What is up with the catty preschool aged girls around me?

[g-mama]

Let me preface this by saying this is not meant to be a "boys vs. girls" argument, or an argument at all. Just a discussion of what is with the state of (some) little girls.

Our preschool is a co-op. I work in the classroom an average of one day a month and have been doing this for six years now. Over the years, the situation with the girls being catty and cliquish has gotten worse and worse. This year, in my 4yo's ds' class, it is out of control. It is a constant state of drama and "you're my friend," "you're not my friend" and "you can't play with us today for xyz reason" and "you can't come over to my house" and "you can't sit next to me today" and on and on and on.

I can tell the teachers are exasperated and seem frustrated by the need to stop and address the class numerous times a day (which is a 3.5 hour day) about "we are all friends, we need to talk nicely to our classmates, etc."

But it is only the girls who do it.

Even my 4yo ds, who has been great friends with the dd of my best friend since they were 1 year old, is lately being talked to this way by her. He just looks at her, bewildered, and can't understand why she suddenly turns on him for no reason. Her mom (my friend) has two older boys and is experiencing this for the first time and sadly says she picks it up at preschool.

What does this say about our society? Is this innate? Where does it come from? The moms of the girls in the preschool class seem to be sweet and kind and good moms, so I am just so confused as to why this happens.

My third grade ds tells me sometimes about all the drama amongst the girls in his class and who is fighting with who, who isn't speaking to who, etc., etc. and just shakes his head. So this is how he views many girls, it is what he sees and experiences.

Thoughts, anyone?

[SnuggleBuggles]

I noticed this behavior back when ds1 was in the 4yo preschool program. It scared me a bunch! I had no idea that it started that early. I admit, when I got pg a few months later I hoped for a boy to avoid that drama. Anyway, it started at 4yo and is still going with his classmates in 2nd grade.

Beth

[egoldber]

I think it does happen a lot with girls, but not all girls. In particular, I think there is often a "queen bee" who is at the center of the drama. This has been my observational exprience. So whether or not one observes it with any particular group of girls depends on whether or not there is a strong queen bee in that group.

I saw it in action this weekend. You know how glorious it was here this weekend, and we spent pretty much all day Satuirday and Sunday outside in our yards playing with the neighbor kids. They played, nine kids with ages ranging from 3 to 8, happily and peacefully. A couple squabbles, but nothing that was out of the ordinary. On Sunday afternoon, my next door neighbor had a school friend over for a playdate. This girl immediately changed the whole dynamic. She created groups, divided the kids against each other and generally pretty much ruined in 2 hours a whole weekend that had been spent happily and harmoniously playing. As a parent it was so frustrating to watch and as much as the other mom and I tried to re-direct, it did not help. This same thing happened when this girl came over to play another time, so I now know that as soon as she shows up, I'm going to tell my kids it's time to go home.

I've seen this same thing happen in my older DD's Girl Scout troop. When two particular girls (out of 20) are there, they create divisions and drama. When they happen to not be at the meetings, everyone is happy and the girls get along well. My older DD is often their target so I have watched then closely, and the subtlety with which these kids create these situations is really almost astounding to watch.

I am just so not sure what to do or how to respond. One of the books I read (I think maybe Queen Bees and Wannabes), talks about how girls create social drama and use relational aggression because they are so strongly discouraged from physical outlets and physical aggression. Whereas we say "boys will be boys" and to some extent they push and shove and get it out, girls are reprimanded for similar behaviors and learn instead to "get even" or get those aggressive feelings out in more subtle ways.

I don't know that there is anything special about today though vs previous years. I think this dynamic has been around for a long time.

[maestramommy]

I haven't heard of any of this kind of behavior in Dora's class. But the director did tell me a couple of years ago there was a girl in the 3s class like this. She was very sophisticated about it too, and really messed with the dynamic of the class. I believe that case was rare and extreme though, and the girl herself had some issues.

Dora hasn't mentioned any of the girls behaving this way. She usually says who's her friend, which turns about to be just about everyone. She hasn't even mentioned anyone she doesn't like. Maybe we're just lucky, or maybe this class is still too young?

[citymama]

Ugh, I know this (I started a post with this topic a few months ago). yes, I am familiar with 4 yr olds and cattiness setting in - my poor DD was on the receiving end of it a few months ago. There's a shocking amount of clique-iness in her class, and well, she's not really part of the cliques. She doesn't seem to be very bothered by it any more but back in Dec-Jan it was really frustrating to all of us and stressful for her.

[Wife_and_mommy]

The first posts don't strike me as non-boy-vs.-girl but whatever.

I think I'd take a closer look at these little girls' moms as I've had a similar issue in dd's class. The little girl who treats my DD this way most definitely learned it from her mother. I have a fake smile/courtesy alarm that goes beserk whenever I talk to this woman.

[deborah_r]

DS2 constantly tells DS1, DH, and me that he's "never gonna be your friend!" whenever he doesn't get his way. (sounds like "nevah gonna be ya fren" and it's hard not to laugh when he says it...3 minutes later he loves us and wants to be our friend!) I have been wondering if he picked this up at daycare, which would be interesting because there are many more boys in his group than girls. He may have gotten it from DS1, who likes to tell DS2 he's not going to be his friend if he doesn't play with him they way DS1 wants him to.

[truly scrumptious]

I am just so not sure what to do or how to respond. One of the books I read (I think maybe Queen Bees and Wannabes), talks about how girls create social drama and use relational aggression because they are so strongly discouraged from physical outlets and physical aggression. Whereas we say "boys will be boys" and to some extent they push and shove and get it out, girls are reprimanded for similar behaviors and learn instead to "get even" or get those aggressive feelings out in more subtle ways.

I don't know that there is anything special about today though vs previous years. I think this dynamic has been around for a long time.

What you say above really resonates with me. I think this is a way to assert power for young girls, and the explanation above makes a lot of sense. I do think some power play is healthy and part of learning about boundaries, but I think adults need to model positive behavior, too. Just like we teach boys (and girls!) that pushing and shoving is not the best way to express themselves, we need to model positive social behavior, too. MUCH harder to so, especially since a lot of this kind of "cattiness" aggression is socially acceptable (like not asking a co-worker to lunch with a group, talking behind other people's backs, etc.)

I also agree that there is nothing special about today vs. yesteryear - i was the victim of this a LOT in elementary school. Maybe the difference now is in how early it is starting.

[g-mama]

The first posts don't strike me as non-boy-vs.-girl but whatever.



What? Did I say something offensive? I don't understand what this sentence means.

[Karenn]

In particular, I think there is often a "queen bee" who is at the center of the drama. This has been my observational exprience. So whether or not one observes it with any particular group of girls depends on whether or not there is a strong queen bee in that group.



I think this is true. DD came home from her 4's class today with plenty of drama stories that all centered around one or two girls. I can't figure out which is the queen bee. Sometimes I wonder if there are a couple in DD's class. It's hard for me to see this kind of behavior start so young. I guess I need to start reading my "girl books." I haven't read Queen Bees and Wannabes, but it's been on my list.

[o_mom]

At 4yo I think much of it is experimenting - there was a great article on this posted a few weeks ago on why they do it and what you can do to facilitate a nicer interaction. However, if not corrected, redirected or otherwise addressed I think it can become ingrained/habit and get out of hand later resulting in the bullying and cattiness in older kids. I would think that each time it occurs it needs to be addressed directly and better behavior modeled, the underlying issue verbalized, etc. It may be hard in a preschool, but if you could get the teachers on board (give them the article, etc.) and move away from whole group admonishments which are easy for the kids to dismiss as not applying to them, it will at least show the kids it won't be tolerated and give them a way to work around it.

My older two play with two girls and it becomes exclusionary at times. I try to step in whenever I hear it and redirect them as to how they can all play together (it is particularly bad when three of the four are together with the odd man out going on).

[Moneypenny]

I posted about something similar (except in my DD's kindy class) a few weeks ago. I don't have any answers, but it is disturbing and perplexing to me. What Beth mentioned about a "Queen Bee" is spot on in our situation. It's one girl who seems to get a few of the other more impressionable girls to go along with her. When the leader is gone, the other girls are perfectly friendly and very inclusive in their play and communication.

I know several grown women like this, and I have sort of just come to think that this little girl is going to grow up to be one of those adults. For whatever reason, she gets her self-esteem from a perception of superiority and control. I guess it doesn't matter if you are 4 years old or 40...the behavior remains the same.

[g-mama]

I know several grown women like this, and I have sort of just come to think that this little girl is going to grow up to be one of those adults. For whatever reason, she gets her self-esteem from a perception of superiority and control. I guess it doesn't matter if you are 4 years old or 40...the behavior remains the same.

Yes, I do, too. I think you are right. And I also agree with the Queen Bee thing. There does appear to be one Queen Bee, now that I think about it.

The teachers mainly address the girls who are involved in a particular incident she overhears or is told about, not the entire class. Although, there is one boy in the class who does jump in with the same type of stuff. He has two older sisters and I've heard the mom mention that she does nothing just for him, that he is dragged along to all his sisters' playdates and activities and that they have a very "girl-dominated house." So I guess he just hears nothing but this type of behavior. He is quite aggressive at the same time, so he throws in his own brand of physical pushing and shoving to follow up with his "I don't like you" statements. ;)

[Karenn]

So I looked at that Queen Bees and Wannabes book on Amazon again and it really seemed geared towards adolescents. I'm not sure I'm ready to go down that road yet! Is there good information in there for the preschool/young elementary set too or should I wait?

And o_mom, would you mind linking to that article you mentioned? I think DD's teacher would be totally receptive.

[o_mom]

Here's the article: http://www.becomingtheparent.com/subsections1/question13.html

From this thread:

http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=351609

[nfowife]

absolutely having issues with this in DD's preschool class this year. In our situation there are 2 "queen bees" that all the other girls (only about 6-7 total girls) follow. They have a hierarchy and everything. I HATE it. My DD fits somewhere in the middle. I've seen a lot of "boy vs. girl" stuff this year too, like you can't play with some toys because they are boy toys (or girl toys), all the birthday parties seem to be boy or girl parties (no mixed parties that I've seen so far). Also hearing a lot about being "beautiful". It hasn't really caused problems at home yet, but it gets on my nerves. The teacher seems a bit oblivious in general about it. I will see how it is next year in kinder- we'll be moving and with a new group of kids.

[ewpmsw]

I watched my nieces (5 and almost 4) do this to one another at Thanksgiving. Their mom ignored it and their grandmother incorporated it into the games she was playing with them. I figured they're both more experienced with kids that age than me and left it alone, but do wonder about it. I think it's partially a reflection of what some kids see their parents do and partially the age. Just can not wait to see how it plays out when it's my kids.