel strongly about this and our actions back it 100%.

Posters should take care not to advance the irresponsible, presumptuous idea that those who are pro-life lack compassion or charity.

I agree, Ceepa.

I also kind-of agree with SSTE, at least the spirit of what she's saying. I don't think that abortion is in any way a small thing to fight. However, I do think that this issue has roots in many things that people don't think about. Yes, the big issues the SSTE mentioned, but I think that we have a society that has created such a big mess & allowing abortions is just a band-aid. I've got much more to say but I've got to get off the computer.

[kijip]

Posters should take care not to advance the irresponsible, presumptuous idea that those who are pro-life lack compassion or charity.

I don't think that it is true that pro-life people uniformly lack compassion or charity or that pro-choice people uniformly emulate compassion and charity (though I don't actually fully believe in charity, I believe in social change). However, there are in fact many people whose positions are not consistent and who don't live their values (myself included in many ways). When people make fun of those needing assistance, deride those who make a decision they don't agree with (this does in fact happen, sometimes on these boards though not on these threads) it does open the box of "what exactly do people want to do with all of the kids, when our public and private support networks and foster care system is in so many cases broken?" I think it is in fact incumbent on people, Christians and people of faith especially, to radically choose to support their beliefs with firm, fearless, unwavering and sometimes painful, action. I am quite sure many conservatives here to live their beliefs, and that is awesome. But it does not change the fact that people's frustration with the inconsistencies do come from the valid place of knowing, IRL and in the public eye people and organizations who are more of the "you made your bed, lie in it" variety of conservatives who don't correlate the availability of assistance (be that public or private) with preventing abortions. Elizabeth Dole is an example of a conservative, that at least to some extent, cares more about practically reducing abortions than emotional grandstanding. There are of course more besides her. It is irresponsible and presumptuous to assume that charity alone can solve the problems that lead to women opting for an abortion- domestic violence, poverty, rape, inadequate access to birth control, a society that sexualizes young girls to the point where very young and young people feel compelled to consent to sex when they should have other things to do, to name a very few.

[fortato]

I would be interested to hear everyone's opinions on when they became ProLife or ProChoice. Was it something you decided later in life, or have you always been of that mindset?

I am ProChoice. I have always been ProChoice. I think about being a terrified 18 year old, and how that one choice I made changed my life. When I think about what a HUGE decision it was for me to make at 18, and the things that were going on in my head... and how being pregnant at that age was so much more scandalous than having an abortion... I thought it was right.

The day of my abortion also fell on the 11 year anniversary of the Roe v Wade decision, and there were picketers outside of the office, and the horrible things they said to me, and the pictures I had to look at on my way in didn't help my situation either.

[kijip]

Katie, I honestly had you in mind when I initially wrote a response. It was something to the effect of 'besides Katie, who has made her convictions her life's work' I wonder just what the outspoken pro-choicers are doing to raise up these girls and women from their wretched life circumstances whether they have the kids or not. If you are so moved, you don't need a societal shift or a change to the law to get involved and make the difference in even one girl's life. Right?

You are too kind to me. I am among the those that do far less than I could and I see it everyday. Food for thought, individual passionate action for the good of any others is a societal change. If I have convinced just one person (and I know I have convinced more than that) to do something to help someone in need and make that a life's priority, I have changed society. You have changed society by making helping those in need in your community a priority. If we have ever handed someone a choice that widens their array of choices and gives them a different future, we have changed society.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -Margaret Mead

No one can not say I am not optimistic. I consider myself an optimistic cynic.

[kijip]

I would be interested to hear everyone's opinions on when they became ProLife or ProChoice. Was it something you decided later in life, or have you always been of that mindset?

I became prochoice consciously and vocally when at a pro-life rally and march when I was about 12 or 13 and thought to myself (seriously, and I mean no offense) "What on earth is this going to accomplish anyways, what about people like my mom, what about me?" And I noticed that the men at the rally (it was a huge group, all of Western WA type event) seemed to be taking charge of it all and rather intimidated me. I developed a keen distrust of men taking control of this issue.

I was raised by people who were pro-life in what is IMO the purest form- mostly anti-abortion, anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-poverty, kickass, if somewhat dysfunctional activist Catholics. But I think I was always pro-choice, it was just at this rally I decided that I wanted nothing to do with the people I was seeing and listening to at the rally.

[Kymberley]

I would be interested to hear everyone's opinions on when they became ProLife or ProChoice. Was it something you decided later in life, or have you always been of that mindset?

I've always been Prolife. My life as a Christian has led me to be this way. I believe abortion to be murder, and murder is a sin.

***BUT***

Having sex before marriage (for example) is also a sin, and one that I have committed. Which is the greater of these two? Neither, they are equal. Therefore, I cannot judge another woman on what choice she makes. I truely hope I am never in a situation like a few of the brave women on here who have told their stories because I cannot honestly say what I would do. You ladies have given me a lot to think about.

[JBaxter]

I would be interested to hear everyone's opinions on when they became ProLife or ProChoice. Was it something you decided later in life, or have you always been of that mindset?

I am ProChoice. I have always been ProChoice. I think about being a terrified 18 year old, and how that one choice I made changed my life. When I think about what a HUGE decision it was for me to make at 18, and the things that were going on in my head... and how being pregnant at that age was so much more scandalous than having an abortion... I thought it was right.

The day of my abortion also fell on the 11 year anniversary of the Roe v Wade decision, and there were picketers outside of the office, and the horrible things they said to me, and the pictures I had to look at on my way in didn't help my situation either.


I have always been prolife. My religion says a life begins at conception. I find it hard to see how anyone could kill a baby growing in their body. Its just really not something I can wrap my brain around. I have lost 2 babies by m/c and my heart still aches for them. I would have given birth to them no matter what even if they were imperfect by some peoples standards. To me its probably the hardest to hear about abortions done for children that are imperfect. Rape is a horrible thing but its not the childs fault 2 wrongs do not make a right. How many abortions are really done for rape/insest vs convenience ?

[gatorsmom]

You ladies have given me a lot to think about.

Here is some more to think about. I thought this thread covered the topic really well.

http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=315115&highlight=abortion

[Kymberley]

Here is some more to think about. I thought this thread covered the topic really well.

http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=315115&highlight=abortion

Thank you! Wow, yes, lots to think about.

[kijip]

How many abortions are really done for rape/insest vs convenience ?

I don't know how many are really done for rape/incest (anyone who claims to know is full of it because of all the issues with rape stats) but I don't know of many at all that are done for convenience. I've never met anyone that took the decision lightly. In fact, because I grew up in the religious setting that I did, I personally know more people who were (and still are) pro-life who have had an abortion or opted to help an unmarried child have an abortion (even at age 18, 20, 24) than I do people who had an abortion and considered themselves pro-choice before it was an issue for them to decide.

[BabyMine]

Here is some more to think about. I thought this thread covered the topic really well.

http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=315115&highlight=abortion

Thank you. I love reading both sides.

[maydaymommy]

My religion teaches me that life does not begin at conception.

I don't care if your religion teaches you differently. That is your CHOICE.

I think it is indecent to try to assert a religious view upon people who do not share your beliefs.

I recognized this as the core of the argument at 16 and have been pro-choice ever since.

I think it is offensive to say that terminating a pregnancy for medical reasons is just doing it because it's an imperfect child. Really????

"Imperfect" is a far cry from "incompatible with life."

As to the first post in the thread linked to above, a newborn is not the same as the cells or tissue that forms at conception.

If this is a religious issue I don't understand what gives one group the right to try to assert their beliefs upon another.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I have always been pro-choice. I think women have the right to do what is best for them an their child since it is their body.
I find it ironic, that (I am generalizing and not at ALL referring to anything said here) :duck:Conservatives want less government and less social services, but want the gov't to make abortion a legal gov't matter (telling us what to do), but don't don't want to pay their taxes towards social services, but murder is okay if it is the death penalty. AGAIN generalizations not directed towards anyone here.
I was raised Catholic, but my family are liberal Catholics. They believe in gay marriage, legalizing pot, abortion, right-to-die, etc.So, since believing in these things directly contradicts Catholicism, I became Agnostic. Better to be Agnostic that to feel like a hypocrite.
I think being raped probably influenced my pc stance. If say, abortion was only available for rape victims, how could they prove it? What if it was a family member and the child was to scared to speak up? What about a case like mine where my attacker lived with me & (NOT my father) threatened to kill me with a butcher knife if I told? What could I do at 10? How could I have raised a child, when I was a child? I think the life that child would have had would be more inhumane than never being born at all. I believe in the death penalty in cases where there is no doubt regarding the prisoners guilt, abortion, and the right-to-die, all are murder I suppose. I realize the Constitution and the like are based on the belief in God, but also this country was founded on freedom of religion, so putting your religious beliefs on others isn't right in my opinion. I have no religion that dictates what I believe.
I do believe in birth control and do not believe abortion should be used in lieu of birth control. I think it is wrong, but I am not so perfect a being that I should be able to judge others and tell them what to do.

:duck:

I fully stand by what I said "Making things illegal does not prevent them from happening, it just creates more "criminals". Just because I believe that, which I view as a fact, doesn't make me an anarchist.
Making abortion illegal would not stop it, it would make children like myself that were raped criminals. I was a victim of a crime, yet I would have had to live with the consequences, not my attacker. Some people have the child born from rape & they are far better souls that I could pretend to be. I could not have done it, I think I would have hated the child. And no, I do not support anarchy, nor do I believe that all laws are correct. I don't see how my saying that abortion if made illegal, would create criminals, makes me an anarchist. I liken it to prohibition, which obviously didn't work, or marijuana being illegal, hasn't worked yet . "Back Alley" abortions happened, and at great risk to the mother. I would be naive to think that if tomorrow Roe V. Wade was repealed that abortion would never happen again.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

My religion teaches me that life does not begin at conception.

I don't care if your religion teaches you differently. That is your CHOICE.

I think it is indecent to try to assert a religious view upon people who do not share your beliefs.

I recognized this as the core of the argument at 16 and have been pro-choice ever since.

I think it is offensive to say that terminating a pregnancy for medical reasons is just doing it because it's an imperfect child. Really????

"Imperfect" is a far cry from "incompatible with life."

As to the first post in the thread linked to above, a newborn is not the same as the cells or tissue that forms at conception.

If this is a religious issue I don't understand what gives one group the right to try to assert their beliefs upon another.

Very well said. I think with the incompatible with life issue, isn't it more humane to terminate the pregnancy than to allow a child to be born for a few hours or maybe days, but to be poked with needles, have tubes shoved into them, never be able to breath on their own ,etc.

I pulled my fathers oxygen when at 6 feet tall he weighed less than 100 lbs and had a feeding tube, he was suffering and I felt selfish not letting him go...I think to have child that you know cannot survive, just to hold them and see them is selfish, too.

[gatorsmom]

...I think to have child that you know cannot survive, just to hold them and see them is selfish, too.

See there, i see it the opposite way. It would be heartbreaking for me to hold a baby in my arms that I knew wouldn't be there for long, but I feel like I would be giving it an incredible gift if even for a short time- the chance to know the feeling of being loved and snuggled by your mother.

[niccig]

I liken it to prohibition, which obviously didn't work, or marijuana being illegal, hasn't worked yet . "Back Alley" abortions happened, and at great risk to the mother. I would be naive to think that if tomorrow Roe V. Wade was repealed that abortion would never happen again.

A big yes to this. A member of my family is in his early 70's. His mother was pregnant with the family's 5th child, and the father decided that they couldn't have any more children and made her have a back alley abortion. This was in the late 1930s, so no access to birth control. She died leaving 4 children. My family member was 2 years old at the time, and was farmed out to different family members every couple of years. His life was profoundly affected by losing his mother at such a young age and the ripples continued on to his children. Abortions happened before Roe v Wade. The illegality will not stop it, but the legality does make it safer for women, who make this choice.

I was always pro-choice, I will not tell you what to do if faced with an unwanted pregnancy. My family member's story makes me even more pro-choice. No one should lose their mother or daughter or sister or aunt or cousin. I suppose my concerns are with the women first, as I've seen what can happen when there isn't safe options to terminating a pregnancy.

ETA. I did some quick searching for the earliest historical reference to abortion and found that Plato mentions abortions. For thousands of years there have been unwanted pregnancies and people have found ways to terminate the pregnancy. Making abortions illegal won't stop it from happening, and I'm pro-choice so women have a safe option and don't lose their lives. I'm also pro sex education and easy access to birth control and emergency contraception like Plan B to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

A big yes to this. A member of my family is in his early 70's. His mother was pregnant with the family's 5th child, and the father decided that they couldn't have any more children and made her have a back alley abortion. This was in the late 1930s, so no access to birth control. She died leaving 4 children. My family member was 2 years old at the time, and was farmed out to different family members every couple of years. His life was profoundly affected by losing his mother at such a young age and the ripples continued on to his children. Abortions happened before Roe v Wade. The illegality will not stop it, but the legality does make it safer for women, who make this choice.

I was always pro-choice, I will not tell you what to do if faced with an unwanted pregnancy. My family member's story makes me even more pro-choice. No one should lose their mother or daughter or sister or aunt or cousin. I suppose my concerns are with the women first, as I've seen what can happen when there isn't safe access to terminating a pregnancy.

When I was 2 my mother was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and I was sent to live with family....She died a few weeks after my 5th birthday no child deserves that.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

See there, i see it the opposite way. It would be heartbreaking for me to hold a baby in my arms that I knew wouldn't be there for long, but I feel like I would be giving it an incredible gift if even for a short time- the chance to know the feeling of being loved and snuggled by your mother.

I can see your side and I respect your opinion.I think you are one of the most productive posters here.That said,sometimes the children are only held for a few minutes by their parents, if that and the majority of time is in a plastic incubator kept a live by machines. I think if I were older and had to make a choice about whether I wanted to have the plugged pulled or live hooked up to machines, I would chose the latter.
I totally respect you, and hope that my post is not offensive. We both feel very strongly, but on opposite sides. I always try to be respectful, and love that we can have such different opinions about such hot topics, but to me the BBB is most always a friendly place.

[sariana]

To open a new can of worms, I don't understand how people can make abortion the be-all and end-all issue. Take the healthcre bill, for example. Some members of Congress refuse to support any bill that would allow a single cent of federal funds to go toward abortion.

How can that one single issue be more important than ensuring that all women have access to decent prenatal care, so that keeping the baby is a real, viable option? How can that one single issue be more important than ensuring that all infants have acces to well-baby care, so that keeping that baby healthy is a real possibility? How can that one single issue be more important than ensuring that all children have access to immunizations and other preventive care, so that reaching adulthood and even facing the choice of having an abortion is as guaranteed as it ever can be?

The fact that anyone ever has to face the choice of whether to terminate a pregnancy is a terrible thing. We all wish that all fetuses could be viable and that all children could be healthy. We all wish that no woman was ever put in the position of having to make such a choice.

But the world is not a perfect place. It is not a black and white existence. Sometimes the best solution is merely the least bad. Whether abortion is murder or not may be irrelevant. The question a society must ask is what is best for the society as a whole? Issues of morality and ethics ultimately come down to the individual.

That is why I am pro-choice. I wish no one ever had to get an abortion. But the gods of fertility and conception never asked me about my wishes.

It is also why I respect others' right to be pro-life. It is an individual choice about one's individual actions. I know the argument is that the innocent child isn't given a choice. I know that. That's where the "least bad" comes in. Sometimes there isn't a right answer. Life isn't a Scantron test.

[kijip]

Sometimes there isn't a right answer. Life isn't a Scantron test.

Word. Seriously, I love this.

Upthread I said that is was nice (great?) for Melaine to have a firm belief and I just want to explain that for me that is because it truly is nice to have opinions where you see things perfectly clearly with a totally right and a totally wrong answer. But I just don't have so many beliefs like that, because I can't see most things in black and white, I just can't.

In the dead of night, snuggled close to my husband I know that I believe life does begin at or near conception. Heck, in many ways my kids' lives started before they were conceived, the second my husband and I looked at each other and said "wow, this is for keeps" and leaped headfirst into marriage. I am a very conservative person when it comes to sex and I believe that I took on a huge responsibility when I married him and became sexually active and opened myself up to the possibility of causing a pregnancy. And it follows that I find abortion a very murky matter- let's not forget that my parents were not exactly forgiving on life and social justice issues and they were very pro-life. But I don't see how I could restrict what I see as having truly saved a lot of women from a world of hurt. Women have been controlled by men's control of their fertility for so darn long. And again, like many posters, I can NOT defend making myself the arbitrator of what is right and wrong for others to believe and do on the subject of abortion.

[shilo]

no, i have not ended a viable pregnancy, but then my life circumstances have never put me in a position to have to make that choice. hugs to all of you who's life circumstances have brought you to having to make such a heart wrenching choice, and i respect each and every one of you for making the best choice for you.

[Fairy]

I would be interested to hear everyone's opinions on when they became ProLife or ProChoice. Was it something you decided later in life, or have you always been of that mindset?

I am ProChoice. I have always been ProChoice. I think about being a terrified 18 year old, and how that one choice I made changed my life. When I think about what a HUGE decision it was for me to make at 18, and the things that were going on in my head... and how being pregnant at that age was so much more scandalous than having an abortion... I thought it was right.

The day of my abortion also fell on the 11 year anniversary of the Roe v Wade decision, and there were picketers outside of the office, and the horrible things they said to me, and the pictures I had to look at on my way in didn't help my situation either.

Kristen, that is terrible. I really feel badly for what you went thru. Your comments have really struck me. Just wanted to say that.

I wanted to comment on the question you asked, as now that you've asked it, I'm interested in replies, as well. I've understood how the body works, human reproduction, and childbirth and/or abortion for longer than most people I know IRL. Like being 5yo and knowing how a baby happens, being 9yo and understanding what an abortion is. No one foisted their opinions on me, I just decided them on my own. However, two things shaped alot of my emotional feelings on abortion and my fervent believe in being pro-choice.

A) When I was 11, I was at a friend's house who I later, tho not at that time, became bitter enemies with in HS (and now FB with, it's a weird world). She may have lived like a yankee, but she was bible belt evangelist if there ever was one. At eleven! She and her mother showed me anti-abortion pamphlets of the most graphic, horrific stuff you ever wanted to see in your life, gave me nightmares. Full term baby graphic stuff, not embryonic or first three month fetal. And I knew immediately that this was garbage. Even at eleven, I knew that what I was seeing was completely misleading or maybe even lies, but misleading at least. I was a smart girl, but I didn't know what to do with the emotion so I just felt strange. I told my mother, and she had the mother of all cows. I have never ever forgotten that image. I do *not* want to debate late term abortions, too late, probably, there will probably be a post about it as a result of mine, but I'm betting you not to, I just want to answer Kristen's question, so I really don't want to debate, and I will not. I'm simply saying what my experiene was, that I knew the veracity or at least context of those photos was completely false, and the bottom line is that those pamplets solidified my pro-choicedness when I was old enough to understand the debate.

B) When I was a Junior in HS, we were required to take health, and so the teacher one day showed up in class with those very same pamphlets. I about fell over. I was very very upset and I called him on it right there in teh classroom saying what makes these terrible photos that are not what an abortion is about part of the curriculum. How dare he visit his opinions, which he's entitled to, on our HS health class. What gives him the right to show us ... I don't want to say it, but the photos in the pamphlet ... when our textbook talked about embryonic abortions? I really let him have it, and he kicked me out of class, and I said he can't kick me out, I'm leaving, and I don't know how I was not expelled for the ripping I bestowed upon my teacher (that idiot) and headed right for my counsellor. I told him what happened, and I was crying, and he started counselling me in the strangest way. Asking me how my emotions are impacting this topic and that am I biased to feel this way because of personal issues, etc., and I'm WAY paraphrasing, but he clearly thought *I* had had an abortion. I told him no no no! I was just mad that he was misrepresenting AND is he even allowed to say abortion is wrong, and the guy really thought I was covering for my own experience. And for weeks, I was suspected of having had an abortion by my counsellor, but I talked tot he head of the department, and the teacher never once referenced the whole incident, it was like it never happened. It was WEIRD. Reinforced my stance. AT 16. Interestingly, the kids did not flay me like they could have. The entire thing just got ignored. I still think about it.

There ya have it. I support pro-lifers just as much as I support pro-choicers like me. I don't support not being shown the same courtesy. I also do not support misrepresentation. But whatever your conviction is in this highly sensitive, non-scantron (love it) area, I will support your right to have it.

I admire everyone's bravery for posting their stories of their experiences. I really do. Not what I just posted in answer to her question, but I mean the real life decisions and sharing that here. Very brave.

[dogmom]

I'm a little late posting to this thread. I would put myself strongly in the prochoice camp. I have never had an abortion (the medical term "therapeutic abortion" as it is referred to, a miscarriage is spontaneous abortion). However, knowing how many of my friends have had abortions, legal and illegal (I have some older friends), I would guest the poll numbers are a little off. There were certainly times I would have terminated a pregnancy in my life.

To add something new to this thread it always surprises me that the physical threat of death or serious injury to a mother is never taken into consideration. I’ve dealt with several cases of otherwise health mothers having strokes, dissecting coronary arteries, burst aneurysms, cancers that grew faster because or pregnancy, several resulting in deaths. I realize that this isn’t common, current rates are 8 out of 100,000 for the US. However, I also know if there is a person that has a perfect bone marrow match for my kid dying of Leukemia I can’t force that person to donate bone marrow; even if there has never been one case of a person dying or being seriously injured by donating bone marrow. Although getting the numbers of complications due to abortions is difficult at best (talk about a statistic full of political issues), I got to say I’ve never taken care some woman dying or seriously injured from a therapeutic abortion. So I do not feel like I shouldn’t be forcing a woman to bring a child to term that she doesn’t want to.

I used to get all worked up by the rape/incest argument. But, honestly, if you really think abortion is morally wrong an on the level of murder I would expect people to oppose it no matter what. Likewise, since I an not morally opposed to abortion I don’t think it is my job to decided (for someone else) that these list of reasons are acceptable for abortion (rape/incest, too young, horrible birth defects) and an unacceptable reason (never getting one’s act together to use birth control).

That’s my 2 cents. Thanks to everyone for keeping this civil.

[smiles33]

The post makes it sound that those who oppose abortion better foot the bill for women who elect not to have one but remain in difficult circumstances. As if this is a direct consequence of opposing abortion.

Katie, I honestly had you in mind when I initially wrote a response. It was something to the effect of 'besides Katie, who has made her convictions her life's work' I wonder just what the outspoken pro-choicers are doing to raise up these girls and women from their wretched life circumstances whether they have the kids or not. If you are so moved, you don't need a societal shift or a change to the law to get involved and make the difference in even one girl's life. Right?

I'm talking to those who so easily reprimand those of us who take a pro-life stand suggesting we are immune to the tragedies these girls/women face. Each member of my family is required to help those in need and crisis in our community. Yes, DC too. We feel strongly about this and our actions back it 100%.

Posters should take care not to advance the irresponsible, presumptuous idea that those who are pro-life lack compassion or charity.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me, but since you quoted my initial post, it might be. If so, let me apologize for somehow conveying that perception. My point that seemed to be more opaque than I intended (must be lack of sleep, as my 9 month old is teething and up every few hours), was that if pro-lifers successfully prohibit abortion, I sincerely hope the laws will also provide some PRACTICAL solution beyond just "You made your bed, now lie in it." Women who opt for abortions are sometimes desperate and unable to make any other decision without being thrown on the street, homeless and without a job or any other support.

I also wanted to point out that I, as many of my fellow pro-choicers have done, have made a number of decisions to support my political opinion. Some range from the easy (like supporting women and girls in my personal life) and some have required a higher commitment, like dedicating my career to public service, working in nonprofits to serve individuals who sometimes have no other recourse. I have also financially supported leadership development and other important (but not as critical) life lessons for young girls and women, as well as served on the Boards of nonprofits that empower young girls.

I think there can be a range of actions that folks take to support their political opinions. I'm not suggesting every pro-lifer "adopt" a pregnant woman and move her into your home. What I do suggest is that if you feel strongly about your opinions, as it seems all of us posting on this thread do, you should take actions to support those views. I would hope this would be financial support of nonprofits and individuals and voting for candidates who share your opinions. Sadly, there are those donating money to extremists who want to kill the doctors who provide abortions, which is truly terrifying to me (obviously no one visiting this board).

All of this is a longwinded explanation that goes back to my first point that may have not been as artfully said as I had hoped: it's all too easy to NOT put your money where your mouth is.

[MelissaTC]

I fully believe in the right to have legal abortions, but I don't *think* I could ever have one. Making things illegal does not prevent them from happening, it just creates more "criminals".
Before we got married we agree that if the baby had Downs Syndrome or the like, we would have an abortion.While pregnant with DD she was screened for Downs, etc. I told DD before the test that no matter what it showed I was having her and that if he had an issue he could file for divorce.... I thought I knew what I would have done, but once I was pregnant things changed for me.

Until you have been in someone else's shoes you cannot understand their choices. I too read this poll as an abortion by choice, not a spontaneous one, etc. Two completely different things.

I am not sure why you quoted my post with your opinion. I don't know if you mean the collective you or you are speaking directly to me. I meant that I am thankful that I have never had to make the decision. I don't like to share too much personal information on here but let's just say that I could have been in such a position and thank God every single day that I wound up not being pregnant. I am very much pro-choice and respect a woman's right to choose what is best for her.

[JBaxter]

Very well said. I think with the incompatible with life issue, isn't it more humane to terminate the pregnancy than to allow a child to be born for a few hours or maybe days, but to be poked with needles, have tubes shoved into them, never be able to breath on their own ,etc.

I pulled my fathers oxygen when at 6 feet tall he weighed less than 100 lbs and had a feeding tube, he was suffering and I felt selfish not letting him go...I think to have child that you know cannot survive, just to hold them and see them is selfish, too.

That is not the case. Why would you not want those few precious moments / days with your child to hold and love? It is the ONLY chance you have with that child. No the child does not have to have measures to sustain life. You can go that route if you choose but you can also request no intervention.

[BabyMine]

A couple questions. I wish more men would chime in. Of course they're probably thinking they are smarter if they just stay out. I would still like to hear from them.

- For those who are pro life. Do you think if someone is pro choice they are pro abortion?

- Why is the word abortion such a bad word? Wether it is elective or spontaneous, or other tye, they are still the same. A person who has had an abortion for any reason should be shamed for one reason but pity for the other. It is a medical term.

- If the health care passes w/o funding for abortions does that mean women with spontaneous abortions will not be helped?

- If it was a mother's life or baby's life situation what would pro lifers do? Do you let them both die? If you do chose isn't that saying that one life is more important than anothers?

I'm not trying to be snarky these are just questions that bug me. Because I am, and everyone I know of, pro choice it's hard to get the other sides opinion.

[mommylamb]

I would be interested to hear everyone's opinions on when they became ProLife or ProChoice. Was it something you decided later in life, or have you always been of that mindset?


Like you, I've always been pro-choice. I grew up in a family where both my parents are pro-choice. But, when I was 16, two of my best friends got pregnant within 3 months of each other, and it was also just as I was becoming sexually active. Both of them had abortions. I know it was a difficult decision for both of them. Watching them go through that experience really cemented for me why I'm pro-choice.

[mamicka]

But it does not change the fact that people's frustration with the inconsistencies do come from the valid place of knowing, IRL and in the public eye people and organizations who are more of the "you made your bed, lie in it" variety of conservatives who don't correlate the availability of assistance (be that public or private) with preventing abortions. Elizabeth Dole is an example of a conservative, that at least to some extent, cares more about practically reducing abortions than emotional grandstanding.

You're right. But it also doesn't change the other side - I can't even count how many people I know who have had multiple abortions because of irresponsible sexual activity - by their own choice. & then justify their action because some people are raped (as I said above, I was raped - I was not glad to have the choice of abortion even thought I would have likely chosen it). Yes, I know these people intimately, not just casual friendships. I know one girl who had 7 - she was pregnant 7 times by the same boyfriend. Allowing the abortions fixes nothing. I think that we as individuals need to take a long hard look in the mirror & look at what we do to create a society where we've gotten to this point. Why do young people grow up not only thinking it's OK, even expected, that you have such intimate sexual activity before you're ready to take responsibility for the consequences?

[g-mama]

I think it is offensive to say that terminating a pregnancy for medical reasons is just doing it because it's an imperfect child. Really????

"Imperfect" is a far cry from "incompatible with life."



Are you saying that a baby with Down Syndrome is anything worse than "imperfect?" I'm confused by this statement. I have heard people say (here and IRL) that they *would* terminate for something like Down Syndrome, and that is where I have a problem. Not when the mother is going to die or the baby is not going to be able to live. There is a HUGE difference.

My 4yo nephew has DS and I can't tell you how many people said things alone the lines of "Too bad she didn't know before he was born so they could've done something about it." That makes me feel sick to my stomach.

[mommylamb]

- If the health care passes w/o funding for abortions does that mean women with spontaneous abortions will not be helped?


I'm going to take a crack at the health care bill issue. So, what's at issue in the bill is that people who are considered eligible under the criteria set out in the bill would receive subsidies to help them with the cost of health care (as in, the person pays X towards health care, and get a subsidy from the government to cover the rest of the cost). The anti-choice groups/members of Congress have argued that anyone who receives a subsidy should not be able to choose a health care option that includes coverage for abortion (whether or not they ever use that particular service). They argue that this amounts to federal subsidies for abortion.

One of the concerns pro-choice groups/members have had with this is that health care providers may stop offering abortion services entirely rather than design new plans to accommodate the requirement in the bill because of the administrative hassle of doing so.

The pro-choice groups/members of Congress have said that in order to prevent any federal money from going to abortion, that the dollars spent by insurance companies on abortion should come from the money the individual pays towards their health coverage, not the portion of the money coming from the government.

There is precedence for this. Consider that religious institutions get a lot of Federal grant dollars, but that the Federal government bars those groups from using that money for proselytizing. They just funnel private dollars into their proselytizing and use the public dollars for the other activities.

As for whether the anti-choice language in the House bill (preventing anyone getting a subsidy to choose a health plan that provides abortion as a service), would cause a problem for those who have a m/c and require a D&C, that's an interesting question. I imagine it will depend on how the regulations are written once the bill is passed (if it passes with that language and if they ever finish it). I don't know if the bill language speaks to that at all.

[khalloc]

No, I've never had one. I probably would never have one. But before I had my own kids I would have considered abortion if I had an unplanned pregnancy.

I think if you want an abortion then you should be able to get one.

[Moneypenny]

As to when I became pro-choice, I latched on to this as my stance when I was a teenager because it fit in with my other liberal-minded viewpoints. The religion of my childhood never taught that life begins at conception, and my parents were of the mind that it was most respectful to my brother and I to let us come to our own opinions on these matters than to try to convince us to share their opinions.

I became more staunchly pro-choice after having my daughter (who is much beloved and was very much planned for!) if only because I finally realized what it takes to raise a child. It was the first time I realized how desperate it must feel to be faced with the all-consuming reality of being a parent and not having the means to be able to do so.

[kijip]

Why do young people grow up not only thinking it's OK, even expected, that you have such intimate sexual activity

Upthread, I mention this specifically as something that needs to be fixed to reduce the number of abortions. Still, I know that there are those, even conservative Christians, who engage in early sexual activity. I can't police that. I can just try and give young people better information so that they make better choices.

You say that abortion solves nothing. Well, I am not sure I see what women having babies they don't want and can't care for solves either. While you know many women who have had more than 1 abortion, the statistics bear out that most women have 1 in this country (by far). Economic pressures are the #1 reason people abort. If people want to prevent abortions, the biggest bang for your buck is working for economic justice.

[Reyadawnbringer]

I am just wondering why there is now a suggestion to lock this thread? I haven't yet had a chance to pot my point of view and I have read all the posts and dont think it has gotten ugly in the least. This thread was started at a time when I didn't have a chance to read everything and post my POV thoroughly. I also don't happen to have the time to adequately post my POV right now as I am at work. I would hate to see this thread locked up so that no one else has a chance to say anything, especially when things have been so civil.

[Corie]

I can't even count how many people I know who have had multiple abortions because of irresponsible sexual activity - by their own choice.


Yes, I know these people intimately, not just casual friendships. I know one girl who had 7 - she was pregnant 7 times by the same boyfriend.


I'm actually very surprised by this!! How do you know so many people
who have had multiple abortions? And exactly how does this come up in conversation?

I'm not being mean, just nosy.

[SnuggleBuggles]

I'm actually very surprised by this!! How do you know so many people
who have had multiple abortions? And exactly how does this come up in conversation?

I'm not being mean, just nosy.

Corie, I think that she discusses it in that other thread that Lisa linked to earlier in this thread.
Beth

[Leeannpk]

I can't even count how many people I know who have had multiple abortions because of irresponsible sexual activity - by their own choice.

REALLY?

I am sure these people exist, but I cannot fathom knowing several of them. I know some people who have had abortions, and without exception it was a gut wrenching choice to have to make.

Holding up a *very small* minority of women who have had 4 or 5 or 6 abortions as an example of the "typical" person who seeks an abortion is like lumping someone who drives 5-10 miles over the speed limit in with drunk drivers. It's misleading, extremist, and it greatly weakens the impact of the pro-life movement.

[ErinMC]

I've never had an abortion, and can't ever seeing myself doing it unless it were a matter of life and death for myself.

However, I also don't believe in pushing my beliefs on other people. I agree that abortion should remain legal & controlled. I do not believe in late term abortions. I believe that any woman who conceives because of rape, should have the opportunity if they so desire.

My feelings exactly.

[ErinMC]

********WARNING******



1

This was years and years ago. I turned 18 and the next day was the procedure. The OBGYN botched it and I had to have another one. He did this w/o anesthesia. When I screamed and tried to grab the nurse's hand she backed away. The room was soundproof so nobody could hear me scream. When the OBGYN did the first one he sent me home with advil. Becasue of his error I hurt so bad a friend gave me percocet. I went to the ER later that night. When the ER DR called my OBGYN he said I was faking it. So the ER Dr. told me this and sent me home. The next day I went and saw a collegue of the OBGYNs. I told him about the percocet to let him know how much pain I was in. He told me I was a druggy and was going to hell for what I did. He then told me that I had to have it done again becasue there was some left behind. I had the same OBGYN as before and endured the same treatment.

I don't have regrets of why, but I have contempt for this OGBYN. Years later I found out he had 3 outstanding malpractice suits. In high school I had 3 friends who had them. I thought I would never do it. I couldn't understand how they could. After I found out I was pregnant I found out how. I was told that becasue the original OBGYN had done so much damage that I would never be able to have children. DH and I were fine with that. For that reason I don't judge anyone anymore. Ready for this one. We never used conception after that. 10 years later to. the. date. of that fetus's conception date we concieved M. We call M our miracle baby. I don't mind telling people becasue it was my choice and the right one at the time. DH do think of what if we didn't do it. We can't imagine being parents to an almost 16yo.

Jenn, what a horrible experience for you to go through, especially at such a young age! Your strength in sharing it is amazing. M. is definitely your miracle baby!

[Fairy]

Who the heck is saying to lock the thread?! I have made it known that I don't like these discussions on this board cuz they never lead anywhere but to arguments and true anger and resentment. However, this has been a pretty civil discussion. So civil for the first time that I've read, IMO in my experience here that i've actually appreciated the views expressed that are diametrically opposed to my own because they're couched in a very civil and respectful understanding that we are not all going to agree, but here's how I feel. Some off comments here and there, but I don't see anyone suggesting to lock the thread.

[BabyMine]

I'm going to take a crack at the health care bill issue. So, what's at issue in the bill is that people who are considered eligible under the criteria set out in the bill would receive subsidies to help them with the cost of health care (as in, the person pays X towards health care, and get a subsidy from the government to cover the rest of the cost). The anti-choice groups/members of Congress have argued that anyone who receives a subsidy should not be able to choose a health care option that includes coverage for abortion (whether or not they ever use that particular service). They argue that this amounts to federal subsidies for abortion.

One of the concerns pro-choice groups/members have had with this is that health care providers may stop offering abortion services entirely rather than design new plans to accommodate the requirement in the bill because of the administrative hassle of doing so.

The pro-choice groups/members of Congress have said that in order to prevent any federal money from going to abortion, that the dollars spent by insurance companies on abortion should come from the money the individual pays towards their health coverage, not the portion of the money coming from the government.

There is precedence for this. Consider that religious institutions get a lot of Federal grant dollars, but that the Federal government bars those groups from using that money for proselytizing. They just funnel private dollars into their proselytizing and use the public dollars for the other activities.

As for whether the anti-choice language in the House bill (preventing anyone getting a subsidy to choose a health plan that provides abortion as a service), would cause a problem for those who have a m/c and require a D&C, that's an interesting question. I imagine it will depend on how the regulations are written once the bill is passed (if it passes with that language and if they ever finish it). I don't know if the bill language speaks to that at all.

:bowdown: Thank you, Thank you, Thank you

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I am not sure why you quoted my post with your opinion. I don't know if you mean the collective you or you are speaking directly to me. I meant that I am thankful that I have never had to make the decision. I don't like to share too much personal information on here but let's just say that I could have been in such a position and thank God every single day that I wound up not being pregnant. I am very much pro-choice and respect a woman's right to choose what is best for her.

I don't see where I quoted you. Those were my words. I may have said the same thing, but those were my words. I wasn't quoting anyone. If I do I quote, I quote the whole thing (as I am not savvy enough to do otherwise, even after 2,000+ posts) :)

[JBaxter]

I do know several people who have had at least 2 abortions for convenience sake. "just didnt feel ready" "wanted to finish college" Oh and "wasnt SURE who the baby belonged to" One girl didnt realize she was pregnant until she started to feel the baby move. ( the didnt want the stretch marks girl)

[AnnieW625]

I had to make a similar decision to Mom2BinSD because our baby had Trisomy 18 (three chromosomes at 18), which at my age (31) was a 1 in 60,000 chance. The baby had less than a 5% chance of being born alive, and then less than a 3% chance of living to it's first birthday. Most babies w/ tri-18 only live for hours and maybe a week if they are not still born. It was the hardest decision I have ever had to make in my life and I hope to never have to make that decision again. We had an amazing medical staff at Kaiser Bellflower/Downey that helped up with our decision and the surgery center that performed the service (outside provider) was excellent during that time. I was 6 mos. along when the procedure was done.

Also I am a devout Catholic and would never ever considered an abortion had it not been medically necessary.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

That is not the case. Why would you not want those few precious moments / days with your child to hold and love? It is the ONLY chance you have with that child. No the child does not have to have measures to sustain life. You can go that route if you choose but you can also request no intervention.

What if you never got to hold your child alive? I think, and it is my opinion, if I were a living being that would only suffer, I would chose not to live.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

You're right. But it also doesn't change the other side - I can't even count how many people I know who have had multiple abortions because of irresponsible sexual activity - by their own choice. & then justify their action because some people are raped (as I said above, I was raped - I was not glad to have the choice of abortion even thought I would have likely chosen it). Yes, I know these people intimately, not just casual friendships. I know one girl who had 7 - she was pregnant 7 times by the same boyfriend. Allowing the abortions fixes nothing. I think that we as individuals need to take a long hard look in the mirror & look at what we do to create a society where we've gotten to this point. Why do young people grow up not only thinking it's OK, even expected, that you have such intimate sexual activity before you're ready to take responsibility for the consequences?

I totally agree. I think abortion in lieu of BC is wrong. This world is so sexualized that somehow it is so casual today, both sex and abortion.

[BabyMine]

One girl didnt realize she was pregnant until she started to feel the baby move. ( the didnt want the stretch marks girl)

That is so sad. When I was at the perinatologist, pregnant with DS2 getting my 3D, the tech told me about a couple who aborted becasue they found out their son had hypospadias (https://health.google.com/health/ref/Hypospadias). M had that, plus other fun stuff, and it was an hour surgery to fix it. My OBGYN told me of a couple that had been trying for years to concieve. The finally did IVF. On the third try they became pregnant. Unfortunately by then they weren't getting along. They decided to abort rather than be tied for life together. So sad.

[arivecchi]

I am pro-choice. Hugs to all of those who have had to make this heart-wrenching decision.

[JBaxter]

What if you never got to hold your child alive? I think, and it is my opinion, if I were a living being that would only suffer, I would chose not to live.

Yes I would carry a baby and give birth to a baby no matter what. I would get to hold and say good bye to the precious angel that grew inside my body.

Do you think a baby does not feel pain during an abortion?

Read Gianna Jessens story. She survived her mothers saline abortion.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

Yes I would carry a baby and give birth to a baby no matter what. I would get to hold and say good bye to the precious angel that grew inside my body.

Do you think a baby does not feel pain during an abortion?

Read Gianna Jessens story. She survived her mothers saline abortion.

I wouldn't. But I can see where you are coming from and respect your opinion, even though I would do it different. I just think being poked and prodded in the hospital would be more painful. And I wonder if a baby has a severe congenital abnormality, is it painful inside the uterus as well? Obviously we cannot know. I am also pro DNR for adults that chose that. Both my parents were at some point. To me, and maybe it is just me, they are similar. I think if I were in the position of the baby to be held for a few minutes wouldn't be worth the suffering.

Thanks for being so civil on a sensitive subject, even though our POV is very different.

I just read about Gianna. I think late term abortions should only be performed if the mother's life is at HIGH risk. If it was elected, that to me is horrible. Which it seems like it was, and I personally feel that is just plain wrong.

If I had to make the decision that late, I would really struggle. I would want my child to live, but I grew up with no mother, I only lived with her for 2.5 years, the age DD is now, and it breaks my heart to think of my child growing up with no mother with the feelings of being abandoned, like I did.

[Reyadawnbringer]

Yes I would carry a baby and give birth to a baby no matter what. I would get to hold and say good bye to the precious angel that grew inside my body.

Do you think a baby does not feel pain during an abortion?

Read Gianna Jessens story. She survived her mothers saline abortion.

I just read that as you suggested and the specified that she was the victim of a late term abortion (30 weeks). My understanding is that those are NOT common. There is a HUGE difference IMO.

[AnnieW625]

What if you never got to hold your child alive? I think, and it is my opinion, if I were a living being that would only suffer, I would chose not to live.

That would've been me too, and I had the choice to see my baby after the procedure, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I don't know how I would've handled that at all, and DH knew it too so that was a HUGE part of our decision. He knew it was not healthy for me to continue the pregnancy. And also I went into knowing that there was something wrong at about 20 weeks and just thinking "oh why should I have an amnio, it won't change my mind, I'll still keep the baby." My heart ached for a couple in the waiting room at my last appt. who was waiting to see the genetic counselor and they said those exact same words. It's easy to say those words, but until you've been told you don't know how long your baby is going to live or that it can be born dead you can't put yourself in those shoes.

[JBaxter]

Question for pro - choice people

What is your cut off for when a woman no longer has a choice or do you think a woman should have the legal right for any reason to abort at any time for any reason?

Just curious when its not ok for you

[fortato]

I worry that I'm being lumped into the "Abortion for convenience" group. I only had one, and it wasn't because we didn't use BC- had a condom AND sponge that failed. Yeah. I'm that 1% on the box.

What I wouldn't do to know what my baby would have been like. I think about him or her every day. I think about how I could have a 16 year old now at my age, and how different my life would be right now. My DH wouldn't have married me if I had a kid, I wouldn't have Jack, and I wouldn't be carrying the baby I am now.


Thank you all for keeping this thread civil, and not attacking each other for our beliefs. It means a lot to be able to talk about this now with adults.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

That would've been me too, and I had the choice to see my baby after the procedure, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I don't know how I would've handled that at all, and DH knew it too so that was a HUGE part of our decision. He knew it was not healthy for me to continue the pregnancy. And also I went into knowing that there was something wrong at about 20 weeks and just thinking "oh why should I have an amnio, it won't change my mind, I'll still keep the baby." My heart ached for a couple in the waiting room at my last appt. who was waiting to see the genetic counselor and they said those exact same words. It's easy to say those words, but until you've been told you don't know how long your baby is going to live or that it can be born dead you can't put yourself in those shoes.

I CANNOT imagine how hard that was for you both, but I think I would have done the same thing. Sometimes there are no easy solutions, just the choice between two less than ideal options. Every time I see you sig, I think how hard that was for you. :hug: I am so sorry.

[mamicka]

I'm actually very surprised by this!! How do you know so many people
who have had multiple abortions? And exactly how does this come up in conversation?

I'm not being mean, just nosy.

Because it isn't something that they were ashamed of. Because it isn't uncommon. It comes up because we discuss these topics among friends. I'm not only friends with people who agree with me.

[fortato]

To answer Jeana's question-

I had always thought that abortion in the first trimester was "okay", but I know more about fetal development now, and couldn't really tell you when I think it's ok to do it. I was 5 weeks along when I had mine, and I'm, actually, ok with that. Or, as ok as I can be.

[AnnieW625]

I CANNOT imagine how hard that was for you both, but I think I would have done the same thing. Sometimes there are no easy solutions, just the choice between two less than ideal options. Every time I see you sig, I think how hard that was for you. :hug: I am so sorry.

Thanks so much for the hugs. Yeah my sig. tears at my everytime I see it and it took me a long time to put it up there, but I just had to do it. I sometimes even wonder if I should be calling this healthy baby #3 instead of #2, but I just haven't gotten that far yet.

[JBaxter]

To answer Jeana's question-

I had always thought that abortion in the first trimester was "okay", but I know more about fetal development now, and couldn't really tell you when I think it's ok to do it. I was 5 weeks along when I had mine, and I'm, actually, ok with that. Or, as ok as I can be.

Kristen I love ya girl and know it was hard and we all have to live with mistakes and choices we've made and hope we can become better people for our selves and our children. Hugs to you.

[kijip]

Question for pro - choice people

What is your cut off for when a woman no longer has a choice or do you think a woman should have the legal right for any reason to abort at any time for any reason?

Just curious when its not ok for you

I live in a state that legally specifically protects abortion rights, and in one of the most liberal larger cities in the country. IIRC there is no provider here that will perform an abortion past 22 (24?) weeks unless it is a medical necessity. All of the women I know who have had abortions past that point are women who wanted the pregnancy to continue to term.

I generally think that if someone elects to have an abortion that they can make that decision before the fetus is viable outside of the womb. Most all of these elective abortions are done before 12-14 weeks. Most of my prochoice friends believe the same, abortion through the first or second trimester. But the procedure is safest and simplest if done quite early on. Having miscarried 4 times, I can't see me personally be willing to abort past the first couple of months.

[smiles33]

My answer to Jeana's question is that I do not believe the law should outlaw abortions, period. To be completely honest, I am horrified by the thought of an elective abortion after 20 weeks, when you can feel the baby moving, s/he has a chance of surviving outside the womb. and there are no medical reasons justifying the procedure. However, being pro-choice means I have to hope/trust that only women with VERY GOOD reasons need to have late-term abortions and that doctors would also carefully consider those factors before they agree to perform such procedures.

The thing is, there's already a limit of doctors willing to perform abortions given the death threats (and successful murders) they face in some parts of the country. Thus, I'm not even clear how easy it is for most women to obtain a late-term abortion. While we're living in a country where abortion is not (yet) illegal by law, it is becoming increasingly difficult to access an abortion provider (i.e., women driving across state lines to find someone to perform an abortion).

[Fairy]

I believe the first 12 weeks for any reason, 2nd trimester only in medically necessary cases, and I personally do not understand *most* late term abortions (and I do not want to debate it). There are exceptions, but I think that the majority of the time, a 3rd trimester abortion should not be available for any reason.

[mamicka]

REALLY?

I am sure these people exist, but I cannot fathom knowing several of them. I know some people who have had abortions, and without exception it was a gut wrenching choice to have to make.

Holding up a *very small* minority of women who have had 4 or 5 or 6 abortions as an example of the "typical" person who seeks an abortion is like lumping someone who drives 5-10 miles over the speed limit in with drunk drivers. It's misleading, extremist, and it greatly weakens the impact of the pro-life movement.

I'm not holding up anything as typical. I'm sharing my experience & my opinion. I'm not misleading anyone nor am I an extremist. What you think it does to the pro-life movement is not my concern. It's the truth.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

Question for pro - choice people

What is your cut off for when a woman no longer has a choice or do you think a woman should have the legal right for any reason to abort at any time for any reason?

Just curious when its not ok for you

I do not believe in late term abortion unless there is a high risk of death for the mother. In a case like a PP mentioned (not using names, but you can figure it out) where at 20 weeks she knew the baby had no chance for survival I think that should be legal. There are a lot of gray areas, and what-if situations to where it is hard to say a definitive time.

To be clear, I personally, do not believe in abortion for convenience. But I am not such a perfect person that I can condemn those that do.Nor do I feel I have the right to tell others they can't. I really try not to judge, as I am just one person, and I too have made mistakes.

I have a question for the PL people....

How do you feel about right-to-die? I am just curious. I think my belief in that (my mom made that choice when she was 39 and paralyzed after a brain tumor and surgery) affects my belief in abortion.

If you are against abortion for religious reasons, and your religion says God gave us free will to make our own mistakes, how does that work? With making a choice like that illegal. Obviously rape, murder, etc. is illegal and I am not promoting anarchy. But rape is generally frowned upon in modern society (though not all and women are still abused and people turn a blind eye farm more than they should ), regardless of religion. I was raised Catholic, and I was taught God gave us free will.

What is the best solution for those that are raped and become pregnant say before age 13?

I think sometimes because I am Agnostic, people (not here IRL) view me as being less moral. For my liberal views people are usually surprised at what a conservative parent/wife I am.


I am not trying to be inflammatory, but I really like expanding my understanding of those with differing views. No one is going to change their opinion on abortion due to this thread. This is a subject that you believe in (either PL or PC) to the core.

[AnnieW625]

My first job out of high school was as an intern for my local congressman part of my job was to work on legislation and take calls from people who wanted information about the late term abortion bill that was going through the house at the time. It opened my eyes to lots of things and I never thought I could do that myself, and well I did (I was over by one week; there was a delay in scheduling). Weeks after I had mine the dr. in Oklahoma was killed by protestors of late term abortions and my heart went out to his family (and the patients he helped) in more ways than one. As much as I hated having to do what we chose to do my heart will always have a special place for the doctor who performed my procedure. I never would've gotten through it without her or her loving staff (they do all levels of abortion, but is one of the only clinics on the west coast to do them past 20 weeks).

[ourbabygirl]

I used to be more pro-choice (for 'other people,' not for myself), in high school, before I fully understood what it was like to be pregnant, growing a baby inside, and later to become a mother. When I got pregnant w/DD, my life changed so much and I couldn't imagine ever harming a child, especially my own, and taking its life. Luckily I've never had to face the decision to have an abortion, as I've never gotten pregnant outside of marriage, without the means, love, and intention to care for a child. Personally I don't think that I could ever have an abortion, and I also don't feel it's right for others to do so, as I do believe that life begins at conception (once that baby is growing, I don't see how it could be seen as anything other than a new life). While I don't know of anyone, personally, who has had an abortion (and I'm amazed that many of you do know many who have), I think that many abortions are done for matters of convenience, which I don't agree with. I know many, many high school and college students have unprotected, premarital sex and don't internalize the consequences. Like pp mentioned, they use an abortion as a last-minute contraception method, and because they are too ashamed to admit their pregnancy to their parents and friends, they have an abortion. I know many women (daughters of my mother's friends) who got pregnant in high school and went on to have the babies... those babies are now in middle and high school themselves. At the time I thought these girls (and their boyfriends) were so immature and irresponsible, but now I realize they were very brave and unselfish not to terminate their pregnancies, and they are each so glad that they have their children.
Similar to what a pp (kijip, I think) said, decisions are worth more when people actually have a choice to make them! I went to a conservative, Catholic university that didn't (probably still doesn't) offer meat in the dining halls on Fridays during Lent (as well as Ash Wednesday). Isn't it worth more for a Catholic (not to mention that there are many students there who AREN'T Catholic!) to have the choice of eating meat, but to consciously choose to abstain, despite the temptation? I know I'm kind of talking out of both sides of my mouth, but I do agree that even if abortion were illegal, people would still have them, just in more unsafe ways.
I really wish it weren't a debate, and think it's so unfortunate that we have to consider this and that lawmakers have to decide for us. To many of us, it's much more than a matter of 'my body, my choice.' For the most part, I agree with the Democratic party's positions, but this is one that I do not agree with.

[KBecks]

I agree with you Melaine. It is sad to me that abortion is considered an acceptable thing to do. It isn't ok for me to do it, nor do I think it is ok for someone else to be "allowed" to do it. I don't think I need to live through each possible scenario in order to have a valid opinion on it. In my opinion, abortion is taking another human life. That isn't OK with me. Medical necessity is another matter entirely and is a different discussion.

Well said, Allison.

Abortion makes me sad for the life lost. For me, it's not about blaming or hating the people who have done it, but I feel so sad for the whole thing. I can know it is wrong and still love people -- no one is perfect.... but it does not mean abortion is acceptable.

[JBaxter]

I am taught to love the sinner hate the sin. To me taking a life is a sin. My God is a forgiving God but one must ask for forgiveness. Not everyone believes that way nor am I asking them to. Everyone must come to their own peace in life. I will always believe when you stop a beating heart it is causing death to the child.
Medically necessary to me is the mothers life is in danger and there is no way to save the baby. I still would be racked with guilt and emotionally damaged if I had to go through that ... but thats me.

[Indianamom2]

A couple questions. I wish more men would chime in. Of course they're probably thinking they are smarter if they just stay out. I would still like to hear from them.

- For those who are pro life. Do you think if someone is pro choice they are pro abortion? No, I think in their minds, they are not "for" abortion, but for the option. Still, if you through your financial and political support behind the pro choice movement, then you are giving support to abortion, whether you would do it yourself or like the idea or not.

- Why is the word abortion such a bad word? Wether it is elective or spontaneous, or other tye, they are still the same. A person who has had an abortion for any reason should be shamed for one reason but pity for the other. It is a medical term. I personally think there should be a different term for a person who has lost a baby and one who chooses to abort. I had a "spontaneous abortion" when I was 5 weeks pregnant. It hurt me beyond words to hear the doctor/nurse use the word "abortion" because that word has, to most, become about voluntarily ending a pregnancy. The ending of my pregnancy was anything but voluntary. That's probably not coming out right...and no, technically there is nothing "bad" about the word abortion, just how it is perceived.

- If the health care passes w/o funding for abortions does that mean women with spontaneous abortions will not be helped? I don't think so. I think it's semantics here. I know as a firm pro-lifer, I would not want funding cut for those who have lost a baby in pregnancy and need help having the baby removed from their body. It's a different issue. I wish "spontaneous abortion" would be termed 'spontaneous pregnancy loss" or "miscarriage" instead, so as not to confuse the issue.

- If it was a mother's life or baby's life situation what would pro lifers do? Do you let them both die? If you do chose isn't that saying that one life is more important than anothers? Well, I'm a Christian. I believe life begins at conception. I am pro-life because of my faith. I personally think that if I say I believe that abortion is wrong, then it's wrong even when the choices are tough. Even if it meant that I might die trying to bring that life into the world. That tiny baby's life isn't more important than mine, but it is equally human and therefore worthy of the chance. This is just my view, and yes, it would EXTREMELY difficult to make that choice, but if I say I believe something, then I need to back it up even when it's difficult.

I'm not trying to be snarky these are just questions that bug me. Because I am, and everyone I know of, pro choice it's hard to get the other sides opinion.


To answer your questions:

1.
No, I think in their minds, they are not "for" abortion, but for the option. Still, if you throw your financial and political support behind the pro choice movement, then you are giving support to abortion, whether you would do it yourself or like the idea or not.

2.
I personally think there should be a different term for a person who has lost a baby and one who chooses to abort. I had a "spontaneous abortion" when I was 5 weeks pregnant. It hurt me beyond words to hear the doctor/nurse use the word "abortion" because that word has, to most, become about voluntarily ending a pregnancy. The ending of my pregnancy was anything but voluntary. That's probably not coming out right...and no, technically there is nothing "bad" about the word abortion, just how it is perceived.

3.
I don't think so. I think it's semantics here. I know as a firm pro-lifer, I would not want funding cut for those who have lost a baby in pregnancy and need help having the baby removed from their body. It's a different issue. I wish "spontaneous abortion" would be termed 'spontaneous pregnancy loss" or "miscarriage" instead, so as not to confuse the issue.

4.
Well, I'm a Christian. I believe life begins at conception. I am pro-life because of my faith. I personally think that if I say I believe that abortion is wrong, then it's wrong even when the choices are tough. Even if it meant that I might die trying to bring that life into the world. That tiny baby's life isn't more important than mine, but it is equally human and therefore worthy of the chance. This is just my view, and yes, it would EXTREMELY difficult to make that choice, but if I say I believe something, then I need to back it up even when it's difficult.

[kcandz]

Question for pro - choice people

What is your cut off for when a woman no longer has a choice or do you think a woman should have the legal right for any reason to abort at any time for any reason?

Just curious when its not ok for you

To me, the issue at hand is that I get to control choices for my body, or my DH with my wishes outlined in writing.

In order to protect this right, that I feel should be fundamental - men seem to be able to make choices over their health without issue yet sure have a lot of opinions about women's bodies - I believe it should be legal as long as medically safe for the mother. My absoluteness on this aspect unfortunately opens up some vulnerability that I must believe are outlying, rare situations. There will never be a neat and clean way to classify all women's experiences.

What I believe personally: I fervently wish we could educate all so people take precautions to not have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place, and trust those who have wanted pregnancies with horrible complications and heartbreaking decisions to make to be able to do those privately and within their family situation, without outside interference.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

To me, the issue at hand is that I get to control choices for my body, or my DH with my wishes outlined in writing.

In order to protect this right, that I feel should be fundamental - men seem to be able to make choices over their health without issue yet sure have a lot of opinions about women's bodies - I believe it should be legal as long as medically safe for the mother. My absoluteness on this aspect unfortunately opens up some vulnerability that I must believe are outlying, rare situations. There will never be a neat and clean way to classify all women's experiences.

What I believe personally: I fervently wish we could educate all so people take precautions to not have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place, and trust those who have wanted pregnancies with horrible complications and heartbreaking decisions to make to be able to do those privately and within their family situation, without outside interference.

Well said. :bighand:

[Reyadawnbringer]

To me, the issue at hand is that I get to control choices for my body, or my DH with my wishes outlined in writing.

In order to protect this right, that I feel should be fundamental - men seem to be able to make choices over their health without issue yet sure have a lot of opinions about women's bodies - I believe it should be legal as long as medically safe for the mother. My absoluteness on this aspect unfortunately opens up some vulnerability that I must believe are outlying, rare situations. There will never be a neat and clean way to classify all women's experiences.

What I believe personally: I fervently wish we could educate all so people take precautions to not have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place, and trust those who have wanted pregnancies with horrible complications and heartbreaking decisions to make to be able to do those privately and within their family situation, without outside interference.

:yeahthat: Couldn't have said it more perfect.

[Corie]

Because it isn't something that they were ashamed of. Because it isn't uncommon. It comes up because we discuss these topics among friends. I'm not only friends with people who agree with me.


I realize that these topics may be discussed among good friends.

And I would hope that people can be friends with people who agree/disagree
on abortion.

I just didn't think it was common to know so many people who had had
multiple abortions.

[mommylamb]

My answer to Jeana's question is that I do not believe the law should outlaw abortions, period. To be completely honest, I am horrified by the thought of an elective abortion after 20 weeks, when you can feel the baby moving, s/he has a chance of surviving outside the womb. and there are no medical reasons justifying the procedure. However, being pro-choice means I have to hope/trust that only women with VERY GOOD reasons need to have late-term abortions and that doctors would also carefully consider those factors before they agree to perform such procedures.

The thing is, there's already a limit of doctors willing to perform abortions given the death threats (and successful murders) they face in some parts of the country. Thus, I'm not even clear how easy it is for most women to obtain a late-term abortion. While we're living in a country where abortion is not (yet) illegal by law, it is becoming increasingly difficult to access an abortion provider (i.e., women driving across state lines to find someone to perform an abortion).

:yeahthat: Well said.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I realize that these topics may be discussed among good friends.

And I would hope that people can be friends with people who agree/disagree
on abortion.

I just didn't think it was common to know so many people who had had
multiple abortions.

:yeahthat:

I don't know many people at all that have had (or admit to) having abortions. I was too surprised that you knew so many. I don't think any of my friends have.

[mommylamb]

:yeahthat:

I don't know many people at all that have had (or admit to) having abortions. I was too surprised that you knew so many. I don't think any of my friends have.

I only know of one friend of mine who has had more than one abortion (she had 2), and the second one was when she got pregnant while on deppo and her doctor told her it would have terrible consequences for the fetus. I don't think the multiple abortion for birth control thing is really common, though of course this is based on my own anecdotal experiences.

[mom2binsd]

I had to make a similar decision to Mom2BinSD because our baby had Trisomy 18 (three chromosomes at 18), which at my age (31) was a 1 in 60,000 chance. The baby had less than a 5% chance of being born alive, and then less than a 3% chance of living to it's first birthday. Most babies w/ tri-18 only live for hours and maybe a week if they are not still born. It was the hardest decision I have ever had to make in my life and I hope to never have to make that decision again. We had an amazing medical staff at Kaiser Bellflower/Downey that helped up with our decision and the surgery center that performed the service (outside provider) was excellent during that time. I was 6 mos. along when the procedure was done.

Also I am a devout Catholic and would never ever considered an abortion had it not been medically necessary.

I've been reading carefully and had not planned to weigh in again, but just felt complelled.

Annie, like you we would never have made our decision had we not known that there was no chance of survival even within the week, I saw the ultrasound, there was no fluid and the tumors had taken over. We have been blessed with two lovely children and had we waited for the inevitable miscarriage it could have led to infection, shock and the loss of future pregnancy possibilities. I was relieved that this was a LEGAL option for us and that we had the complete medical support that we did. It was not a decision I deem at "for convenience".

I just think it's almost impossible to say what you'd do unless you are actually in that situation, this applies to abortion, or any other sensitive topic such as choosing to stop chemo treatments on a child as the side effects outweigh the chance of a cure (have some friends wrestling with this one!).

The reason we all see this differently is that we all individual, it's a strange world we live in as we try to make everyone live within a common framework with one size fits all laws that are virtually impossible to please everyone!

[lchang25000]

I had to make a similar decision to Mom2BinSD because our baby had Trisomy 18 (three chromosomes at 18), which at my age (31) was a 1 in 60,000 chance. The baby had less than a 5% chance of being born alive, and then less than a 3% chance of living to it's first birthday. Most babies w/ tri-18 only live for hours and maybe a week if they are not still born. It was the hardest decision I have ever had to make in my life and I hope to never have to make that decision again. We had an amazing medical staff at Kaiser Bellflower/Downey that helped up with our decision and the surgery center that performed the service (outside provider) was excellent during that time. I was 6 mos. along when the procedure was done.

Also I am a devout Catholic and would never ever considered an abortion had it not been medically necessary.

Im so sorry to hear about your loss. I can only imagine the pain you went through to make this decision. Can I ask how you found out the baby had Trisomy 18? Genetic testing? Amnio? I ask because you're generally not considered in the "high-risk" group at age 31.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I've been reading carefully and had not planned to weigh in again, but just felt complelled.

Annie, like you we would never have made our decision had we not known that there was no chance of survival even within the week, I saw the ultrasound, there was no fluid and the tumors had taken over. We have been blessed with two lovely children and had we waited for the inevitable miscarriage it could have led to infection, shock and the loss of future pregnancy possibilities. I was relieved that this was a LEGAL option for us and that we had the complete medical support that we did. It was not a decision I deem at "for convenience".

I just think it's almost impossible to say what you'd do unless you are actually in that situation, this applies to abortion, or any other sensitive topic such as choosing to stop chemo treatments on a child as the side effects outweigh the chance of a cure (have some friends wrestling with this one!).

The reason we all see this differently is that we all individual, it's a strange world we live in as we try to make everyone live within a common framework with one size fits all laws that are virtually impossible to please everyone!

:grouphug: and PT for your friends. I just fear if abortion were illegal what would happen to those mothers in situations like yours?

[gatorsmom]

I just fear if abortion were illegal what would happen to those mothers in situations like yours?

I think most prolife people would agree that medical situations like this deserve some special consideration. The mother's could have been at risk- that changes things.

Us prolife folks are not all the clinic bombers and hardliners that many people think we are.

To the moms who've experienced a heartwrenching loss- I'm so sorry. hugs.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I think most prolife people would agree that medical situations like this deserve some special consideration. The mother's could have been at risk- that changes things.

Us prolife folks are not all the clinic bombers and hardliners that many people think we are.

To the moms who've experienced a heartwrenching loss- I'm so sorry. hugs.

I don't think that at all. There are people that have commented in this thread that took the stance that abortion should never be an option. I have friends IRL that are pro-life and most believe in exceptions.

[codex57]

Maybe it's cuz I'm in CA, but most pro-lifers I know believe in exceptions.

[alexmommy]

Good posts and civil discussion. I am pro-choice and agree with the poster who said that instead of making abortions illegal, we can put our resources into preventing the need for them.

I recall family stories of long-dead relatives having home abortions before they were legal--using turpentine, coat hangers, etc. If someone is determined to have one, they should be able to do so safely.

[Indianamom2]

I think most prolife people would agree that medical situations like this deserve some special consideration. The mother's could have been at risk- that changes things.

Us prolife folks are not all the clinic bombers and hardliners that many people think we are.

To the moms who've experienced a heartwrenching loss- I'm so sorry. hugs.

:yeahthat:

I might add that most pro-lifers that I know struggle with medical exceptions because doctors are sometimes wrong. I have known (or known of) plenty of people who were told that their baby had X,Y or Z wrong and would not survive, or would live a terrible life, only to have that baby be born perfectly fine or live a very happy life. It's just a very, very tough call.

I don't have all the answers. I just know what I believe and try my best to reconcile that with each situation in my life. It's the best any of us can do.

[mctlaw]

I am prochoice but I'm not going to get into my personal reasons as similar ones have been discussed at length. I did want to say I really admire those of you who have been brave enough to post your experiences, for a myriad of reasons, despite knowing the reactions of some. Thank you for your bravery and my heart goes out to you for your experiences.:grouphug:

[Fairy]

I've been reading carefully and had not planned to weigh in again, but just felt complelled.

Annie, like you we would never have made our decision had we not known that there was no chance of survival even within the week, I saw the ultrasound, there was no fluid and the tumors had taken over. We have been blessed with two lovely children and had we waited for the inevitable miscarriage it could have led to infection, shock and the loss of future pregnancy possibilities. I was relieved that this was a LEGAL option for us and that we had the complete medical support that we did. It was not a decision I deem at "for convenience".

I just think it's almost impossible to say what you'd do unless you are actually in that situation, this applies to abortion, or any other sensitive topic such as choosing to stop chemo treatments on a child as the side effects outweigh the chance of a cure (have some friends wrestling with this one!).

The reason we all see this differently is that we all individual, it's a strange world we live in as we try to make everyone live within a common framework with one size fits all laws that are virtually impossible to please everyone!

:hug: Beth. :hug:

[Fairy]

Us prolife folks are not all the clinic bombers and hardliners that many people think we are.

No question, Lisa. :grouphug:

[dogmom]

I personally think there should be a different term for a person who has lost a baby and one who chooses to abort. I had a "spontaneous abortion" when I was 5 weeks pregnant. It hurt me beyond words to hear the doctor/nurse use the word "abortion" because that word has, to most, become about voluntarily ending a pregnancy. The ending of my pregnancy was anything but voluntary. That's probably not coming out right...and no, technically there is nothing "bad" about the word abortion, just how it is perceived.

.

It's really what we are used to for language. As a nurse the word spontaneous vs. medical or therapeutic is not a loaded word for me. I always marveled at the inate blame of the word "miscarriage" like somehow the mother dropped the baby, or was unable to carry the baby to term because something was wrong with her. I know many woman would felt they did something wrong, or there was something wrong with them, because they had a pregnancy that did not result in a live birth.