S/O abortion thread: what is your view on the death penalty?

[smiles33]

I have long been curious about the connection (or lack thereof?) between one's views on abortion and the death penalty. As I understand it, pro-lifers value human life to the extent that there is rarely (if at all) a justifiable reason for terminating a pregnancy.

While I, too, value human life, I am pro-choice because I DO think there are justifiable reasons for ending a pregnancy. However, I am also ANTI-death penalty. To be perfectly honest, I have not been anti-death penalty for as long as I have been pro-choice. In fact, it was only in college that I recognized that there are innocent people who have been railroaded/framed/caught up in the justice system and sentenced to die for crimes they did not commit. I would rather allow 100 perpetrators of heinous crimes live (albeit in prison!) than execute one innocent person.

You?

[malphy]

I am pro choice anti deathpenalty.

I think the death penalty costs too much financially because of all the appeals processes and also emotionally. The victims friends and family are subjected to too much emotional abuse from the constant appeals, stays of ex, etc.

Death is not a punishment for the criminal it is a release from a miserable life. True punishment is lwop.

By not using dp we also avoid putting an innocent person to death.

[BabyMine]

Of course I am so far the only "other"

I am pro choice and have had an elective abortion. To me pro choice doesn't mean pro abortion/death. It means having the right to make a choice.

I am torn on the death penalty. If we were 100% sure the perp actually commited the crime then I would be more open to it. Becasue we are human, and there is corruption there are too many ways to get it wrong. All together I think the prison system needs to change but that is another post.

[mommylamb]

I'm also pro-choice and opposed to the death penalty. My reasons for being opposed to the death penalty though are due to the fact that our justice system is never going to be perfect. Jurors are not infallible. Racism can play a roll in the decisions some people (including some jurors) make. Mistakes are made sometimes too. DH on the other hand opposes the death penalty because he doesn't believe the state should have the power to take a life. I disagree with him on that because if you follow that logic, I don't think you could have any type of defense program.

ETA: BabyMine, I totally agree with you that being pro-choice doesn't mean being pro-abortion or pro-death.

I also understand why some people support the death penalty, and I don't think they're terrible people for doing so. It's just not me.

[fortato]

There was a horrific murder here in NH very recently, where a group of 17-19 year old men broke into a home with the intent to murder whomever was in the house at the time. They murdered a mom and severely injured her 11 year old daughter.

I hope they fry. I don't want my tax dollars paying for these animals to live the rest of their days in some prison... while this little girl has to live with out her mother, and the possibility that one or all of those men could be out on parole some day....

[hillview]

This is an interesting map of capital punnishment worldwide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation
/hillary

[SnuggleBuggles]

I am very strongly opposed to the death penalty. I even added a new signature line to reflect that. I am pro-choice- it is not my right to take away this decision for others but barring a medical situation I wouldn't choose it for myself. I just can not be comfortable with the death penalty for many reasons. I always wonder if I could hold to those convictions if I were directly involved but I really think I would.

Beth

[vludmilla]

I am pro choice and anti death penalty. I just cannot deal with the idea that innocent men are put to death. One way that I had considered it in the past was...would I be willing to let me son, husband, or father be the innocent man that got sentenced to die just so that I could put to death some other guilty men? My answer to that hypothetical question was a resounding no. I am comfortable with life without parole and I would want no parole options for those who commit heinous crimes.

[kijip]

The death penalty system is too expensive, broken and fraught with institutionalized racism and classism.

I can not in good conscious support that, even if a more base part of myself understands the sentiment of string them up, as a crime victim and as a mother. Forgiveness is the only path to healing anyways. Life in prison is cheaper than the death penalty.

Also I was raised by people that took the new testament and non-violence very, very seriously. I have an inherent uneasiness with anyone that cares about abortion but not the death penalty, rationalizing torture and supporting war.

[gatorsmom]

My position is Pro-ALL-life. I think all life should be treated with dignity and be viewed as precious. I believe that life begins at conception and that all humans deserve to be treated as equals with dignity and respect. I think we as a society should do our best to protect and help the most vulnerable members of our society especially the poor, the ones without a voice, the forgotten and the imperfect.

I think the death penalty is cruelty at it's finest even for the most undeniably guilty of sociopaths. Life without the possibilty of parole should be hard enough for them.

that's my viewpoint in a nutshell.

[bubbaray]

I am very pro death penalty. I have felt this way most of my life, though will admit that I was somewhat conflicted about it in law school. Some real-life experience with the true psychopaths of this world (think Silence of the Lambs) quickly changed that for me. There are people in this world who are truly evil.

I wish we had the dealth penalty here.

[gatorsmom]

I am very pro death penalty. I have felt this way most of my life, though will admit that I was somewhat conflicted about it in law school. Some real-life experience with the true psychopaths of this world (think Silence of the Lambs) quickly changed that for me. There are people in this world who are truly evil.

I wish we had the dealth penalty here.


Melissa, do you practice the type of law that deals wwith these types of people like a defense attorney or prosecutor? Just curious how you came into contact with people like that (shudder).

[jenmcadams]

My position is Pro-ALL-life. I think all life should be treated with dignity and be viewed as precious. I believe that life begins at conception and that all humans deserve to be treated as equals with dignity and respect. I think we as a society should do our best to protect and help the most vulnerable members of our society especially the poor, the ones without a voice, the forgotten and the imperfect.

I think the death penalty is cruelty at it's finest even for the most undeniably guilty of sociopaths. Life without the possibilty of parole should be hard enough for them.

that's my viewpoint in a nutshell.

That's completely my view as well...I've always thought there was a logical fallacy between being Pro-Life (and I don't love that term b/c I know many people who disagree with me on the abortion issue, but I don't think they are anti-life) and supporting the death penalty. While I understand feeling like some people have given up their right to live in society by doing things so evil, I also know that we make mistakes and if it were up to me, I'd rather pay for life without parole for those people than risk making a mistake by executing an innocent person.

[bubbaray]

No, I am not (nor have I ever been) a criminal law practitioner. However, I did deal with these types of people in other venues. I don't want to go into more detail than that.

I periodically hear about some of these wack jobs getting released. One in particular who made death threats against me. I feel physically ill STILL even many years later.

[wolverine2]

My position is Pro-ALL-life. I think all life should be treated with dignity and be viewed as precious. I believe that life begins at conception and that all humans deserve to be treated as equals with dignity and respect. I think we as a society should do our best to protect and help the most vulnerable members of our society especially the poor, the ones without a voice, the forgotten and the imperfect.

I think the death penalty is cruelty at it's finest even for the most undeniably guilty of sociopaths. Life without the possibilty of parole should be hard enough for them.

that's my viewpoint in a nutshell.

mine too...

[bubbaray]

I think the death penalty is cruelty at it's finest even for the most undeniably guilty of sociopaths. Life without the possibilty of parole should be hard enough for them.




The problem is that for the psycho/sociopaths I've encountered, life without parole is NOT hard enough for them.

Life without parole would be hard enough for a normal person (which is why it works as a general deterrant for the majority of people), but these are not normal people that I'm talking about.

[gatorsmom]

Life without parole would be hard enough for a normal person (which is why it works as a general deterrant for the majority of people), but these are not normal people that I'm talking about.

Honestly, I never thought of prison time as being an effective deterrent for anyone really. Nobody ever thinks they are going to get caught. I see prison as a way to get them away from the rest of society, hopefully develop some remorse while they are in there, and learn that prison is not a place they want to go back to. A sociopath -who'll never develop a sense of remorse for his actions -should stay in there forever.

ETA: Melissa,I'm sorry you had to encoutner those scary people. I don't blame you for being haunted by them.

[smiles33]

To me pro choice doesn't mean pro abortion/death. It means having the right to make a choice.


OMG, I totally did not mean to imply that pro-choice folks are pro-death penalty! I just re-read my post (from 2 am or so) and realized how my sentence structure could have implied that. I was trying to say that I have always wondered if there IS a link between pro-lifers who value all life (even despicable criminals who prey on innocent people) and not supporting the death penalty, but I do not think there is a natural link between pro-choicers and the death penalty.

I then tried to share my own story of how I once supported the death penalty because I felt horrible criminals should face the ultimate crime of execution for their wrongs. However, as a college student, I started to learn more about racial profiling, overly aggressive prosecution, poor defense, and a myriad of other factors that combine (or even singly) put innocent people on death row.

Anyhow, the poll results are interesting. I would be curious to hear from those who are pro-life and pro-death penalty whether your reasons for that apparent inconsistency (at least in my eyes if you are pro-life because you value human life) are because abortion involves "innocent" fetuses as opposed to the death penalty being imposed on someone who has allegedly committed a wrongdoing.

[AnnieW625]

I voted for other because technically since I have had an abortion I am not sure that I can really say I am pro life anymore (at least most likely in the views of some; and pro life protestors who protest surgery centers or abortion clinics bother me), but I do know that I would never have an abortion again just for convenience sake (we are 99% sure we are done after this child anyways).

Now as far as the death penalty goes I sort of support it and I sort of don't. Right now I see the death penalty as a cost saving measure in our state and that there could be soo much money saved for medical costs and life in prison if all of the crazies were executed on schedule. On the flip side though what makes it okay for the govt. to approve killing people?

[sariana]

I am pro-choice and anit-death penalty. Abortion is an individual choice, while the death penalty is something a society decides. I don't like the idea of a society that uses death as a punishment.

I don't like abortion, either, but I don't think it is society's responsibility to make that choice.

From a moral standpoint, assuming either is a sin, I don't think it is society's job to prevent me from sinning. But it is society's job to protect its members as a whole.

[smiles33]

I am pro-choice and anit-death penalty. Abortion is an individual choice, while the death penalty is something a society decides. I don't like the idea of a society that uses death as a punishment.

I don't like abortion, either, but I don't think it is society's responsibility to make that choice.

From a moral standpoint, assuming either is a sin, I don't think it is society's job to prevent me from sinning. But it is society's job to protect its members as a whole.

Very well stated! I agree completely and like how you explained this so clearly.

[gatorsmom]

But it is society's job to protect its members as a whole.

Why don't the unborn count as human beings that deserve protection? Are their lives any less worthy? Are they not equal in society that they shouldn't be protected too?

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I am pro-choice, and in theory pro-death penalty. But, I read a book that was fiction years a go, but involved someone wrongfully put to death. Made me think. There is no way to ever be 100% sure of someone guilt, but if there was I would be pro-death penalty. I am also pro right-to-die, and feel VERY strongly on this.

[JBaxter]

Well if the unborn could vote they would all want a chance to live :heartbeat:

[Melaine]

I am strongly pro-life....and have no problem with the death penalty. I don't feel terribly strongly about it though. Looking at it objectively, I agree with certain crimes (pre-meditated murder) being punishable by death. I realize that there are weaknesses in the system that can take some of the confidence away from that position. I'm ok with life sentences, but unhappy that so many criminals are living off of our taxes. I think that, enforced properly, the death penalty could prevent some violent crimes.
Being pro-life is about protecting an innocent life, and speaking for those people who cannot speak for themselves. I do believe that every life is valuable, but certain people have caused such horrendous pain on the world that they have voluntarily given up the right to life; at least, certainly given up the right to freedom. So yeah, essentially pro-life and pro-death penalty.

[sariana]

Why don't the unborn count as human beings that deserve protection? Are their lives any less worthy? Are they not equal in society that they shouldn't be protected too?

Not exactly. I knew this response would come when I posted before. I get this argument. I really do. But I have to say that no, a fetus that cannot survive without the mother is not equal in society. I don't like that answer, but it's what it comes down to for me.

DH's parents have friends whose daughter lost her first baby in the ninth month. His umbilical cord got kinked, and his life supply was cut off. When I think about this, I think, "Why couldn't her son have been born prematurely, as mine was? Then he would still be alive." By the time my son was at the gestational age at which she lost hers, my son had been living in the world outside my womb for weeks. Believe me, I am the last person who wants to be drawing lines, saying, "Now it's not a person, now it is."

I wish there were never a need for anyone to have an abortion. But that simply isn't a realistic situation. As I said in the other thread, sometimes the best solution is merely the least bad. There is no good answer to this issue. So I have to form my opinions and live with them.

I consider myself a Hobbesian. I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it does not impact other people. The problem is that there is no such thing. Everything we do impacts other people. So we have to put limits on our freedoms. Everyone draws the line differently.

Many think life, and rights, begin at conception.
I think no one should be allowed to smoke anywhere.
I know of someone who thinks he should be allowed to kill someone who wrongs him.
I know of someone who, given the choice, would have chosen not be born.
Some people think they should be able to rear their children however they choose, spanking or not, vaxing or not, using car seats or not, partaking of modern medicine or not, etc.
I think people should be able to love whomever they choose, however many people they choose.

I think it's more important to focus on protecting the children who already are here than to put so much effort into forcing people to bear children they don't want.

But I totally understand that there are people who disagree with me, and that's okay. "Proud to be an American" means standing up for the rights of people I don't agree with, too.

[jenmcadams]

Being pro-life is about protecting an innocent life, and speaking for those people who cannot speak for themselves.

I was one of those Pro-Life, Anti-Death Penalty responders and I just wanted to comment on it. What worries me is the way the Death Penalty is unfairly applied (minorities and poor defendants convicted of crimes are more likely to get death than a more affluent, white defendant)...I also just worry about the finality of the punishment...what if we're wrong and the person is innocent. I feel like that person is also an innocent life.

Just a thought...

[gatorsmom]

I don't like that answer...



Just curious- why don't you like that answer? I'm very at peace with my position. Why dont' you like yours? I'm not trying to bait you, just to understand why you would choose a position you are't completely comfortable with.

[codex57]

I wish there were never a need for anyone to have an abortion. But that simply isn't a realistic situation. As I said in the other thread, sometimes the best solution is merely the least bad. There is no good answer to this issue. So I have to form my opinions and live with them.

I consider myself a Hobbesian. I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it does not impact other people. The problem is that there is no such thing. Everything we do impacts other people. So we have to put limits on our freedoms. Everyone draws the line differently.

:thumbsup: It's funny cuz I have the same general attitude as you (I'm not sure if I'm Hobbesian, only cuz I haven't thought it out that far), but my line is just drawn in a different place. However, I totally understand where you're coming from even if I happen to be pro-life and pro-death penalty.

[sariana]

Just curious- why don't you like that answer? I'm very at peace with my position. Why dont' you like yours? I'm not trying to bait you, just to understand why you would choose a position you are't completely comfortable with.

I'm at peace with my position.

I'm not at peace with the facts of biology. I wish that everyone who wanted to get pregnant could, and that everyone who didn't want to (or shouldn't, but then who decides that) couldn't. But I have no control over that.

I have started and deleted about half a dozen different paragraphs (in this post and my others); I just can't seem to articulate what I want to say.

I want to say that it is society's job to protect the collective, not the individual. But I'm afraid that may contradict my position on the death penalty.

I don't believe abortion is murder, any more than I believe killing in self-defense (or defense of a child or other loved one) is murder. Killing is always tragic, but it is not always murder, and it is not always, nor should it always be, illegal.

[JenaW]

I was just going to stay away from these posts, but for some reason (after I read the abortion one earlier this morning), I've been thinking about it all day.

First of all, in reply to this post, I am strongly pro-life, and by that I mean ALL life. I am against abortion, the death penalty, and even assisted suicide. My faith teaches me that God is the creator of all life, and He alone should be the ONLY one with the power to start and/or end a life.

One of the replies on the abortion poll post really affected me. I wish I had the time to go back and figure out who the writer was, but it is 6:30, dinner still needs to be cleaned up, my hubby is not yet home, the kids are running wild, my house is a disaster, and I have a crazy day tomorrow, and my first official day of work on Wednesday. So to preserve time, I am just going to write my thoughts here. Someone wrote a reply about how she had a horrible experience with an abortion, and then she went on to say that when a person found out about it, she refused to listen to her story and was extremely rude and judgemental. THAT horrifies me. While I can say with reasonable certainty that I can not imagine ANY situation where I could ever justify an abortion (although the 9yo who was pregnant with twins in Brazil I think by her stepfather certainly comes very very close), I also can not EVER condone mistreatment or discrimination to someone who has had an abortion. Just as my faith tells me that all life is sacred, so does it say that I should love my neighbor as I love myself. It makes me so sad and even angry to hear stories of self-prescribed Christians and other radicals killing abortion providers or harassing woman at abortion clinics in the name of Jesus. Can anyone here give an instance in the Bible or elsewhere where Jesus would condone that type of behavior? Jesus loved the sinners even more than the righteous, and wants us to do the same. In fact, I think that as God-loving, God-fearing people (those of us who are), we have a prescription to love the people we disagree with even more. (I took out "Christian" here because I think many Jewish people would subscribe to the same way of thinking).

Someone mentioned that abortion is not an evil of society (or something to that measure) but I think it actually is. Yes, it is (relatively) an individual choice in the sense that it is not something that you are sentenced to (such as is the case with the death penalty). BUT, I think it is the overall complacency and lack of morals in our society that permits the legality of abortion in the first place. We no longer place any value on human life, and we do not value society as a whole, but instead desire an emphasis on our own individual rights and entitlements. So says the argument, "It's my body, therefore it's my choice." We have developed a disordered attachment to ourselves (what can you do for me) instead of trying to do good for others. And we also refuse to accept responsibility for our own actions. Instead we look for scapegoats and ways for others to take the blame, or an easy solution to our problems, which I think abortion is often seen as. Like someone else also mentioned, it is absolutely horrendous that we live in a world where rape is as prevalent as it is. This goes back to being self-centered and wanting to fix our own desires (in this case the desire of the attacker). Yes, there always has been and probably always will be some element of evil in any society. But I think if more people were God-centered, there would be a lot less of it.

Again, I am not attacking anyone personally. I thank every single one of you who shared your stories on the abortion post. I can not even begin to imagine how difficult those situations were to live through, and I am sure in many cases, reliving them are just as hard. Instead of feeling any sort of hatred or distaste for a woman who has chosen to have an abortion, I feel extreme sadness that she as ever put in that situation. I pray that everyone who has been hurt by an abortion can get the physical, emotional, and spiritual healing they need. I long to see the day where abortion is not necessary. I doubt I will ever live to see that day, but I can hope and pray.

[sariana]

I long to see the day where abortion is not necessary.

I think we all can agree with this statement.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

JenaW- I read your post and thought it was very well written. I have a totally different opinion, but respect yours. I am curious when you say "Yes, there always has been and probably always will be some element of evil in any society. But I think if more people were God-centered, there would be a lot less of it." Do you think people like my self that are Agnostic because I am not "God-centered" are (this is very difficult to word, so forgive me) less good, or more likely to be "evil"? Not trying to cause trouble, just curious.

And FWIW, I think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus,etc. feel the same as Christians and Jews on the subject of loving those that disagree. As do I as an Agnostic. I think I am a very good and moral person, even though I am not a believer. I don't steal, cheat, etc. I live my life pretty much according to the ten commandments, minus the ones pertaining to God.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I think we all can agree with this statement.

:yeahthat: In a perfect world where rape doesn't exist, where children aren't sexualized, where parents raise their children with morals and respect for their bodies, where birth control is 100% effective, etc.

[alexmommy]

Pro-choice, anti-death penalty, except perhaps in extremely clear-cut, psychopathic cases like Ted Bundy. A family friend, a poor black man, was given the death penalty for a crime he didn't commit and was told by the prosecuting attorney that he was going to "fry his black a$$". Thankfully someone is reviewing his case and is now off of death row. So while our legal system isn't all bad, it isn't all good either and much depends on how good a lawyer someone can afford, rather than whether or not they committed the crime.

[BabyMine]

OMG, I totally did not mean to imply that pro-choice folks are pro-death penalty! I just re-read my post (from 2 am or so) and realized how my sentence structure could have implied that. I was trying to say that I have always wondered if there IS a link between pro-lifers who value all life (even despicable criminals who prey on innocent people) and not supporting the death penalty, but I do not think there is a natural link between pro-choicers and the death penalty.

I then tried to share my own story of how I once supported the death penalty because I felt horrible criminals should face the ultimate crime of execution for their wrongs. However, as a college student, I started to learn more about racial profiling, overly aggressive prosecution, poor defense, and a myriad of other factors that combine (or even singly) put innocent people on death row.

Anyhow, the poll results are interesting. I would be curious to hear from those who are pro-life and pro-death penalty whether your reasons for that apparent inconsistency (at least in my eyes if you are pro-life because you value human life) are because abortion involves "innocent" fetuses as opposed to the death penalty being imposed on someone who has allegedly committed a wrongdoing.


I'm sorry you must have misunderstood.. It wasn't aimed toward you. Just a general statement towards pro choice. Many pro life people believe that if you are pro choice then you must be pro abortion. That isn't true for all pro choicers. Many just want the option to choose. Please, please, please don't think I was targeting you. I'm sorry.:hug:

[smiles33]

I'm sorry you must have misunderstood.. It wasn't aimed toward you. Just a general statement towards pro choice. Many pro life people believe that if you are pro choice then you must be pro abortion. That isn't true for all pro choicers. Many just want the option to choose. Please, please, please don't think I was targeting you. I'm sorry.:hug:

Oops, I see now! I am always worried when I write on a sensitive topic because I sometimes get caught up in the moment and then not write as clearly as I should. I didn't feel targeted--I just thought it might be sloppy writing on my part. Thanks for clarifying!

[JenaW]

JenaW- I read your post and thought it was very well written. I have a totally different opinion, but respect yours. I am curious when you say "Yes, there always has been and probably always will be some element of evil in any society. But I think if more people were God-centered, there would be a lot less of it." Do you think people like my self that are Agnostic because I am not "God-centered" are (this is very difficult to word, so forgive me) less good, or more likely to be "evil"? Not trying to cause trouble, just curious.

And FWIW, I think Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus,etc. feel the same as Christians and Jews on the subject of loving those that disagree. As do I as an Agnostic. I think I am a very good and moral person, even though I am not a believer. I don't steal, cheat, etc. I live my life pretty much according to the ten commandments, minus the ones pertaining to God.

Sorry to resurrect this a few days after the fact, but I did want to respond to BelleoftheBall's question.

I CERTAINLY do not think that all agnostics are evil, or even more likely to act in an evil way, just as I do not think that all God-fearing people (of any denomination) are inherently "good" or better than anyone else. I know many Agnostics and Atheists who are very "good" people and DO act nearly exactly the way God wants us to. I say nearly because by definition they either do not believe in God or do not love God they way He asks us to. I also know many people who profess to call themselves Christians, but certainly do not follow the 10 commandments. There are also religious fanatics or extremists that believe that their actions, which most people would call heinous, ARE actions that are directed by God. (Think the 9/11 terrorists or abortion clinic bombers). FWIW, I can only live my life the way I feel my God is calling me to act, and part of that involves trying to not judge ANY one else. I guess the point I'm trying to make is in general, I think that we all need some sort of moral compass to live by. Those who do belong to a particular faith group have that. Whether they chose to follow it or not is certainly their choice. (Free will and all that). But a definite choice to ignore the tenants of their faith in whatever form does have some consequences to them, be it guilt or whatever. A person who does not fear God, or even believe in a god, basically creates their own moral guidelines. In some cases, these may be very reasonable. In other cases, perhaps not so much. Am I making any sense at all? I certainly do not believe that because I profess to call myself a Catholic that I am ANY better than the next person. I DO believe that because I am Catholic, and because I pray to God and ask for help, I am able to obtain special graces (that are available to anyone and everyone simply for the asking) that help make me chose better decisions. I certainly do not always make good decisions. But the power of prayer, spiritual direction, and divine grace are not to be diminished. Evil exists everywhere. No one can escape it. But I FEEL (whether I am right or wrong) that if more of us lived the way God calls us to live, we would have LESS evil influence over our lives.

[gatorsmom]

I guess the point I'm trying to make is in general, I think that we all need some sort of moral compass to live by. Those who do belong to a particular faith group have that. Whether they chose to follow it or not is certainly their choice. (Free will and all that). But a definite choice to ignore the tenants of their faith in whatever form does have some consequences to them, be it guilt or whatever. A person who does not fear God, or even believe in a god, basically creates their own moral guidelines. In some cases, these may be very reasonable. In other cases, perhaps not so much. Am I making any sense at all?

I think this was very well said and I believe the same thing.