3rd update in post #37 and 504 question: So tired of dealing with the school system

[JustMe]

See post 37 for 3rd update and 504 question
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Update: I met with dd's therapist today. She is more than happy to attend a meeting wit the teacher. The question is should I even bother doing that for this year (school's out mid-June) or should I wait until next year? Would you request that anyone else be there besides the teacher? What issues would you want to be addressed specifically and how? I am not sure who would "run" the meeting if I am the one who asks for it. I would be fine running it, but also dont think thats how things usually go at schools, or this school anyway.

I have not heard back from my friend whose a school counselor about the 504 and other things. Several other people have told me that its very hard to get a 504 since then which is what I had thought to be the case. I told her therapist about my friend's recommendation and she agreed it would be great for dd to have a 504, so hopefully she would do whatever she needed, although we did not have time to get into that specific discussion today.

I also have put us on the wait list for an alternative public school that is very family friendly and concerned with individual child learning and growth. We are #15 on the wait list, but there are only 147 slots in the whole school so we will see.

Thanks for your support and suggestions. They mean so much as I feel very alone.



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Dear School system employees who I have had this experience with.

I am not an idiot. Please stop treating me like one. I also am not interested in making your job harder, and I do understand that your job is very difficult. Still, it would really help if you would let me give some input on what will help dd, and if you agree to what I suggest, that you don't just change all the rules and stop doing it without having any conversation with me because *you* didn't think she needed those things anymore, despite the fact that the day before I let you know that some of those behaviors/issues were becoming problematic again (translation her behaviors were not bothering you and they are not behaviors that you know how to identify).

To everyone else,

I am obviously very angry and worn out. It is so difficult have a child who has special needs that are not obvious (or at least that its not always obvious to people to connect the dots between certain behaviors and certain issues) and not recognized by the school system, yet still are special needs...and, yes, I know how strapped the schools are with all the budget cuts and everything...this is not about that kind of accommodation.

[JTsMom]

:hug: Wouldn't it be amazing if they would just listen?! You know- figure that as her mother, you might actually know what you're talking about? Crazy talk, I know. ;)

[catroddick]

Better yet- they b*tch when parents don't get involved, and they ignore the ones that do!

[SammyeGail]

I hear you! I am very lucky I got my school system to contract out with an autism school, I know the Director over Special Ed had a battle with the city attorney, still does. Here the city schools contract most of special needs to the county schools, I was the first to get new contract, hopefully to open a new door for others children DX'd with autism, if they live in the city limits. Otherwise if you are in the county you get stuck in the county's on size fits all program.

If you have an IEP that says your child is supposed to be getting XYZ, then they stop it, set up a meeting asap and bring it to the directors attention. If its not in DD's IEP, make an appt for a new IEP. Thats what I stressed at ours, its an Individual Education Program, my child is an Individual.

As for my other DS's speech, the Speech Therapist called and canceled 65% of the time. I then had to cancel 2 weeks in a row because I had a virus then DS got it, she filled the spot with another child. I called her each time, it severely ticked me off, he doesn't even get speech anymore, nothing is open and he really needs it. That is thru the city school system.

I know how irritating it is, when I asked for help for my DS with speech delay who showed signs of AD/HD, she said they had nothing. She offered to send him to my other sons autism school. I was put off at first, but they have one-on-one teachers, deal with all types of personalities, he's been going 2 days a week and done wonderfully there. The director of the autism school really likes having a more 'typical' child there, he's great for the other kids to interact with and he loves it there.

I don't know what we would have done with out that contract, we got a letter from my pedi, I actually wrote the letter and he signed it, stating what DS needed, proved that the city/county couldn't provide the services. It was a big pedi office, all 16 doctors actually met to discuss DS, his autism DX and his needs, I just had to phrase the letter that he needed the services, the pedi had that they were highly recommended. He was happy to have me write the letter, I know a pedi/nurse don't have time to write and re-write letters, lol. Maybe you have a pedi who is helpful?

It was the most draining time of my life, not 2 weeks after I was informed the contract was approved my mom passed away, then DS started his new school a week after her service.

Good luck and be strong, I know how hard it is :hug:

[JustMe]

Thank you everyone. I feel literally sick over dealing with this again and again. I think its hardest when I think a person is actually taking what I have to say into account (which doesnt happen that much), but it seems like as soon as I turn my back they are proving that they are not doing that at all. I know it could just be forgetfulness, but I really believe it most of the cases its happened its because they were just humoring me and hoped I eventually wouldnt notice when they did what they wanted.

A note from the ped is not really a good option. We really don't see our ped much, although I like her, she is not aware of this issue and, honestly I really don't want to take the chance of any info or labels going into her health records that could later effect insurance. Dd does have a therapist, but I really don't know that the school would listen to her anymore than they do to me (I think they'd probably do their humoring thing). Besides, I'm a therapist and see how far that gets me with them.

[gatorsmom]

ugh. Big hugs because I understand completely how frustrating it is when school staff just poo-poo you.

I was going to suggest that you just stay on those school employees like white on rice. Whether you email or call or send notes in DD's school bag- DO IT FREQUENTLY. And frankly, I'd be very to the point. For example I'd send emails like this: "Dear Mrs. Smith, we really appreciate all your efforts with DD. As we discussed a few days ago, we really need for you to warn DD about 5-10 minutes beforehand that you'll be ending an activity. This helps her transition better from one activity to another. DD has told me this isn't alway happening. I appreciate all your help with this matter. Sincerely, Mrs. X." And then 3 days later, "Dear Mrs. Smith, DD has been doing so much better since you started giving her 10 minute warnings. Thank you so much for all you do. Sincerely, Mrs. X" And then, "Dear Mrs. Smith, DD really enjoyed that chapter you did on dinosaurs. It was a favorite of hers. By the way, DD has been showing signs of such n such. I can't stress enough how important it is that all authority figures give her the 10 minute warning. According to her therapist, it will really improve her ability to adjust to a new activity. Is there some way we can make it easier for you to remember to give the 10 minute warning?"

It may seem like overkill or annoying, but I think if you are VERY nice and keep on this school employee(s), they'll understand the importance of their actions. (btw, I picked the "10 minute warning" because a friend of mine has been having that issue repeatedly at her son's school with his teachers. He has a hard time adjusting without a warning. That's the only reason I used that example. I have no idea what your daughter is going through.)

Hope things go better at school.

[bubbaray]

I'm so sorry. :grouphug:

[lalasmama]

:hug: We have similar issues with La and her school. For us, its things that stem from her foster-child time, but since it's not the typical "special needs", they seem blind to the fact that there's anything "different" that needs special handling. :banghead:

[egoldber]

I am so sorry and I so totally and completely feel your pain on both counts. :hug:

[JustMe]

Thank you everyone. The question now is if it would be better at all in a different local public school? Unfortunately, I missed the deadline for our lottery as it truly seemed things were going well enough at that point. Still, I am told that some schools have openings sometimes and additionally there could be the possibility of mid-year transfer next year if there are openings during the year. Dd is awful at transitions (which means they really suck for me as well since I have to support her through them and it is not fun), and we would be giving up a dual immersion (Span/Eng) program.

I am pretty convinced that schools will not *get* her issues, as this is just not anything they have training on. I am pretty knowledgeable about the options, and I really don't think any of them have a significant understanding of what goes on for dd. Just not sure if any other school would treat me more respectfully at least to the point where I don't feel I am either being patronized or ignored. I do always try to ask for things that I feel are "doable", although of course I am not in their shoes...my point is I am not oblivious to what they have to deal with, that there are many other kids to take into consideration, etc. This is not just about *me*, but if a school would take my input more seriously, there would be a lot more progress for dd.

Dd's school does have way more kids with challenging behaviors and probably way less parents that would choose to give input than the average school...so, this is why I wonder if another school could do better. Unfortunately, its not something I can just ask a school...well, I can ask, but I think any school including the one she's currently at would say they take parent input into consideration, want parent input/involvement, etc.

[egoldber]

Does your DD have a 504 or an IEP? We just got a 504 and while I don't know that it will make any difference, I feel like I now have a much better understanding of the personalities of the various players at the school.


The question now is if it would be better at all in a different local public school?

Well, isn't that the question? Sigh. We kept older DD at her school this year because we didn't want to face the transition issues, but next year we are moving her in the hope of a better fit. I just can't keep hoping things will get better at her current school when they never do. At some point the risk of trying something new is outweighed by the negatives of the current situation and that's where we are right now.

We are already planning with her therapist for next fall to be hard. We are going to do some intensive support for her in the couple weeks before the school year and in the first month or so of the new year. And jsut for giggles, her therapist told me last night that she is going to have a baby in September. So we need to figure out if we want to transition to a new therapist (then or now) or try and do without her for about 6-8 weeks in the fall. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

Why is it never easy?

[sste]

Sending you lots of hugs and support!

I have zero school-age child experience but I guess I would ask myself whether there is something different about the new school you would plan to switch to - - better admin, better services, better teachers at least for the next few grades, different philosophy. As long as there is something different I would consider a move but I wouldn't just want to make a building switch, kwim?

As for how to handle the school officials/teachers, I am just awful if I get upset. I let dh, who truly missed his calling in diplomatic affairs, deal with as much as possible in terms of human interaction! I know that isn't an option for you in the spouse dept but maybe if your DD's therapist is willing she is can be part of the "team" working to address these issues.

The other thing I find helpful is to recognize that people love their own ideas (at least I do :) ). So, I sometime ask a teacher/provider "What do you think is the best way to handle this." I let them go on and prompt them for more suggestions UNTIL they get to the suggestion I had in mind all along. I then interrupt with an enthusiastic, "What a great idea. That is an incredibly helpful suggestion. Can we try your idea for the next month?"

I don't know if that is unfairly manipulative but it seems to work . . .

[JTsMom]

Do you have any type of local special needs support group? If so, maybe you can talk to some parents about what their own schools are like, and feel out if yours is typical or not. I think just stopping in and asking some questions might give you a feeling for what things are like there as well. Maybe ask some, "What would happen if..." type questions. Try to get specifics. I'm sure they will all say they'll work with parents, etc., but you might be able to see a difference in enthusiasm, kwim?

In my very limited experience, different schools do handle things very, very differently. I'm betting at the schools where parents are more involved, the school is more used to handling these types of requests, b/c if they don't, they're going to hear about it. I think it's at least worth looking into, and seeing what type of vibe you get.

[JustMe]

Does your DD have a 504 or an IEP? We just got a 504 and while I don't know that it will make any difference, I feel like I now have a much better understanding of the personalities of the various players at the school.

We are already planning with her therapist for next fall to be hard.
Why is it never easy?


Dd does not have either an IEP or 504. she would definitely not qualify for an IEP. My question with the 504 is, does it need to be impacting learning or the classroom environment? Dd is on grade level (although I am pretty sure she would be doing much better if things were different, but that's not my biggest problem by any means). Her classroom behavior is pretty manageable, at least in there with the other challenging kids in her class. Her problems are occuring in the hallways, at recess, etc, but they are anxiety related, so if her anxiety was managed better during class less of the other stuff would be happening.

Good luck in the Fall (and I know good luck is not enough). I know that will be tough for you all when your dd changes schools and her therapist is not available.

[JustMe]

Sending you lots of hugs and support!

I I know that isn't an option for you in the spouse dept but maybe if your DD's therapist is willing she is can be part of the "team" working to address these issues.

The other thing I find helpful is to recognize that people love their own ideas (at least I do :) ). So, I sometime ask a teacher/provider "What do you think is the best way to handle this." I let them go on and prompt them for more suggestions UNTIL they get to the suggestion I had in mind all along. I then interrupt with an enthusiastic, "What a great idea. That is an incredibly helpful suggestion. Can we try your idea for the next month?"

I don't know if that is unfairly manipulative but it seems to work . . .

I have a meeting with dd's therapist tomorrow, and will be asking her if she can help. If she can't I may have to seriously look at that issue as well, although she is great in many other ways.

Doesn't sound too manipulative to me...not anywhere near what they would do to me, anyway!

[JustMe]

Do you have any type of local special needs support group? If so, maybe you can talk to some parents about what their own schools are like, and feel out if yours is typical or not. I think just stopping in and asking some questions might give you a feeling for what things are like there as well. Maybe ask some, "What would happen if..." type questions. Try to get specifics. I'm sure they will all say they'll work with parents, etc., but you might be able to see a difference in enthusiasm, kwim?

In my very limited experience, different schools do handle things very, very differently. I'm betting at the schools where parents are more involved, the school is more used to handling these types of requests, b/c if they don't, they're going to hear about it. I think it's at least worth looking into, and seeing what type of vibe you get.


Talking with a special needs group to ask about schools is a good idea. I'm also a member of our local adoption group, which is a lot of what this is related to.

I actually just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is a public high school counselor and a fellow adoptive mom. I guess there is some kind of family liason in the district and she is going to talk to that person for me. I knew there was a family liason person, but don;t know if she can be helpful, because I dont know if she knows about these issues either...but, my friend will talk to her and explain them to her and since she's an adoptive mom I think she'll do a great job...so we will see what happens. My friend said, and I agree, that my daughter needs advocacy and it would be really great if that entire job was not on me as the school doesnt get it and that is creating the problems.

I would love to change school's right now, even just so I would know if it is possible to do better...the problem is, with the lottery being over, there are not many options yet so even if I want to change it might be best to hang in for another year and then do the lottery....I have not decided that for sure, but for now I will wait to hear back from my friend.

[egoldber]

Any child with a diagnosis qualifies for a 504. If the accommodations requested don't require any money, schools are generally very willing to do them. My DD is above grade level in her school work, it is for "social and emotional reasons impacting her in and out of the classroom".


Her problems are occuring in the hallways, at recess, etc, but they are anxiety related, so if her anxiety was managed better during class less of the other stuff would be happening.

My DD's 504 is for anxiety. I needed a letter from her therapist saying she had anxiety and I think the fact that she is currently in therapy made it a non-issue to get the 504. The hardest part was getting the meetings scheduled.

Sitting down to contruct the 504, I realized that the teacher has NO idea what anxiety is or how it manifests in kids. So it allowed me (and the school counselor) to educate the teacher on what anxiety is and what it means. I think the conversation was very helpful. I still don't think the teacher really "gets" it, but having this on paper gives me access to the classroom and to arrange things to better accommodate her. I really want it more for next year than for this year since the year is really almost over.

[JustMe]

Any child with a diagnosis qualifies for a 504. If the accommodations requested don't require any money, schools are generally very willing to do them. My DD is above grade level in her school work, it is for "social and emotional reasons impacting her in and out of the classroom".



My DD's 504 is for anxiety. I needed a letter from her therapist saying she had anxiety and I think the fact that she is currently in therapy made it a non-issue to get the 504. The hardest part was getting the meetings scheduled.

Sitting down to contruct the 504, I realized that the teacher has NO idea what anxiety is or how it manifests in kids. So it allowed me (and the school counselor) to educate the teacher on what anxiety is and what it means. I think the conversation was very helpful. I still don't think the teacher really "gets" it, but having this on paper gives me access to the classroom and to arrange things to better accommodate her. I really want it more for next year than for this year since the year is really almost over.


Thank you, that is very helpful. I agree that having it on paper makes a huge difference. Dd's teacher actually did let me sit down and explain things to her as I see them, and I thought she got it, but I was wrong...this is what I believe leads to her agreeing to things, but then just revoking them when she sees fit..she thinks she understands this and she does not.

I agree at this point I am thinking a lot more about next year than this year.

[JTsMom]

Talking with a special needs group to ask about schools is a good idea. I'm also a member of our local adoption group, which is a lot of what this is related to.

I actually just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is a public high school counselor and a fellow adoptive mom. I guess there is some kind of family liason in the district and she is going to talk to that person for me. I knew there was a family liason person, but don;t know if she can be helpful, because I dont know if she knows about these issues either...but, my friend will talk to her and explain them to her and since she's an adoptive mom I think she'll do a great job...so we will see what happens. My friend said, and I agree, that my daughter needs advocacy and it would be really great if that entire job was not on me as the school doesnt get it and that is creating the problems.

I would love to change school's right now, even just so I would know if it is possible to do better...the problem is, with the lottery being over, there are not many options yet so even if I want to change it might be best to hang in for another year and then do the lottery....I have not decided that for sure, but for now I will wait to hear back from my friend.

That sounds great! If nothing else, maybe she'll be able to put you in touch with more people who can help.

[egoldber]

Yes, talking to the group about school options may give you some insight.

We only have one other choice (and many people don't have any choice) so for me it's a much easier decision. I can also undo my decision easily if I think it isn't working out. I don't know what I would do with a lottery! That would make me :dizzy:

[SammyeGail]

Talking with a special needs group to ask about schools is a good idea. I'm also a member of our local adoption group, which is a lot of what this is related to.

I actually just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is a public high school counselor and a fellow adoptive mom. I guess there is some kind of family liason in the district and she is going to talk to that person for me. I knew there was a family liason person, but don;t know if she can be helpful, because I dont know if she knows about these issues either...but, my friend will talk to her and explain them to her and since she's an adoptive mom I think she'll do a great job...so we will see what happens. My friend said, and I agree, that my daughter needs advocacy and it would be really great if that entire job was not on me as the school doesnt get it and that is creating the problems.

I would love to change school's right now, even just so I would know if it is possible to do better...the problem is, with the lottery being over, there are not many options yet so even if I want to change it might be best to hang in for another year and then do the lottery....I have not decided that for sure, but for now I will wait to hear back from my friend.

Thats great that you are getting that contact!! I am so happy for you! A therapist (ABA-for autism) that was seeing Jonas thru EI was at our first and second IEP meetings and did help us. DH is an Environmental, Health and Safety Mngr at an industrial plant, he's never done it for special needs/education, but he can interpret state code like its nothing! It was hilarious seeing the look on the lady's face who is over the county's special ed program when my DH would correct her or call her out on things (he had the state code with him), I thought fire was going to shoot out of her eyes.

I wish DH had the time to help other families in this rural county understand the state code but he's just swamped. We're doing good to take care of ourselves :dizzy:

I hope next year brings you lots of new opportunities!!

egoldber, I remember having severe panic attacks in 4th grade and always having anxiety, I just didn't know what it was then. I had the best 4th grade teacher, she was so wonderful to me. I just want to send out a huge :hug: to you and your DD.

[JustMe]

Update and more questions in original post.

[egoldber]

FWIW, older DD's therapist called her teacher and they had a long talk on the phone. They have never met in person, but the conversation, I think, went a long way toward the teacher realizing that this was not me being a hyper-parenting, overprotective mom, KWIM? Also, I think the teacher was more honest with their concerns because the conversation did not take place in front of me and DH.

Our therapist told me that a 504 would be very easy to get as long as there is a diagnosis, and she was absolutely correct. None of the accommodations we are asking for cost the school any money and no one in the 504 meeting gave any indication that getting a 504 would be any problem at all.

[JustMe]

Thanks, none of the accommodations I want cost money either...just flexibility!

[purpleeyes]

Update and more questions in original post.

I would have a meeting this year, to get the ball rolling. IME, these things can take time and it would be so helpful to have something in place before the year begins.

GL!!!

[trales]

As a former teacher I would get the 504, it will help her, you, her teachers, follow her from teacher to teacher. They can be a great asset for both students and teachers.

With a therapist and a diagnosis it should not be hard to get. It will take you time and prodding the school. But it will be worth it.

[JustMe]

Thanks, I am just now hoping we can get the 504. I am really feeling depressed. This last interaction with her teacher was the "straw that broke the camel's back", so to speak. I so wish we could get out of the school, like I said, I don't know if it would be better elsewhere but I need to feel like I tried...I somehow do think it would be a little better in the alternative school that prides itself on working with families if only because there would be more communication. I really feel so icky right now and don't know how to make myself feel better.

[sariana]

I would have a meeting this year, to get the ball rolling. IME, these things can take time and it would be so helpful to have something in place before the year begins.

:yeahthat:

It doesn't hurt to get things started now.

[kransden]

Here are 3 sites that might help you with the difference with a 504 and and IEP.
Basically, section 504 is designed to guarantee that children with disabilities will not be discriminated against. Like a wheelchair ramp. They may not need an IEP.

An IEP (Individualized Education Program) Children with delayed skills or other disabilities might be eligible for special services that provide individualized education programs in public schools, free of charge to families.


I would look them in this order.
http://www.nldline.com/iep_vs_504.htm
http://www.ed-center.com/504
http://www.slc.sevier.org/iepv504.htm

[JustMe]

So, we have a local agency that advocates/mediates for parents with kids with special needs/disabilities and the school district. I have referred other parents to this agency as a professional, and have always been very impressed with their work. I called them today just to see if they had any suggestions. I thought the child had to have an IEP to qualify for their services, but it turns out this is not the case and we quailify for their services!!!!! So, in 2 weeks I should be hearing from my case manager/advocate!!!!!! I cannot tell you how much this has helped in helping me feel less powerless and less alone!!!! It is so wonderful to know I will have an advocate and will not be the *only* advocate for dd. Additionally, dd has never really qualified for any special services so it feels so wonderful to qualify for something we need this badly!

[egoldber]

Wonderful news!!! I hope they are able to get your DD the help she needs. :hug:

[JTsMom]

That's wonderful news! Congratulations! :cheerleader1:

[trales]

That is awesome. Good for you.

[Carrots]

This is very good news. I am happy you have someone else on your side.

My mom (a teacher) had to fight for my accomodations throughout my schooling, until I could do it myself. I have auditory processing issues.

[purpleeyes]

So, we have a local agency that advocates/mediates for parents with kids with special needs/disabilities and the school district. I have referred other parents to this agency as a professional, and have always been very impressed with their work. I called them today just to see if they had any suggestions. I thought the child had to have an IEP to qualify for their services, but it turns out this is not the case and we quailify for their services!!!!! So, in 2 weeks I should be hearing from my case manager/advocate!!!!!! I cannot tell you how much this has helped in helping me feel less powerless and less alone!!!! It is so wonderful to know I will have an advocate and will not be the *only* advocate for dd. Additionally, dd has never really qualified for any special services so it feels so wonderful to qualify for something we need this badly!

That's great news! Yay!!

[JustMe]

Thanks everyone. In another week and a half, I should be getting assigned my case manager/advocate, yea!!! Friday morning I volunteer in the school, which I am not looking forward to at all based on my last interaction with the teacher, but know I need to both because it helps dd to see me there and to keep an eye on things!

[JustMe]

Good news is I got to meet with the advocacy agency last week. Of course, it was a wonderful experience because I felt safe to talk about how awful everything has felt. The woman seemed confident dd would be eligible for a 504, but I am wondering as dd's mental health diagnosis is actually the most mild one you can have....it was something the therapist and I agreed upon as I dont want her to have more of a diagnosis for insurance reasons and still feel that way. Does anyone know what they can say "no" to? I did a search and did not find anything conclusive.

Today I received an e-mail from the advocate (actually case manager, just seems like an advocate to me...or maybe tha is my wish) saying the school is requesting proof of the qualifying diagnosis. I am not sure what kind of documentation/proof they want, so I e-mailed back asking....but I am now mostly worried that they won't qualify her and things will be even worse with the school. Sigh.

Thanks,

[egoldber]

I sent you a PM.

[snowbunnies300]

I'm sure that your advocate will have more information to assist you than I can provide. Just keep an open line of communication with her.

I am sorry you are having to deal with this. These decisions are never easy. Take care and :grouphug:

[JustMe]

Thanks, I sure hope so.

[ha98ed14]

I have no BTDT, but my H teaches 4th grade and there ARE students with IEPs (Individualized Education Plans) for behavior issues that do NOT have a formal diagnosis per se. (Autism, ADD, etc.) Having that IEP means that the teacher MUST give them the accommodations laid out in the IEP. IEPs are reviewed every year and that is absolutely the most appropriate time to bring your DD's therapist. You wpould meet with the classtoom teacher, school psychologist for the school district, principal, you, the therapist, and anyone else you want to bring who you think has insight into DD's needs and behaviors. Get a letter from the psychologist saying DD needs and IEP and go to the school and ASK for an IEP meeting. FWIW, if you can get DD an IEP, the rules then favor you. The district and the teacher must make appropriate accommodation so your DD can get an education. I just throw that out there because DH teaches public school in CA and he has to make whatever accommodations are in the IEP and he does and tries to balance it with the needs of the rest of the class. It's a tough line to walk, but it can be done.

ETA: I didn't read the entire thread so if this has already been suggested, please excuse.