Interesting interview on NPR this morning re NCLB

[egoldber]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124209100

I heard this driving in to work today.


In 2005, former Assistant Secretary of Education Diane Ravitch wrote, "We should thank President George W. Bush and Congress for passing the No Child Left Behind Act ... All this attention and focus is paying off for younger students, who are reading and solving mathematics problems better than their parents' generation."

Four years later, Ravitch has changed her mind.

The interview was also a promo for her new book, The Death and Life of the Great American School System. But what she said about schools and why NCLB is not working really rang true with me.

Given all the discussion we have about schools here these days, I thought folks might find it interesting.

[Laurel]

Thanks for posting!

[pb&j]

NCLB is a colossal failure. I fail to understand how peope who call themselves Republicans, who are supposedly for smaller government, could sanction the building of the enormous bureaucracy required by NCLB. [ETA: I realize that NCLB was passed w/bipartisan support, but this was an "achievement" for the GWB administration.]

Around here, we have great schools, but they are facing HUGE budget shortfalls. It burns me how much money and instructional time is being WASTED on the testing and bean counting required by NCLB. It's a real shame, and I hope that Ravitch's book will help others realize how detrimental NCLB has been to public education in our country.

[ladysoapmaker]

I think NCLB was one of the many reasons my mother retired early from teaching. I just wish she was closer to me so I could have her homeschool DS#2. He needs more attention then he's receiving at school to excel to his full potential. He's one of those kids who (when he's on his meds) does what is asked of him and he's "bright" so he generally gets the concepts the first or second time. So he's an easy kid to teach. I just hope they don't make things worse when they tweak NCLB.

Jen

[vonfirmath]

Most conservatives I know consider NCLB one of the big failures of President Bush, and were NOT happy with it even at the time he proposed it. It is putting the federal government into something they have no right being in -- education is a local and state issue NOT a federal issue. (and the more local the better)

[Ceepa]

Most conservatives I know consider NCLB one of the big failures of President Bush, and were NOT happy with it even at the time he proposed it. It is putting the federal government into something they have no right being in -- education is a local and state issue NOT a federal issue. (and the more local the better)

Seriously. Conservatives didn't champion GWB the way it's often portrayed here and elsewhere.

[egoldber]

Eeks! I truly did not think this would be partisan issue. I was hoping that it might spark discussion on schools and testing, especially for those of us that use and rely on public schools.

One thing I thought was very interesting from the interview is how the idea of "school choice" has just not worked. Even when people were given a choice, most do not take it.


But what was especially striking was that many parents and students did not want to leave their neighborhood school, even if the federal government offered them free transportation and the promise of a better school. The parents of English-language learners tended to prefer their neighborhood school, which was familiar to them, even if the federal government said it was failing. A school superintendent told Betts that choice was not popular in his county, because "most people want their local school to be successful, and because they don't find it convenient to get their children across town." Some excellent schools failed to meet AYP because only one subgroup — usually children with disabilities — did not make adequate progress. In such schools, the children in every other subgroup did make progress, were very happy with the school, did not consider it a failing school, and saw no reason to leave.

This part really spoke to me. Even though my neighborhood school has flaws it is my NEIGHBORHOOD school. I want it to work and there are so many benefits to being in the neighbrohood school: walkability, easy social opportunities, etc. And it also touches on what I have always felt about schools, which is that test scores do not tell the whole story. If a school serves a large population of students with needs, low scores can be a reflection of that and NOT of the quality of the school or the teaching. But when schools are being judged based on their ability to raise scores year after year among a heterogenous and ever changing mix of kids....well that just makes no sense.

[maestramommy]

Sorry to hijack, but since we are talking about NCLB, has anyone read the article in the Altantic called "What Makes a Great Teacher?" It's about Teach for America, a selective and rigorous training for just-starting-out teachers. Apparently the Obama administration has poured quite a bit of money into the concept of searching out and rewarding excellent teachers. But it requires a lot of disclosure from states and is quite vociferously opposed by teachers unions. I was surprised to hear that CA is going to implement this.

[pb&j]

Another book that I found interesting is called Many Children Left Behind.
http://www.amazon.com/Many-Children-Left-Behind-Damaging/dp/0807004596/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267546016&sr=8-1

[mom2binsd]

When I worked in the public schools as an SLP we always had such an issue with so many of our special ed kiddo's who had moderate to significant learning difficulties/special needsex Downs...the essence of NCLB is that EVERY child will be at grade level/sorry that's not going to happen, it is just a fact of life that not everyone is intellectually capable of reading at grade level.

I had so many parents of the special ed students who said they wished for their child to reach their full potential but that realistically their child would not be able to read at grade level and that was ok, they wanted their child to achieve life skills, social skills and academic skills that were appropriate...unfortunately it was very difficult to get students exempt from testing the testing was pretty cruel (and we did our best to make it painless! For one little boy, we let him fill in the bubbles as he wished, he was required to take the 6th grade test but was reading 4 grade levels below, his mom who is also a teacher said she told him it was ok if he couldn't read the words just to fill in the bubbles. The test gave us no great information other than this boy who is very artistic, did a cool pattern with the bubbles. His parents had written to the Dept of Ed and school board with exactly their thoughts on the testing.

The schools were punished if they didn't have 100% participation-I would love to have had one of the authors of NCLB come in and administer the tests to my severely learning disabled students who were age 11, but reading at a 2nd grade level...they kept saying...but I can't read these words, am I stupid???...it was so sad!!!

We had some parents opt out of the testing, and our school, a very well performing school suffered for it the following years.

[Globetrotter]

Mandated NCLB testing has caused more problems than it solved, IMO.

We have teachers who teach to the test and parents who look for schools with perfect API scores. seriously, there was a Cupertino (?) school a few years ago that had a PERFECT API score - how is that even statistically possible without some fudging? Just because you live in a neighborhood, doesn't mean you are automatically brilliant! In our school, a few years ago parents complained about a 2 point dip in scores. Hello? When you're already around 980, there's not much room for improvement! I've heard parents choose school x over school y because there is a 20 point difference, maybe 960 vs. 980, because of course 980 is better, without regard to the academic pressures that MAKE those scores or the percentage of kids who go to after-school math/Kumon/academic programs. On the high achieving end, i think it just results in a rat race, and the kids suffer for it. they spend too much time drilling and doing test prep, rather than engaging the kids in meaningful learning.

We are going to move the kids to a different school to get away from this rat race culture!

[niccig]

This part really spoke to me. Even though my neighborhood school has flaws it is my NEIGHBORHOOD school. I want it to work and there are so many benefits to being in the neighbrohood school: walkability, easy social opportunities, etc.

I don't have the same pull to the neighbourhood school. I do think it comes from my own education outside the USA where you don't have to go to the local school. You can go to any school. I went to public schools that my parents thought were better for us. We did get the bus there, and part of that was funded and the rest my family made up. For highschool, my sister would drive us the 30 minutes to get to school. There was another high school that was closer, but my mother was a teacher and would never ever send us to that school. There was no need to get permission or apply for a transfer.

Our playgroup was talking about schools and one parent said she would never drive her child to a further away school. I don't understand this as for me, if the local school is not giving my child what I want for their education, then I will vote with my feet. The sense of community/convenience are not enough to keep DC going there. But again, I'm used to an education system where you do have choice over the school your DC goes to and people exercise that choice.

[jse107]

As a school counselor, I see these issues everyday. NCLB had some good theory, but in practicality it has been detrimental to students and schools.

[Meatball Mommie]

NCLB and the whole "teaching for the test" thing were huge factors in our decision to send our children to a private Montessori school. Our public school is not bad, but not great either, and overcrowded, underfunded and all the rest. We just wanted better. Not to say that their current school is perfect (certainly not), but there is NO testing. I think the 6th graders might take an MCAS practice run so they know what a standardized test is (the school only goes through 6th grade currently), but other than that - nothing!

Also, FWIW DH and I are conservatives who don't like GWB, his administration, nor the NCLB program.

[egoldber]

Our playgroup was talking about schools and one parent said she would never drive her child to a further away school. I don't understand this as for me, if the local school is not giving my child what I want for their education, then I will vote with my feet.

I think it's a hard tradeoff. Being in the neighborhood school, I see the real advantages. Walking outside to our community playground and running into her classmates. Walking to school for PTA and Girl Scout meetings. Knowing that my next door neighbor is in the same school and can help me out with pick-up/drop-offs if I'm ever in a bind.

I go through a love/hate thing with our school though. Sometimes I think it is totally failing her and sometimes I think she's doing really well. I think the perfect academic "fit" for her is homeschooling. But there are definitely aspects of her education that I simply would not be able to duplicate at home. But given that is not going to happen, I'm not sure that the private schools available to us here meet our needs either (even if we could afford them).

But I also understand that even in these tight times, our district is still very well funded compared to many. We still have lots of extras and specials and many schools don't have those anymore. And I do think that our district does a lot less specific test prep than many others, even compared to ones close by. I have been pleasantly surprised by the lack of test prep this year, since third grade is the first year they start testing in VA.

[kijip]

This part really spoke to me. Even though my neighborhood school has flaws it is my NEIGHBORHOOD school. I want it to work and there are so many benefits to being in the neighbrohood school: walkability, easy social opportunities, etc.

In most cities, there is a lot of class separation and often racial separation in neighborhoods. In my city this bears out in the schools in the poorest areas having the least due to parent fundraising paying for so much of the extras. So while the neighborhood school concept is great, it can reinforce class and racial divisions as well as trap poor kids in poor schools. I live between neighborhoods in terms of "nice" area and not as nice area. The neighborhood school we fall into by a block is regarded by parents, teachers and every district principal I have ever spoken to as being very low quality. Until we address parity in quality of schools, I and many others can't just make our most local school work. It's moot for T now that he is in advanced learning and the program is not at our local school. Still due to a new district policy that requires people to pretty much always use the neighborhood schools, if something does not change by the time F is in school I can't send him to our neighborhood school and will be forced to homeschool or go private if he does not place into the program his brother did (which I don't count on being the case, I have no idea).

[sariana]

In defense of NCLB, there is one area in which I think it was a success.

My high school prided itself on its 94% college-bound rate. But what it was hiding was terrible. The students who needed special services were virtually ignored. I know this because my brother was one of them.

NCLB forces schools to ensure that ALL their students are achieving. Yes, the expectations are unrealistic, and something needs to be modified. But at least a school/district can't hide behind its strong students while ignoring those who need more.