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View Full Version : It's a 6yo's Lie-o-rama and Smack-down! Advice?



lalasmama
05-04-2010, 12:04 AM
Off and on for about 2 months, La is going through lying phase, peppered with hitting me when she gets mad at being in trouble or confronted.

Today was typical. The scene: At daycare's house (a friend with a daughter 8 months older than La, and 2 sons, one several years older, one 11 month old). Drop-off time. Heading out the door. She gives me a hug, and a kiss, then as I open the door, she shoves me. I take her arms and ask if there was a reason that she just pushed me. She says "You didn't give me a kiss and I want one." I told her pushing isn't okay, and that she just had a hug and a kiss, and doesn't get extras if she's going to be using her hands to hurt me with shoving. I tell her I love her, finish my thought with daycare mom, tell La bye, and leave.

I get back to pick La up at normal time (5:45pm). She announces "I had a good day!". She was interupting daycare mom ("DCM") telling me about her day.

According to daycare provider:
La: I don't like my mom!
Daycare mom: We don't talk like that here.
L: I didn't say anything outloud, I said it in my head and can say anything I want to in my head!
DCM: You said it out loud, and we don't say mean things here.
L: I didn't say anything mean! I said I like my mom! You are lying! You don't know anything!

[La has the biggest "how dare you tell my mom that" snarl on her face as DCM continues to talk to me. Its the same face she gets when I catch her lying or when she's otherwise mad at me.]

DCM says that all day La would mess with things she shouldn't be, and when DCM asked her to stop (told her to stop, told her to move away, reminded her of some rule), La would get huffy and say "I didn't do it! I wasn't doing anything!"

She's also got a smack-down going on with me whenever she doesn't like what I'm telling her. "La, you need to hold my hand." "No!" [or pulling away]. "If you do not hold my hand, I will carry you like a baby. Big Kids hold hands." If she pulls away and I have to pick her up, she's hitting me.... Or if I correct her behavior about something and she doesn't like it, she hits me.

Nothing new/different that I can come up with. Everything at home is generally good, and definately "typical". She's not seeing people any more or less, or different friends from regular. Everything at school and daycare is the same too. No new changes in the routine. No extra special things lately to get into a "spoiled" trap (like birthday or such).

We don't/can't spank because I'm legally still a foster parent, and would lose my license. We've tried taking toys away, to the point of literally having no toys for 2 days because she couldn't behave in the bathtub for 20 minutes to earn a toy back. She couldn't care less about being grounded to her bed. Doesn't seem upset by hearing that she lost McDonalds for the snotty mouth today.

She verbalizes that she understands that doing ABC results in losing XYZ. She'll tell me that she doesn't care about losing a trip to Chuck E Cheese or such for hitting/being rude. She can come up with rude examples. She says she wouldn't like me saying the rude things to her. And yet, she still lies, talks rude/mouthy to adults, and has this smack-down going on me. Oh, and then she demands that I MUST TAKE HER TO CHUCK E CHEESE NOW because she wasn't rude/sassy/hitting. Or the alternative-- "I WON'T STOP UNTIL YOU DO WHAT I TELL YOU! NOW TAKE ME TO CHUCK E CHEESE RIGHT NOW! OR I WILL NEVER STOP THIS SCREAMING!" When she does that, she's in her room with the door closed, so I whisper "whatever baby girl, keep dreaming" and chuckle.

UGH! I feel like my child has been possessed!

Any advise??

sariana
05-04-2010, 12:28 AM
Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry.

The only thing I can think of: Is she starting school next year? Is that possibly weighing on her mind? Even if you haven't talked about it at home, is it possible DCM has mentioned it?

Okay, sorry, I reread and saw that you mentioned school. Is she moving from preschool to K, or from 1/2 day to full? Maybe I'm grasping at straws...

Also, my allergies have been making me miserable lately. If I were 6 and experiencing these symptoms, I likely would not know (or care) what was going on. I would just be miserable, which would make me grumpy. Has your weather changed lately?

Otherwise it sounds as though she is testing the boundaries, maybe trying to figure out how she fits into the family. She is trying to take the power wherever she can. Is there a way you can make her feel more empowered? I know she hasn't earned a reward, but if you could do dinner out somewhere besides CEC or McDonald's, just a basic restaurant, and let her choose, maybe she would feel that she has some control over something.

Good luck. Hopefully it is just a (very short!) phase.

lalasmama
05-04-2010, 01:09 AM
I try very hard to give her choices to keep her feeling "in control" of some things... She picks out her clothes, what carseat she rides in (2 in the car), flavor of breakfast shake, bath before/after dinner, pajamas, often what we have to eat for dinner... I will start looking for more choices, though, because increasing choices has helped in the past.

She's going from full day kindy to full day 1st grade, and generally seems excited about it. She got mad at me when she told me she was going to go to first grade ("NOW!" at 8pm on Sunday), and that they "WILL" open the school for her! I told her that her first grade doesn't start until August, and that that's the rule for every kid at her school.... She hasn't seemed to have allergies developing--no itchy eyes, sneezing, compaining of headaches, runny nose, or anything like that. I did consider that, because oohhh man is the pollen giving me a sinus headache!

We're on a restaurant ban right now, enacted when we went to 3 different family restaurants on 3 different occasions, and not once did I get to eat my meal. Coloring on the table, throwing books, spitting.... (Did I really used to take her out and get compliments on her behavior at restaurants when she was 3 and 4?? Seems like a dream now!)

It's phases like this that make me believe she will be an only child!

TwinFoxes
05-04-2010, 07:47 AM
Could it be a jealousy thing? I'm really bad at keeping track of posters, but I remember your post re SO and the hot tub, and you also mentioned that you are in the process of fostering a child. Could she be acting up because she feels you're giving your attention elsewhere? (I'm not saying you are BtW, but I'm not six! :) ) I don't know how long you've been in a relationship, maybe she's just starting to realize he's not going to go away any time soon, and it bugs her. And a new kid will definitely mean she'll have to share your attention.

Just a thought from out here in internet land. :wavey:

pinkmomagain
05-04-2010, 08:30 AM
Could it be a jealousy thing? I'm really bad at keeping track of posters, but I remember your post re SO and the hot tub, and you also mentioned that you are in the process of fostering a child. Could she be acting up because she feels you're giving your attention elsewhere? (I'm not saying you are BtW, but I'm not six! :) ) I don't know how long you've been in a relationship, maybe she's just starting to realize he's not going to go away any time soon, and it bugs her. And a new kid will definitely mean she'll have to share your attention.

Yeah, I'm not aware of your circumstances, but when I was reading I was thinking that maybe there's been something you've been (reasonably) distracted with....maybe you were sick, family visiting, or any the above mentions, which is causing her some anxiety and therefore she is acting out.

Hoping you get to the bottom of it soon! Sounds exasperating! Good Luck!

m448
05-04-2010, 08:49 AM
re:the lying, she's still in the words as magic stage

http://aolff.org/index.php?s=lying

sarahsthreads
05-04-2010, 09:51 AM
I wish I could offer you advice, but my 5.5 year old is doing the same stuff. It's making me crazy.

I can't think of many more places I can offer choices or control either. But the hitting, sassy mouth, constant arguing, threats (well, those are often funny: "I'm going to my room and I'm never, ever coming out until I'm a hundred years old!")...it's getting old, and fast.

So, sympathy and commiseration, at least, from me!

Sarah :)

m448
05-04-2010, 10:09 AM
There's really nothing you can do to parent them out of these age typical behaviors. You can remain consistent (which you did by letting her know it's not okay to hurt you) but mostly it's remain consistent and keep your cool. Harder said than done I know.

Sarah oh the mouthiness. I do a lot of scripting. Try again is on constant looparounx here or I'll come right out and give him words, "thank you mommy for this delicious dinner you cooked for me."

daisymommy
05-04-2010, 10:44 AM
m448--what an AWESOME website! I just bookmarked it and can't stop reading!

Lala's mom...I wish I had the answers, but this sounds like my kids somedays; we're still working on it!

stillplayswithbarbies
05-04-2010, 10:57 AM
I wonder if she is testing you? Trying to find out just how bad/mean/awful she has to be before you will send her away. (in her thinking) What happens if you respond with extra love and snuggles and "time in" instead of "time out"?

I wonder if this has to do with loss of her first parents? Have you read any adoption books about attachment?

You might find some good advice on the mothering.com adoption forum. Often what is advised for discipline doesn't work with kids who are adopted or have suffered loss of their first family. Sometimes it works the opposite of how it works with biological kids an makes the behavior worse.

egoldber
05-04-2010, 11:01 AM
I was thinking similar to Karen. I *think* that you are in a foster to adopt situation with her?

I know you posted elsewhere about a re-certification visit coming up. Could she be stressed or anxious about that? Or even if she feels your stress if she doesn't know about it. I know my kids totally feed off of my mood about these things and when I am stressed it's like they are wolves circling in for the kill. :p

lalasmama
05-04-2010, 10:34 PM
She is the foster child (ugh, sometimes I hate saying that after 3 years!), and doesn't know about the recert visit. Wonderfully, its going to happen when she's not here, since its also about her guardianship :yay: <-- I hope that's me in 24 hours! (Visit is while she's at school tomorrow.).... Her attitude of late has made me actually turn down adding more kids to the mix, because the last thing I need is her hitting a new child!

I was thinking that the SO issue could have something to do with it, but things haven't differed much there. Interestingly, when we had our little seperation 2 months ago, it lasted all of 4 or 5 days, and things were back to "normal". He's still coming over to visit her, still coming to her school functions, still hanging out here like normal. No fights or discord on our side of things... However, I think it may well be that she is realising he's not going away anytime soon, and maybe she's trying to test him. Oddly, though, it doesn't happen as much when he is here (maintaining seperate households at this point, as we always have, due to our beliefs).

The jealousy thought is interesting. She still gets jealous when I am around and paying attention to any other child. Visiting my best friend's house and holding my "nephew" (5 months old) is a sure fire bet for several bad days! We haven't seen the baby since Easter, and she actually behaved after seeing them!

Her first parents are in her life the same as always; no changes for about 20 months. (At that point, visitation had went from weekly to monthly, and behavior improved significantly!)... still sees her 1st mother. I have noticed her calling her by name more when she talks about her-- "Sally" instead of "Mommy Sally" like it was when she was younger. Maybe its something that she's trying to work out there, and can't figure out how to put it into words, so she's just Princess Crankypants 24/7 because of it.

We have specific "time in" time; actually every Saturday afternoon is "mom and kid" time--crafts, park, walks, shopping, riding the light rail train (odd, but she begs for it!). I don't do "time in"/snuggles when she's hit me, for two reasons. 1) She hits me more. 2) The counselor pointed out that at 6yo, she's getting attention for bad behavior, and why make good choices/behave if she can act rude and mouthy and yell and scream and hit *and* get *attention* for it all! Fair point. Her meltdowns went significantly down when I stopped paying attention to them.

I try to do modeling/practicing in advance of situations, and even just randomly. Sometimes we do play "role reversal" so that she can be the mommy, and I get to be the child, so she can "teach" me how to make better choices, or say nicer things.

I remember hearing about "words as magic", but I always took that more as "I say mommy's going to go away, and she will!" not purposely saying mean things or hitting. Maybe I'm just not taking that idea for enough, but this seems willfull/obvious versus wishful.

I think the big thing with the lying is that she's doing it over things that were witnessed--playing with the umbrella that she knows isn't to play with, throwing the ponies to knock things off the shelf, saying rude things, and then screaming and hitting when she's got in trouble for it....

The good news is that she is now in bed. Granted, she screamed for 3 minutes because she couldn't find her jammies (on her bed, where they have been kept nightly for 3 years)... but she's tucked in and quiet now.

Off to have fun mopping and vacuuming... and crap, the cat just puked. UGH.

belovedgandp
05-05-2010, 12:15 AM
Not a lot of advice, but sounds just like my 6 YO K student. We definitely have our moments lately. The saying aloud thing could totally have been scripted by us.

stillplayswithbarbies
05-05-2010, 02:28 PM
2) The counselor pointed out that at 6yo, she's getting attention for bad behavior, and why make good choices/behave if she can act rude and mouthy and yell and scream and hit *and* get *attention* for it all! Fair point. Her meltdowns went significantly down when I stopped paying attention to them.

Does this counselor have experience with adoption issues? and/or attachment issues? is she willing to do some research on it?

m448
05-05-2010, 02:35 PM
The words as magic is actually just them wanting to undo what they've done and know was wrong. The mouthiness is totally six related and I suggest you read Your Six Year Old so you can see her developmental status and know what she will mature out of. It also helps not to engage.

However I agree with SPWB - does this counselor have experience with adoption/attachment issues? Since she still has contact with her "first mom" she will understandably test attachment limits far more than a typical child and a typical child still tests attachment boundaries.

JustMe
05-05-2010, 08:04 PM
I have stayed silent thinking you might not find what I would have to say useful as well, but I agree that its very possible there are some attachment/adoption issues at work here as well. Are you happy with the therapist your daughter sees? If so, that's great. If not you might want to consider changing to someone with specific experience in that area (and I don't mean just because DHS refers to them or considers them qualified...I beg to differ with DHS on some of the therapist they conisder knowledgeable about adoption/attachment). I am pretty sure there are therapists with specific advanced knowledge/training in your area.

lalasmama
05-05-2010, 09:31 PM
I have stayed silent thinking you might not find what I would have to say useful as well, but I agree that its very possible there are some attachment/adoption issues at work here as well. Are you happy with the therapist your daughter sees? If so, that's great. If not you might want to consider changing to someone with specific experience in that area (and I don't mean just because DHS refers to them or considers them qualified...I beg to differ with DHS on some of the therapist they conisder knowledgeable about adoption/attachment). I am pretty sure there are therapists with specific advanced knowledge/training in your area.

Our in-home counselor has additional foster/adopt training and experience; she's apparently even done some post-grad work with it.... I feel comfortable with her and her thoughts. She's (generally) been spot-on with La's behaviors and what will help them out.

We haven't done regular counseling in a while, because the last time, we spent weeks with her trying to please the counselor with her answers... She'd ask La about something, and La would give the "perfect" answer (one good example: counselor asks La if anyone used to come to her bed when she was little, La tells her "Oh, we can't share beds, [caseworker] said that was not okay" so counselor kind of rewords the question, and La gives her the same answer... and over and over and over again!). She does similar things with many adults, so we have come to the conclusion (seperate from DHS) that she's not ready for regular counseling, or even some of the play therapy kind of things.

As much as I don't like admiting it, I am sure there is likely some adoption-related issues that will need counseling.... just apparently need to wait until she's actually willing to talk/play about it.

JustMe
05-05-2010, 11:47 PM
.
As much as I don't like admiting it, I am sure there is likely some adoption-related issues that will need counseling.... just apparently need to wait until she's actually willing to talk/play about it.


Not necessarily. A good therapist can use play therapy to build relationship/trust and gradually work up to those issues and not confront her directly when she is not ready for that. I am not saying you *should* do that by any means if it doesnt feel right to you, but at least in my case if I waited for my daughter to be ready/willing without gradually steering her in this direction through therapy it would never happen...and with us I know it needs to happen.