Does night nursing encourage more frequent waking?

[PGTB]

DS is almost 4 months old and his sleeping patterns have regressed since he was about 3 months old. It's been about 4 weeks with him waking up to nurse at least twice a night. he used to sleep for 6 hours straight (between around 10pm to around 4am) when we used to offer him bottle for his night feeding. DH would feed the baby and I would pump, it worked because DS was not good at nursing and bottle-feeding and pumping at that time was lesser of two evils. After DS became more comfortable nursing I decided to stop night time pumping and nursed him instead, it was much better at first, quicker, no messing around with pump parts and no need to wake up DH. But eventually, I guess after DS hit his 3 months growth spurt he just started to wake up more frequently. There were many days during the last month that he would want to nurse every 2-3 hours and sometimes every hour.

I doubt he is still going through his growth spurt, it's been 4 weeks and he is not eating more during the day as would be during a regular growth spurt. He just now developed a need for the extra nursing session during the night. His new routine involves waking up at around 2am, then at 4am, then up for the day between 6 and 7am and I get no sleep. The longest stretch of sleep I got over the last month was 3 hours. I don't know if I can go like this for many months to come. Our ped suggests sleep training (let them cry it out) when DS is about 5 months old.. I don't know if I have the nerve for it.

I am wondering what did you do to reduce the number of nursing sessions during the night and how old was your LO when they voluntarily dropped extra nursing session? When did you EBF LO finally started sleeping through the night (at least have a 6 hour stretch).

[Katigre]

His nursing patterns sound 100% normal and are what both my babies did (we coslept so I didn't have to wake up to feed them).

Have you tried dreamfeeding him before you go to bed to tank him up for the night and hopefully give you a longer stretch of sleep?

[citymama]

I was going to suggest a dream feed too. 3 month old Dd2 goes to bed at around 8, and I nurse her in her sleep most nights when I go to bed around midnight . (The exception is if she falls asleep much later than 8 and I get to bed by 11, which rarely happens). That keeps her going till about 5 or 6 am. I guess that constitutes 2 wakings for her, but just 1 for me.

[BabyBearsMom]

I don't really have advice, just :hug:.

We are going through the same thing with DD since she turned 16 weeks (so going on 2 weeks now). I know how you feel and I hope it ends for both of us fast.

[PGTB]

I don't really have advice, just :hug:.

We are going through the same thing with DD since she turned 16 weeks (so going on 2 weeks now). I know how you feel and I hope it ends for both of us fast.

I hope so too! big :hug: and GL! I gotta get some more detail on the whole dreamfeeding thing, hopefully this will work!

[PGTB]

So, what do you do exactly when you "dream-feed". doesn't your LO wake up?

I am almost too afraid to touch him once he falls asleep in case he gets fussy.

to feed DS I would have to take him out of his mini-crib. He is cranky sometimes when he is woken up and then it's hard to put him back to sleep.

He also seems to have lots of discomfort in his gums these days (since he turned 3 months), I read it's due to salivary glands kicking in. He tends to chew on everything and his and my hand and sometimes plays with the bottle by moving it from side to side but not sucking. I've read cutting teeth shouldn't last for that long, it must be something else.

[arivecchi]

That's not too bad OP! Both of my boys fed every 2-2.5 hrs on the dot until we CIO'd them at 4.5 and 5.5 months. It was really rough. I would have loved two or three wakings a night! I don't think dreamfeeding would have helped with mine. They wanted to keep mommy up as much as possible. ;)

[wendibird22]

DD1 was never a good sleeper until I night weaned her at 19mos.

DD2 was STTN at 6wks old but that ended at 6mos when teething and the desire to crawl were just too much for her. At 8mos she's still waking 1-2x's a night most nights.

The one thing I learned about LO sleep patterns is that just when you think you've got them figured out they change. With DD1 when she was waking 2-3x's a night and I was exhausted I found it helpful to take her to our guest bed and put her between me and a toddler rail and nurse her while dozing. She'd fall asleep and I'd get some rest. I usually woke up when she finished and would put her back in her crib and then go back to my bed. It wasn't ideal but it was more restful than sitting up in a chair in her room.

I do dream feed sometimes with DD2. She doesn't wake up. She arouses enough to latch on.

[PGTB]

That's not too bad OP! Both of my boys fed every 2-2.5 hrs on the dot until we CIO'd them at 4.5 and 5.5 months. It was really rough. I would have loved two or three wakings a night! I don't think dreamfeeding would have helped with mine. They wanted to keep mommy up as much as possible. ;)

I hear you. I have to wake up every 2 hours since I go to bed around midnight, 11pm is the earliest. DS goes to bed pretty late at around 9 or 10pm and sometimes not easily. Then he is awake at around 2am, then around 4am and then he is awake for the day between 6 and 7am and wouldn't go to sleep. DH takes him during that time so that I can get another hour or 2 of sleep. It is bearable when DS nurses efficiently and is not fussy and goes to sleep fast. I usually keep things quiet, so DH doesn't wake up during the night nursings. sometimes DS is very fussy and keeps us up pretty much all night.

I think I can deal with it for another month or two and then upon ped's advice CIO? How did that work out for you? was it traumatic? how long did they cry before falling asleep and how many days did it take? I just want to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel and not something that will last for until I completely wean him.

[PGTB]

DD1 was never a good sleeper until I night weaned her at 19mos.

Wow, that's crazy, I don't know if I would lose all my marbles by then.



The one thing I learned about LO sleep patterns is that just when you think you've got them figured out they change.

No kidding! My DS used to sleep 6 hours straight and I always thought he is not too bad of a sleeper even during early weeks. I guess, he got me spoiled, he was able to go 5 hours straight I think at 3 weeks or even less, don't remember. He was also formula fed then, don't know if this matters. and when he slept better during EBF weeks, he was bottle fed during the night. I keep him close by my side in a mini-crib, so maybe he smells the food is near now that he nurses more than before?

[arivecchi]

CIO is controversial but for us it was a life saver. I just could not continue sleeping that little. With DS1, we tried it at 4.5 months because I was back at work and had to sleep more. It took three nights. We did the Ferber approach.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_the-ferber-method-demystified_7755.bc

With DS2, we did it at 5.5 months of age. I think it took him 4 or 5 nights. It was hard at first but the results were very much worth it to us. We did discuss it with our ped before trying it.

[citymama]

So, what do you do exactly when you "dream-feed". doesn't your LO wake up?



Well, mine doesn't wake up when I dream feed her, but she is just 14 weeks so maybe it will change in a month. Even if she stirs a little, nursing while she is so drowsy puts her right back to sleep. In fact, it's sometimes a challenge to keep her awake enough to nurse!

[alirebco]

sounds like 4 month wakeful period to me. ds was sleeping 8 hours in a row before 4 months and then it all went to crap. we don't do cio but nursing 2x in the middle of the night at 4 months is pretty normal for most kids.

[edurnemk]

His nursing patterns sound 100% normal and are what both my babies did

:yeahthat: Well, I've only had one baby. He nursed twice during the night (roughly 1 am and 4-5 am) until 6-8 months at least.




I am wondering what did you do to reduce the number of nursing sessions during the night and how old was your LO when they voluntarily dropped extra nursing session? When did you EBF LO finally started sleeping through the night (at least have a 6 hour stretch).

We switched to bottle for some feedings, including the 1 am, and gradually reduced the volume of milk for that feeding until he stopped waking up at about 1 ounce. But I wouldn't do that for a 4 month old, he's too young and he may geniunely need to be fed (DS was much older and eating soldis, too). Our Ped said it was totally normal for EBF babies to nurse 1-2 times per night until around 6 months, and that they do actually need it, but after that it's OK to do some sleep training.

We had a 6 hour stretch at about 2 months, but that lasted less than a month. Then it appeared again a couple of months later, but it was 7 pm to 1 am, and then he was back on nursing every 2-3 hours

I highly recommend reading Dr. Ferber's book (Solving your child's sleep problems, the latest edition since it's been thoroughly revised) to understand sleep cycles and what's actually a problem. He talks about many different causes and gives several solutions (the gradual CIO is the most popular, but not the only one).

Other than that all I did was go to bed earlier and at least a few times a week I'd nap along with him during his long nap of the day. And I adjusted my expectations, everyone IRL says their babies STTN at 2 months, but I doubt it's true in most cases from what I've seen with other moms in our playgroups.

[BabyBearsMom]

I keep him close by my side in a mini-crib, so maybe he smells the food is near now that he nurses more than before?

Can you move him to his own room? DD (while still waking a fair amount) woke up a lot less once we moved her to her own room. I think she must have smelled me constantly and it made her more hungry.

We tried a semi-dream feed last night. I heard DD shifting around a lot at about 10pm, picked her up, nursed her and put her right back to bed, and she only half woke up through the whole thing. She did better. Slept until 3am, but then I gave her a pacifier and she went back to sleep until 6am.

You said your DS goes to sleep at 9 or 10. Have you tried putting him down earlier? We found the DD sleeps longer and more soundly when she goes to bed early (she goes down at 7).

[PGTB]

Can you move him to his own room? DD (while still waking a fair amount) woke up a lot less once we moved her to her own room. I think she must have smelled me constantly and it made her more hungry.

We tried a semi-dream feed last night. I heard DD shifting around a lot at about 10pm, picked her up, nursed her and put her right back to bed, and she only half woke up through the whole thing. She did better. Slept until 3am, but then I gave her a pacifier and she went back to sleep until 6am.

You said your DS goes to sleep at 9 or 10. Have you tried putting him down earlier? We found the DD sleeps longer and more soundly when she goes to bed early (she goes down at 7).

Unfortunately, we are in a 1 bedroom for now so no separate room for DS yet. I could roll him into the living room, but at this point I do want to keep him by my bed side for my own comfort as well.

I tried to dream feed yesterday, but it was a failed effort. Actually, DS started stirring and whimpering a bit after midnight, so I got up, I wasn't quite fully asleep yet, and nursed him. He ate well and fell asleep as usual at the breast, but the moment I would put him down he would wake up and whimper again. I would pick him up and nurse again and again, basically "rinse and repeat" about 3 times before he finally passed out. Basically, his dream feed lasted for over an hour and sent me to bed finally way after 1am. He woke up 3 hours later and his nursing took awhile again, with him getting fussy when he would be put down into his crib. He fell asleep again for 2 hours and then I don't remember much, his next waking was my DH's "shift" and he took care of him to give me extra 2 hours of sleep. I feel like I am probably doing something wrong... I think I like the pacifier idea, I often feel like during these fussy nursing sessions (they aren't always like this) he uses my boob as a pacifier. But what do you do when he falls asleep with the paci i his mouth, wouldn't he wake up the moment it falls out of his mouth?

I should try to put him down to sleep for the night earlier. It's just never worked out this way. DH and I both work and come home around 6pm, so we don't get to spend much time with DS if he put him down to sleep at 7pm. Besides, he gets excited to see us and even when we tried to put him down at 9pm, he didn't want to sleep. We also wash him before bed, he loves his bath time and no matter how fussy he is, he always calms down when in the water. We tried earlier bath time, but DS wouldn't go to bed usually until 9:30pm or 9pm the earliest.. Is this wrong? Is this true that little babies like this need much much earlier bed time?

I feel like his schedule is so broken... he actually doesn't have a distinct pattern anymore at night and can wake up pretty much whenever, like midnight or 2 am or 3 am, it's really so unpredictable. My ped made it sound like once they hit the magic mark of 3 months they really settle into some sort of a schedule. Well, it seemed more like his schedule has gotten unsettled since he turned 3 months old.

[BabyBearsMom]

I don't think you are doing anything wrong. With a baby this young, as long as you make sure that he feels loved, you are a great parent (that is my mom's advice and that is how I get through every doubt filled day). I also think that pediatricians can make you feel rotten (mine wants me to cut out the night feeding and use CIO if necessary, my 4 month old is so not ready for CIO). So first off, :hug: and stay strong!

As far as going to bed early, I totally know how you feel. I don't usually get home from work until 6:00 or 6:30, so some nights I don't even see DD at all (DH gets home at 5, so he is on duty until I get home), which is really hard on me. I have read a lot about how the earlier you put children to bed the later they will sleep, but I do think that every baby is different. Some babies are night owls and some are early birds, you may just have a night owl. I do know that for us, when we started putting DD down earlier, the nights did get better (although we still aren't sleeping through the night so, not perfect).

With the paci, one of the following usually happens: 1) She is so dead asleep when it finally does fall out of her mouth, so she doesn't even notice; 2) It falls out and she wakes up pissed (not often, but it happens if it falls out before she is totally asleep; 3) I stay in the room until she falls asleep and then gently take it out of her mouth; or 4) She flips on her belly (her new favorite sleeping position) and the paci balances in her mouth against the mattress.

If you don't think you are comfortable with your LO sleeping in another room, you should definitely keep him in the room with you. It certainly doesn't hurt him and even if moving him helped him sleep more, it wouldn't help you because you would be up all night checking in on him. My original plan was to keep DD in the room with us for 3 months, but I don't think any of us were sleeping (DD woke up constantly to eat because she could smell me and DH and I were constantly waking up to ever little noise she made) so we moved her to her own room at 6 weeks. I think that every family has to find the sleeping arrangement that works best for them.

Sorry the dream feeding didn't work out well. Did you try letting him whine for a few minutes before you picked him up? After I nurse DD and put her down to bed, she kind of grunts around for a minute or two before she falls back asleep all the way. It isn't crying, just "eh eh eh" but it doesn't last long and doesn't turn into a cry. I find if I just let her settle, she goes back to sleep and she is fine. We did our second night of dream feeding last night and it was okay but she definitely whined a little bit when I put her down after she ate (bedtime at 7, dream feed at 10, she woke up at 4 and took a paci, and then she slept until 5:45 for breakfast).

Sorry this is so long. Good luck with everything!

[PGTB]

:yeahthat: Well, I've only had one baby. He nursed twice during the night (roughly 1 am and 4-5 am) until 6-8 months at least.



We switched to bottle for some feedings, including the 1 am, and gradually reduced the volume of milk for that feeding until he stopped waking up at about 1 ounce. But I wouldn't do that for a 4 month old, he's too young and he may geniunely need to be fed (DS was much older and eating soldis, too). Our Ped said it was totally normal for EBF babies to nurse 1-2 times per night until around 6 months, and that they do actually need it, but after that it's OK to do some sleep training.

We had a 6 hour stretch at about 2 months, but that lasted less than a month. Then it appeared again a couple of months later, but it was 7 pm to 1 am, and then he was back on nursing every 2-3 hours

I highly recommend reading Dr. Ferber's book (Solving your child's sleep problems, the latest edition since it's been thoroughly revised) to understand sleep cycles and what's actually a problem. He talks about many different causes and gives several solutions (the gradual CIO is the most popular, but not the only one).

Other than that all I did was go to bed earlier and at least a few times a week I'd nap along with him during his long nap of the day. And I adjusted my expectations, everyone IRL says their babies STTN at 2 months, but I doubt it's true in most cases from what I've seen with other moms in our playgroups.

Thank you for your suggestions. I did end up getting the Ferber book on my Kindle and reading it now as much as my sleep deprived brain can handle at this point. I am learning a lot, so hopefully this will answer some of our prayers.

The situation with DS had gotten worse since I wrote. He had a couple of nights where he would wake up every hour. Then back to 2-3 hours waking. And sometimes when you think things just can't get any worse they can. Sometimes it takes 2 hours to put him to sleep at night and last night he had been unable to go to sleep after his 2-3 am waking until 5am! Regardless what we did, nursing, rocking him, walking with him, the moment his head would hit the crib mattress, he would cry. I am also suspecting reading the Ferber book that he simply doesn't get enough sleep anymore. He usually sleeps between 10 and 12 hours in 24 hour period and according to the book it's supposed to be around 13 hours at this age.. He is also fussy during the day and his naps are always a struggle. Poor baby cannot go to sleep on his own at all, he lost this ability somehow. He used to be able to do this when he was younger... I wonder if I have created nursing/sleep association and/or we had spent too much time carrying him and not enough time to let him stay on his own to fall asleep without being in our arms. I am also suspecting he has reflux problems due to frequent spitting up.

It's almost like when you think certain age is supposed to make things easier, they just get much harder. The misconception is that we hear from almost everyone that once babies hit 3 months mark, things get easier, their schedules start settling. It is so opposite for our poor DS! I am not ready to sleep train him yet until he is about 5 months or our Ped gives us the green light to do this.

What techniques worked for you as far as sleep training is concerned and when did you start?