Do you feel there is Gender Bias in your Marriage?

[sste]

I know, I know you have all heard me p*ss and moan at length about DH's workaholic tendencies. But, now I would like to explore a socio-cultural dimension!

I think our family has succumbed to gender bias. DH is earlier in his career and good at what he does. I am also good at what I do, probably beyond that. This year, in a somewhat dead academic market, I had five different schools call me to interview as a tenured lateral hire. I had two publications that rec'd significant attention in the past year. Increasingly, I am developing a national profile in my field.

I tend to think that if the genders were reversed and DH was me we would be focusing on DH's career. Or to put it differently, if I was a man and DH was a woman I doubt *I* as the DH would be running around like a beheaded chicken between work, daycare, and home and continually short-changing my professional work to accomodate my spouse's crazy hours.

Anyway, posters do you feel there is gender bias in your marriage? Or, do you not care and are you comfortable with a more traditional gender role?

[lizzywednesday]

Most of the time, we are pretty equitable ... although his expectations sometimes drive me up the wall because there are times I feel that he expects me to be a maid and cook in addition to working full-time at a very boring and high-stress job and having a terrible commute to boot.

The WOH aspect doesn't always apply to folks, but it really does take a chunk out of my energy level and attitude at the end of the day.

I hope it's not exacerbated by Baby's arrival!

[arivecchi]

Yes. There is a gender bias in my marriage. We have very similar educations and started our careers at the same time and at similar levels. However, he cares a lot more about his professional identity than I do. I left my high-pressure long-hours job to get a position with better hours but less pay. DH stayed at the high-pressure/long-hours job and now makes twice as much as I do. As a result, I have to leave work on time every day to care for the boys every evening (DH stays at work) and I take care of them whenever DH is travelling. To be honest, I don't mind much because to me my job is a job. It is not the end-all be-all in my life. I think this would have been a real problem if I had more career ambitions or if I had stayed at my old job which required much longer hours. Having said that, when DH is at home, he helps a lot with the boys and is perfectly capable of staying with them by himself and feeding them, putting them to bed etc. He is not so great at helping around the house. That falls on my shoulders as well.

[TwinFoxes]

Well kind of, but they're all working in my favor, so I'm OK with it for now! I used to make slightly more than DH. He got a promotion and made a fair bit more than me, and I had already had the babies, so I get to stay at home. But if I went back to work we'd be fine, and he in theory could stay home with the girls. That's not going to happen! Although I'm sure DH would be a better homemaker, I honestly think I'm a better caregiver.

In your situation, I totally think there's a gender bias going on, and frankly, it sounds pretty crappy. I don't know what field you are in, but I have friends who are in academics, and I know how hard it is to get a tenured position in the middle of your career. I do think if the roles were reversed, it would be your career that would be the focus.

[pinkmomagain]

I feel there are gender roles in our family and I'm OK with that. I've never minded traditional gender roles. That said, DH does more at home than his father or my father ever did....but not near the level of many modern dads I hear about.

[egoldber]

Looking at it objectively from the outside, yes there is, but from the inside it doesn't feel like it, IYKWIM.

When we first started out, I had the higher degree and made more money. And in the beginning we were both pretty aggressive in advancing our careers. When I stopped working, we were both making approximately equal money and I was definitely at a higher level than he was with higher "career trajectory" potential. But then we had a child, DH was laid off and we moved cross country for a new job and my priorities changed.

Once I got out of the career path I was on, I decided it really was not good for me from a health or life perspective. I was terrible at balancing work and family and I was unable to say no to opportunities.

I am now making about half of what DH makes and it's a better life fit for me. He definitely does his fair share of the child care these days (me going back to work did help with that) and also he does a lot more around the house in general, but mainly because he works primarily from home. It does irritate me that when I get home from work he thinks he is "off" kid duty, and I do have to remind him not to do that. And also, he travels a fair amount, which means that 100% of the child and house responsibilitities fall to me on those days and that is really very hard now that I WOH full-time.

[mikeys_mom]

Yes, and no.

Dh and I are both professionals and both have the ability to advance pretty high up in our fields but neither of us have at this point because we have a young family.

If DH had my job, he would likely not be working 4 days a week and limiting his hours so that he could be home for morning routine, suppertime, etc... He would probably be a partner. Heck, I'd be a partner now if I didn't take mat leave 3 times and want to keep my hours reasonable.

That being said, while DH works longer hours than me and makes more than me, he could be working at a job in the same field with longer hours and higher pay but he chooses not to because of the family.

At home, we both take on childcare and household responsabilities. Some are traditional gender roles, some aren't.

[Clarity]

There is not a gender bias in my marriage. In fact, my dh (as a tenured assoc. prof) is often the person who is running to drop off/pick up and stay home with a sick child. The reason is that his position offers the flexibilty to be available in that way. He teaches a 3/3 load and depending on the semester, he typically teaches only 2 or 3 days a week. He has office hours, of course, but in a pinch they can be cancelled or rescheduled. His work is very often done frequently at home, at night after the kids are in bed.
My job OTH, is an 8a-5p with little flexibility. I have daily appts and missing work would mean significant inconvienence for all involved so unless I know I have the appropriate coverage or no appointments, I rarely stay home and only occassionally do the daycare routine. We're very lucky dh can be so flexible.

[g-mama]

Yeah, I think so. But it works for us. My friend, whose marriage roles are pretty identical to mine and dh's, went into counseling with her husband last year for some issues they were having. The therapist really questioned how they'd fallen into such traditional 1950's roles and seemed to suggest it was unhealthy. I was taken aback and it caused me to really examine our relationship.

Dh always made much more $$ than me (attorney vs. executive assistant), but when I did work, things were pretty 50/50 around the house. Once our first was born and I quit to SAH, things really changed. I do all the grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, laundry. etc. because I am here to do it. He gets home around 7pm and then helps get the kids ready for bed after dinner. It wouldn't make any sense for me to hang out and then ask him 'what's for dinner?' when he walks in the door. Nor would it make sense for me to expect him to fold the laundry when I have 9 hours a week child-free now that my youngest is in preschool and my older two are in K and 3rd.

It works for us. He never demeans my role, he never makes me feel like I'm spending "his" money or questions my spending or how I use my free time. But yes, we have very old-fashioned family roles.

[mecawa]

We have definite gender bias in our relationship. I left work to stay home with the kids. I have more and higher degrees than DH, but he is in a field that he makes more than I ever will, going along with this he has crazy hours and travels all the time (he has been in the state one day in the last two weeks). So I do all the child care, cooking, shopping,etc. For us it works, because if I wasn't home and didn't leave my career, things would have been really hectic for us right now (I am a wicked perfectionist to a fault, and would have ran myself into the ground working and taking care of the kids, especially with DH's hours). So for us it works, not to say I don't occassionaly have a day that I wish I was Miami wining and dining people, and he was here trapped in the snow with two little kids, LOL:)

[MamaSnoo]

I think we strive against it, but it persists still. Both DH and I have similar careers (similar fields, same employer, but we do NOT work together). We try to split things like childcare pickups/dropoffs (60/40 me/him), household chores. He does not cook, but does almost all the dishes. I do laundry sorting/washing, he does most folding. We both shop as needed.

That said, at the end of the day, when it comes to DDs needs, it is my career that takes a backseat. Some of this is because he has been working longer and is thus, more advanced than I am. Because of that basic inequity, I think both of us tend to see him as going further and we really try to protect his career. DH has had about 4 trips for work in past 12 mos; I have taken 1 (these are important on multiple levels in our fields for advancement). I end up missing early am or evening meetings in my department to care for DD. He almost never misses a meeting, and I am on my own a lot, except those days that he is doing drop off/pickup. In fact, he will not be home tonight......

I am not angry, though because I know he tries. For example, I am back in grad school (again..uggh) because it will advance my career, and it has really affected our free time/home life. He has been really supportive through this.

It is unfortunate that it falls on gender lines too often, but I think in many long term relationships that one partner ends up on a more career track and the other is keeping the home stuff going. It is hard to keep it 50/50. Even if home stuff is split evenly, there can be other choices (like geographical moves) which benefit one and not another. Those choices have to be made.

[niccig]

It works for us. He never demeans my role, he never makes me feel like I'm spending "his" money or questions my spending or how I use my free time. But yes, we have very old-fashioned family roles.

From the outside we do, DH works and I SAHM. But from the inside, we don't. For us, it's about attitude. DH does his share at home. It's not 50-50, as he's not here 50% of the time. I do do more, but I don't resent it. For us, it was the most realistic situation for our family. DH earns a lot more than I did, and I didn't love my job enough or earn enough to warrant the 1+ hour commute and full-time infant child care. He never treats me in a sexist attitude, or expects me to do things because I'm the woman.

My DH has already given up some of his career goals, he didn't take a position as he would be home every night after 10pm and need to work weekends. It was more money and possibly a longer career arc, but he wouldn't see us. He decided to not take it. I think both of us have changed the outlook of our careers. There are certain things we thought we wanted, but no longer do as our goals changed once we had DS.

DH's work is unpredictable with hours, so when I return to work, I will need something that lets me do school pick-up. The school has an after care, but DH can't get there, as he finishes around 8pm-12am. So either I have to get there or we'll need to hire a sitter to do pick up. DH can do drop off. I do plan to go back to work, I never intended to SAHM forever, as in DH's field there aren't many people in their late 50's. The plan has always been for me to be back working and established, so that I'll support the family,carry benefits etc. How we'll deal with sick days, and days off school - I have no idea. With his current employee DH can take a day off when he doesn't have a deadline. He has stayed home when I have been too sick to look after DS.

As for the OP, you resent having to do all the child care and your career taking a back seat to your DH's. In your situation, I would not be happy if my DH didn't consider my career or my needs. I do think it needs to be a partnership and give and take. Sometimes one has to give more, and that's OK as long as you do get to take more later on.

[ThreeofUs]

Yep, there is, but we fight against it. There's also natural splitting of labor given what each of us has taken on. That said, DH is home for supper and bath nearly every day - he's bent over his computer or papers late into the night to get his work done. He also gets a lot done in the house (that I don't get done during the day).

The only reason I am at home with the kids and not him, though, is because he was making more than me. And I was bf'ing. ;)

ETA: Btw, OP, I know a lot of male non-m.d.s around here married to docs with crazy hours. And it is the guys who do all the running. Just a data point.

[creativelightbulb]

yes there is ... and NO I'm not "ok" with it...

I've only been married two years so I'm not really sure what to do about my feelings yet...

ours isn't really career oriented...ours is social...

he can go out after work and hang with the guys on the weekends...

I don't mind him coming home late as long as he checks in (which he has really been great about doing)....

but don't LET me get the notion to go out and do exactly what he does....there is a distinct attitude from him for days...

totally not fair...esp. with baby on the way

[mommylamb]

I'm probably the oddity here, in that DH and I have opposite gender roles to the norm to a large degree. I make a lot more money than he does, and I think that contributes to it. We both have the same level of schooling (we went to grad school together), but I am more driven professionally than he is. It's just our personalities.

He also does much more of the domestic chores than I do. He does all of the cleaning, at least 80-90 percent of the cooking and some of the laundry (I probably do more than half of that).

I do more of the general child care, things like bedtime routine, feeding (back in the days when DS ate something different form us at dinner), picking up from daycare (DH and I both drop off together, and then I drive DH to work, he metros home). I do bath time, etc.

But, DH never has a problem taking DS when I'm not around for one reason or another. I'm more social than DH is, so sometimes I go out after work with colleagues, or I have work functions, and then DH does the kid stuff. I also travel for my job on occasion, so DH does single dad duty when I'm gone. He's great with DS, and DS pretty much sees us as interchangeable. He never cries that he wants mommy if daddy is there to comfort him, and vice versa.

Another thing I do that is probably outside the gender norm is that I drive nearly every time we go anywhere. Always if we're going on a long trip or going some place we haven't been before. DH didn't learn to drive until he was 32 and moved to the U.S. and I've been driving since I was 15, so I'm much more comfortable with it.

[sste]

Posters who don't yet have kids and already are uncomfortable with gender bias . . . work on it now! In my experience, this type of thing changes radically in the direction of more traditional roles once the kiddo comes even if you started out pretty egalitarian.

As for me, I do agree with the posters that noted that part of the problem is that DH's career, in medicine, is not flexible. Mamas don't let your babies grow up to marry doctors! I would seriously not recommend this life to anyone who did not want to be sahp. What frustrates me is that DH was not a particularly sexist person to begin with and he does do all early morning childcare and actually night awakenings too and most of the cooking. And to be fair he was willing to move for me with respect to the one job offer I was potentially interested in. But we have fallen into some bad habits in terms of who gives up their work time when there is a conflict, sickness, or some other crunch. And with DH's work I am not joking there is one of those at least EVERY week, often multiple times per week. And I feel like his work expects him to have a spouse in the wings to pick up the slack and DH is being slowly brainwashed in a culture of extreme self-centeredness and men can never say no at work! And that its rare for me to get the nice long stretches of time I need for writing and research.

I am thinking very seriously about hiring a live-in nanny/au pair. Or considering polygamy. DH and I need a third freaking SAH spouse in this marriage!!

[jenfromnj]

Unfortunately, I think there is. Before DS, I would have said very much no. We both had fairly intense careers that we spent a lot of time and effort into building, both worked long hours, etc. When DS was born, we initially weren't certain what our plan would be as far as our careers and DS. We both had jobs where it was not unusual to pull all-nighters, be told to hop on a plane on 2 hours notice, that kind of thing. Long story short, we ended up deciding that I would stay home with DS for a year at first, then re-evaluate.

Now the year is nearly up, and I'm very surprised at how certain gender stereotypes have reared their ugly head. DH seems to think that his job is infinitely harder than my current SAHM job, and expects quite a high degree of cooking, cleaning, etc--sometimes I feel the need to prove that I'm not simply sitting around all day (as if!). I also have found myself harping on him more than I should for working long hours, not spending enough family time, etc--far more "desperate housewife-y" than I ever thought I'd be.

In some ways, I also resent the fact that it was assumed (by us and essentially everyone else) that if one of us was going to put their career on the back burner (and unfortunately, in my field it's not easy to pick up where you left off), it was going to be me. No one would ever have expected DH to walk away from his career, even temporarily.

I am hoping that my (eventual) return to work will restore the balance somewhat. However, I am fearful that I will still end up with the lion's share of childcare and household issues, which is one of my primary hesitations in returning to work at the moment.




And I feel like his work expects him to have a spouse in the wings to pick up the slack and DH is being slowly brainwashed in a culture of extreme self-centeredness and men can never say no at work! And that its rare for me to get the nice long stretches of time I need for writing and research.



DH's colleagues are primarily married to women who SAH, whether they have kids or not, and it would not be well-received if he were to start, say, rescheduling meetings to pick up DS.

[elektra]

Pretty much yah. And I do complain about DH not helping out more, and about me pretty much always being the one to do Dr. appts or anything else regarding the running of the household. But I'm also glad that he pressure is not on me to be going above and beyond in my career. I don't have that passion that you seem to have about your career, although I do feel fulfilled and am glad to have the job that I do.
DH and I both make the same amount of $ actually, but I have more flexibility and probably less stress than he does.

[elektra]

Or considering polygamy. DH and I need a third freaking SAH spouse in this marriage!!

Ok, I have totally thought on this before! I need a wife too!

[egoldber]

I am thinking very seriously about hiring a live-in nanny/au pair

I really think you should. I think in a dual high power career couple, it's one of the few ways to make things work. Especially with #2 on the way. Congrats!!! :cheerleader1:

[AnnieW625]

I don't think it does in our marriage. I graduated from college two years before DH did, but I got a basic BA degree where as DH got a BS in Mechanical Engineering. Starting out he made $20K more per year than I did. He got laid off from that job so then I made more for about three years (he did spend the first two years working odd jobs, and collecting unemployment) as his starting income with his new job was less because it was a civil service position. Now he makes about $12K more than me and I have pretty much topped out on my salary unless I get a promotion, which at my agency are really hard to come by these days. Now DH is the type of guy who doesn't mind spending time with DD and does his fair share at home. I cook, he does dishes, we switch days off when daycare is closed, I start laundry, and fold, and he'll put it away. He doesn't mind doing all of the painting in our home that is needed now because I am pregnant. He also has taken over all dog duties (2 to 3 mile walk daily).

To the OP I would definitely have a nanny/au pair if I was in your situation.

[ThreeofUs]

I am thinking very seriously about hiring a live-in nanny/au pair. Or considering polygamy. DH and I need a third freaking SAH spouse in this marriage!!


Seriously. I found this fantastic pp doula (who I trust implicitly - she's a much better parent than I am, a thoughtful person, and knows kids) and I hire her every time I can justify it.

If I could, I'd kidnap her from any responsibilities and hire her as a ft nanny. But then I'd have to go to work and leave my kids ft, and I'm too attached to want that....

ETA: we had an awful experience with an au-pair, but have friends who have great experiences.

[Momof3Labs]

I am thinking very seriously about hiring a live-in nanny/au pair.

OMG, skip the au pair. Unless you want yet another "child" to worry about in your home. Not to mention that their schedule is limited (hours per day, hours per week). I was getting ready with kids hanging off of me, leaving at the last possible minute, rushing home and wrangling kids while making dinner, just so I didn't exceed the allowable daily hours. It was exhausting.

BTW, congratulations!!

I'm going to reply to this more tonight after reading the other responses, but YES huge inequity in our marriage IMO. His career drives everything (where we live, our family schedule, my work commitments), even though I make twice as much as him when I'm working full time, and have considerably more upwards potential given the nature of my profession. And it's not like he can just be a SAHP - he'd lose all the time he's earned towards his pension, and he's not the type who could manage the household effectively, to put it kindly.

[cono0507]

Yes, we have gender bias and it works for me. I have more education than DH (doctorate vs bachelors). I work part time 2 days/week, he works full time (40 hrs/wk). If I worked full time, I'd make more than he does by quite a lot, but I choose to instead balance a part time job with staying home with the kids. He fully acknowledges that he isn't cut out to be a stay at home dad. As a result, I of course, take on the more traditional female roles at home - cooking, cleaning, caring for the kids, etc. He does his fair share when I need to attend to work obligations, etc, and this works out pretty well for us.

[sste]

I should clarify that I don't think its gender bias if the person enjoys and in fact chooses and prefers the traditional gender role. The problem as I am learning is when they do not!

[hillview]

Ugg.

Yes somewhat. And yet DH does do a lot. We both work full time -- I work from home some of the time and travel some of the time (30%); DH works OOTH and travels (about 40%). We are hectic. Lots of hand offs and chaos. My parents live with us which generally works very well. So it is like having a live in and if we didn't have them we WOULD have a live in nanny.

That said, rather than gender bias, it seems like DH personality is more of clueless male and so there are a lot of things that don't even occur to him. Like summer camp, school registration, clothes etc. But DH DOES do a lot of stuff with the kids. So I am sometimes resentful. However in general given his job he does pitch in a lot.

I still feel like I run the house more or less and he "helps" so that is more typical gender type BUT I don't know if I'd be ok not running it :)

/hillary

[Sillygirl]

I'm going to reply to this more tonight after reading the other responses, but YES huge inequity in our marriage IMO. His career drives everything (where we live, our family schedule, my work commitments), even though I make twice as much as him when I'm working full time, and have considerably more upwards potential given the nature of my profession. And it's not like he can just be a SAHP - he'd lose all the time he's earned towards his pension, and he's not the type who could manage the household effectively, to put it kindly.

Lori, I don't mean to jump into an argument with you, it's just that this quote really struck me and it's something I've thought of many times before. If your (or any woman's) DH really is able to manage a FT career with an upward trajectory, I'll bet he could manage the household effectively if he had to. Sure, there would be a learning curve - there is for everything. But he'd manage. It's hard work, but it's not THAT hard.

For you Office fans, remember when Ryan kept acting helpless so Pam would make him a copy (I think when they were working for the Michael Scott Paper Company?) Men get away with that nonsense far too often. I'm a big believer in letting them figure out how to get stuff done. I think that would go a long way in providing some equality on the "second shift."

FTR, I purposely have never learned how to use my washing machine. Two can play that game.:tongue5:

[Momof3Labs]

And I feel like his work expects him to have a spouse in the wings to pick up the slack and DH is being slowly brainwashed in a culture of extreme self-centeredness and men can never say no at work!

Had to comment on this one. DH is a firefighter, and he is in the same situation. They call in guys for overtime, he goes - even if he has to grab someone off the street to watch the kids until I can get home (not quite literally - not quite). And, ironically, my job is like that too, since it is a male-dominated profession where, in most cases, there is a spouse sitting in the wings who can take over 100%.

[fivi2]

From the outside we do, DH works and I SAHM. But from the inside, we don't. For us, it's about attitude. DH does his share at home. It's not 50-50, as he's not here 50% of the time. I do do more, but I don't resent it. For us, it was the most realistic situation for our family. DH earns a lot more than I did, and I didn't love my job enough or earn enough to warrant the 1+ hour commute and full-time infant child care. He never treats me in a sexist attitude, or expects me to do things because I'm the woman.

My DH has already given up some of his career goals, he didn't take a position as he would be home every night after 10pm and need to work weekends. It was more money and possibly a longer career arc, but he wouldn't see us. He decided to not take it. I think both of us have changed the outlook of our careers. There are certain things we thought we wanted, but no longer do as our goals changed once we had DS.

DH's work is unpredictable with hours, so when I return to work, I will need something that lets me do school pick-up. The school has an after care, but DH can't get there, as he finishes around 8pm-12am. So either I have to get there or we'll need to hire a sitter to do pick up. DH can do drop off. I do plan to go back to work, I never intended to SAHM forever, as in DH's field there aren't many people in their late 50's. The plan has always been for me to be back working and established, so that I'll support the family,carry benefits etc. How we'll deal with sick days, and days off school - I have no idea. With his current employee DH can take a day off when he doesn't have a deadline. He has stayed home when I have been too sick to look after DS.

As for the OP, you resent having to do all the child care and your career taking a back seat to your DH's. In your situation, I would not be happy if my DH didn't consider my career or my needs. I do think it needs to be a partnership and give and take. Sometimes one has to give more, and that's OK as long as you do get to take more later on.

:yeahthat:

[Momof3Labs]

Lori, I don't mean to jump into an argument with you, it's just that this quote really struck me and it's something I've thought of many times before. If your (or any woman's) DH really is able to manage a FT career with an upward trajectory, I'll bet he could manage the household effectively if he had to. Sure, there would be a learning curve - there is for everything. But he'd manage. It's hard work, but it's not THAT hard.

Actually, my DH has little to no upward trajectory in his blue collar career. You've never met my husband. Seriously, he couldn't handle it.

[tarahsolazy]

Well, yes, but its the opposite. I work outside the home, I'm an MD in a high intensity specialty with lots of life and death crap, and am a tenure track researcher on top of that. We live where we do because of my job. My hours can be erratic, esp when I'm on clinical service, I have 4 or 5 call nights a week during those blocks, so I cannot be relied upon at all, I could have to go to the hospital at any time, immediately, if I'm not already there. When I'm doing research, I really should stay late often, and work weekends, to get papers and grants done, etc. (I don't as much as I should, and therefore my career is suffering a little)

My DH is a SAHD, although he is also an MD. The most important thing to him is that someone is home with the kids, and he wants it to be him. He's been home for 6 years. He does 90% of the cooking, 60% of the cleaning, 50% of the laundry, and more kid stuff than me. I do organize all the kid stuff like school, activities, dr appts, dentist, etc, because he isn't interested in doing it.

I do, however, come home in the evening and take over with the kids immediately and completely. I spend weekends with them, I make sure DH can do whatever he wants to get some down time, etc. I do my excercise at 5:30 am so I'm not gone when the kids are awake, etc.

I think it works fine, because we talk about this stuff and respect each other.

[jent]

I'm probably the oddity here, in that DH and I have opposite gender roles to the norm to a large degree. I make a lot more money than he does, and I think that contributes to it.


This is us too. I work more hours and make more $$. DH does about equal amount of the cooking & grocery shopping, some of the cleaning (though mainly we just use a cleaning service) and some laundry. But I have to say the hat of "household manager" falls mainly to me: weekly meal planning; keeping track of our schedules/ planning trips and vacations; buying DD's clothes/gear/toys; etc. DH will do what I ask him, but he just doesn't seem to be able to see what's needed ahead.


Lori, I don't mean to jump into an argument with you, it's just that this quote really struck me and it's something I've thought of many times before. If your (or any woman's) DH really is able to manage a FT career with an upward trajectory, I'll bet he could manage the household effectively if he had to. Sure, there would be a learning curve - there is for everything. But he'd manage.

I do see what you mean, but if DH were truly in charge of the household, he'd manage, but it would be a different household. If it were up to DH, we wouldn't bother putting laundry in the dressers-- we're going to wear it anyway, so just leave it in the basket, right? And the time to think about what to have for dinner is about 5 minutes _after_ you're starving. When I'm working a lot and leave things to DH, this is what does happen. If consequences happen due to his poor planning (eg, DD driving him crazy b/c he is trying to finish cooking dinner and she is hungry/cranky) he gets through it, complains about it, then does it the same way next time. This is why it did not work for us to be the completely role-reversed couple, with me working FT hours at my current job. I felt like the nagging spouse: why isn't the house clean? why isn't the laundry put away? why is dinner late? what the heck do you DO all day?

Anyway, these are mainly our issues, and we're working through them and have found a balance that works for us, but overall it seems that DH approaches things differently than I would, and I don't know if that's due to innate gender differences, learned gender differences, or our personalities. Likely a combo of all three, but it does feel like gender has a lot to do with it. Like something makes me WANT to care about all this stuff, and similarly DH doesn't see why some things are a big deal.


Mamas don't let your babies grow up to marry doctors!

Or BE doctors. It's a very draining, demanding profession, and one that feels more and more under-appreciated as time goes on.

ETA: Tarah, I cross-posted with you, and now that I'm reading your post, I feel so damn lazy. I just couldn't do those hours and be a mom to DD and stay sane.

[maestramommy]

I'm not sure I completely get your question. But it's hard to compare because my Dh's career isn't as intense as your Dh's. He is an electrical engineer and works regular hours. Occasionally he works evenings and weekends. But at no time is he burning the candle at both ends because of work.

I am a SAHM for the simple reason that we wanted one of us to stay home, and I (as a teacher) was making a fraction of what Dh makes. There's no way my salary could support us. So it made sense of me to stay home. If our jobs were reversed, Dh would stay home. Although after seeing what my life is like and getting a taste of it on the weekends, I don't know how long that would last :p In any case, I'm not sure if there is gender bias in our marriage. Dh did think that women have a better nurturing "gene," at least better than he does. And there is the whole ease of breastfeeding thing. So maybe there is gender bias at play here. But I'm on board with it, so it works for us.

[newg]

I am a SAHM for the simple reason that we wanted one of us to stay home, and I (as a teacher) was making a fraction of what Dh makes. There's no way my salary could support us. So it made sense of me to stay home. If our jobs were reversed, Dh would stay home. Although after seeing what my life is like and getting a taste of it on the weekends, I don't know how long that would last :p In any case, I'm not sure if there is gender bias in our marriage. Dh did think that women have a better nurturing "gene," at least better than he does. And there is the whole ease of breastfeeding thing. So maybe there is gender bias at play here. But I'm on board with it, so it works for us.

:yeahthat:

[bubbaray]

There is definitely gender bias in our marriage. DH wishes he were married to June Cleaver. *I* am about as far away from that as possible. He would love to come home to her, put his feet up and do nothing except be waited on hand and foot.

OP, funny you should mention polygamy. I think that's an ideal solution. J/K.

[arivecchi]

Just want to say that with #2 on the way, you definitely need a nanny. It will make your life a million times better. I know someone who is moving out of state in June and has an awesome nanny that cooks AND cleans! Let me know if you are interested!

[mamicka]

I'm a SAHM & although we pretty much have traditional roles - me with kids & house, him with career - I don't think we have those gender biases as how we think things should be. This is hard to put into words. I guess I see it as this is how it works for us for the most part. However, DH does cook & also shops for groceries & does laundry & will definitely change his work schedule in order to take kids to dr appts or the like when I can't. So I would say that on the surface it may look like it but no, we don't have gender biases in our marriage.

[wellyes]

I am a SAHM for the simple reason that we wanted one of us to stay home, and I (as a teacher) was making a fraction of what Dh makes. There's no way my salary could support us. So it made sense of me to stay home. If our jobs were reversed, Dh would stay home. Although after seeing what my life is like and getting a taste of it on the weekends, I don't know how long that would last :p In any case, I'm not sure if there is gender bias in our marriage.

I'd argue that the fact that the vast majority of men make more than women, making it almost always more reasonable for her to be the one to stay home, *is* gender bias. I personally think there is gender bias is many, many marriages - in my circle of friends and in larger society as a whole. BUT that definitely doesn't mean that either partner is sexist or that embraces tradition or doesn't think of women as equals, etc.


I do see what you mean, but if DH were truly in charge of the household, he'd manage, but it would be a different household. If it were up to DH, we wouldn't bother putting laundry in the dressers-- we're going to wear it anyway, so just leave it in the basket, right? And the time to think about what to have for dinner is about 5 minutes _after_ you're starving. When I'm working a lot and leave things to DH, this is what does happen. If consequences happen due to his poor planning (eg, DD driving him crazy b/c he is trying to finish cooking dinner and she is hungry/cranky) he gets through it, complains about it, then does it the same way next time. This is why it did not work for us to be the completely role-reversed couple, with me working FT hours at my current job. I felt like the nagging spouse: why isn't the house clean? why isn't the laundry put away? why is dinner late? what the heck do you DO all day?

Personally I'm a *big* fan of letting go and letting him do things his way rather than letting him have free time while I do it all. Giving up control and letting things get silly sometimes is preferable to me than doing all the work. It has taken YEARS, and he still frustrates the heck out of me sometimes. But for me, it's important my daughter see the kind of marriage I want HER to have, with a husband who cooks, does laundry, etc.

We do have a cleaning lady, though, that helps enormously. Her fee is worth waaaaaaaay more than the arguments we used to have.

A live-in nanny would be glorious.

[wellyes]

oops dp! Sorry!

[Moneypenny]

I'm not sure how to answer since I am the WOHP and DH is a SAHD. Before the kiddo, we made pretty much equal amounts of money and had an equal career trajectory. It was kind of a sudden decision for us that DH would leave his career and be a SAHD, and we didn't initially dream it would last this long, but now we are both kind of attached to having one of us at home. I don't make a ton of money at all, but I have great job security and decent benefits, which are things he would likely never get working in the private sector. I also don't have the skill set to be a successful or happy full-time SAHM, so it makes sense that DH is the one to stay home as long as we can afford it.

At first, it was hard for me because I had the expectation that I would still continue to do my portion of the housework (and we were always pretty 50/50 on that) and all of the household management stuff. Gradually DH convinced me that it made sense for him to take over all the housework, so with the exception of a few things that I just am not willing to give up, he does all the cleaning and most of the errand running. I do still cook, grocery shop, do laundry, and manage the day-to-day finances but only because I am too much of a control freak to let that go. DH would happily take those things on as well if I let him, lol!

One thing I know DH struggles with is the idea people have of him that he must be somehow unable to hold down a decent job, and that is why he's a SAHP. Women staying at home have no such stereotype to combat, but because it isn't the norm for a man to give up a decent career to stay home with his kid(s), people assume he must not be capable of getting and keeping a decent job. I know that bothers him, because DH was really very good at what he did and worked very hard at it.

[maestramommy]

I'd argue that the fact that the vast majority of men make more than women, making it almost always more reasonable for her to be the one to stay home, *is* gender bias. I personally think there is gender bias is many, many marriages - in my circle of friends and in larger society as a whole. BUT that definitely doesn't mean that either partner is sexist or that embraces tradition or doesn't think of women as equals, etc.

Possibly, just saying that in my situation it's purely coincidental. I mean, teachers DO make a fraction of what EE's make. If I were the EE and Dh was the teacher, he'd probably stay home. But I understand your point:)



A live-in nanny would be glorious.

Dh once said, "you don't need a babysitter. You need an Alice. Remember how Carol was always just sitting there reading a magazine when Mike got home?":hysterical::hysterical:

[tarahsolazy]

Or BE doctors. It's a very draining, demanding profession, and one that feels more and more under-appreciated as time goes on.

ETA: Tarah, I cross-posted with you, and now that I'm reading your post, I feel so damn lazy. I just couldn't do those hours and be a mom to DD and stay sane.[/QUOTE]

I love being a doctor. Its more than a job. If it were just a job, it would be way too hard, I'd just quit. And seriously, I'm totally lazy too, see my username? I can do it, because my DH is so supportive, he does everything all the SAHMs on this board do for their DHs. We think if we were both practicing, we'd need so much help that our family life would suck, so he stays home.

[kijip]

I'd argue that the fact that the vast majority of men make more than women, making it almost always more reasonable for her to be the one to stay home, *is* gender bias. I personally think there is gender bias is many, many marriages - in my circle of friends and in larger society as a whole. BUT that definitely doesn't mean that either partner is sexist or that embraces tradition or doesn't think of women as equals, etc.



True.

Here is an article about the wage gap in married couples shifting:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33196583/ns/business-careers/

it includes a rather bizarre quote from a husband:

“We’re Christians, so for me to not be the breadwinner … it’s not the easiest thing,” he said.

I had no idea how Christ weighs in on this matter. Seriously, I get the social pressures that make it uncomfortable for this man but I don't get that it would be Christ-based.

[maestramommy]

True.

Here is an article about the wage gap in married couples shifting:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33196583/ns/business-careers/

it includes a rather bizarre quote from a husband:

“We’re Christians, so for me to not be the breadwinner … it’s not the easiest thing,” he said.

I had no idea how Christ weighs in on this matter. Seriously, I get the social pressures that make it uncomfortable for this man but I don't get that it would be Christ-based.

:p Now I think that's funny, but at one time I would've been nodding my head seriously. For a few years I was in a campus fellowship that was quite conservative, and gender roles were strongly emphasized. I can't even remember what scripture was used to talk about the male role as the breadwinner, although I strongly suspect it was folded in with "As Christ is head of the Church, so the man is the head of the house (gotta find the reference later). And for the woman look no further than Proverbs 31.

[wellyes]

Possibly, just saying that in my situation it's purely coincidental. I mean, teachers DO make a fraction of what EE's make. If I were the EE and Dh was the teacher, he'd probably stay home. But I understand your point:)I'm married to an engineer too - and I make a fraction of what he makes - I do wonder, sometimes, how the choices we made growing up in our careers were driven (unconsciously) by our genders. Women do tend to chose college paths that lead to lower-paying professions - like teaching or liberal arts. I'm not sure why, except perhaps that ambition is considered a desirable trait in men but much less so in women. But then again, perhaps that's not so true anymore - I'm pretty far from academia now, I only remember my own early 1990s college observations, and i do think things are shifting a bit and it will not necessarily be the same when our sons and daughters are old enough to pick their careers.

[egoldber]

FWIW, DH and I both have technical degrees. He has a BA in computer engineering and I have a MS in Statistics. I definitely started out at a higher pay level than he did. But although his field in general pays more than mine, I was always on a higher "track" than he was, so I always made as much as he did and always had more prestigious "titles".

I was definitely called "aggressive" when I was in my earlier career (and it generally was not meant as a compliment....) . I was always angling for more work, better projects, etc. So having that attitude definitely makes you more successful. I think that women are taught in many ways that these are not "feminine" behaviors, so I do think that we subconsciously sabotage women in many ways *if* career sucess in a demanding field is important to them. Now that I'm in my second career, I just don't have that drive. I'm content to just do the work assigned to me and do it competently, vs trying to shine and be a star. But seriously, there is only so much time in the day. Before I had kids I never understood people like me. :p


Women do tend to chose college paths that lead to lower-paying professions - like teaching or liberal arts. I'm not sure why, except perhaps that ambition is considered a desirable trait in men but much less so in women.

I think it's a huge tragedy that between elementary school and high school many young girls lose their passion for science and math. I know that more women than men are now entering college, even in technical fields, but I really think this is more the overall relatively low interest students in this country have for science related fields. Hopefully, if I have this wrong someone will correct me.

[larig]

I think it's a huge tragedy that between elementary school and high school many young girls lose their passion for science and math. I know that more women than men are now entering college, even in technical fields, but I really think this is more the overall relatively low interest students in this country have for science related fields. Hopefully, if I have this wrong someone will correct me.

Wow, I can actually talk about my dissertation research IRL! I'm an learning sciences researcher and study women in STEM fields (STEM = sci, tech, eng & math) Cool!

Women only account for about 20% of engineering majors, after 3 decades of stakeholders trying to improve that number. The problem is that there is a finite number of women for all majors, so if they chose something they're NOT choosing something else. In the 70s women were poorly represented in business schools too (just as bad as engineering's numbers), but for some reason, women, in the meantime started enrolling in business school at the same rate as men. So, I'd suggest one reason women aren't going into technical fields is that a lot of them who are good at math are going into business. I expect as a result of the recent financial downturn and the black eye that the business world has gotten in this recession that perhaps that may change.

But, we're not doing a good job educating our girls about careers in technical fields--they just don't have any clue what people in these fields do on a day-to-day basis. In my data collection I learned that even women who are freshmen in engineering have very little idea what their work will look like once they're in the real world. They also have misconceptions about what kind of work you can do with other STEM degrees, e.g., they think that all you can do with a math degree is teach.

[hellokitty]

Interesting about the doctor talk. My dad's a doctor and after watching the unbelievable amt of crap my mom has to put up with, I vowed I never wanted to marry a doctor. To this day, it's the #1 disappointment my parents have of me is that I did NOT marry a doctor (and I didn't become one, b/c I had no desire to be a doc). In fact when I was a teenager, I got into a big argument with my parents and told them I would never, ever marry a doctor, b/c I didn't want to marry someone like my dad. I don't think I've ever said anything to my parents that pissed them off so much, and I look back now and think it's hilarious that of all things I have said, that was my parents chose to get upset about. :p

Ppl think that it's great to be married to a doctor, that you get to live in a nice house, drive nice cars, wear nice clothes and don't have to worry about $. They act like you are living some sort of life of luxury. The truth is that the spouse of the doctor is the one who has to pick up EVERYTHING to keep the family/household running, and that is a lot of work and ppl don't realize this aspect of being a doctor's spouse. Most spouses of doctors that I know are pretty unhappy. They give up a lot for their doctor spouse's career and education to come first. They often get ditched being a single parent and the doctor is so caught up in their own career and him/herself that the spouse always comes last, b/c the doctor's needs are always the #1 priority. In fact, I think that a lot of children of doctors do not feel close to the parent who is a doctor, b/c they spend so little time with them. That is how my brothers and I all felt. Yes, my dad provided us with shelter, clothes and food, but he was so caught up with himself and his work, we knew we were not the #1 priority. I have a lot of friends who are doctors and ones who are doctor-doctor couples and I see the same pattern over and over again.

[egoldber]

Women only account for about 20% of engineering majors, after 3 decades of stakeholders trying to improve that number. The problem is that there is a finite number of women for all majors, so if they chose something they're NOT choosing something else. In the 70s women were poorly represented in business schools too (just as bad as engineering's numbers), but for some reason, women, in the meantime started enrolling in business school at the same rate as men. So, I'd suggest one reason women aren't going into technical fields is that a lot of them who are good at math are going into business. I expect as a result of the recent financial downturn and the black eye that the business world has gotten in this recession that perhaps that may change.

Interesting. Maybe it is medicine that I am remembering now where women outnumber men? (Although based on hellokitty's post, not wishing that life on anyone LOL!!!) I wish I could recall. I was a double major in math and English and I was definitely one of only one or two women in almost all of my upper division math classes.

[wellyes]

My husband has been an automotive engineer in two companies, and in both cases female engineers were very very few & far between. But every. single. one. of the women I met was awesome -- strong, confident, funny, smart. I'd love it if my daughter went down that road (if she has the mindset / persona for it).

[mommylamb]

True.

Here is an article about the wage gap in married couples shifting:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33196583/ns/business-careers/

it includes a rather bizarre quote from a husband:

“We’re Christians, so for me to not be the breadwinner … it’s not the easiest thing,” he said.

I had no idea how Christ weighs in on this matter. Seriously, I get the social pressures that make it uncomfortable for this man but I don't get that it would be Christ-based.

:rotflmao: I'm sorry, this made me laugh out loud. I just don't get it (then again, I'm not Christian, but most of my Christian friends would find this really strange).