How many students in your kid's elementary class . . . school freakout

[sste]

I am having a school freak-out here, even though DS is only 2.5 y/o.

I have now turned down all out of state job offers/visits due to pregnancy.

Without going into detail a combination of DH's job and highway construction makes it untenable for us to live in the suburbs, either north or west.

Fine, we identify a cute neighborhood in the city. But very little single family housing and bizarre city system of trying to get into an elementary school. Classes are routinely 27-30 kids . . . and there has been talk of budget cuts increasing that. We would do private kindy but then would want to transfer him to public school.

As far as I can tell the school outcomes data is inconclusive - - has never been able to establish that small class size matters except for possibly disadvantaged kids/early elementary. But, obviously outcomes aren't the only issue I want a nice environment and enjoyable experience for DS for grades 1 onward.

What is your elementary school class size? Your view of 27-30 kid classes?

[kristenk]

DD's kindergarten class has 21 students in it. We started off the school year with 20 students in all 3 K classes. If there had been something like 2 more K students, they would have split the kids into 4 classes instead of 3.

I've heard rumors that we'll have 3 first grade teachers next year, instead of the 4 that they have this year. This year's 1st grade classes have something like 17 kids/class.

I'd probably freak out a bit at the 27-30 number, just because I know that the classes in the past have been much, much smaller. I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping that next year we have 4 1st grade classes.

[Momof3Labs]

If not the north or west suburbs, have you considered south or southwest?

We're southwest, and use the public schools. DS1 had 17 or 18 kids in his kindergarten class, and 22-23 (one mid-year transfer) in his second grade class.

[momof2girls]

That number seems VERY high to me. Will there be an aide in each class to help out? I would think they would need one in the very least. D had 19 in her K class. Now has 19 in First Grade

[Leeannpk]

Are those numbers for kindergarten, 1st or 2nd grade? Around here it is not unusual for a 4th or 5th grade class to have 27 or 28 kids in it, but younger grades are kept smaller. My kindergartener has 22 kids in her class and my 1st grader has 20. I'd call the school directly to inquire about the actual sizes of kindergarten and 1st grade classes.

[HIU8]

We are not going to our neighborhood elem school, but when I visited it they had 3 classes of 22 kids each for K this year. Last year I believe they had 4 classes of 18 or 19 in K. I have been told that my county just approved a new ratio of 1 teacher to 27 students for K starting next year. I'm so used to 12-15 kids per class that even 19 or 22 shocked me. Howeve, it is totally understandable that there are many more kids in the class the higher the grade.

[SnuggleBuggles]

k- 22 kids but 3 full time, experienced teachers, private school
1- 19 kids, 1 teacher, 1 aide that floated bewteen the 3 1st classes
2nd- 23, same situation as 1st
3rd- 24 kids :( I think it's too high with only 1 teacher.

I would much prefer 18 for all grades. My friend is a 3rd grade teacher and she says that you can really feel even an extra 2 kids.

Beth

[AnnieW625]

Out here in California class sizes in most public schools this fall are going to be between 25 and 30 kids, and once it's into the higher grades 30 is almost standard. It's almost the same maybe a bit smaller in the Catholic school but not by much. I am probably the only mom here who isn't 100% concerned about class size because as someone who went through public school in the 80s and 90s with always at least 25 kids in a class I never felt like I was being given a less of an education than I was had the classes been a bit smaller. Now what really concerns me about education is the cutting of music, arts, phys. ed., and science programs, and or release time teachers at many schools. If higher class sizes meant that they could keep some of these programs then I'd be happy, but it doesn't mean anything and therefore that is why we are considering Catholic school too.

[SkyrMommy]

Our younger grades K-3 are usually around 20 students give or take 1-2 in either direction. Older grades are sometimes more 24-25, but with budget cuts this year we may reach the higher number across the board.

As a former teacher I consider class size of 27-30+ students in the younger grades is very high & think that students will lose out on individual learning time even with a teacher's aide in the room. That big of a class just doesn't leave room to wiggle in terms of adapting lessons to different needs/teachable moments.

As a parent I wouldn't like to have my child in that situation and miss out on some individual attention as well as activities that may be impossible with such a huge group.

:hug5: I hope that you can find a school/situation that is best for DS... at least you are thinking now & have time to work on it.

[pinkmomagain]

That sounds very high. I think in our district it is under 25. Is there an assistant or aide in the classroom besides the main teacher?

[craftysierra]

Another California Mom here. My Son's K class removed the 20 to 1 ratio started about 15 yrs ago here. So he has 30ish kids in the class. There have been a few leave & come. Not thrilled, but it is the ratios I went to school in.

Sierra

[tmarie]

17 kids/class is the average at our elementary school for kindergarten. unfortunately it might go up next year due to budget cuts. worst case it could go up to 20-22.

tmarie

[egoldber]

Classes are routinely 27-30 kids

What age group?

In our district they try really hard to keep the K-3 classes smaller, but they do get to be that size in grades 4+. In our school, the K classes have about 20-24 kids with a full time aide. Older DD had 19 in her (private) K with a full time aide, 23 in her (public) 1st grade with a half time aide, 22 in second and 24 in her class this year.

We are moving her to a different school next year and I think there will be close to 30 kids in her class there.

IMO, the teacher makes all the difference. A teacher with poor class management skills can do poorly with 18 kids and a teacher with great class management skills can make a class of 28 seem fine. And of course, a teacher with poor skills and a class of 27-30 is not a pretty sight.

[arivecchi]

SSTE, would you still be in the same county? There is a CPS proposal to have classes go up to 37 kids per class due to budget cuts.

[dhano923]

We live in So. CA and DS's 1st grade class has 27 kids. That's average for public school here. They rely heavily on parent volunteers to help in the classrooms. I was told during school orientation that some of the older rooms (4th-5th grade) have 30 kids.

[g-mama]

My kindergartener's class size is now 25 with one teacher and one aide. In January, it got up to 29 students, but not until each of the six K classes in the school reached 29 could they add a seventh class and they took 5 from each class to put into the new class. Within a week, though, another new kid was brought into ds' class. Our school grows by leaps and bounds every single year. It's crazy....BUT our school is fantastic and the kids do very well there and we are very happy as parents.

My 3rd grader's class has 25 or 26 in it.

[jenmcadams]

Currently, our school has 2 K classes at 24-26 (Teacher + 5 hrs of Aid/Para support) and then in 1, 2, and 3, we go to 3 classes of 18-22 kids each (we add kids b/c we're a highly sought after school that has a long waiting list of people who didn't get in for K) with less Aid/Para support (they still have some, but it's not dedicated). Starting in 4th, we go back to 2 classes per grade and end up close to 30 kids per class.

Our budget cuts just got announced and starting with the current year's K class, they are going to cut a teacher and remove a class at each grade 1-3 for the next three years. So, we'll have only two classes at every grade. So, there will be 24-26 kids in every class from K-6. My DD who is currently a 2nd grader only has 17 kids in her class and will have a similar sized 3rd grade class before hitting the larger classes in 4th grade. My DS will never know the small 1-3 classes, but he'll also never know the gigantic 4th-6th classes.

[jess_g]

At our elementary school they try to keep the numbers below 20 until 4th grade and then increase the size to about 22 or 24 after that. This year we have 19 in my ds's K class and 25 in my older ds's 4th grade class and lots of parents complained about the number in the 4th grade class. It realy depends on staffing. My kids are at a small elementary school so they do what they can to keep the numbers the same from year to year. I do think that 27 in a K class is pretty large. Have you gone into the school to look around and see how they have everything setup? Maybe there is a teachers helper or something in the class.

Jessica.

[heatherlynn]

DS in public K has about 18 now. The private Catholic school he's going to next year has 28 kids in each class, but 2 teachers. The public school that he would have gone to next year is supposed to have between 25-27 for grades 1-4.

[sste]

Hi everyone and thanks! A few more details:

1. There is no guaranteed aide in any class - - some years some schools have them but its nothing you can plan for and is not the norm.

2. The kindy can go up to 30 and in the better city schools it seems to always be 27-30 kids b/c parents move to send their kids there. We would def. do private kindy, sad to say I don't even care about his kindy education I am just worried DS will get trampled and no one will notice!

3. Early elementary (grades 1 through 3) in the good city schools I would say it varies from about 26-31 with again usually no aide. Some schools do split the kids in half so there are only 15 or so in art, gym, and music, but core subjects are usually the full class. By the luck of the draw its possible to end up with 23 or 24 or 25 but those are not typical numbers.

4. The gifted schools are insanely hard to place into - - essentially your four year old must score I think in the 99% percentile on a logical/analytical test administered across about 20 minutes. AND with that score they weight your socio-economic status by census tract and we would almost certainly be in the highest SES census tract.

5. Yes, arrivechi, we are looking at the county with a potential increase to 37 kids!! That is part of the freakout, esp. since we have no way of knowing if it will happen and we are finding it hard to find a rental so buying will lock us in.

Can't anything ever be easy??!!

Southern suburbs are an idea but really given DH's long hours and his variable work schedule from hospital to hospital, we are finding it difficult to make any suburb work and keep our commutes under 50 minutes. Just another reason I am not a fan of dh's job . . .

ETA: The city schools I am looking at all have good test scores but I am VERY dubious of that given that they are drawing fairly affluent student bodies. Given our family's educational background and SES the odds are high that DS would have strong test scores if I kept him at home and "unschooled" or just let him run feral!!

[ThreeofUs]

Sounds high - way too high. We are at a 1:10 ratio at a private community school.

[egoldber]

we are looking at the county with a potential increase to 37 kids!!

I would live in an apartment in a different city before I would do that. I don't understand how they can physically even fit that many kids into a room. Maybe K kids, but 5th and 6th graders are almost adult sized. There are some kids in DD's third grade class as tall as I am!

[arivecchi]

Have you looked at private schools? I found some that were not super expensive (in the 6-8 K range in parts of the city). Most were Catholic though. I am in the same boat. I think if we sell the house, we will likely have to move out of the city because too many things are in flux in the CPS system.

[sste]

Well, I def. agree with the poster that would move - - 31 is the absolute, uppermost limit in my mind and that would be post-kindy and I would not be happy. If it was 37, dh and I would not send him but would be in the sucky position of paying an expensive mortgage on a city house and private school tuition.

I did start looking into catholic schools but at least the schools I looked at were ALSO starting to have high class sizes at least past second grade - - 26, 27, 28. So, it wasn't the gain I had hoped for.

The city is just crazy. Everything is oversubscribed and the "marketing" of some of these programs is insane. For example, I have considered very chi-chi, pricey preschools in the city and most of them have very large class sizes and are charging an arm and a leg. In fact, the Montessori and mixed-age classroom can be seriously abused in urban locales to charge alot of money and not provide alot of individualized attention. I have actually had much better luck finding the preschool class size I want in blended disability/low-income centers and parochial schools . . .

[JBaxter]

23 kids in Nathans kindy class. Its a handfull for his teacher

[egoldber]

The lowest class sizes here are actually in the lower SES schools. The schools with Title 1 status have mandated lower class sizes AND they get federal funding to have more teachers to keep the ratios lower.

[KrisM]

DS has 25 in his kindergarten class and that is the norm here. By 3rd grade, it can go up to 30 kids. No aides in the class. His k teacher does not want volunteers either, so it's really just her. She seems to do a great job with routines, etc and breaking them into groups and the kids seem to be doing well. DS has learned to read, done more math, etc as he's supposed to.

It did concern me when I heard about it, but it seems to work okay.

[elliput]

What is your elementary school class size? Your view of 27-30 kid classes?

DD is in pre-k right now and there are 24 kids in her class (there is a teacher, split time spec ed teacher and 2 para's). Not sure what the normal kindergarten class size is around here as it is full day kindy as opposed to half day (which will make a difference in class size). I'm pretty sure the kindergarten class, and definitely 1st grade, were at least 24 students when I was a kid.

[DebbieJ]

If not the north or west suburbs, have you considered south or southwest?

We're southwest, and use the public schools. DS1 had 17 or 18 kids in his kindergarten class, and 22-23 (one mid-year transfer) in his second grade class.

:yeahthat: We're out Lori's way. DS's kindy class is up to 25, I think, with a full time aide. It's a full day program.

[nrp]

IMO, the teacher makes all the difference. A teacher with poor class management skills can do poorly with 18 kids and a teacher with great class management skills can make a class of 28 seem fine. And of course, a teacher with poor skills and a class of 27-30 is not a pretty sight.

:yeahthat: This is what numerous studies have shown - that teacher quality is a far more important indicator of student achievement than class size. Paradoxically, there is some thought (although I am not aware of any quality research on this), that larger class sizes will generally improve teacher quality, in the aggregate, because the poorest performing teachers will be eliminated. In reality, it isn't at all clear that when teaching spots are eliminated that the "poorest" performing teachers are the ones getting fired - rather, other considerations may well come into play (seniority, "politics," etc.).

That said, I think while a really good teacher could do fine with 27-30 kids, it would be a rare teacher who could truly excel with 37.

[vdrake71]

My son is in Kindergarten and his class size is 26 for 1/2 day Kindergarten. I would tell you that I think that it is too large. There is typically a momma's helper in the class and the parents really step up to make sure that there is more than one adult in the class.

Do your school systems offer 1/2 day or full day Kindergarten?

[stonecali]

We are in North County San Diego, and our Kindergarten class size is 34!!!! (and it's half day) I would not want to be that Kindy teacher. Sheesh. We are sending DD to a private Kindy next year with a 10:1 ratio. I can't wrap my head around a 34:1 ratio. Sorry.

1st grade and above go down to 20:1, so we will send her to public starting at 1st grade, but not sure what budget cuts are going to do to that number....

[niccig]

If it was 37, dh and I would not send him but would be in the sucky position of paying an expensive mortgage on a city house and private school tuition.



This is what we have decided to do. We bought a house for the public school just after DS was born, then with all the budget cuts, we've decided to do private from K, previously we planned to do private after elementary school. We're just cutting expenses to have room in the budget - it's more than his preschool tuition, but not too much, so it's not like we went from $0 tuition. DH's job has ageism at 57 (15 years away from him), so he's said that he will not be retiring as fellow colleagues have done, he'll need to transition to something else. I'm also picking up work. So, we've changed our life financial plan to include private school.

In K, DS will have 24 kids, 2 teachers and 1 half-time aide. DS's school applications increased this year as all the school district budgets are being slashed.

The local public school for K next year will be 30 kids to 1 teacher, no aide. Grade 3 and above will be minimum 35 kids. A friend is in an uproar over it, as her DD#2 will be going to K and they are keeping the worst K teacher because she has tenure and letting go the best K teacher.

If I was in your shoes, and it's a possibility that you will have private school from K, I wouldn't buy a house. Don't do what we did and buy a house in an area of good schools if you think the schools budget will keep getting cut. Then you have mortgage + tuition. If there's any chance you can stay where you are, that might be best choice financially. Sorry, it's not a more positive answer. We too can't move because DH's job is here, and we have a house we can't sell. So, we're making the best of it. We absolutely love DS's school, so that does help. We pay for it, but he's getting the education we want, so makes it a little easier when I write that check every month.

[maestramommy]

I think 27-30 kids is fine for HS, and MAYBE MS, but for elementary, esp. kindy, that's just crazy. Course, it would depend on how many adults are present. Is it just teacher, or does he/she have an aide, more than one aide? IMO, the lower the grade, the more chance you have for utter chaos. If your DS is pretty bright, and I am assuming he is, chances are it won't impact his learning too much. But I suspect that he might get lost in the shuffle if the teacher has other more pressing needs (special needs, ELL)

[okinawama]

I taught last year and I had 29 kindy students and 1 full time aid. Anything above 30 ( and even less sometimes!!!!) turns to crowd control rather than teaching in my opinion.

[rlu]

Ok, 37 is too high for high school let alone elementary school.

At DS's school there are 5 Ks this year at 20 kids each and the school is raising the class size to 24 or so for K - 3 next year, so about 25 per class for First grade depending if they need to do a split class of k/1 or 1/2 depending on next year's incoming class. We have good API scores so we don't think too many people will drop out.

Other local districts either are already at 30:1 ration for k-3 or going that way. I haven't heard any school district locally going over that, but you never know.

eta: I'm in the South Bay in CA.

[octmom]

There are 15 kids in DS's public Kindergarten class-- 10 boys and 5 girls-- with one teacher and one aide who is there through lunchtime. There is also at least one parent volunteer in for various (usually short) pieces of the day almost every day. There were 17 kids in the class at the beginning of the year, but two girls moved away.

There are four K classes at DS's school this year (up from three last year), but I expect that there may only be three first grade classes next year unless we get a big influx of rising first graders moving into the school district. Budget cuts are leading to larger classes, but the School Board is trying to limit growing classes in the youngest grades.

ETA: A good bit of the time each afternoon when there is no aide is spent in specials--art (once/ week), music (once/week), library (once/week), PE (3 times/ week). The guidance counselor comes in for 30 minutes every Monday morning, reading groups (mixed across all 4 K classes) take up 30 minutes every morning, and Friday groups (activities with each of the 4 K teachers) take up two hours every Friday morning.

[Indianamom2]

Right now, there are about 10 kids in DD's K class (private Christian school). They expect the number to go up a little more, but if they reach 18 (doubtful gven the economy) then they will hire an aide.

27-30 seems really high for that age group, IMO.

[smilequeen]

Simon will be in K next year in a combined K/1 classroom at a private school. There are 15 kids in each grade level and 3 full time teachers. This is the same in the 2/3 classroom. The 4, 5, and 6 classes are not combined so the ratio there is 15:1 in any given class.

I don't know the size of our local public school. Their website says there are 56 K students and 3 different classes (AM, PM, and all day). I have no idea how the numbers spread out, but that seems relatively small to me.

The 1st grade classes have 21-22 students per class and by 2nd grade it is 26-26. I think a lot of people use private K in our district considering the jump in enrollment (86 students in 1st and 102 in 2nd). Even that feels big to me for just 1 teacher to deal with.

[KpbS]

Ok, 37 is too high for high school let alone elementary school.


This is my thinking as well. If I were in your situation, I'd go private elementary and not give it much thought. Budget cuts, overcrowding, etc. are happening in our district and many schools are failing. The state is wanting to to take control over the charter schools so that isn't a great alternative for now.

[Globetrotter]

I have heard people say that it's no big deal because we used to have equally large classes when we were little, but keep in mind that elementary school isn't what it used to be. Nowadays the expectations are sky high and they are learning at a lightening pace, so kids really need more individual attention to succeed. Even the kids who do well need attention so they can be challenged appropriately.

As for class size, our KG went to either 20 or 30. Yes, either. I finally learned why... the school gets extra funding for keeping class size down to 20, but they can't afford teachers for five rooms of 20 kids, so instead of making all classes 25 (which would actually make sense) they choose to have two rooms of 30 and two 20 just to get that extra funding! So half our kids are losing out in the meantime. I have friends whose kids are in the 30 kid class, and they say that there is simply no time for individual attention. If your child has difficulty with something, they are out of luck :( and the teacher doesn't have time to get to know your child on a personal basis.

Currently, grade 1-3 has a 20:1 ratio, but that is changing to 30:1. Our 4-6 is currently up to 31, and next year it's 32. Plus they have lost pretty much all enrichment (this is California - no surprise). We are moving our kids to a different school b/c of all this.


Paradoxically, there is some thought (although I am not aware of any quality research on this), that larger class sizes will generally improve teacher quality, in the aggregate, because the poorest performing teachers will be eliminated. In reality, it isn't at all clear that when teaching spots are eliminated that the "poorest" performing teachers are the ones getting fired - rather, other considerations may well come into play (seniority, "politics," etc.).


This is not happening! Unfortunately, cuts are done ONLY by seniority, so we are keeping a few teachers who essentially do nothing and laying off some brilliant, enthusiastic teachers because they are relatively new. I am up to here with union politics!! :icon_twisted: We have two teachers in our school who literally do nothing - the kids teach themselves and parents complain every.single.year but nothing ever happens. There is an elaborate two year process to get rid of them, but noone ever follows through and there is a lot of "passing the buck" here.

[Katigre]

Speaking as a teacher, my favorite class size is 12-16. Up to 21 is still good. Once you get above 22 kids then it's too big - you can't keep track of all the kids as well, you can't give as much attention to each child, there are kids who slip through the cracks. The biggest class I have ever taught was 25 kids and that felt too big (didn't help that I had a very small classroom). I cannot imagine teaching even more than that.

[vludmilla]

Well, I agree with your assessment of the existing research...there is no clear evidence that class size matters in terms of outcomes for children like your son.
I do think that teachers obviously prefer small class sizes and all other things being equal, I would always prefer it too.
Having said that, I will say that I went to parochial school for 8 years of elementary and I don't think the class size was an issue for me. I don't think it made for a poorer classroom environment in any way and if fact, I had more children to be friends with than if I had a smaller class.

[Melbel]

In our private school:

JK - 3rd Grade - 17 to 21 students per teacher with a FT teacher's aide
4th - 6th Grade - about 20 students per teacher with a teacher's aide shared between 3 classes

One of the reasons we are paying for private school is smaller class sizes.

[LexyLou]

Out here in California class sizes in most public schools this fall are going to be between 25 and 30 kids, and once it's into the higher grades 30 is almost standard. It's almost the same maybe a bit smaller in the Catholic school but not by much. I am probably the only mom here who isn't 100% concerned about class size because as someone who went through public school in the 80s and 90s with always at least 25 kids in a class I never felt like I was being given a less of an education than I was had the classes been a bit smaller. Now what really concerns me about education is the cutting of music, arts, phys. ed., and science programs, and or release time teachers at many schools. If higher class sizes meant that they could keep some of these programs then I'd be happy, but it doesn't mean anything and therefore that is why we are considering Catholic school too.
:yeahthat:

I'm a product of the CA public school system and I remember having as many as 35 kids to a class in high school.

I know for awhile in the the early 2000's they got the class size down and I think the K this year is 21 kids but it's supposed to go back up to 27 next year.

I don't LOVE it, but it's been like that forever here and I don't think it affected me negatively.

[ncat]

DD's K class has 25 and the aid is mornings only.
She does fine, but I'm not completely sure that it is ideal for all of the kids.

[bubbaray]

I think K to 3 is up to 22 students per class. DD#1's "full" French Immersion class is 19 students. There were 22 at registration, but a few dropped out.

[kijip]

T's kindergarten was a disaster. T's kindergarten class was in the 27-28 student range. However there were so many other factors (acceleration needs, serious behavior/violence problems exhibited in class by some other students, a royally burnt out teacher, district redirecting tutoring and TA $$ to 1 on 1 aides for behavior issues) that I can't really say that the class size mattered a lot in that equation. It certainly did not help, but it was just one of the issues.

His class this year has 23 students, but also many other good things.

[new_mommy25]

20 kids, 10 boys and 10 girls. Two teachers. It's private though, so they can pick their perfect ratio.

[C99]

The IL public school situation and funding cuts are unbelievable. This will affect EVERYONE, not just CPS, but suburban districts as well. I urge all Illinoisians reading this to visit NOto37.org.

ETA: In my kids' elementary school (CPS), the class size is capped at 25 kids with one aide split between the 2 classrooms in K and 1st, and between 4 classrooms in the higher grades. So far, the school only goes PK-3rd with one grade added every year. PK classes have 20 kids each with 1 teacher and 1 aide in the PFA classes and 1 teacher and 2 aides in the TBPK classes.

ETAA: The CPS doomsday class size is now 35, per Ron Huberman. Not that 35 is much better than 37....

[C99]

4. The gifted schools are insanely hard to place into - - essentially your four year old must score I think in the 99% percentile on a logical/analytical test administered across about 20 minutes. AND with that score they weight your socio-economic status by census tract and we would almost certainly be in the highest SES census tract.


It depends on the test population. My DD took it this year and they didn't give me her percentile, but told me that a certain score = 98 %tile. We are in tier 4 also. DD placed into an RGC, but we didn't take the spot - in part because I have an older child at a different school and commuting in opposite directions is not feasible, but in part because the RGC had a higher class size (28) than our current school.

[american_mama]

I will brag. Public school in a very small city, roughly 75% of school on reduced or free school lunch. Kindergarten was about 14 students, first grade and second grade each about 17 students. Even with those low student numbers, the whole district has full-time aides for each classroom in kindergarten and first grade.

Interestingly, a neighbor who is a principal in another district said he'd rather put the money towards school-wide staff, like math, reading, and gifted specialists who can enrich the entire school. I thought it was a good point.

[klwa]

When I was in school (in the dark ages, I know), 30+ was the norm. Yes, we had aides in the classroom through 2nd grade, but still, we had 30+ every time. And I think I turned out okay. :)

[Seitvonzu]

kindy around here is less than 20 kids. pre-k is the same (for schools that have that) plus they have an aid (pre-k requires that there be TWO adults in the classroom at all times).

this was about two years ago when i was subbing alot locally...it might have changed but i doubt it. older kids had a few more kids, but never as much as 30. this was elementary.