How long to let her cry? Update

[kbud]

OK, long story short, dd#2 will be 3 next month. She's never really slept through the night more than a few days at a time. We've tried everything. A bit over a year ago we did the crying out thing. It helped some but she'd cry for 2-3 hours in the middle of the night. She goes to sleep just fine almost every night. We do a bedtime routine w/a bit of rocking/cuddling but she goes into her crib fully awake and falls asleep on her own. She just can't stay asleep. We've tried everything. We did benedryl for about a week last week to try and break the habit. She only woke once the whole week. Now w/out benedryl she's back to waking. So I really think we just need to let her cry and it least give that a fair shot, per her dr. recommendation. He though too can't believe she doesn't stop w/in 30 min. So I'm wondering at what point I should say that's enough. Last night my dh went in after an hour and a half. She's screaming now after being asleep and waking. BTW I know she is fine, not sick etc. What limit if any would you set on the crying?

If you wouldn't let her cry at all please don't make me feel bad. We are really at our wits end and need some sleep. It's effecting all aspects of our life. We have to give everything a try.

UPDATE NIGHT ONE
Thanks for everyone's support and suggestions. You all are great. It is very helpful and I'm considering it all. After she fell back asleep after an hour and a half of crying (I never went in) she slept for 2 1/2 hours, until 1:30. At 2 I went in to change her diaper which was soaked. That's one problem is she pees a lot on nights she doesn't sleep good so she needs to be changed. We use Huggies Goodnights too. I changed her w/little interaction except that it was nighttime and time to be quiet as she was waking us up. She asked to rock, brush her teeth, watch tv but I said no it's bedtime. She asked for a book, I gave her a new one and she laid down w/out any crying and I left. She started crying 10 minutes later. She cried for an hour until about 3am. She was quiet for 20 min. and started crying again. I think for about 30 min. She woke at 5:45 crying. This was tricky as I knew the sun would be coming up soon. Once it was up she would not go back to sleep. She needed some more sleep as she had her first day of preschool today and she would not do well on the amount of sleep she'd had. So I went in and cuddled very briefly and put her back down. She slept until 8:30 when I had to wake her for school.

So I'm not sure what we will do tonight. Still pondering that. I'm ok w/her crying mostly she was screaming for chocolate milk, to watch Mickey Mouse Clubhouse or Caillou, watch tv in my bed, etc. It's balancing the other matters (soaking wet diaper at night, needing to be rested for school, crying waking the 6 year old, luckily it didn't last night and DH who has to work 10 hours and has an hour and half commute). I want to stick with it since we've given it a go so far. We are just beat.

Thanks again, I have a lot to think about now and books to re-read!


DEC UPDATE
Just a quick update in case anyone is interested or finds themselves in a similar circumstance. We stuck to the not going in at night approach (except to check diaper) for a full week with no success.

This fall I realized she was tossing and turning a lot at night even when not crying. I took her to a pediatric sleep clinic and she had a sleep study done 2 weeks ago. She was a trooper having all those wires attached to her. The results showed mild sleep apnea and restless leg syndrome. We just got blood work back today showing her iron level is low which can cause restless leg syndrome. So we are starting iron supplements. I also have scripts for singulair and nasonex for the apnea but I haven't started those yet. I'm hoping just the iron supplement will be enough as the apnea was just barely above normal. I'm so glad we went ahead with the sleep study. I'm hoping sleep filled nights will be in our future since we know what we are dealing with. Thanks for reading our update and the support!

[WolfpackMom]

You mentioned she is in s crib. My sister had this same problem with my nephew-what was making him wake up was moving in his sleep and therefore hitting the sides of the crib because he was running out of space at 22months. Once he was up he ofcourse cried etc because he wanted out. Do you think a big girl bed might help stop her from waking herself up?
Sorry about all this I can't imagine how you are dealing with this every night, I hope everyone gets some sleep soon!

[kbud]

You mentioned she is in s crib. My sister had this same problem with my nephew-what was making him wake up was moving in his sleep and therefore hitting the sides of the crib because he was running out of space at 22months. Once he was up he ofcourse cried etc because he wanted out. Do you think a big girl bed might help stop her from waking herself up?
Sorry about all this I can't imagine how you are dealing with this every night, I hope everyone gets some sleep soon!

You know I have thought about this. She has never slept through the night though so it's not new. Although maybe it would be worth a try and see what happens. We have a twin mattress we could just put on the floor in her room. I haven't wanted to make any major changes w/her (potty training, getting rid of the pacifier, moving to big bed, etc) until we tackle the sleep problem. But you may be on to something. She has a crib tent on so I know she's safe in there and won't roam the house but I can rig a lock on the door too.

Thanks, great suggestion!

[MamaMolly]

What happens when you don't do the cry it out? Do you guys go in and play? Cuddle? Does she eat? I'm trying to get an idea of how you soothe her back to sleep so that I can suggest an alternative (self soothing).

This may be unpopular but what about putting some toys in her bed after she's asleep so she can play quietly instead of cry when she wakes up? You could do it after she's initially asleep.

At almost 3 can you tell her she doesn't have to sleep but she does have to rest? My DD1 falls for that one ;).

[egoldber]

I hate to tell you, but my younger one has only slept through the night a few weeks total in her life. She'll go in a phase where she sleeps through for a few weeks, but then she is up for a few weeks. She goes to sleep just fine on her own and sleeps in her own bed for several hours.

Honestly, I just gave up, because it wasn't worth the lack of sleep. I used to go in to her and sleep in her bed with her. (She's been on a mattress on the floor of her room since she was 18 months.) These days she comes into our bedroom (anywhere between 1 and 5 am) and gets in our bed for the rest of the night.

I don't know why, but she seems to need us at night. My older DD was never like this.

Good luck.

[SunCB]

Not one for crying it out so 0 mins. Go in comfort and then leave again. Yes, she may be doing it for attention but you never know. I thought CIO method was a no no now according to AAP but I could be wrong as I have not looked into lately.

[kbud]

What happens when you don't do the cry it out? Do you guys go in and play? Cuddle? Does she eat? I'm trying to get an idea of how you soothe her back to sleep so that I can suggest an alternative (self soothing).

This may be unpopular but what about putting some toys in her bed after she's asleep so she can play quietly instead of cry when she wakes up? You could do it after she's initially asleep.

At almost 3 can you tell her she doesn't have to sleep but she does have to rest? My DD1 falls for that one ;).

We rock for a bit, rarely back to sleep though. I put her back down awake and she usually asks to go back to bed. Sometimes she falls back asleep right after rocking other times she's up for a couple hours and will start crying for me about 10 minutes after I'm gone. She has some books and stuffed animals in there. She has a night light lady bug she can turn on herself and usually has it on already when I go in to her. She has a sippy cup of water. I've started talking to her about the crying waking us all up and it's time to be quiet at night. I often wonder if she truly tries to go back to sleep but can't since she already has her lady bug on when I go in and she never protests me putting her to bed or back in.

We are going on 45 minutes of crying now.

[Indianamom2]

Not one for crying it out so 0 mins. Go in comfort and then leave again. Yes, she may be doing it for attention but you never know. I thought CIO method was a no no now according to AAP but I could be wrong as I have not looked into lately.

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but this is not helpful at all. In fact, OP specifically asked that if you don't go for CIO, don't make her feel bad. I think this just isn't fair.

kbud,

I know what you're going through, except that we've also had issues with DD#1 falling asleep. In fact, that's our main issue, so I don't know if the issues are close enough or not, but I can at least commisserate.

We have had to do CIO many times. Sometimes absolutely nothing else works, including going in and comforting. When you've tried it all and are at the end of your rope, I think CIO is a legitimate option, especially at the age of three.

I am not at all surprised that your daughter lasts more than 30 minutes. Mine can go WAY longer than that. It is very hard to do, but CIO can work if you're committed to it. Some kids are just much more persistent and stubborn.

I do think it might be worth trying some of the other options mentioned as well, especially the idea of the different bed. I could see how bumping into the crib sides could wake a sensitive sleeper.

I'm not much help, but I do want to let you know that you are not alone and you are not a bad mom for letting your DD CIO. :hug:

[mytwosons]

DS1 used to wake up every night. We would put him down awake and he'sd go to sleep fine, but would wake up every.single.night. Looking back, I think it had something to do with reflux and/or allergies that hadn't yet been diagnosed. Would you consider doing an elimination diet for a couple of weeks to see if things improve?

[tmahanes]

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but this is not helpful at all. In fact, OP specifically asked that if you don't go for CIO, don't make her feel bad. I think this just isn't fair.

:yeahthat: I was thinking the same thing. I don't have any advice but just wanted to :hug: Hope it gets better!

[nov04]

You know I have thought about this. She has never slept through the night though so it's not new. Although maybe it would be worth a try and see what happens. We have a twin mattress we could just put on the floor in her room. I haven't wanted to make any major changes w/her (potty training, getting rid of the pacifier, moving to big bed, etc) until we tackle the sleep problem. But you may be on to something. She has a crib tent on so I know she's safe in there and won't roam the house but I can rig a lock on the door too.

Thanks, great suggestion!

I'm going to second this one. We found dd2 did lots better sleeping when she couldn't hear the crunchiness of the crib mattress and didn't sink into it so much.

GL

[pantone292]

I wonder if there's any chance that your DD could have a genuine sleep cycle problem (as opposed to a behavioral problem). Have you talked to your ped about this? You could get a referral to a sleep center and they could rule out medical issues and get to the root of what's going on. Recently, I looked into sleep centers near where I live and it seems like many larger medical centers have them. (There are also smaller, private sleep centers.)

Have your tried positive reinforcement strategies along the lines of a small reward in the morning if she follows the sleeping rules? (It's important to explain your expectations in a way that she can understand).

In your shoes, I'd want to rule out medical issues before going any further. (And fwiw, I personally don't think that most peds in general practice know all that much about children's sleep.) I'd go for a referral.

[pantone292]

Additionally, I've found the Ferber book to be very helpful. There are sections of the book that are appropriate for children your DD's age. I found it at my local library.

[kristenk]

We went through something similar and it was HORRIBLE. I can definitely sympathize. The only thing that worked for us was letting DD come to our bed when she woke up in the middle of the night. I have no idea how long that lasted, but it lasted waaaay longer than comfortable for any of us.

DD finally got to be an age that we basically talked her into staying in her room. I'm pretty sure bribery was involved, but the details escape me.

I think that if you can figure out what happens to wake her up or why she wakes up, that's the first step.

Does she still nap? Maybe she's getting too much sleep at night??

[SnuggleBuggles]

No ear infections or other health issues? My ds2 always has a rough time when something is brewing.

We'd probably have been like Beth earlier and relented and co-slept b/c some block of sleep is better than broken sleep b/c of crying. 45min, imo, is too long. That would be a limit for me. I'm sorry this is so hard. Sleep issues are rotten.

eta- ds1's preschool director recommended a "snuggle nest"- a place the little one can sleep in your room w/o waking you up. They can come in and sleep in a mattress on the floor, a sleeping bag...something. They get to be close but the rule is no waking you up. It worked for several families I know.
Beth

[DrSally]

I'm so sorry this is happening. I agree with pp's suggestion about a different bed. When DS was 5 months and still in the PNP bassinet in our room, the ped suggested moving to the crib b/c he could be waking himself up hitting the edges. DS was still in his crib at 3 yo, but moved out around 3.5? He tells me now that he remembers hitting the edges.

I think you may be onto something about the lights of the ladybug keeping her up. DS loved his FP aquarium in his crib, but I found I have to keep it turned off for DD, otherwise, it will go on and on, and will keep her awake! Different kids need different levels of stimulation (or lack thereof) at night.

Is she able to verbalize if she's having nightmares or scared of anything? I would want to rule that out.

I agree with pp about positive reinforcement (sticker chart) maybe helping.

[SunCB]

Maybe I'm just in a bad mood, but this is not helpful at all. In fact, OP specifically asked that if you don't go for CIO, don't make her feel bad. I think this just isn't fair.

Opinion asked and given as I stated to go in and comfort along but included I would not do CIO. I did not say (or saying now) the OP was bad for trying CIO as many parents do as I only pointed out she may want to look into if they follow AAP guidelines then CIO might not be what they want to try if. Nor was I trying to make her feel bad since I was stating something she may want to look into especially since listening to your child cry for any length (short or long) is stressing. What I wrote compared to what one could of written I think was very matter of fact/nice.

My nearly 4 yo still gets up in the middle of the night most nights so I know what it is like to have a child fuss/cry/whine still during the night but DH usually gets him back to sleep quickly or he climbs into bed next to me and when I wake up I wonder what time he came over. Now, all this goes on while I have our youngest (just over 1 yo) who is still BFing (on a twin next to our bed) several times a night that I am up with.

[JElaineB]

I don't want to make you feel bad, but it sounds like the method you are using isn't working for you. You might give a different technique a try. We used some that were in The No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers (http://www.amazon.com/No-Cry-Sleep-Solution-Toddlers-Preschoolers/dp/0071444912/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281497149&sr=8-2) when DS was younger. It might be worth a shot.

[kbud]

Thanks for all the support and suggestions!

After an hour and a half (I was about to give up) she suddenly stopped and has been quiet for 30 min. We'll see what the rest of the night holds.

I don't think it's reflux anymore. I'm very familiar with that as dd#1 and had it really bad and also was a terrible sleeper (so we haven't slept in 6 years around here!) she did have some GI issues under a year but nothing in the past 2 years.

Coming to our room just won't work for us. I can't sleep w/a kid in my bed or room. I just can't so we've been very strong about not going that route. I think it's fine for others if it works, just not an option for us.

I'm considering the bed issue. This isn't new though so it's hard to say.

I also wonder about the sleep cycle. She has her 3 year old appt in Sept. So that's part of why I'm going to try everything on this end and if it's not better insist on a sleep evaluation.

I understand that CIO isn't for every one but she is almost 3. She was up there screaming to come and watch tv in my bed so she was fine, just mad. I have tried going and assuring her everything is OK, w/out picking her up etc, but it just makes her more mad.

She's happy during the day so no obvious health issues. She's not been interested in eating though for the past few months. She naps about an 1 and half each day and is up by 3:30. She's usually in bed at night from 8:15 until about 7am and clearly not sleeping the whole time.

Thanks again. I'm going to ponder all the ideas and enjoy the silence for now. I won't do the CIO more than a couple of nights. That's all I'm comfortable with. If there is no improvement by then then I feel I need to get a referral for an evaluation.

[kbud]

I don't want to make you feel bad, but it sounds like the method you are using isn't working for you. You might give a different technique a try. We used some that were in The No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers and Preschoolers (http://www.amazon.com/No-Cry-Sleep-Solution-Toddlers-Preschoolers/dp/0071444912/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281497149&sr=8-2) when DS was younger. It might be worth a shot.

I used to have that book. I used some of the techniques w/my older dd. They were good ideas and I'm pretty sure I've implemented many already before I got to this point but I should get the book again and re-read. I did like it.

[DrSally]

Just wondering if she needs the nap? DS stopped napping at 3yo. Does she have a hard time falling asleep initially, or is it more waking up in the middle of the night? WRT her being "mad" when she's awake, I think the positive reinforcement thing might really be worth a shot. Just use it the same way you would for PTing--one sticker for each night she doesn't cry for you, and a prize after a certain interval (then phase it out once the behavior becomes internalized). I agree, though, that if things don't improve, a sleep study might not be a bad idea. At least you could rule out any medical issues.

[kbud]

Just wondering if she needs the nap? DS stopped napping at 3yo. Does she have a hard time falling asleep initially, or is it more waking up in the middle of the night? WRT her being "mad" when she's awake, I think the positive reinforcement thing might really be worth a shot. Just use it the same way you would for PTing--one sticker for each night she doesn't cry for you, and a prize after a certain interval (then phase it out once the behavior becomes internalized). I agree, though, that if things don't improve, a sleep study might not be a bad idea. At least you could rule out any medical issues.

She seems to fall asleep right away, mostly just waking after she goes to sleep. I do think she needs the nap at least until she sleeps well at night. When she doesn't nap she gets very aggressive, hitting, very rough, body slams us, even biting. When she naps we don't have this behavior.

I have talked to her about getting a treat if she does well at night. She's excited about it but she's not earned anything yet.

[DrSally]

Yeah, it does sound like she still needs the nap. I would talk up the sticker chart a lot. Let her put the sticker on if she goes all night wo/crying for you. Even if she wakes up, tell her she can quietly sit/read/play in her bed until she falls asleep again.

[kijip]

I would not tie it to a treat. The treat is not at hand during the waking so it doesn't really exist in her world at that moment. She is too young to reason "if I stay quiet at night, I get a treat" when she wakes up and starts to cry out. When she "earned" it, it would be more due to chance than anything else. I think it could cause anxiety at worse and just not be effective at best.

I am sorry you are dealing with this. Not fun.

I totally get not being able to co-sleep. One thought I had would be to move her bed to your room so she could see you but not be in bed with you. Or perhaps in the hall just outside your room with the door open. And I second the no-cry sleep solution for tots book. Maybe try a white noise machine or fan to sooth her a bit when she wakes up? F, Al Gore be damned, will sleep through the night much better with a portable air conditioner trained on him. Whatever.works.

If you pick her up at night does she stop crying? Does she stay awake when you pick her up or does she go back to sleep?

[KrisM]

DS1 didn't through the night until a nearly 4. We tried so many things and he just wasn't ready, I guess. But, as much as I didn't like older kids sleeping with us, it is what worked best. Maybe if you try that for a week or two, you'd adjust? I think my DS was lonely in there. We moved DD into his room, at his request, and it was wonderful. I trully thought it was a huge mistake, but since he repeatedly asked, I moved her. He went from waking 3 times a night to only once. This was 2 months before age 4.

Now, very occassionally, he'll join us in bed, but he just comes in and crawls in the bed and goes back to sleep. DD will do this too. Let me tell you, it's a whole lot easier if you can learn to sleep in the room with them because even though I wake up, I don't get out of bed and we are all asleep more quickly again.

I don't have any great suggestions. I hope you figure something out.

[SunCB]

She seems to fall asleep right away, mostly just waking after she goes to sleep. I do think she needs the nap at least until she sleeps well at night. When she doesn't nap she gets very aggressive, hitting, very rough, body slams us, even biting. When she naps we don't have this behavior.

My nearly 4 yo can be more aggressive also when he does not nap but does sleep through the night more often if he does not get a nap though now he is getting to the point where he seems to need the nap less so some days are not as bad as others. So if you can try to take away the nap you may want to consider it.

[kam]

Kbud --

DD is only 18 months so I don't have many suggestions, but I wanted to send my support. She's a good sleeper, but we DID do a modified CIO with her. (Visits and patting with no picking up). we rarely have trouble, but now that she's older, when she wants out she is LOUD. My only suggestion if she's taking a really long time is to visit periodically (15-20 minutes?) to pat. But I only do that if DD is "ramping up". If she's starting to settle herself and quiet down, then I don't go in, since it'll just make her worse.

FWIW -- at older ages, I think it's goign to take longer than a few nights. I wouldn't stop for a week-10 days, since you're trying to break a long standing habit. If she's still not going down after a week or so of consistency, then I'd ask for a referral to confirm that there's not an underlying issue.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!!!

[erosenst]

So sorry you're going through this.

If you haven't read Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, you might want to do so. One of the things that struck me in reading it is that the *total* crying time during CIO is less when you close the door, walk out, and don't go back til the next morning than if you go in after 5, then 10, then 15 minutes. Reading your post, I have a feeling that, by going in after 90 minutes, you're 'teaching' her that if she cries long enough, you'll relent. And at almost three, she can outlast you :).

Also - at almost three she may be able to verbalize what she's crying for. Is it your company? A drink? The crib bothering her? Around that age, DD had an issue about....I forget what. Until someone pointed it out, I hadn't realized I hadn't asked her why. And she had a relatively logical issue that we could resolve.

Good luck - and FWIW, I totally agree that the current state isn't working for any of you. It's a health issue, and you need to do what you need to do to resolve it. You would give her a shot/medical test if she needed it for health reasons, even if she cried after. This is not dissimilar. And while it's not fun for anyone, IMHO crying will not hurt an otherwise healthy child, but will likely let her learn some self-soothing skills that will help her the rest of her life.

[kbud]

update added in original post

[elektra]

Thanks for the update. I would have never thought of a sleep study. Hope the iron works!

[MommyofAmaya]

Another vote for trying to lose the nap. Sebastian had never slept for more than 3 hours at a time before he dropped his nap a couple of months ago. He now sleeps for 6 hours at a time (miraculous for us), waking only once throughout the night. This made a significant improvement in my quality of life. The first few days were tough, but after he caught up on his sleep at night, he became much happier during the "nap-time" part of the day.

[malphy]

Did you have to go through your ped to get the sleep study?

DD has been sleeping with me lately and she tosses and turns and kicks and thrashes like a mad woman. I have sleep apnea and have a cpap myself. I am wondering if it may be hereditary.

DD goes for her 4 yr check up this week so I will bring it up to ped