Koran/Qur'an burning

[bubbaray]

So, we haven't had a thread on this.

What are your thoughts on this topic? It is getting a LOT of press here.

*I* am loathe to actually agree with a politician of any ilk or nationality, but I do like Harper's comment that “I don't speak very often about my own religion, but let me be very clear: My God and my Christ is a tolerant God, and that's what we want to see in this world,” he said. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/stephen-harper-condemns-koran-burning-my-christ-is-a-tolerant-god/article1700607/

I am extremely concerned that this will trigger increased violence against Westerners and Americans specifically. I am very concerned about that. I also think that conduct like this only encourages those of other faiths to do things like burn Bibles.

Thoughts??

[BillK]

I think it's beyond stupid for a number of reasons. The "preacher" organizing it sounds like a complete flake to me.

[MelissaTC]

I think it is wrong and beyond disrespectful to burn what is considered to be a holy book of any religion. The whole thing is so wrong to me and the references to satan are just infuriating.

[HIU8]

Honestly, if he goes through with it, I am not sure I'm taking DD to preschool on Monday. Maybe an unreasonable fear, maybe not. What if something happened (it's not a secular preschool IFKWIM). We live in a large metropolitan area. Stuff happens...I know they have security, but still...

[MamaSnoo]

I think the thought of organizing a group of people to willfully destroy the holy writings/icons/symbols of other people's faith(s) is disgusting and morally reprehensible.

In my own mind, it is not an exercise of freedom of speech; it is more an act of violence and a hate crime.

I, too, and worried about the image this planned buring would portray to the world of the US and of Christians, and I am concerned about retaliation.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I believe in freedom of speech, but what this guy is doing/saying needs a "freedom of stupidity and insensitivity" clause added into the amendments.

I am Agnostic, but think it is wrong to burn anything sacred to another human being. This guy is a real jerkhole. He is an ignorant, attention seeking person perpetuating violence against westerner's. And people wonder why so many countries do not like American's....

[WolfpackMom]

I think the thought of organizing a group of people to willfully destroy the holy writings/icons/symbols of other people's faith(s) is disgusting and morally reprehensible.

In my own mind, it is not an exercise of freedom of speech; it is more an act of violence and a hate crime.

I, too, and worried about the image this planned buring would portray to the world of the US and of Christians, and I am concerned about retaliation.

:yeahthat:
I think its sick and am ashamed of the intolerance that seems to be popping up more and more lately. I can't imagine the uproar these same individuals would cause had someone threatened to burn the bible!

[brittone2]

I don't even have words for how it makes me feel.
It makes me ill that a small group of people will attract such enormous attention and media coverage. I can only hope that the rest of the world realizes what they are seeing does not represent how all Americans feel :(

[codex57]

I'm Christian. That "preacher" is not. I may not be a great Christian, but that guy has no right to sully the reputation of Christians by claiming to be one and acting on behalf of God or whatever garbage he's claiming.

[DietCokeLover]

I think for me it boils down to the statement from the general in Afghanistan stating that he believes this will put our troops in further danger.

That is a deal breaker for me. They are over there risking their lives to provide safety for me and my family. Anyone, who willingly and knowingly puts the troops who are sacrificing for us in danger, is deserving of no respect in my opinion.

[JBaxter]

Im a pretty conservative Christian and I hear of a lot of things that people claim to do in the name of God. Claiming it doesn't make it so. I think its very wrong as does everyone I have spoken with about it.

[sarahsthreads]

I don't even have words for how it makes me feel.
It makes me ill that a small group of people will attract such enormous attention and media coverage. I can only hope that the rest of the world realizes what they are seeing does not represent how all Americans feel :(

:yeahthat:

I don't have words either, but this sums it up almost exactly right. It makes me feel ill.

Sarah

[arivecchi]

It's sheer insanity and hate on his part. I am shocked that people follow this nutcase.

[BillK]

It's almost like putting blame on all Catholics for the Oklahoma City bombing since Timothy McVeigh was Catholic at one point during his life. Crazy.

[daniele_ut]

I think it's terribly disrespectful and it makes me very sad.

[carolinamama]

I don't even have words for how it makes me feel.
It makes me ill that a small group of people will attract such enormous attention and media coverage. I can only hope that the rest of the world realizes what they are seeing does not represent how all Americans feel :(

:yeahthat:

The "church" that is doing this has 50 members. FIFTY MEMBERS have claimed this much attention and are putting our troops, country, and our families in danger. It's selfish and disgusting to me. I really wish they weren't getting any media attention for it though because then they would either not do it or atleast the rest of the world wouldn't get the wrong idea that most Americans are do disrespectful and intolerant of other religions.

[katydid1971]

I bet 99.9999999% of American's think what this guy is doing is wrong. I wish there had not been any coverage of it. We are giving this NUTJOB what he wants ATTENTION!!!!!! It is so wrong in sooo many ways I just hope the rest of the world knows he doesn't represent America.

[trales]

I can't believe one crazy, hateful man can attract so much power and influence. That in and of itself is very scary to me.

I think the man is morally reprehensible as it what he claims to stand for.

I hope that people can see that he does not represent Americans/ Christians any more than the 911 terrorists represent Muslims.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Baseball games are covered on a radio station that has right wing talk shows during the day. So, it was on when I got into the car today (I have begged dh not to leave it on since it makes my BP spike!) they were talking about this. The host and the caller were completely and utterly disgusted and unsupportive of the actions. They thought it was terrible that 1 person could almost be the "representative" of a whole group of people when that person was, as pp said, a flake. His views are all of a sudden being treated like the voice of popular sentiment but it really, really isn't.

eta- I am appalled about the whole thing. This hatred is just a horrible thing.

Beth

[citymama]

I think the thought of organizing a group of people to willfully destroy the holy writings/icons/symbols of other people's faith(s) is disgusting and morally reprehensible.

In my own mind, it is not an exercise of freedom of speech; it is more an act of violence and a hate.

:yeahthat: this. And the timing before the elections is no coincidence.

[Karinyc]

I keep asking myself why are we even bothering giving him air and tv time...but, unfortunately, I know the answer.


It's almost like putting blame on all Catholics for the Oklahoma City bombing since Timothy McVeigh was Catholic at one point during his life. Crazy.

:yeahthat: This is the argument I use in reference to the mosque being built close to Ground Zero (in regards to Muslims and Islam), but that's a whole other topic....

[TwinFoxes]

It's canceled...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/09/AR2010090900743.html?hpid=topnews

It will be interesting to see if it stays canceled. The deal to move the NY Islamic center seems, well, weird.

[Indianamom2]

I'm a very conservative Christian. I do not agree at all with this preacher. Burning a kuran is disrespectful and meant to incite violence.

However, I am also do not agree at all with all the media coverage, which is at least as much to blame for inciting violence if any should occur.

This has been turned into a political stunt by the media to show how "ignorant and intolerant and hateful" all Christians are...and their stunt might aid in getting a lot of people hurt.

[maestramommy]

"GAINESVILLE, Fla. -- The minister of a Florida church said he has canceled plans to burn copies of the Quran because the leader of a much-opposed plan to build an Islamic Center near ground zero has agreed to move its location. The agreement couldn't be immediately confirmed.


The Rev. Terry Jones said Thursday that Americans oppose the mosque being built at the location and that Muslims do not want the Quran burned. He said instead of his plan to burn the books on Saturday to mark the ninth anniversary of 9/11, he will be flying to New York to speak to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf about moving the mosque."


And if that ain't blackmail, I don't know what is. It burns me up when he said Americans oppose the mosque being built at the location. *I* am an American and I do not oppose it being built there, neither do many of my friends, who are also American. It irritates me to no end that some people make these sweeping statements, like they're speaking for the whole country.

[♥ms.pacman♥]

ugh this whole thing makes me sick, as PP said. it bothers me that it actually doesn't bother a lot of other americans. a conservative acquaintance on FB just posted an article about this, commenting on how he was upset that "obama urged an american not to exercise freedom of expression". um, okay...so *that*'s the big issue here, freedom of speech, not acts of intolerance or hate.

[kristac]

"GAINESVILLE, Fla. -- The minister of a Florida church said he has canceled plans to burn copies of the Quran because the leader of a much-opposed plan to build an Islamic Center near ground zero has agreed to move its location. The agreement couldn't be immediately confirmed.


The Rev. Terry Jones said Thursday that Americans oppose the mosque being built at the location and that Muslims do not want the Quran burned. He said instead of his plan to burn the books on Saturday to mark the ninth anniversary of 9/11, he will be flying to New York to speak to Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf about moving the mosque."


And if that ain't blackmail, I don't know what is. It burns me up when he said Americans oppose the mosque being built at the location. *I* am an American and I do not oppose it being built there, neither do many of my friends, who are also American. It irritates me to no end that some people make these sweeping statements, like they're speaking for the whole country.

:yeahthat:

I'm really surprised the Mosque would agree to his demands. I feel like this asshat has already added fuel to the terrorist's fire even if he does not end up going through with the burnings.

[MontrealMum]

I saw what Harper had to say about it earlier today and was very proud to see him speak up, especially since he's usually so private and taciturn.

As for the rest, Ugh! ITA with pp. Totally reprehensible. Talking about it just gives it more life.

[GonnaBeNana]

I too am a conservative Christian and the whole thing makes me ill. This "preacher" is no more an example of God's love than the fool from the church who shows up at soldier's funerals causing such a ruckus and showing such disrespect for our fallen soldiers.

While do not agree with what the Qu'ran teaches, that doesn't mean that I'd burn it to try to prove something. It is an act of fear and hate, and Christ never preached either one.

A pp quoted someone as saying "My God and my Christ is a tolerant God, and that's what we want to see in this world..." This is not found in scripture either. Christ NEVER taught tolerance. He taught many things, but He never said that Christians were to tolerate sin, in any way, shape or form. We are to forgive, show mercy and kindness and care for others in His name, but we are not to tolerate the wrongs in the world.

Satan is cheering over this event and God is sorrowed. He will prevail in the end though and Satan knows it. We just have to keep praying and having faith.

Beth

[bubbaray]

A pp quoted someone as saying "My God and my Christ is a tolerant God, and that's what we want to see in this world..." This is not found in scripture either. Christ NEVER taught tolerance. He taught many things, but He never said that Christians were to tolerate sin, in any way, shape or form. We are to forgive, show mercy and kindness and care for others in His name, but we are not to tolerate the wrongs in the world.



Actually, it was *me* (OP) who posted the quote. And that *someone* is our Prime Minister (seriously, if I quoted Obama and referred to him as "someone", do you think I"d get flamed a bit?!). He is purportedly an evangelical Christian. However, he is (as Molly said) extremely taciturn about his private religious views and rarely (ie., virtually never) makes any religious comments in the press.

The fact that he is a highly regarded political leader internationally played a role in his comments. He wasn't quoting scripture. He was saying that people should be tolerant (as in accepting) of religions other than their own.

Also, gramatically, he was using the word tolerant as an adjective, not a verb:
World English Dictionary
tolerant (ˈtɒlərənt) http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html)— adj 1. able to tolerate the beliefs, actions, opinions, etc, of others

[randomkid]

Also, gramatically, he was using the word tolerant as an adjective, not a verb:
World English Dictionary
tolerant (ˈtɒlərənt) http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html)— adj 1. able to tolerate the beliefs, actions, opinions, etc, of others

Melissa - you are such a lawyer! :ROTFLMAO: I love it!!

Back to OP, I am disgusted by this whole thing and even embarrassed that it is coming out of Gainesville,FL. I went to UF and somehow this idiot is not only making America look bad, but also this nice college town.

My concern is that the terrorists have already grabbed hold of this and used it for propaganda. This is exactly the type of thing that they will latch onto and lie about, making it look like the whole country is behind it, not just 50 people. This will lead to more anger and hatred toward the US with an increased likelihood of retaliation. It's scary on a grand scale. IMO, this idiot is stooping to the level of a terrorist with his threats and actions while putting America at risk. Honestly, I think freedom of speech should only go so far. If the security of the country is at risk, the government should have the right to put an immediate stop to it. I am all about freedoms and limiting government involvement, but something like this has potential to be very dangerous.

[MissyAg94]

Honestly, I think freedom of speech should only go so far. If the security of the country is at risk, the government should have the right to put an immediate stop to it. I am all about freedoms and limiting government involvement, but something like this has potential to be very dangerous.
Sorry but I find this unsettling. We CANNOT limit our liberties to placate terrorists. That is a very scary, slippery slope.

The fact that the Sec Def and FBI got involved illustrates what an impossible situation we are in regarding the GWOT.

That said, the "pastor" is a whackadoo.

[randomkid]

Sorry but I find this unsettling. We CANNOT limit our liberties to placate terrorists. That is a very scary, slippery slope.

I am not suggesting that we placate the terrorists. It's a matter of national security, much like the increased security at airports since 9/11. A lot of people have complained that their civil rights and privacy are violated by security at airports. Really? Go ahead and search my bags, ask for my ID, etc.(although I do think some of the efforts are misdirected and ineffective). A lot of things changed here right after 9/11 (that many people felt violated their rights), not to placate terrorists, but to protect us from further attack. The sad thing is, the terrorists achieved what they wanted by making us scared and on edge. We can NOT give in to them and "placate" them, but we can certainly protect ourselves.

Do you really want this "whackadoo" representing the sentiments of every American in this country? Terrorists do not operate the way normal, fair people do. They have an agenda and will use anything they can to incite anger, fear and violence against their target country. They will put such a spin on something like this that it will look like every US citizen is out there burning the Koran. I find what this pastor is doing to be just as dangerous to our country as someone who would steal and sell classified security information. As a PP said, he is practically using blackmail in order to stop something that he doesn't agree with. There are many acts in this country that are illegal and are so in order to protect the security of our country. Seriously? This guy is not exercising freedom of speech. He is out for his own gain and is jeopordizing the safety of a lot of people in order to get what HE wants. However, after reading this article
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-10/florida-pastor-suspends-koran-burning-on-attack-anniversary.html maybe the govt did intervene. All we are being told is that he was urged not to proceed. There is likely more to the story than that. Also in this same article "In an interview with ABC’s “This Week with Christiane Amanpour,” Rauf said that if he moved the Islamic center, “the headline in the Muslim world will be Islam is under attack in America, this will strengthen the radicals in the Muslim world.” ABC released a partial transcript of the interview." The actions/threats of this pastor would be used in the same manner.

[Fairy]

:yeahthat:

I'm really surprised the Mosque would agree to his demands. I feel like this asshat has already added fuel to the terrorist's fire even if he does not end up going through with the burnings.

I want to commend you on your most proper use of the term, "asshat."

[Reyadawnbringer]

:yeahthat: This is the argument I use in reference to the mosque being built close to Ground Zero (in regards to Muslims and Islam), but that's a whole other topic....

Ugh, don't even get me started on this topic... My grandmother already isn't speaking to me because I had the "nerve" to call her out as a hate mongerer on he FB spam about how if you don't oppose this then you aren't patriotic...

[marit]

For me, it reminds the burning of the "torah" books (old testament) in Nazi germany before the war. When things were heating up, but no one really took it seriously.

I've noticed that people here are worried about it causing more terrorist attacks against our troops and maybe even local terrorism in schools and such. This is a very great and real concern of course. But for me, the thing that bothers me most is the dehumanization of muslims and the pure hatred. It scared the **** out of me to think that hate to such degree is possible here (you know, first they came for the.... and I didn't speak up).

Close your eyes and imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim.

[Reyadawnbringer]

For me, it reminds the burning of the "torah" books (old testament) in Nazi germany before the war. When things were heating up, but no one really took it seriously.

I've noticed that people here are worried about it causing more terrorist attacks against our troops and maybe even local terrorism in schools and such. This is a very great and real concern of course. But for me, the thing that bothers me most is the dehumanization of muslims and the pure hatred. It scared the **** out of me to think that hate to such degree is possible here (you know, first they came for the.... and I didn't speak up).

Close your eyes and imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim.

A huge :yeahthat: my extended family and I are at odds on this all the time. I cannot abide their ignorance and hatred.

[Fairy]

I am just kind of speechless here. I know hate. I'm Jewish, I've been hated because of it. I was in "The Laramie Project," and our production was on Phelps's radar, so I'm told, tho he did not show up to protest. I'm aware of hate. Yet this kind of mind-numbing hatred that this wackdoodle-wackadoo-nutjob-wack is espousing is just unrelatable to me. Having a whole race hated I understand on the receiving end. But to be the hater? Of everyone that is Muslim? I don't get that. To what end? I have a few science fiction morality plays to make this guy watch that will teach better than anything on Earth the consequences of wholistic hatred. Citing that God supports hatred and/or does not teach tolerance and acceptance is simply uneducated. Do unto others, Wackadoo. Love thy neighbor, Numbnuts.

Burning Qurans is his right. Cuz he's an American. And here we get to do that sort of thing as freedom of expression. And I'm not willing to sacrifice my freedom of expression cuz the end will never come once we go there. Dude is free to be an asshat. I do, however, wonder where the line is between freedom of practicing asshatedness (not a crime) and blackmail (totally a crime). Cuz let's just be honest, here, that's what's happening. You love your precious Quran? Well I'm gonna get a bunch of fellow numbnuts to burn a bunch of 'em if you don't move your cultural center. And if he's willing to burn a holy book before the cornerstone is even layed, what else might he be willing to do make them leave once it's here? To me, that's blackmail.

So, I'm a little disgusted. In case you can't tell.

Dumb-ass.

[Fairy]

For me, it reminds the burning of the "torah" books (old testament) in Nazi germany before the war. When things were heating up, but no one really took it seriously.

I've noticed that people here are worried about it causing more terrorist attacks against our troops and maybe even local terrorism in schools and such. This is a very great and real concern of course. But for me, the thing that bothers me most is the dehumanization of muslims and the pure hatred. It scared the **** out of me to think that hate to such degree is possible here (you know, first they came for the.... and I didn't speak up).

Close your eyes and imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim.

My favorite post here so far.

[kristac]

For me, it reminds the burning of the "torah" books (old testament) in Nazi germany before the war. When things were heating up, but no one really took it seriously.

I've noticed that people here are worried about it causing more terrorist attacks against our troops and maybe even local terrorism in schools and such. This is a very great and real concern of course. But for me, the thing that bothers me most is the dehumanization of muslims and the pure hatred. It scared the **** out of me to think that hate to such degree is possible here (you know, first they came for the.... and I didn't speak up).

Close your eyes and imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim.

Very good point.

[ha98ed14]

It's just ignorant IMO. I think all those people are achieving is making themselves look like fundamentalist a$$holes!

[gatorsmom]

I saw this guy on the news. My first reaction was to roll my eyes and think "one more loony in the world gets his 15 minutes.". I really hate the media sometimes. If it weren't for the media fanning the flames, this issue would have died down quick right after all the other sensible, busy Americans did the same thing I did- rolled their eyes and forget about this jerk.

But now it's huge news with the world seeing it. If Muslim Fundamentalists were willing to cause so much trouble for the West because of a cartoon in Denmark, imagine what they'll do when they hear about this.

[weech]

For me, it reminds the burning of the "torah" books (old testament) in Nazi germany before the war. When things were heating up, but no one really took it seriously.

I've noticed that people here are worried about it causing more terrorist attacks against our troops and maybe even local terrorism in schools and such. This is a very great and real concern of course. But for me, the thing that bothers me most is the dehumanization of muslims and the pure hatred. It scared the **** out of me to think that hate to such degree is possible here (you know, first they came for the.... and I didn't speak up).

Close your eyes and imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim.

Yes, yes, yes!! Are we seriously in Nazi Germany here? The American Library Association was going to set up a formal protest before the book burning was canceled (ahh! can you tell I'm a librarian!?)

And absolutely yes to your second point as well. Retribution is the last of my worries. I'm afraid that I'm raising my son in an environment that encourages (or at least allows) such hatred... it is absolutely terrifying.

[mommylamb]

This has been turned into a political stunt by the media to show how "ignorant and intolerant and hateful" all Christians are...and their stunt might aid in getting a lot of people hurt.

I do not see that at all. I've seen lots of religious leaders, including many Christians, rightfully condemning this guy and many many media outlets broadcasting their condemnation. I hardly think people are looking at this guy and saying "all Christians are like that" and I don't think that's the media's message here. Christians are not the victims in this.

The fact is, there are extremists in all religions (so far as I can tell) who are interested in inciting violence and they should all be condemned by the more moderate people within their faith and outside their faith.

It is terrible that this could incite terrorist attacks both at home and against our troops and serve as a recruiting tool. But what's more terrible about this guy's intended action is the brake from our ideals as a tolerant society.

[sste]

I am beyond p*ssed about this.

My family logs at least 30 airline tickets per year and my child goes to preschool in a federal building.

As far as I am concerned this person should be prohibited from doing this - - similar to the First Amendment exception that you cannot scream "fire" in a crowded building or otherwise do things that will threaten public safety. This is just the current, global-terrorism version of this.

[bubbaray]

As far as I am concerned this person should be prohibited from doing this - - similar to the First Amendment exception that you cannot scream "fire" in a crowded building or otherwise do things that will threaten public safety. This is just the current, global-terrorism version of this.


:yeahthat:

I'm also puzzled as to why this isn't being investigated as a hate crime. I think it would be here.

[randomkid]

As far as I am concerned this person should be prohibited from doing this - - similar to the First Amendment exception that you cannot scream "fire" in a crowded building or otherwise do things that will threaten public safety. This is just the current, global-terrorism version of this.

:yeahthat: That's what I was saying in a PP, but you did it in a much more clear and concise way. I am not too good at being concise when I'm posting late at night!


I'm also puzzled as to why this isn't being investigated as a hate crime. I think it would be here.

:yeahthat: again! Because nobody has had the insight yet to do so - ridiculous!

[boolady]

As far as I am concerned this person should be prohibited from doing this - - similar to the First Amendment exception that you cannot scream "fire" in a crowded building or otherwise do things that will threaten public safety. This is just the current, global-terrorism version of this.

I think the problem is that the way the law stands currently, the incitement to imminent lawless action exception to free speech is most likely not met here, because how could you prove that imminent, immediate lawless action is going to occur? Believe me, I think this guy is dead wrong, and I am concerned about the ramifications of his actions. That said, I think part of the problem is that while we all know what may occur as a result of his "free speech" in burning, there's no proof that a reaction will happen imminently as a direct result.

The hate crime angle, while interesting, wouldn't work, at least in my state, because there has to be a crime that is motivated by bias or an attempt to intimidate. Our hate/bias crime statute refers to the purpose of the conduct, but the conduct itself, i.e. the burning, has to be illegal. Whether it violates some sort of federal bias intimidation or civil harassment standard, I don't know.

[boolady]

:yeahthat: again! Because nobody has had the insight yet to do so - ridiculous!

But unfortunately, to be a bias crime, at least most places, the underlying conduct has to be criminal. His burning of the books doesn't seem to be illegal, however repugnant it may be to all of us.

[mommy111]

For me, it reminds the burning of the "torah" books (old testament) in Nazi germany before the war. When things were heating up, but no one really took it seriously.

I've noticed that people here are worried about it causing more terrorist attacks against our troops and maybe even local terrorism in schools and such. This is a very great and real concern of course. But for me, the thing that bothers me most is the dehumanization of muslims and the pure hatred. It scared the **** out of me to think that hate to such degree is possible here (you know, first they came for the.... and I didn't speak up).

Close your eyes and imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim.
:yeahthat: I am a huge proponent of 1st amendment rights, so this is a tough one for me. In my mind, this guy has a right to do this under the first amendment, same as the KKK has a right to meet, even though the pure hatred motivating such an act is repulsive to me and it evades me how a man of God could do this. However, that line of yours, Marit, really, really made me think about what I'm keeping quiet about and reconsider my whole stance on this......that really was a perspective-changer for me!!!!

[sste]

I think the problem is that the way the law stands currently, the incitement to imminent lawless action exception to free speech is most likely not met here, because how could you prove that imminent, immediate lawless action is going to occur? Believe me, I think this guy is dead wrong, and I am concerned about the ramifications of his actions. That said, I think part of the problem is that while we all know what may occur as a result of his "free speech" in burning, there's no proof that a reaction will happen imminently as a direct result.

I think the standard for imminent is going to need to adapt to terrorism, high-technology, global crimes. Imminent as a standard works best for physically proximate lawless action - - inciting a mob, yelling fire in the crowded moving theater. But, that is no longer our biggest threat to public safety. Imminent has to mean something slightly different in the context of terrorism, global threats, and national security. Also, haven't there been threats surfacing already from groups pledging retaliation? Shouldn't that qualify even under a stricter standard of imminent?

[nov04]

I think its the most foolish thing I have come across in a long time. And I find it sad that ppl will die over this.

[nicoleandjackson]

It's almost like putting blame on all Catholics for the Oklahoma City bombing since Timothy McVeigh was Catholic at one point during his life. Crazy.

:yeahthat: Exactly!


I bet 99.9999999% of American's think what this guy is doing is wrong. I wish there had not been any coverage of it. We are giving this NUTJOB what he wants ATTENTION!!!!!! It is so wrong in sooo many ways I just hope the rest of the world knows he doesn't represent America.

I totally agree. This story broke on Wednesday in Der Spiegel about this so-called "reverend's" VERY checkered past: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,716409,00.html

How dare he hold the lives of our men and women serving overseas hostage to his demands and personal agenda? AFAIC, he has blood on his hands from the protester that was killed overseas earlier this morning, and now we've got a handful of copycat nutjobs trying to cash in on their fifteen minutes of fame (enter Fred Phelps... *sigh*)
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/jones_may_still_burn_korans_imam_lied_to_us.php?re f=mblt

[boolady]

I think the standard for imminent is going to need to adapt to terrorism, high-technology, global crimes. Imminent as a standard works best for physically proximate lawless action - - inciting a mob, yelling fire in the crowded moving theater. But, that is no longer our biggest threat to public safety. Imminent has to mean something slightly different in the context of terrorism, global threats, and national security. Also, haven't there been threats surfacing already from groups pledging retaliation? Shouldn't that qualify even under a stricter standard of imminent?

I don't disagree with you at all; in fact, I made this argument once, and lost. I agree that the standard does have to change, I just don't know that it has. This situation certainly presents an opportunity for review.

[kijip]

I think this guy, who is almost universally regarded as a total fringe element, is being given far too much power and attention. If we ignored him, w I don't think anyone I have heard or talked to directly generalizes this one small church's foolish and hateful actions in a reflection of christianity as a whole. Like with Phelps, he is just making himself look...obnoxious. The media and all of us collectively are posing a threat to troops by giving this lightweight far more weight than he has earned or deserves. A church of 50 is not a movement.

[Karinyc]

But for me, the thing that bothers me most is the dehumanization of muslims and the pure hatred. It scared the **** out of me to think that hate to such degree is possible here (you know, first they came for the.... and I didn't speak up).Close your eyes and imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim.

Well, I agree with you but...hatred to such a degree has been around here for a long, long time. Just remove Muslim from your last sentence and insert the word of your choice (Black, Jewish, Hispanic, Native American, etc.).

I guess when you have been at the receiving end of bigotry & hatred you can certainly fathom that it exists. I always wonder when my friends express surprise at people's bigotry...where have you been? But it just goes to show that the American experience (even if you are from the same social class) is very unique & individual.

Terrorism has been alive for a long time in this country (I see no difference with domestic terrorists like the KKK and foreign terrorists). A hate group's freedom of expression, no matter how vile it may be, is protected (and should be). It's the legality of their actions that come to play. Same goes with this loon.

[truly scrumptious]

I don't think anyone I have heard or talked to directly generalizes this one small church's foolish and hateful actions in a reflection of christianity as a whole. Like with Phelps, he is just making himself look...obnoxious. The media and all of us collectively are posing a threat to troops by giving this lightweight far more weight than he has earned or deserves. A church of 50 is not a movement.

Your comment in bold hits the nail on the head, I think. You know and I know that one nutcase doesn't represent all Americans/all Christians, etc. But unfortunately the media coverage creates an illusion of legitimacy, and there will be people (both within the U.S. and internationally) who will believe that this is the majority opinion. After all, if it wasn't, why would we all be listening so avidly?

The same way so many people believe that Bin Laden speaks for all Muslims, simply because he is out there and vocal, while the vast majority is silent. And that is the reason anyone wearing a turban suddenly becomes a target.

Honestly, I think we need greater responsibility in the MEDIA, to accept their role in tacitly "legitimizing" fringe opinions. Just because someone is near a microphone doesn't qualify him to speak for everyone else. But that seems to be the case.

[niccig]

But to be the hater? Of everyone that is Muslim? I don't get that.

I had this conversation with an older relative. She said she had the chance to work with a man from Egypt and she thought this would be when she would learn more and become more tolerant. Turned out, the man was obnoxious and she disliked him. I then said but that doesn't mean that all the MILLIONS of Egyptians or Muslims are the same. She fully agreed that there are obnoxious Americans that she doesn't like, but still she uses that one interaction to colour her opinion of everyone of that nationality/religion, an she knows it doesn't make sense.

I don't get it either.

[bubbaray]

But unfortunately, to be a bias crime, at least most places, the underlying conduct has to be criminal. His burning of the books doesn't seem to be illegal, however repugnant it may be to all of us.


Hmm, interesting. I didn't know that.

Here are the relevant provisions of the Canadian Criminal Code (criminal law is federal here):

Public incitement of hatred (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/fra/C-46/page-6.html#codese:319)
319. (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/fra/C-46/page-6.html#codese:319) (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Wilful promotion of hatred (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/fra/C-46/page-6.html#codese:319-ss:_2_)
(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Defences (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/fra/C-46/page-6.html#codese:319-ss:_3_)
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or

(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.


Hate crime legislation is relatively new here. There have been prosecutions, the one I recall was for a newspaper editor of a "fringe" newspaper who published Holocost denial articles. IIRC there have been prosecutions in Ontario against people who spray-painted swastikas on a JCC. I'm not a criminal lawyer, so I don't know a whole lot about it. But, the way it was "pitched" in the press here was that most other Western countries had hate crime legislation and Canada needed some. So, I just thought that there was something similar in the US. Interesting.

[boolady]

Melissa, I only responded as to state law where I am. There may be broader federal language, and different state laws in the 49 others that know nothing about. I should have included that my state does include disorderly conduct (misdemeanors) that is motivated by/with the purpose of bias, so in a lot of instances, if something rises to the level of harassment or disorderly conduct and includes a bias element, it can be charged.

[GonnaBeNana]

Actually, it was *me* (OP) who posted the quote. And that *someone* is our Prime Minister (seriously, if I quoted Obama and referred to him as "someone", do you think I"d get flamed a bit?!). He is purportedly an evangelical Christian. However, he is (as Molly said) extremely taciturn about his private religious views and rarely (ie., virtually never) makes any religious comments in the press.

The fact that he is a highly regarded political leader internationally played a role in his comments. He wasn't quoting scripture. He was saying that people should be tolerant (as in accepting) of religions other than their own.

Also, gramatically, he was using the word tolerant as an adjective, not a verb:
World English Dictionary
tolerant (ˈtɒlərənt) http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html)— adj 1. able to tolerate the beliefs, actions, opinions, etc, of others

I apologize. I didn't mean to turn this into a semantics argument. I also meant no disrespect toward your Prime Minister. I just didn't recall his name. As for referring to Obama as "someone," that wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

I did not imply that your Prime Minister, or anyone else, was quoting scripture. I wasn't either. I was just pointing out that God is not a tolerant God. I do agree that we should never be disrespectful of anyone, regardless of what they believe. I don't have to tolerate one's beliefs or actions to be tolerant of them as people. It's two different things IMO. I can tolerate the pastor who is causing all the stir, but I am certainly not tolerant of his actions under any circumstances.

Again, I apologize if I offended you in any way. My own pastor is Canadian and one of the finest people I know. We live 135 miles from the Canadian border and I've got no problems with Canadians at all (except that when they come here, they seem to forget how to drive;).

Beth

[bubbaray]

No problem Beth -- I just misunderstood.

[Fairy]

I guess the way I see tolerance is that I don't have to agree with it, but I do have to respect one's right to do/think/say whatever they want (baring crime, etc., let's not split hairs). And whether one's God is tolerant is really up for religious interpretation, I suppose, isn't it? However, with Jewish and Catholic background behind me, even tho I, myself, am not religious per se, my understanding of those interpretations is that God wants us to be tolerant of each other and basically play nice together.

[Lolabee]

I guess the way I see tolerance is that I don't have to agree with it, but I do have to respect one's right to do/think/say whatever they want (baring crime, etc., let's not split hairs). And whether one's God is tolerant is really up for religious interpretation, I suppose, isn't it? However, with Jewish and Catholic background behind me, even tho I, myself, am not religious per se, my understanding of those interpretations is that God wants us to be tolerant of each other and basically play nice together.

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking! Thank you for expressing it in a manner that was far better than what I initially came up with.

I know this is going to be a controversial opinion to express, but I can't help but be angry with those who turned the whole Park 51 (not actually at Ground Zero Mosque) plan into a huge controvery for inciting this kook in the first place. Once again, our reputation with our neighbors overseas has been tarnished and millions of muslims have been given a reason to fear and even hate us as a nation.

This whole exercise could have been an example of American Constitutional guaranties of freedom of speech, religion and association in action. Instead, it's shown just how many among us are more than happy to try and prevent others from practicing their Constitutional rights so that a minority can not be offended or upset. Yes, this crackpot has the right to say whatever he wants, and people have the right to argue against the building of a Mosque if they want, but that doesn't mean that they should get to win the debate because they yelled the loudest.

[Fairy]

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking! Thank you for expressing it in a manner that was far better than what I initially came up with.

I know this is going to be a controversial opinion to express, but I can't help but be angry with those who turned the whole Park 51 (not actually at Ground Zero Mosque) plan into a huge controvery for inciting this kook in the first place. Once again, our reputation with our neighbors overseas has been tarnished and millions of muslims have been given a reason to fear and even hate us as a nation.

This whole exercise could have been an example of American Constitutional guaranties of freedom of speech, religion and association in action. Instead, it's shown just how many among us are more than happy to try and prevent others from practicing their Constitutional rights so that a minority can not be offended or upset. Yes, this crackpot has the right to say whatever he wants, and people have the right to argue against the building of a Mosque if they want, but that doesn't mean that they should get to win the debate because they yelled the loudest.

Now THAT, Lolla, was well-said.

[ellies mom]

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking! Thank you for expressing it in a manner that was far better than what I initially came up with.

I know this is going to be a controversial opinion to express, but I can't help but be angry with those who turned the whole Park 51 (not actually at Ground Zero Mosque) plan into a huge controvery for inciting this kook in the first place. Once again, our reputation with our neighbors overseas has been tarnished and millions of muslims have been given a reason to fear and even hate us as a nation.

This whole exercise could have been an example of American Constitutional guaranties of freedom of speech, religion and association in action. Instead, it's shown just how many among us are more than happy to try and prevent others from practicing their Constitutional rights so that a minority can not be offended or upset. Yes, this crackpot has the right to say whatever he wants, and people have the right to argue against the building of a Mosque if they want, but that doesn't mean that they should get to win the debate because they yelled the loudest.

:yeahthat: I don't think I could have said it better. This whole situation really saddens me.

[arivecchi]

And whether one's God is tolerant is really up for religious interpretation, I suppose, isn't it? Absolutely.

[Indianamom2]

Oh, I know I shouldn't even wade into this, but I'll just throw this thought out there:

Both things (the koran burning and the building of the mosque aorund ground zero) are legal...but is either one really appropriate, given the circumstances?

[arivecchi]

How is building a mosque/center in any way, shape or form slightly similar to burning a holy book? The burning of the Koran is a hateful act meant to offend and demean Muslims. Building a mosque/center near the WTC site is not a hateful act. IMO, it only offends those who already have an issue with Islamism and attribute the Sept 11 attacks to all Muslims.

[Fairy]

Oh, I know I shouldn't even wade into this, but I'll just throw this thought out there:

Both things (the koran burning and the building of the mosque aorund ground zero) are legal...but is either one really appropriate, given the circumstances?

Why wouldn't it be? Cuz Muslims were responsible for 9/11, a cultural center shouldn't be allowed to be built? Cuz it's not a mosque, for the love o'mike, it's a cultural center. And even if it was a mosque ... so what? I don't see anyone having any issues with a church being built around the corner from the Oklahoma City bombing Federal building. Why would they? McVeigh was one dumb-ass who didn't represent the masses. Muslim extremists do not represent your average every day Muslim. Maybe we should question the wisdom of Southerners building Historical Societies around the corner from plantations. It wouldn't be appropriate in the wake of the oppression of black slaves. Or maybe we should quesiton the wisdom of Mark David Chapman's family to visit Liverpool, ya know, given that the guy killed John Lenon. Honestly, I don't understand why it's inappropriate. I'm not afraid of Muslims congregating at their cultural center. I'm afraid of extremists planning to kill us, definitely. But there are extremists in every religion. Sure, this gives them a good place to do it. But the minute I start saying no to a cultural center (or whatever), then that's a hill I don't want to climb. And won't.

[mommylamb]

Both things (the koran burning and the building of the mosque aorund ground zero) are legal...but is either one really appropriate, given the circumstances?

I think it is wrong to even make comparisons between these two things, to equate them at all. burning someone's holy text is a terrible, bigoted thing to do. People who are religious should be horrified by this action (and I think most are), maybe even more so than someone like me who isn't religious.

Building a religious cultural center in Manhattan isn't some sort of an attempt to celebrate what happened on 9/11, or to "rub our (whoever our may be-- I guess the non-Muslim america??)--noses in it." The type of thinking that draws a parallel between these two things alienates American Muslims from the rest of American society and that is dangerous.

[maestramommy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianamom2 http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/images/buttons2/viewpost.gif (http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2848849#post2848849)
Oh, I know I shouldn't even wade into this, but I'll just throw this thought out there:

Both things (the koran burning and the building of the mosque aorund ground zero) are legal...but is either one really appropriate, given the circumstances?


How is building a mosque/center in any way, shape or form slightly similar to burning a holy book? The burning of the Koran is a hateful act meant to offend and demean Muslims. Building a mosque/center near the WTC site is not a hateful act. IMO, it only offends those who already have an issue with Islamism and attribute the Sept 11 attacks to all Muslims.


Why wouldn't it be? Cuz Muslims were responsible for 9/11, a cultural center shouldn't be allowed to be built? Cuz it's not a mosque, for the love o'mike, it's a cultural center. And even if it was a mosque ... so what? I don't see anyone having any issues with a church being built around the corner from the Oklahoma City bombing Federal building. Why would they? McVeigh was one dumb-ass who didn't represent the masses. Muslim extremists do not represent your average every day Muslim. Maybe we should question the wisdom of Southerners building Historical Societies around the corner from plantations. It wouldn't be appropriate in the wake of the oppression of black slaves. Or maybe we should quesiton the wisdom of Mark David Chapman's family to visit Liverpool, ya know, given that the guy killed John Lenon. Honestly, I don't understand why it's inappropriate. I'm not afraid of Muslims congregating at their cultural center. I'm afraid of extremists planning to kill us, definitely. But there are extremists in every religion. Sure, this gives them a good place to do it. But the minute I start saying no to a cultural center (or whatever), then that's a hill I don't want to climb. And won't.

Thank you, and thank you again.

[MissyAg94]

I am not suggesting that we placate the terrorists. It's a matter of national security, much like the increased security at airports since 9/11. A lot of people have complained that their civil rights and privacy are violated by security at airports. Really? Go ahead and search my bags, ask for my ID, etc.(although I do think some of the efforts are misdirected and ineffective). A lot of things changed here right after 9/11 (that many people felt violated their rights), not to placate terrorists, but to protect us from further attack. The sad thing is, the terrorists achieved what they wanted by making us scared and on edge. We can NOT give in to them and "placate" them, but we can certainly protect ourselves.

Do you really want this "whackadoo" representing the sentiments of every American in this country? Terrorists do not operate the way normal, fair people do. They have an agenda and will use anything they can to incite anger, fear and violence against their target country. They will put such a spin on something like this that it will look like every US citizen is out there burning the Koran. I find what this pastor is doing to be just as dangerous to our country as someone who would steal and sell classified security information. As a PP said, he is practically using blackmail in order to stop something that he doesn't agree with. There are many acts in this country that are illegal and are so in order to protect the security of our country. Seriously? This guy is not exercising freedom of speech. He is out for his own gain and is jeopordizing the safety of a lot of people in order to get what HE wants. However, after reading this article
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-09-10/florida-pastor-suspends-koran-burning-on-attack-anniversary.html maybe the govt did intervene. All we are being told is that he was urged not to proceed. There is likely more to the story than that. Also in this same article "In an interview with ABC’s “This Week with Christiane Amanpour,” Rauf said that if he moved the Islamic center, “the headline in the Muslim world will be Islam is under attack in America, this will strengthen the radicals in the Muslim world.” ABC released a partial transcript of the interview." The actions/threats of this pastor would be used in the same manner.

Read the bold sentence. We can't please the terrorists! Everything we do will be a possible excuse to attack us. Actually, they need no excuse. They hate us and they want us dead, whether an American burns a Koran or not.

We cannot protect ourselves by giving up our constitutional rights. Flying on an airplane is not a constitutional right. Freedom of speech is a constitutional right. Our government bullying an American into not exercising his freedom of speech is exactly what terrorists want. They want us to be so afraid that we sacrifice liberty for "national sercurity." This really shows what an impossible situation we find ourselves in overseas and at home.

I am honestly shocked at how many people actually think burning a religious book should be a crime. Yikes.

[elektra]

How is building a mosque/center in any way, shape or form slightly similar to burning a holy book? The burning of the Koran is a hateful act meant to offend and demean Muslims. Building a mosque/center near the WTC site is not a hateful act. IMO, it only offends those who already have an issue with Islamism and attribute the Sept 11 attacks to all Muslims.

:yeahthat:
I don't think you can really compare the two things at all.

[MontrealMum]

I am honestly shocked at how many people actually think burning a religious book should be a crime. Yikes.

Well, depending on the circumstances surrounding it, here in Canada it could be construed as a hate crime and tried as such. As the OP mentioned. And hate speech is illegal here. I realize that we're not talking about an incident that occurred IN Canada, but the OP was talking about what our PM said, and I think it's important to understand the context in which he was speaking, and what our Charter Rights up here are. We are not the US, we have different laws and a different culture.

[maestramommy]

Well, depending on the circumstances surrounding it, here in Canada it could be construed as a hate crime and tried as such. As the OP mentioned. And hate speech is illegal here. I realize that we're not talking about an incident that occurred IN Canada, but the OP was talking about what our PM said, and I think it's important to understand the context in which he was speaking, and what our Charter Rights up here are. We are not the US, we have different laws and a different culture.

Really? That's very interesting. I didn't know that about Canada.

[MissyAg94]

Well, depending on the circumstances surrounding it, here in Canada it could be construed as a hate crime and tried as such. As the OP mentioned. And hate speech is illegal here. I realize that we're not talking about an incident that occurred IN Canada, but the OP was talking about what our PM said, and I think it's important to understand the context in which he was speaking, and what our Charter Rights up here are. We are not the US, we have different laws and a different culture.

Gotcha. I was narrowly speaking in regards to the U.S. Constitution.

[codex57]

We cannot protect ourselves by giving up our constitutional rights. Flying on an airplane is not a constitutional right. Freedom of speech is a constitutional right. Our government bullying an American into not exercising his freedom of speech is exactly what terrorists want. They want us to be so afraid that we sacrifice liberty for "national sercurity." This really shows what an impossible situation we find ourselves in overseas and at home.

I am honestly shocked at how many people actually think burning a religious book should be a crime. Yikes.

That's the tricky thing. Freedom of speech is a constitutional right. However, it's not an unlimited right. What these limits are is open to interpretation.

The most common example cited is yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater. Normally, yelling "Fire" is a good thing. However, in certain circumstances, it has the potential to cause serious harm. Including death.

That's the problem with this Koran burning thing. How close is it to yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater?

That general brought up the point that it's sure to incite ire and violence against our troops. It's a deliberate act to provoke. Doing it on 9/11 highlights this. How close the causal relationship to any increase in jihadists or direct actions against our troops is open to interpretation.

And there's the rub. Normally, you'd say these acts are too separated and you couldn't claim there was a direct reaction, causing death or injury, from the act of burning the book. However, we are in a heightened state of tension. The media is all over this shining a spotlight and making the world focus on this.

To me, this is akin to the theater filling up with people. Whether it's considered a "crowded" theater, I don't know. It's like the Cold War. Hard to tell when one act is the tipping point that causes nuclear war. The Cuban Missile Crisis showed how some small actions or statements could skyrocket tensions.

To further explore this, if a jihadist group threatened retaliation, does that mean troops/citizens are in imminent bodily danger? If so, does that authorize deadly force against this "pastor" in order to prevent bodily harm to our troops/citizens?

[bubbaray]

Well, depending on the circumstances surrounding it, here in Canada it could be construed as a hate crime and tried as such. As the OP mentioned. And hate speech is illegal here. I realize that we're not talking about an incident that occurred IN Canada, but the OP was talking about what our PM said, and I think it's important to understand the context in which he was speaking, and what our Charter Rights up here are. We are not the US, we have different laws and a different culture.


:yeahthat:

As I already posted, I'm surprised that US hate/bias laws don't cover this type of thing. It was my understanding that Canada was late to the "hate crime" game and everybody else had these kinds of laws.

How were KKK cross burnings in the South dealt with -- were they ever prosecuted?

[MissyAg94]

But where does it end, codex? We are not dealing with rational people here. What if they say that they will attack us if we allow televised Christian church services on Sept 12? Or what if they say they will attack us if we don't outlaw cartoons of Muhammed by next week? Where will we draw the line? Which liberties guaranteed to us by the Constitution should be sacrificed to appease irrational terrorists? If our troops in Afghanistan are in grave danger because of what a 50-person church does in FL, maybe it's time to come home.

[codex57]

But where does it end, codex? We are not dealing with rational people here. What if they say that they will attack us if we allow televised Christian church services on Sept 12? Or what if they say they will attack us if we don't outlaw cartoons of Muhammed by next week? Where will we draw the line? Which liberties guaranteed to us by the Constitution should be sacrificed to appease irrational terrorists? If our troops in Afghanistan are in grave danger because of what a 50-person church does in FL, maybe it's time to come home.

That's them saying it, not us. That's the key difference. There's a difference between submitting to terrorists and inciting them.

One of the reasons The Godfather (the book) appeals to a lot of guys (who tend to be more open to violence as an option) is the "life lessons" imparted by Don Corleone. It's great hearing from a character like that, but the idea has been espoused by many and for a long time. It's one of the principals "hawks" cite as justification. Basically, it's the story of Hitler and how the Western nations pandered to him. They "submitted" to him hoping to appease him. However, there are those who understand it's not in your best interest to try and appease or submit to these people. You don't negotiate with terrorists. Just encourages them. You gotta take a stand. That's part of why the troops are there (I'm not gonna get into my more cynical reasons).

That's far different from inciting them and doing things to piss them off. Not just the terrorists, but any on the fence people. That's what the Koran burning is like.

[MissyAg94]

That's them saying it, not us. That's the key difference. There's a difference between submitting to terrorists and inciting them.

But if political cartoons or Christian telecasts were to incite them, should we stop in the name of national security?

If the Muslim cultural center in NYC incites crazies in this country, should we trample the constitutional rights of the landowners and forbid it being built?

[TwinFoxes]

How were KKK cross burnings in the South dealt with -- were they ever prosecuted?

Burning a cross in and of itself isn't illegal. If you burn it on someone else's lawn it is. First Ammendment again.

[wellyes]

As I already posted, I'm surprised that US hate/bias laws don't cover this type of thing. It was my understanding that Canada was late to the "hate crime" game and everybody else had these kinds of laws.

I'm surprised that Canada forbids it. I'm learning a lot today.

I don't think the burning of a religious book should be illegal and I also don't think some moron saying "hey! I'm gonna burn a religious book!" should be illegal.

It is, however, damn irresponsible of the press to pay any attention to him since he is backed by just about no one. This is not news, it's sensationalism, and then it BECOMES news because it's on the news. Infuriatingly stupid stuff.


However, there are those who understand it's not in your best interest to try and appease or submit to these people. You don't negotiate with terrorists. Just encourages them. You gotta take a stand. That's part of why the troops are there (I'm not gonna get into my more cynical reasons).

I don't understand. Are you referring to the Qu'ran *burner* as a terrorist here? Am I confused on the logic or is your argument that not burning a Qu'ran is appeasing terrorists?

I do REALLY like that book but I never really viewed it as a font of wisdom....but then I am not a guy.

[wellyes]

How were KKK cross burnings in the South dealt with -- were they ever prosecuted?

Acts of domestic terrorism like lynching and cross burnings were tacitly or openly endorsed by local and state law enforcement. The activists of the US Civil Rights movement succeeded by drawing enough attention to this that the federal government stepped in to enact change.

[bubbaray]

I don't think the burning of a religious book should be illegal and I also don't think some moron saying "hey! I'm gonna burn a religious book!" should be illegal.



Its not the burning per se that makes it a hate crime -- its the inciting hatred by the action that does (or so I understand -- I don't practice criminal law). Wilfully and intentionally promoting hatred of an identifiable group is the crime.

We do have freedom of speech, but the hate crime laws have withstood that Charter challenge (ie, the courts have upheld those provisions of the Criminal Code).

[trales]

I did hear on NPR today that this particular church has been watched for many years by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that monitors hate groups.

What scares me about his whole thing is how much influence one crazy hateful man has in our society and how much mainstream attention he is getting. That to me is the problem, not what he is claiming he wants to do, but his widespread influence, propaganda and spreading of his message.

[TwinFoxes]

I did hear on NPR today that this particular church has been watched for many years by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that monitors hate groups.



This is one of the reasons why I don't buy the argument that if he were ignored he'd go away. He's obviously escalating things. If I were Muslim, and I found out after the fact, (or worse DURING the burning) that someone in my community burned a stack of Korans, and the media knew about it but ignored it, I'd be really shaken. I'd want to know what else was being planned that was being ignored. I'd want to know why no one thought it was worth mentioning. Maybe he's getting too much attention, but simply ignoring him sends the wrong message too...silence could easily be taken as acquiescence.

[wellyes]

Its not the burning per se that makes it a hate crime -- its the inciting hatred by the action that does (or so I understand -- I don't practice criminal law). Wilfully and intentionally promoting hatred of an identifiable group is the crime.

Just to clarify, I was saying I didn't know about the hate crime law in Canada and then in a separate thought I was saying I don't think the act(s) should be illegal in the US. Not arguing with Canada's policy.


If I were Muslim, and I found out after the fact, (or worse DURING the burning) that someone in my community burned a stack of Korans, and the media knew about it but ignored it, I'd be really shaken.Why? I'd think one nutso preacher would be similar in impact to a troll -- loves to offend and shock and get attention for it but anyone with any sense does their best to ignore it (Utterly OT but I really liked this NY Times article on the subject of trolls: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html)

[noodle]

For me, it reminds the burning of the "torah" books (old testament) in Nazi germany before the war. When things were heating up, but no one really took it seriously.

I've noticed that people here are worried about it causing more terrorist attacks against our troops and maybe even local terrorism in schools and such. This is a very great and real concern of course. But for me, the thing that bothers me most is the dehumanization of muslims and the pure hatred. It scared the **** out of me to think that hate to such degree is possible here (you know, first they came for the.... and I didn't speak up).

Close your eyes and imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim.

Thank you for saying this.

[maestramommy]

I did hear on NPR today that this particular church has been watched for many years by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that monitors hate groups.

What scares me about his whole thing is how much influence one crazy hateful man has in our society and how much mainstream attention he is getting. That to me is the problem, not what he is claiming he wants to do, but his widespread influence, propaganda and spreading of his message.

In the last couple of days I've been listening to the Diane Rehm show (it airs during preschool pickup, and it's a long line:D). Both times I've heard how one of the reasons it became mainstream media fodder was because General Patreaus (sp?) openly said how the burning would endanger troops abroad. If no public figures had said anything at all, probably very little attention would have been paid to this person. I remember reading one sentence about Terry Jones and his intentions in an article about the Islamic center, and at the time I dismissed it as another nutjob. That was weeks ago. I'm not sure if I totally agree with the theories on the radio show, but I'm pretty sure the headline story about the General's statement was the next thing I read about the incident, and that was as recently as last week. Even our president has had to weigh in (publicly) and try to get this guy to call it off. Which makes it headline news.

[bubbaray]

Why? I'd think one nutso preacher would be similar in impact to a troll -- loves to offend and shock and get attention for it but anyone with any sense does their best to ignore it

Hmmm, I have to disagree with this. My understanding is that our hate crime legislation was specifically meant to discourage society's ignoring of repugnant acts so that we don't end up in another Holocost situation. Marit has stated the issue on that front more eloquently than I.

Just because we don't want to give a nutjob a soap box doesn't mean that we can or should ignore them.

We need to stop the hatred, not ignore it because we ourselves don't share that hatred. Marginalization, ridicule and hatred of identifiable groups is just wrong. We need to take a stand.

[wellyes]

If Qu'ran burning had ANY government support (like the Nazis with the book burnings) or any public support I'd agree. But I have yet to hear anyone actually agree with this guy.

[Melbel]

...
Back to OP, I am disgusted by this whole thing and even embarrassed that it is coming out of Gainesville,FL. I went to UF and somehow this idiot is not only making America look bad, but also this nice college town.

My concern is that the terrorists have already grabbed hold of this and used it for propaganda. This is exactly the type of thing that they will latch onto and lie about, making it look like the whole country is behind it, not just 50 people. This will lead to more anger and hatred toward the US with an increased likelihood of retaliation. It's scary on a grand scale. IMO, this idiot is stooping to the level of a terrorist with his threats and actions while putting America at risk. ...

:yeahthat: As another UF grad, I was also embarrassed about the Gainesville connection. Considering both the threats to burn the Koran originating out of Gainesville and the 9/11 anniversary, I fear for the safety of the fans and players at the home football game tomorrow. The University is taking steps to increase security measures, but there is still increased risk IMO.

[bubbaray]

If Qu'ran burning had ANY government support (like the Nazis with the book burnings) or any public support I'd agree. But I have yet to hear anyone actually agree with this guy.


My recollection is fuzzy, but I thought the Nazis were burning books before they were elected.

[TwinFoxes]

Why? I'd think one nutso preacher would be similar in impact to a troll -- loves to offend and shock and get attention for it but anyone with any sense does their best to ignore

Because one "nutso" and his 50 followers who burn a holy book and are whipped up into a frenzy and have a group mentality and have decided an entire group of people are evil is a lot scarier than someone in cyberspace posting craziness to a message board. 50 people is not a small number if you are already worried about hate crimes targeting you and your family.

I also agree I had only heard of this guy once before Gen. Petraeus mentioned him. But I thought maybe I was out of it.

[kijip]

Your comment in bold hits the nail on the head, I think. You know and I know that one nutcase doesn't represent all Americans/all Christians, etc. But unfortunately the media coverage creates an illusion of legitimacy, and there will be people (both within the U.S. and internationally) who will believe that this is the majority opinion. After all, if it wasn't, why would we all be listening so avidly?

The same way so many people believe that Bin Laden speaks for all Muslims, simply because he is out there and vocal, while the vast majority is silent. And that is the reason anyone wearing a turban suddenly becomes a target.

Honestly, I think we need greater responsibility in the MEDIA, to accept their role in tacitly "legitimizing" fringe opinions. Just because someone is near a microphone doesn't qualify him to speak for everyone else. But that seems to be the case.

The thing about the media is that it is, basically, what we all collectively want. We buy it, we watch it etc. I really think that rather than blaming "the media" as though it is in a vacuum or as though we have no part in the programming, we need to accept collective responsibility for lowering the political discourse and definition of news to the point that the POTUS needs to react to someone so far out there and so seemingly powerless. He gained power and attention via shock. We will watch shock, so he is on the news.

OTH, I agree that we need to be firmly against the hate that this group clearly espouses but that does not mean we need to give legitimacy to the fear and ignorance that breeds this sort of mess. To a degree, I think that the fact that 49% of Americans have a negative view of Islam is the same fear and hatred, even though 49% of Americans clearly don't support this. We do run the risk of letting it grow and expand, and while 50 people is not a movement, 50 people can start a movement, exploit fear and hatred and do a lot of terrible sh*t regardless of how much traction they get.

[mommy111]

The thing about the media is that it is, basically, what we all collectively want. We buy it, we watch it etc. I really think that rather than blaming "the media" as though it is in a vacuum or as though we have no part in the programming, we need to accept collective responsibility for lowering the political discourse and definition of news to the point that the POTUS needs to react to someone so far out there and so seemingly powerless. He gained power and attention via shock. We will watch shock, so he is on the news.

OTH, I agree that we need to be firmly against the hate that this group clearly espouses but that does not mean we need to give legitimacy to the fear and ignorance that breeds this sort of mess. To a degree, I think that the fact that 49% of Americans have a negative view of Islam is the same fear and hatred, even though 49% of Americans clearly don't support this. We do run the risk of letting it grow and expand, and while 50 people is not a movement, 50 people can start a movement, exploit fear and hatred and do a lot of terrible sh*t regardless of how much traction they get.
The Nazis come to mind.....I would hate to be Muslim in the US right now. Just go to CNN and any message board regarding the burning or even regarding flood relief in Pakistan (which is right next to us in China, so its a huge issue here) and you will read comments filled with hate, pure and simple. If I were Muslim and reading these boards, I would be very, very scared about my safety in the US. And if I were overseas and my only experience of the US were stories on religious book burnings and hate filled messages on news network sites, I would think America is one hell of an intolerant country.

[maestramommy]

50 people can start a movement, exploit fear and hatred and do a lot of terrible sh*t regardless of how much traction they get.


It's more than 50 people. Two days ago on the Diane Rehm show one of the panel members mentioned that Terry Jones has an FB page for this burning, and asking people to send him copies of the Koran to burn. When he last checked it had 8000 members. This statement was in response to a caller who seemed to think there are pockets of these kinds of people all over the country, esp. in places that are almost entirely homogeneous, small town, conservative, etc. I don't know how much I agree with the caller per se, but it was eye opening to know that Terry Jones isn't the only nut in this country. I did try to find his FB page, but nowadays when you do a search it's buried under all the other FB pages that oppose him:p

[mommylamb]

In the last couple of days I've been listening to the Diane Rehm show (it airs during preschool pickup, and it's a long line:D). Both times I've heard how one of the reasons it became mainstream media fodder was because General Patreaus (sp?) openly said how the burning would endanger troops abroad. If no public figures had said anything at all, probably very little attention would have been paid to this person.

Maybe I'm wrong about the chronology here, but I remember hearing this story all over the news before Patreaus said anything. I think the reason he was saying it was because it was already causing unrest in Afghanistan.

ETA: Apropos of nothing, I heard the other day that Terry Jones and Rush Limbaugh graduated in the same year from the same high school. What is in the water in that town???

[arivecchi]

Maybe I'm wrong about the chronology here, but I remember hearing this story all over the news before Patreaus said anything. I think the reason he was saying it was because it was already causing unrest in Afghanistan. That is what I thought as well. It is his duty to protect his troops and I guess they decided to go the public shaming route to (a) make the guy stop his insane burning party and (b) make a statement that the govt. of the US does not tolerate the nutjob's stance. I'm not sure it does any good as the most of the damage is already done but hopefully the message gets across to Muslim moderates in other countries as well as ours.

[arivecchi]

Interesting article on the media's role:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/10/us/10media.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=petraeus%20koran&st=cse

Today's NYT editorial:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/opinion/11sat1.html?ref=opinion

[MissyAg94]

The Nazis come to mind.....I would hate to be Muslim in the US right now. Just go to CNN and any message board regarding the burning or even regarding flood relief in Pakistan (which is right next to us in China, so its a huge issue here) and you will read comments filled with hate, pure and simple. If I were Muslim and reading these boards, I would be very, very scared about my safety in the US. And if I were overseas and my only experience of the US were stories on religious book burnings and hate filled messages on news network sites, I would think America is one hell of an intolerant country.

First, if you read comments on newspaper or news sites (even youtube) regularly, you'll see that they are often filled with hate for the subject of the story. Not sure how to explain that phenomenon but it's not uncommon.

Second, in 2008 (the latest stats I could find on the FBI website) 65.7% of hate crimes targeting religious groups were anti-Jewish and 7.7% were anti-Islamic.

[bubbaray]

Second, in 2008 (the latest stats I could find on the FBI website) 65.7% of hate crimes targeting religious groups were anti-Jewish and 7.7% were anti-Islamic.


I'm not disputing your stats, but I can tell you without a doubt that the perception outside of the US (even in a country that is predominantly pro-US like Canada) is that the US is pro-Israel and Jewish people in general and anti-Islamic. Whether or not the stats bear that out isn't the issue -- the perception in the rest of the world is what it really comes down to.

[MissyAg94]

Well, the stats are what they are. I know what the perception is and I know what the facts are. It's apparently more dangerous to be Jewish in the U.S. than it is Muslim.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/incidents.html

[Fairy]

Well, the stats are what they are. I know what the perception is and I know what the facts are. It's apparently more dangerous to be Jewish in the U.S. than it is Muslim.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/incidents.html

And one of the leading reasons for that is cuz the US is perceived to be pro-Israel (which we are), prompting the Islamic extremists to engage in terrorism, which comes back to the Jews being the bottom line cause, since the US is pro-Israel.

ETA --> In case you missed it, this was snark above. And disgust. And eye rolling. Just being clear, here.

[MissyAg94]

And one of the leading reasons for that is cuz the US is perceived to be pro-Israel (which we are), prompting the Islamic extremists to engage in terrorism, which comes back to the Jews being the bottom line cause, since the US is pro-Israel.

Not sure where you're going with this so I'll refrain from saying much. My only comment is that I certainly don't believe that we should refrain from supporting Israel to appease terrorists.

Those who believe that we are anti-Islamic would do themselves a favor by remembering the various wars that we have been engaged in during the last 20 years.

[bubbaray]

Those who believe that we are anti-Islamic would do themselves a favor by remembering the various wars that we have been engaged in during the last 20 years.


I'm not clear on this comment. If you are referring to the 1st Gulf War, my understanding is that the Muslim world would have rathered that the US kept out of that conflict and let them settle it amongst themselves.

[arivecchi]

Well, the stats are what they are. I know what the perception is and I know what the facts are. It's apparently more dangerous to be Jewish in the U.S. than it is Muslim.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/incidents.html Those are frightening statistics. The percentage of racially motivated crimes is even higher. Sigh. I cannot believe the percentage of Jewish hate crimes is that high as well. Our country has a long way to go.

[MissyAg94]

I'm not clear on this comment. If you are referring to the 1st Gulf War, my understanding is that the Muslim world would have rathered that the US kept out of that conflict and let them settle it amongst themselves.

Well, Kuwait certainly didn't feel that way. And what about the Muslims in the Balkans?

[MissyAg94]

Those are frightening statistics. The percentage of racially motivated crimes is even higher. Sigh. I cannot believe the percentage of Jewish hate crimes is that high as well. Our country has a long way to go.

I agree. Reading that page is sobering, to say the least.

[mommy111]

First, if you read comments on newspaper or news sites (even youtube) regularly, you'll see that they are often filled with hate for the subject of the story. Not sure how to explain that phenomenon but it's not uncommon.

Second, in 2008 (the latest stats I could find on the FBI website) 65.7% of hate crimes targeting religious groups were anti-Jewish and 7.7% were anti-Islamic.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here......that its OK because 65.7% of the hate crimes are against Jewish people? Hate crimes are hate crimes whether they are targeted against Muslims or Jews or Blacks or Mormons.....and I do maintain that with the current environment prevailing over the country and in the media, that I would find it intimidating to be Muslim in the US right now.
And re wars, Afghaniztan I can understand but I'm not sure the Muslim world appreciated our involvement in the 1st Gulf War and as far as the second Gulf War goes, I am pretty sure that created a recruitment bonanza for terrorist organizations.

[wellyes]

Well, the stats are what they are. I know what the perception is and I know what the facts are. It's apparently more dangerous to be Jewish in the U.S. than it is Muslim.

I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion at hand, but -- the Jewish population in the US is much much larger than the Islamic population in the US. The stats aren't scaled to population. Also, large swaths of the Islamic population, particularly South Asians (who make up the bulk of the Muslims in the US) are more recent immigrants and rather insular from the mainstream population. It's not really an apples to apples comparison.

[kijip]

RE: hateful news site comments, I have to try not to be too shocked. I really think there are a number of narrow minded *uckers sitting around trolling such sites. The thoughtful commenters, either pro or con the topic, know to stay away because news site comments (even in local mainstream to liberal papers) trend towards a narrow, fringe sort.

Case in point: I work for a small non-profit with broad based community support. We build income opportunities for homeless and very low-income people that often result in access to housing and other positive outcomes- like getting clean and sober. It is a program that conservatives and liberals alike support and we have thousands of supporters who volunteer, donate, donate items, read our action updates etc. Tens of thousand more are customers, generating the income stream for our clients. We are frequently in the news and our staff is closely connected with local leaders and political power. But whenever we are in the mainstream news- TV and print especially- the comments section on the news site is filled with nasty, violent, and mean comments mocking us, our clients, suggesting that the homeless people in town should be either shot, deported out of the country (even though they tend to be citizens), killed, locked up in a work camp, relocated to another city or place. Staff are called evil, communist, poverty pimps, lazy etc. We should get "real jobs" and do "real work" and stop caring about "worthless pieces of sub-human garbage". These comments run as much as10-1 against us and often are from locations far away from us. Through the lens of media site anonymous comments you would think we were really unpopular with no support but in reality we enjoy bi-partisan, broad based community investment and interest and surveying of the larger city shows high name recognition and high positive regard. But the productive, positive and happy people who support us are not the same people with endless time to sit around typing pointless news comments. If we are in a local alternative press publication or on the radio, the comments are more sane (and yes, we go on liberal, mainstream AND conservative radio locally). At a fundraising event here you might see a Democratic union leader sitting at a table near a GOP donor business owner.

[Fairy]

Not sure where you're going with this so I'll refrain from saying much. My only comment is that I certainly don't believe that we should refrain from supporting Israel to appease terrorists.

Those who believe that we are anti-Islamic would do themselves a favor by remembering the various wars that we have been engaged in during the last 20 years.

Of course, we shouldn't. I was being snarky about the very real perception of these extremists.

[MissyAg94]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here......that its OK because 65.7% of the hate crimes are against Jewish people? Hate crimes are hate crimes whether they are targeted against Muslims or Jews or Blacks or Mormons.....and I do maintain that with the current environment prevailing over the country and in the media, that I would find it intimidating to be Muslim in the US right now.
And re wars, Afghaniztan I can understand but I'm not sure the Muslim world appreciated our involvement in the 1st Gulf War and as far as the second Gulf War goes, I am pretty sure that created a recruitment bonanza for terrorist organizations.

Of course I'm not saying that it's okay to target Jews! And I'm really offended that you would even think that that was what I was saying. My point was that the vast majority of hate crimes are not targeted at Muslims. According to the stats, Jews are targeted at a much higher rate than anyone else.


I have no idea what this has to do with the discussion at hand, but -- the Jewish population in the US is much much larger than the Islamic population in the US. The stats aren't scaled to population. Also, large swaths of the Islamic population, particularly South Asians (who make up the bulk of the Muslims in the US) are more recent immigrants and rather insular from the mainstream population. It's not really an apples to apples comparison.

I quoted the message to which I made the reply. This country is accused of being anti-Islamic when in reality the vast majority of hate crimes are not against Muslims. The Jewish population is not 9 times larger than the Muslim population. Jews are targeted at a much higher rate than any other religious group.


Of course, we shouldn't. I was being snarky about the very real perception of these extremists.

Sorry. I missed the snark.

[MissyAg94]

RE: hateful news site comments, I have to try not to be too shocked. I really think there are a number of narrow minded *uckers sitting around trolling such sites. The thoughtful commenters, either pro or con the topic, know to stay away because news site comments (even in local mainstream to liberal papers) trend towards a narrow, fringe sort.

Case in point: I work for a small non-profit with broad based community support. We build income opportunities for homeless and very low-income people that often result in access to housing and other positive outcomes- like getting clean and sober. It is a program that conservatives and liberals alike support and we have thousands of supporters who volunteer, donate, donate items, read our action updates etc. Tens of thousand more are customers, generating the income stream for our clients. We are frequently in the news and our staff is closely connected with local leaders and political power. But whenever we are in the mainstream news- TV and print especially- the comments section on the news site is filled with nasty, violent, and mean comments mocking us, our clients, suggesting that the homeless people in town should be either shot, deported out of the country (even though they tend to be citizens), killed, locked up in a work camp, relocated to another city or place. Staff are called evil, communist, poverty pimps, lazy etc. We should get "real jobs" and do "real work" and stop caring about "worthless pieces of sub-human garbage". These comments run as much as10-1 against us and often are from locations far away from us. Through the lens of media site anonymous comments you would think we were really unpopular with no support but in reality we enjoy bi-partisan, broad based community investment and interest and surveying of the larger city shows high name recognition and high positive regard. But the productive, positive and happy people who support us are not the same people with endless time to sit around typing pointless news comments. If we are in a local alternative press publication or on the radio, the comments are more sane (and yes, we go on liberal, mainstream AND conservative radio locally). At a fundraising event here you might see a Democratic union leader sitting at a table near a GOP donor business owner.

Sounds like a great organization. Sorry you are targeted by the crazy comments. Not sure what it is that attracts them to news sites.

[mommylamb]

Those are frightening statistics. The percentage of racially motivated crimes is even higher. Sigh. I cannot believe the percentage of Jewish hate crimes is that high as well. Our country has a long way to go.

They are scary. It's funny, because as a Jew, I've rarely felt antisemitism around me. I guess I'm just lucky.

However, I also have a hunch (could be wrong) that Jews are more likely to report hate crimes against them than Muslims in this country, mostly because of the general acceptance of Jews here, so there's more trust for authority. I can't base this on any fact, but it's my hunch that Muslims are less likely to report. I think the anti-Islam feeling in this country runs pretty deep these days.

[gatorsmom]

.....I would hate to be Muslim in the US right now.

I think it goes deeper than that. I would hate to be anyone born in a middle eastern country and living in the US right now. Or even appear to have Arab physical features. I have a close friend who is from Lebanon. He's Maronite Cathlic and his family has a long history of priests and bishops in their family. He is proud to tell anyone he is of a Phoenician background, not Arab (not that there is anything wrong with that, he's just proud of his heritage) and lives in the U.S. now but even he gets the occasional nasty "towelhead" comments. I know others with similar problems.

[kijip]

Not sure what it is that attracts them to news sites.

A handful of hateful people with nothing else to do/too much time on their hands is my guess. I told my story because I don't think that people should take such comments all that seriously. Yes, they are awful but there are plenty more people without those views. If I ran a paper, I would likely second guess even having a comments section. I recall reading a story about a local girl going to college, totally no-drama story, and the comments were all about how the college she was going to was a terrible place filled with evil people and she was too pretty to waste her time on education?! I think these people would post awful things about baby panda bears at the zoo. Just sayin...