PLEASE help/advise me with DD's behavior!!

[Happy 2B mommy]

I haven't been around much for several months. My dad had a stroke in late April and helping him adjust to assisted living/working with therapy and working on getting his house ready to sell has taken up so much of my time, I haven't had much of a chance to "visit" here.

Until recently DD, who will be 4 in November, was an easy toddler/child. She's very bright, affectionate, and independent. But her behavior the last few months has been challenging. I know some of it is because she went from being in preschool/daycare 8 hours a week to being there 25-30 a week.

My concern is that the very personality traits that I have really liked about DD are becoming a concern. I want to curb them, not squash them. Here are examples that most worry me: She wakes up early in the morning while we are still sleeping and decides she is hungry. Sometimes she helps herself to whatever she wants to eat in the pantry -which doesn't really bother me. What DOES bother me is that if she doesn't find what she wants in there, she LEAVES THE HOUSE, goes out to our car (parked in the driveway) and helps herself to the 'snack stash' in there. We live in a really safe neighborhood/small town so I didn't lock the car (I've even left my purse in there). I started to lock the cars and now SHE TAKES THE KEYS. (I've never, never showed her how the remote lock works, she just figured it out.) I have talked to her that this is NOT allowed and she is to wake me up if she wants breakfast (I DO feed her a real breakfast, but I find the wrappers and ask her about them and she tells me what she does) but she would rather 'do it for herself'. I want to explain to her that this is dangerous w/o freaking her out. (I'm less fearful about child abduction than if she decides to go into the street or somehow gets it into her head that she'll just drive to the grocery store because we don't have the juice she wants) Ihave taken away toys/books/ which helps briefly, but hasn't stopped it. While I very, very seldom spank, this is something I WOULD spank her for but I've never caught her in the act.

A new behavior is screaming/crying in the middle of the night. She claims she 'had a bad dream', but most of the time she is just playing us. If DH or I don't lay down and cuddle with her she throws a fit and wakes up DS. If we do cuddle with her, about 15 minutes after we leave she starts up again. She isn't the type who is scared of the dark, she just wants company.

Lastly, DD has never, never been good at saying "I'm sorry". If she does something she isn't supposed to do, she will sit in time out a long, LONG time before she will apologize (40 minutes is her record of just standing/sitting in the corner) She often doesn't look at us when she is apologizing or if we are trying to explain why her behavior is not acceptable or dangerous (like going out to the car alone). Just totally passive/aggressive (when she was really little if she didn't want to do something she wouldn't throw a fit, she would do a 'sit in', just sit down and become dead weight. I think this is the new version of that).

DD is really very compassionate. She is extremely attentive and affectionate to her little brother and if he cries she is right there giving him a toy/singing to him/playing peek-a-boo. She has walked up to other kids in daycare/stores and hugged them if they are crying. One preschool teacher called her "exceptionally empathy" I've thought about trying to use this to help modify her behavior, but I've never been a fan of the "you make mommy sad" sort of thing. (not really sure why, just not my style)

So sorry this is so long. I just need some help here.

[ellies mom]

I can see my youngest heading out to the car to get something she wants. That said, you need to make it so she can't get out of the house. Period. You cannot rely on a three almost four year old to make the right choices on this subject. Spanking isn't going to fix it. You need to make sure she physically cannot get the door open.

The sleeping/screaming thing, I'd try a reward system to get her out of the habit. If she doesn't have a screaming fit, she gets a star. After a certain number of stars, she gets a treat of some sort. You may have to remind her in the middle of the night that if she needs to go back to sleep quietly to get a star. Kind of raise the expectations as she meets them.

And the sorry thing, she may not be sorry. Instead of forcing an apology, talk to her about "making things right" instead. You can make things right, even if you aren't sorry. Many kids find it too intense to look someone in the eye while they are being scolded. I don't know that I would expect that necessarily. You may want to ask her to tell you what she thinks you are saying.

Three and four (especially four in our case) can be really hard ages. Hang in there.

[brittone2]

I can see my youngest heading out to the car to get something she wants. That said, you need to make it so she can't get out of the house. Period. You cannot rely on a three almost four year old to make the right choices on this subject. Spanking isn't going to fix it. You need to make sure she physically cannot get the door open.

And the sorry thing, she may not be sorry. Instead of forcing an apology, talk to her about "making things right" instead. You can make things right, even if you aren't sorry. Many kids find it too intense to look someone in the eye while they are being scolded. I don't know that I would expect that necessarily. You may want to ask her to tell you what she thinks you are saying.

Three and four (especially four in our case) can be really hard ages. Hang in there.
I agree w/ the above two points 100%.

With leaving the house, you might have to put doorknob covers on, deadbolts up high, keys out of her reach. Whatever it takes. She can't be expected to keep herself safe. She can't really anticipate the dangers that could happen to her even if you explain. The environment there just needs to be structured so she can't escape.

Empathy is still developing at this age and so she may not really be sorry. Forcing an apology doesn't make her genuinely sorry anyway, so I personally wouldn't push the apology. We try to focus on making amends and I talk to them about making their heart feel better by making it right w/ the other person.

[Indianamom2]

I don't really know if there is an issue behaviorally or not, but I will also echo what the PP said about making absolutely certain that your ittle girl cannot get out of the house. Hide your car keys, put child-proof locks on the doors/windows...whatever you need to do. Bring in any food from the car so that it isn't even a temptation to go outside. Do what you have to do...her safety is more important than anything else, even if it means you make her REALLY mad.

[Dr C]

I agree about the star chart for the night behaviors.
I also agree about making it impossible to leave the house without you. You could do a chain lock high up. Or if you have an alarm you can set it so that it alarms if the house door is open. Make sure she knows that if she does leave the house without permission, that would be a MAJOR consequence. If it were DS, I would probably take away his bike or something like that.
A thing you could do to encourage her independance would be to set up a little snack station (say a shelf in your pantry) where she is allowed... nay... encouraged to go fix herself a snack. You and she could decide together what (healthy) snacks could go there. You could even decide the night before what she would like to place there for breakfast the next AM (analagous to picking out clothes for the next day the night before). You could make it clear that she is allowed to get food from her shelf, but if you find out that she gets food from anywhere else, then XXX will be the consequence. Ideally it would be a great punishment fits the crime consequence but I can't think of anything perfect--maybe others could chime in.

[brittone2]

I would set out a non messy snack the night before if that's okay with you and then let her know that part of that freedom is not getting into other stuff, etc.

The downside is if there would be any sort of choking, etc. would you be aware of it? Just tossing that out there as something to consider.

I would set her up to succeed, not punish her over the snack or leaving the house :shrug:

Going out to the car should not be an option, period. To me, it is totally pointless to punish the behavior. She's not necessarily going to really get the connection to safety anyway. Kids just don't have that kind of foresight with something they haven't experienced (we can talk about bad things happening but I don't think at that age they are really going to grasp it on a meaningful level).

[Green_Tea]

The car thing: Lock the doors, get an alarm, deadbolt up high - whatever it takes to keep her inside. Take your keys to bed with you so she doesn't have access to them, and lock the car. Take the snacks out of necessary. What she's doing is actually quite resourceful and age appropriate and shows a sense of independence, which are all GOOD things - it's your job to make sure she's safe by making sure she cannot leave the house without your permission.

The nighttime behavior: Make a chart and reward her after several nights with no screaming. Otherwise ignore.

Apologies: Perhaps I am an outlier, but I don't think insincere apologies are something to encourage. I would never insist that my child say "I'm sorry" because perhaps they're NOT sorry. You know how crappy it feels to have another adult apologize to you insincerely, right? It doesn't make things all better. Instead, the child should acknowledge and show that they understand why what they did was wrong and resulted in a timeout and then help to make it right if possible. For example, a dialogue might look like this:

Mom: Sally, do you understand why you had to go to time out?
Sally: Because I painted on the walls?
Mom: Yes. Why is painting the walls a bad idea?
Sally: Because it makes a big mess?
Mom: Right. Are you ready to help me fix the mess?
Sally: OK.
Mom: Great. Thanks for helping me to clean it up. Are you going to paint on the walls again?

Also, insisting upon eye contact from a child who is not yet 4 while they are being chastised is not really a developmentally appropriate expectation. Many adults have trouble maintain eye contact in situation that make them feel uncomfortable.

It does not sound like your daughter is manipulative or passive aggressive, and I'd caution you against assigning such labels to a not even 4 year old. Her behavior sounds age appropriate and typical and she sounds like she's quite bright. Her resourceful nature, independence and willingness to not back down (which many people call "stubborness") will serve her quite well as an adult. They are not attributes that I'd squash.

[hillview]

Yikes!

I think it sounds like she cannot be up without you for a while. I might put a bell on her room door knob or something like that so you wake up when she does. I know it is not nice but really think it sounds like you have such a creative bugger that she needs that. Plan B might be that she plays in her own room (maybe you leave a snack there with her).
/hillary

[maestramommy]

Elliesmom made excellent points. Esp. in regards to the safety issue. Do whatever it takes to make sure she cannot physically get out of the house. Winter is coming and you would not want her wandering out when it's freezing outside.

Can she open the fridge by herself? Maybe you can put breakfast items on a shelf she can reach.

The point about not really being sorry is a great one, and I didn't think about that before. I will be using the advice for my own stubborn 4yo:p

[Cuckoomamma]

I agree with all the other posters. The only thing that I would stress a little more is that it isn't dd's responsibility to stay in the house when everyone is sleeping. I think that while self-monitoring is a great thing to work on and should always be encouraged, from your post, it seems as if you're putting the responsibility for dd's behavior (leaving the house) on her. I really feel that this is your and your partner's responsibility. To me, that's the role of the parent.

For me, it's just an extension of not leaving kids at home alone until a certain age. I have a 5 yo dd and while she's off playing in different parts of the house than I am, I can still hear if she's been quiet a little too long, kwim? She's a very early riser at 5:00-5:30 and I'm not a morning person, so I have sympathy for you.

In the most benign case, I think that completely unsuperivesed time for a 4 yo is going to result in some difficulty with impulse control. Impulse control just isn't the classic characteristic I think of when I think of 4 yo's.

[Happy 2B mommy]

OK. a 1000 lashes with a wet noodle for me. An alarm or bells on the door is such an obvious solution and it never crossed my mind!! (I don't like the idea of locking her in, but will if I have to) I lock up up all chemicals and meds1q, keep knives out of reach, have door covers on the basement doors, outlet covers on the outlets etc all because I DON'T expect DD to know to always keep herself safe from those things. Why "not being able to leave the house" didn't make the child/baby proofing list in my mind is beyond me. Maybe because I don't know of any little kids who leave the house on their own.

Dh and I did discuss rewards for staying quiet at night. A chart is a good idea and probably something DD would really get into.

I havent really thought about the insincere apology thing. When my dad had his stroke a relative who has a daughter close in age to DD took her for several days and she made a point of telling me that she saw the refusing to apologize was passive-aggresive, because her daughter says 'I'm sorry" immediately when she is asked for an apology. And all of our friends' kids have no problem saying "I'm sorry" so DD's refusal to say "I'm sorry" to another child has caused comments to us about our 'lenient parenting". (We are the only parents who don't use spanking as a regular part of discipline)

I just want to make sure I make it clear that I DO see DD's resourcefulness, independence and even her "stubborness" as positive things and I even said in the OP I did not want to squash them. But I needed help in dealing with or stopping the behaviors and that's why I posted.

[Momof3Labs]

Just wanted to say that I have the male version of your DD - she sounds just like DS2. On Black Friday, he let himself out of the garage to follow me on foot (I was driving); that afternoon, DH raised up the button for the garage door about 3 feet so there's no way he can reach it again. I agree with the suggestion to be sure to make breakfast food accessible for her every morning so that she can succeed at getting herself breakfast every morning.

DS2 is very resistant on the "I'm sorry" thing too. I've settled for a kiss where he hit DS1, a hug for the teacher he wouldn't listen to, etc. I think at that age, kids can repeat the words "I'm sorry" but they don't mean anything to them.

You aren't alone!!

[Green_Tea]

OK. a 1000 lashes with a wet noodle for me. An alarm or bells on the door is such an obvious solution and it never crossed my mind!! (I don't like the idea of locking her in, but will if I have to) I lock up up all chemicals and meds1q, keep knives out of reach, have door covers on the basement doors, outlet covers on the outlets etc all because I DON'T expect DD to know to always keep herself safe from those things. Why "not being able to leave the house" didn't make the child/baby proofing list in my mind is beyond me. Maybe because I don't know of any little kids who leave the house on their own.

Dh and I did discuss rewards for staying quiet at night. A chart is a good idea and probably something DD would really get into.

I havent really thought about the insincere apology thing. When my dad had his stroke a relative who has a daughter close in age to DD took her for several days and she made a point of telling me that she saw the refusing to apologize was passive-aggresive, because her daughter says 'I'm sorry" immediately when she is asked for an apology. And all of our friends' kids have no problem saying "I'm sorry" so DD's refusal to say "I'm sorry" to another child has caused comments to us about our 'lenient parenting". (We are the only parents who don't use spanking as a regular part of discipline)

I just want to make sure I make it clear that I DO see DD's resourcefulness, independence and even her "stubborness" as positive things and I even said in the OP I did not want to squash them. But I needed help in dealing with or stopping the behaviors and that's why I posted.

It can be so, so hard when other people are openly critical of your parenting or your child :(. It always makes me doubt myself. I try to remind myself that the fact that they disagree doesn't mean they're right. Your friend's daughter is well trained. That doesn't means she's actually sorry. It also doesn't mean that she understands what she did wrong or that she won't do it again. By helping your child understand the transgression and its consequences, you are increasing your child's chance of learning from the experience. Simply apologizing when they're prompted to (either by a time out or a spanking or a reprimand) doesn't mean they understand. It just means they know how to make the consequence stop.

[Melaine]

I personally don't think it is safe for my almost 4 year olds to be eating while I am asleep. I'm afraid they might choke. I really think she should be able to wait to eat until you wake up. My girls know we don't eat breakfast until after 7, so when they wake up early they come to my room and I help them go to the bathroom and tell them to play quietly until breakfast. Or I just get up.
The apology thing, I really feel that is personality differences. My girls really balk at apologizing also. I think it is an independent, strong-willed trait (which I do not see as a bad thing). IMO, the friends whose children apologize quickly and easily are more likely to just have different personalities than your child, rather than be better disciplined as the parent indicated to you. JMO.