The Pledge Of Allegiance if you don't believe

[infomama]

The cub scout thread got me wondering.
I don't know anyone IRL who does not believe in God but since this community differs I wanted to ask......do you/your dc say the Pledge? Do you just remain silent when the 'under God' portion is spoken?

[xmasbabycomin]

I do believe in God now, but went through a time in school (as a student and a teacher) when I didn't. Both circumstances were a bit uncomfortable, but honestly, it's such a rote, often seemingly meaningless process by even 5th grade (which I taught) and 12th grade+ (when I was an agnostic student) that people don't really notice what you do or don't really say. It was hard to force tired kids to get up, stand at attention and respect something that had a couple of words in it which I just left out. I felt hypocritical. I was glad the flag was at the opposite side of the room of my desk, so if the kids looked at me, I'd remind them to face the flag. It was brought up again when we studied coins and found "In God We Trust," but then talked about the religious issues in England that helped push our country to be founded. Fortunately but unfortunately, it wasn't an especially high functioning group so things didn't get too complex, but that was just a fifth grade level!

I remember as a senior, when I was doubting a higher power, a girl in my homeroom (when we said the pledge), wrote this editorial for the newspaper about how insensitive and uncaring the children who didn't say the pledge were. It spouted out a lot of patriotic cliches, and I just loathed her for it. I'm not saying now that she was wrong, it's just how I felt at the time.

My son is in cub scouts and the religion thing HAS been a problem. I think living in the south may exacerbate the issue b/c church is just more a part of everything here. (Like, in college they ask you what sorority you're in? Here, it's what church do you go to? The fact that there is not a yes or no question that precedes it is kinda an issue w/me.) When they put a pic of an altar w/ a cross and sash with "This Do in Remembrance of Me" written on it on the cover of the bylaws, I said I thought it shoudl be changed, mentioning that scouts doesn't promote one specific religion over another. The leader said -in an email to a bunch of people- it was a picture of our host church and he thought it was appropriate, let him know if I still feel it necessary to change it. Umm...that's why I brought it up, right? Can you not take a pic of the outside of the building? If I'd seen those bylaws, I certainly never would've joined, even as a Christian. Sorry, OT

[kijip]

I used to not say a different part of the pledge. I felt (and still feel, to a point) that "with liberty and justice for all" was at best aspirational rather than anything approaching fact. No one really noticed and/or cared. There are always a lot of people in the same room when the pledge is said. I didn't want to say it so I didn't. I think it would work the same way for under God.

[HannaAddict]

It has absolutely zero religious significance to me, was not even part of the original pledge of allegiance but only added during the "red scare" and anti-communist diatribe. I don't mind saying it, there are far more important concerns about separation of church and state. I have no problem saying it, but also would have no problem removing it since it wasn't there originally! The same with "in god we trust" on money, a quaint motto, nothing more.

[HannaAddict]

The cub scout thread got me wondering.
I don't know anyone IRL who does not believe in God

Seriously? That seems so strange to me!

[infomama]

Seriously? That seems so strange to me!
Yes, really and "In God We Trust" is much much more to *me* than a "quaint motto". I really hope this stays on topic. I am genuinely interested in the answer to the question I posed.

[BelleoftheBallFlagstaff]

I say under Lao Tse, the founder of Taoism or Buddha.

[maestramommy]

I say the whole pledge.

[pinkmomagain]

I rarely have to say the pledge (can't even remember when I said it last!), but I just say the whole thing, despite the fact I don't believe.

[egoldber]

I say it and just don't say anything during the "under God" part.

Older DD says the whole thing. I don't know what she really believes yet, and I suspect neither does she. :)

[weech]

Honestly? I don't say the pledge at all. I stopped, I think, in 8th grade.

[Ceepa]

ETC: ooops. Just realized it looks like this thread is asking about non-believers and what they do about the Pledge of Allegiance.

[SnuggleBuggles]

Either I just say it as is or I stay quiet during the "under God" part.

Beth

[Katigre]

I do believe in God (devout Christian) but I don't believe in "pledging" myself to the flag and am uncomfortable saying it. I'm not a huge patriot in that way and I wouldn't care if 'under God' were removed from the Pledge anyway as it wasn't inserted until the 20th century as a protection against the atheist Commies ;). Depending on what I believe the 'under God' part means I might say it or be silent during it. So while I don't have a problem with the pledge from the same angle as the OP asked, I can relate to the overall sentiment. I'm glad I work in educational environments where pledging it is not something regularly done (I've never worked in public K-12 schools where it is common).

What I plan to teach my children is what the Pledge says, what it is supposed to mean, and I think they will end up saying it by rote in school and such which is ok with me b/c I think they should learn the pattern before deciding as teens/adults whether to accept it or reject it for themselves. But it won't be emphasized, I won't treat it as a religious prayer or emphasize the civil religion of the US to them as something we hold as a deep belief. I can be a good citizen without treating my country as something I worship (I don't agree with the treatment of our Flag as a holy icon, certain members of our society as literal Saints that you hold up and emulate as true heroes (regardless of their individual motivations and character), the idea that our loyalty is to the United States above all else, etc... Just not my philosophy of citizenship and not what I want to emphasize as our supreme values).

HTH :).

[kerridean]

I say it and just don't say anything during the "under God" part.

Older DD says the whole thing. I don't know what she really believes yet, and I suspect neither does she. :)

:yeahthat:

[hillview]

I say it.
/hillary

[elliput]

I usually skip "under God". I'm sure DD says the whole thing as that is how she learns. It doesn't bother me because she will be free to make her own religious choices as she becomes mature enough to understand what religion is about.



I don't know anyone IRL who does not believe in God
Chances are you do know several people, but just aren't aware of their choice.

[wellyes]

I say it. To me the pledge is like a traditional song (I do NOT mean that disrespectfully, at all). When I sing along to a song I don't change the lyrics to reflect my own beliefs or my gender or anything like that. I'm not Christian but I sing Christmas carols and am not quiet during the, for example, "holy infant so tender and mild" part of Silent Night.

[BabyBearsMom]

I'm an atheist, and I say the "under god" part. I guess to me, it is just a phrase in the pledge but doesn't really mean anything (to me, I know it means something to others) so I don't mind saying it. I don't care if DD has to say it when she goes to school either. But then again, I also don't care if there is a moment of silence/reflection either, which I know bothers a lot of atheists.

[writermama]

I have a different problem with the pledge. As a patriotic American my allegiance is to the Constitution, not a piece of fabric, however colorful and symbolic. That the pledge to the flag also violates the Constitutionally mandated separation of church and state is simply insult to injury.

I have been through many levels of religious belief in my life, but at all of them I have held the belief, based upon abundant historical evidence, that the separation of church and state is necessary not only for integrity of the state, but for the integrity of faith as well -- money and political power are corrupting influences on religion.

[Carrots]

I am a non-believer and I say the whole pledge. To me, the word "God" is just a word, but I understand that to others, it takes on an entirely different meaning and I respect that. It does not bother me to say the word or to have the word in the pledge, or on currency, etc.

[groundhog74]

I say the pledge but just remain quiet during the "under god" part.

DS says it in school, but I'm sure he really doesn't get what it is saying. He can decide for himself at some point.

[Dream]

I must say that I've never said it. I'm a Buddhist and don't believe in GOD. But wouldn't have a problem saying it if I had to.

[lizzywednesday]

Even as a believer, as now I'm more of a tolerant agnostic with Christian leanings, I felt the "under God" part was less important than the "one nation, indivisible" part.

I haven't said the pledge in years (not since I substitute taught after college) and would have to think about whether or not I'd say the "under God" portion now.

[jammytoast]

I was taught the pledge (in a public school in the '70s!) to be "One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" and still say it that way to this day.

I didn't realize that Eisenhower changed it to read "under god The things one learns from Wikipedia :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

[xmasbabycomin]

Funny, b/c I think you two ladies sound like the opposite ends of the patriotic spectrum, but I identify most w/what you both have said. I'm not patriotic, but I don't think that necessarily has to do w/it. It's semantics...it's about what you're pledging yourself to, (to some) & what it represents. And like it or not, Under God is in there - I bet most people saying it don't know it wasn't originally in there. Totally unconstitutional.


I do believe in God (devout Christian) but I don't believe in "pledging" myself to the flag and am uncomfortable saying it. I'm not a huge patriot in that I can be a good citizen without treating my country as something I worship (I don't agree with the treatment of our Flag as a holy icon, certain members of our society as literal Saints that you hold up and emulate as true heroes (regardless of their individual motivations and character), the idea that our loyalty is to the United States above all else, etc... Just not my philosophy of citizenship and not what I want to emphasize as our supreme values).

HTH :).


I have a different problem with the pledge. As a patriotic American my allegiance is to the Constitution, not a piece of fabric, however colorful and symbolic. That the pledge to the flag also violates the Constitutionally mandated separation of church and state is simply insult to injury.

I have been through many levels of religious belief in my life, but at all of them I have held the belief, based upon abundant historical evidence, that the separation of church and state is necessary not only for integrity of the state, but for the integrity of faith as well -- money and political power are corrupting influences on religion.

[liamsmom]

I have a question. When have you said the pledge as an adult? I can't think of a single time when it has come up outside of school. I think they said the pledge in high school, but by then most of my teachers would ignore it--with the exception of a fantastic US History teacher I had. He made you stand up at least, whether or not you chose to pledge.

Anyway, when I did say the Pledge, I repeated its entirety, although I did believe in God when I did. I don't have a problem with school children learning the pledge, but I think its meaning really ought to be taught. Otherwise, children are just mindlessly repeating what they are told. Of course, if we did that, then we'd have to address the "Under God" part.

[stillplayswithbarbies]

I remain silent during the "under God" part. I like to think that I am remaining conspicuously silent and that everyone around me notices and hope that someone will mention it, but no one ever has LOL

my kids know that I remain silent during that part, and know why, but get to choose for themselves what to do.

[Jo..]

I still am searching for MY God at almost 40, but I have no doubt that God in some form exists. I have no problem declaring devotion and love to my country or God.

I think that remaining silent during "God" is semantics if you believe in any higher power at all.

I love this country. Many of us do not realize how lucky we are to be here.

[cvanbrunt]

It has absolutely zero religious significance to me, was not even part of the original pledge of allegiance but only added during the "red scare" and anti-communist diatribe. I don't mind saying it, there are far more important concerns about separation of church and state. I have no problem saying it, but also would have no problem removing it since it wasn't there originally! The same with "in god we trust" on money, a quaint motto, nothing more.

This is me. I am much more concerned about the 10 commandments being installed in courtrooms and in the public square.

[egoldber]

I have a question. When have you said the pledge as an adult?

It is said often at school functions.

We also say it during Girl Scout ceremonies. Some troops say it at every meeting.

[infomama]

I have a question. When have you said the pledge as an adult?
At work.....without going into further detail.

[JustMe]

I do not say it. Dd's public school did not do the pledge at all her kindergarten year, and starting last school year they now do it once a week (something about having to offer it once a week). Last year her teacher always told the kids it was their choice if they stood and/or said the pledge. I told dd the same thing, that it was her choice. As far as I know, she has always chosen to *not* say the pledge. She does understand why I don't say it, but I suspect she will go back and forth on this issue as she starts to understand the deeper complexity of things.

[Fairy]

Honestly, I just don't care. Or more accurately, I don't have the time to get it in there on the priority list. I'll say the pledge, I don't like the "God" part due to chruch & state, and I think it should be understood by kids why the pledge is there and not just "stand up, put your hand over your heart, now recite." Alot of schools don't bother to give a reason why it's done and what the words mean. But I just have bigger fish to fry. I get the reasons of all the folks here one way or the other, and it does interest me! But for me, personally, and my family, we just have other stuff clogging up the works.

[Laurel]

I have a different problem with the pledge. As a patriotic American my allegiance is to the Constitution, not a piece of fabric, however colorful and symbolic. That the pledge to the flag also violates the Constitutionally mandated separation of church and state is simply insult to injury.

I have been through many levels of religious belief in my life, but at all of them I have held the belief, based upon abundant historical evidence, that the separation of church and state is necessary not only for integrity of the state, but for the integrity of faith as well -- money and political power are corrupting influences on religion.

What she said, pretty much exactly.

In answer to the OP question, I do the pledge and skip "under God". Not because of my religious beliefs, but because I feel strongly about the separation of church and state.

[Laurel]

I have a question. When have you said the pledge as an adult?

I am an elected official (local) and say it regularly at meetings, etc.

[s7714]

I'd bet money there are people you know who are non-believers and you're just not aware of it. Most non-believers I know, myself included, are either afraid to make their honest beliefs known or simply chose to not make issue of it because they know certain people will pass judgment.

Regarding the pledge, I'm honestly not a fan of several segments of wording in it, but for the most part I will say it and just remain silent during the "under God" comment.

[YouAreTheFocus]

I don't believe in god--never have and never will--but I did say the whole thing in school when I was a kid. As the years went by I believe there was some eye-rolling, etc involved ;) I haven't had occasion to say it lately.

[fortato]

I love this country. Many of us do not realize how lucky we are to be here.

Amen to that. (And I'm not religious at all.)
The pledge means so much more than what a lot of people think. At least it does to me.

[xmasbabycomin]

As an adult, I've had to say it in Cub Scouts w/DS and as a teacher...seems like there may be somewhere else but I can't think of it.

And the 10 Commandments...don't get me started! I've left restaurants where I've seen them posted, and that's not even paid for w/our tax money.

[hellokitty]

I say it and just don't say anything during the "under God" part.

Older DD says the whole thing. I don't know what she really believes yet, and I suspect neither does she. :)

Same there here. I am not going to decide for my kids which they should say it, they can decide on their own, but I leave out the god part when I say it.

[ewpmsw]

I stopped saying the pledge in high school. At the time, I wasn't sure how I felt about the pledge or my country. I felt like it was wrong to pay lip service to something so important just to please other people. I'd stand quietly out of respect for the flag and the people around me, but I didn't put my hand over my heart or say the words. I never made a scene out it and I have no idea what happened to bring it to the attention of the teachers (first period was in the gym with something like 150 other students). Somehow, standing quietly ticked off someone and my mother was called. We discussed it and she backed me after hearing my explanation. I told her I hadn't ruled out ever saying it, just that I wanted to believe in what I was saying before letting those words come out of my mouth. I needed time to think about it. I'm planning to encourage my DD's to learn it and handle saying it/not saying it respectfully, but ultimately will let them decide whether they want to say it.

I say the pledge now because I mean it, complete with "under God". I love my country and try not to take the good things for granted. I still don't think it's something anyone should be made to say, and if people disagree with the "under God" part, I support their right to skip it.

[GonnaBeNana]

I do believe in God (devout Christian) but I don't believe in "pledging" myself to the flag and am uncomfortable saying it. I'm not a huge patriot in that way and I wouldn't care if 'under God' were removed from the Pledge anyway as it wasn't inserted until the 20th century as a protection against the atheist Commies ;). Depending on what I believe the 'under God' part means I might say it or be silent during it. So while I don't have a problem with the pledge from the same angle as the OP asked, I can relate to the overall sentiment. I'm glad I work in educational environments where pledging it is not something regularly done (I've never worked in public K-12 schools where it is common).

What I plan to teach my children is what the Pledge says, what it is supposed to mean, and I think they will end up saying it by rote in school and such which is ok with me b/c I think they should learn the pattern before deciding as teens/adults whether to accept it or reject it for themselves. But it won't be emphasized, I won't treat it as a religious prayer or emphasize the civil religion of the US to them as something we hold as a deep belief. I can be a good citizen without treating my country as something I worship (I don't agree with the treatment of our Flag as a holy icon, certain members of our society as literal Saints that you hold up and emulate as true heroes (regardless of their individual motivations and character), the idea that our loyalty is to the United States above all else, etc... Just not my philosophy of citizenship and not what I want to emphasize as our supreme values).

HTH :).

I agree with much of this. I grew up saying the pledge in school (as many of us probably did) and joined the military after college. Of course, the military is going to say it, while standing at attention, saluting the flag, etc. I used to be very patriotic. It used to be something I thought of as part of "being a good Christian." Now, I don't feel that way at all, and I no longer say the pledge. I simply stand quietly while it is said. I've never had anyone question me about it. My change came after doing a "word study" on the word "allegiance." The definition is:

a : the obligation of a feudal vassal to his liege lord b (1) : the fidelity owed by a subject or citizen to a sovereign or government (2) : the obligation of an alien to the government under which the alien resides
2
: devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause

I realized after researching this, as a Christian, I could no longer say the pledge in truth because I will not pledge my allegiance to ANYTHING or ANYONE other than Jesus Christ. I'm not offended by those that do say it, nor am I disrespectful of those that do or don't for whatever reason. It's just a personal choice for me.

I'm quite sure I'll open up a debate here and I'll risk the possibility of being banned as well, but this incorrect belief never ceases to amaze me in a society today that "prides itself" on education and being informed. There are just certain issues that I cannot, in good-conscience, remain silent on, no matter what; and this is one of them.

The pledge to the flag also violates the Constitutionally mandated separation of church and state.

The phrase "separation of church and state is NOT ANYWHERE IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION. The part of the 1st Amendment referring to religion states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

The phrase "separation of church and state" was part of a letter written by Benjamin Franklin to a group of Anabaptists. To ALL of the framers of the US Constitution, God, or the Creator, was understood. This is evident by the statement in the constitution which reads: We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, & the Pursuit of Happiness.

Our nation does not ESTABLISH religion by allowing the free practice thereof, nor by invoking the name of God in documents, practices, etc. Our government does NOT require anyone to practice a particular faith, or any faith at all. Today's government does a pretty good job though of prohibiting the free exercise thereof, by banning any practice of Christianity in public venues, etc. I can guarantee you though that if a Muslim group was banned from meeting in a school for whatever reason, the ALCU, and everyone else would be in major uproar to say the least. I'm NOT singling out Islam either. Just any belief other than Christianity. Christianity is the most attacked/persecuted faith in America today.

I've no doubt I'll get the usual "that's your belief," "that works for you," "whatever," and many other comments, but that's OK. It's not unexpected. At the end of it all though it doesn't matter. God said it, that settles it. One's belief or the lack thereof, doesn't change that at all. It is not my intent to belittle anyone, etc. and I don't want to hurt people. I love all people enough to share the truth though, and make no apology for that, ever.

Beth

[MaiseyDog]

:applause: Beth- Well said. I'll go out on that limb with you. I agree, but could not has said it half as well as you did.

[arivecchi]

In simple terms, the separation between church and state is not directly quoted in the Constitution but the concept is derived from the establishment and free exercise clauses and was further developed and defined by our courts.

The interpretation set forth by the PP above is a strict interpretation of the text of the Constitution which ignores the body of law that has further defined the separation between church and state.

[ncat]

I skip the under God part.

Even if I was a believer, I don't think its appropriate in the pledge. I can't view it as a "traditional song" and recite it in full - it is an oath and I think it should be taken seriously.

I don't think that reciting the pledge is nearly as prevalent as when I was in school. I have mixed feelings about this, both relief and sadness. I'm also sad that at DD's school, the American flag is something to be flown but not (apparently) respected. It is left up all day, all night, all weather. By the end of the year it is in sad shape. I'm not particularly patriotic, but I think flags, pledges, etc. ought to be respected.

[kijip]

I have a question. When have you said the pledge as an adult? I can't think of a single time when it has come up outside of school.


School events for my child
Boy scouting
Democratic Party Meetings
Political Conventions
Government meetings

So fairly often- 12-25 times a year? Depending on how good I am with my political involvement.

[Carrots]

I am an elected official (local) and say it regularly at meetings, etc.

:yeahthat:
I am not an elected official, but I have been to plenty of local government meetings and said it there.

[HannaAddict]

In simple terms, the separation between church and state is not directly quoted in the Constitution but the concept is derived from the establishment and free exercise clauses and was further developed and defined by our courts.

The interpretation set forth by the PP above is a strict interpretation of the text of the Constitution which ignores the body of law that has further defined the separation between church and state.

Thank you. I will not even go there . . .been there with my MIL and other non-lawyers.