Would you say anything? (yet another school thread)

[egoldber]

My older DD started a new school this year. So far, we love it. She was very nervous before school started, but by the end of the week she was so happy! She loves her teachers (she has two, they team teach at her new school), she says the kids are nice and she has made a new friend. She is happy to go every day and says she has a great time. I really like the way this school is run and so far things are going very well and the transition has been as smooth as possible.

My one little twinge is that she says the work is very easy. Especially math and spelling. She got her first spelling list this week and literally it is words that she would have been able to spell in first and second grade. (She's in 4th grade.) She had MUCH harder spelling words in third grade. Literally, her words are things like "slept" and "breath" and last year she had words like "alacrity" and "remorseless", and this was from the get go, not at the end of the year. They had a way to pre-test out of the easier words to harder words and this year the whole class does the basic words.

She also says that math is very easy. They nominally used this same math text (3rd and 4th grade levels) at her school last year, but they did not use it much. The teacher did a lot of extra material from a different, unofficial text. This year they are using the 5th grade math book, but she says it is all quite easy compared to the outside the box stuff the teacher did last year. (This was the teacher who was so awful to her. He was a dreadul person, but they did do a lot of fun and interesting class work.)

The reason I am asking is that her math teacher asked to meet with me next week "to see how they can best support her and meet her needs". She did not say specifically what she wants to talk about. When I first heard her request, it sounded like she was concerned about DD's math ability. But from what older DD has said, it sounds like she is in the higher math group (there are two) and DH thinks it is pretty unlikely that she is struggling. We have not really seen any graded math work come home yet, other than one test on Roman numerals and she did well on that.

My concern has been that DD still does not have quick recall of math facts. Some teachers really are quite the stickler for this, but she is simply not a quick recall kind of kid and often stresses out on timed multiplication tests. But OTOH, she does VERY well on general math ability tests and standardized math tests. So I don't feel that it really holds her back and for various reasons have decided not to emphasize this with her in order to not stress her out.

So I guess my real question is, should we just learn to live with some subjects being too easy? As long as older DD is engaged and happy at school, I am almost afraid to look a gift horse in the mouth, KWIM? But OTOH, if there is something that can be done, I am wondering if we should ask for it.

Thoughts?

[Ceepa]

Hmm. It could be that DD is working above the level of the higher math group and the teacher wants to discuss alternative coursework for her.

I think early in the school year the teachers are still trying to figure out the abilities of the individual students. During your meeting next week I would ask how the differing abilities are addressed because DD has proven most engaged by challenging work.

ETA: How thrilling that DD is so happy after everything she went through at the other school.

[crl]

Well, I wouldn't say anything about the spelling. It's spelling, you know? Who really cares? Even "hard" words are just memorization. There isn't really anything to engage with anyway. But that may be my personal bias about spelling coming out.

Since the math teacher has asked to talk with you, I would be prepared to bring up that the work this year is easier than last year and that your daughter does best when challenged. Why not? I assume the teacher wants your perspective or she wouldn't have asked to meet with you.

Glad the year is going well!

Catherine

[pinkmomagain]

So glad your dd is happy.
I would use the upcoming meeting with the math teacher as a way to learn more about the cirriculum and to mention that so far your daughter seems to find it easy.
The beginning of the year does start out as review and as a way for teachers to gauge their students' abilities. I might take a wait & see approach on spelling.
On a side note, regarding math facts, I have a 6th grader still struggling. In fact, we just got approved for a mutliplication chart for use in tests on her 504. I am beginning to wonder if dd has some type of a math learning issue, or a recall issue, or if her anxiety gets in the way, or all of the above. Helping her study for a math test recently, I saw that she seemed to grasp the concepts, but the calculations were the problem. I really do wish that I got to the bottom of it a few years ago, but the teachers were not sounding the alarm bells and I had other things on my plate. So I guess I'm sort of encouraging you to get the teacher's perspective and try to investigate this more for your dd to resolve sooner rather than later.

[bubbaray]

Wonderful news that the new school is a good fit for her socially. IMO, that is more important than the academics -- JMHO. I wouldn't worry about the spelling, its just rote learning anyway. As for the math, I would go to the teacher meeting with an open mind.

I really do think the social fit is far more important than anything else and I would really stress that with the teachers.

[egoldber]

Yes, I have emphasized with the teachers VERY much that I am more concerned about social fit than anything else for DD right now. In the first week of school, we had to make a list of our goals for our kids for the year, and my goals for her were all social.

I guess the only thing that bothers me about the spelling is that I have seen that it doesn't have to be rote. She learned a lot last year and also really expanded her written vocabulary by having the more challenging words. So IMO it does not have to be rote and can be very meaningful. But if that is my only complaint, then what a problem to have!

I am curious what the writing will be like this year. They are emphasizing the editing and revising process this year (it's the big thing they work in on 4th grade district wide) so much of her writing work is actually done in class. So I am not seeing a lot of what is happening. They also don't really do reading groups like they used to and will be doing a lot of writing in the form of journals and stories, so that will be interesting to see. I think she will enjoy this more than what has been done in the past.

Pinkmom, the math facts issue has been in the back of my mind for a little while. She *knows* her addition facts and her multiplication facts and can recall them given sufficient time. Her recall seems really slow to me. On the WISC, her scores showed that her processing speed and working memory scores were on the higher end of normal, about 70-80th percentile. But it was MUCH lower than her verbal and reasoning scores, which were very very high. The psychologist who did the test said that this discrepancy in thinking vs recall and processing could feel like a very big deal to her, even though her memory is high normal. So it is something I have had my eye on. OTOH, she got a perfect score on the math section of our state's standardized math assessment last year, so I don't know that it really holds her back in any significant way. She had also done very well on other math ability tests.

I have also noticed that she takes a lot longer than is typical to think of a word or to formulate a thought. For example, she gets called on to answer a question (for which she has raised her hand). Then she pauses for what is really much longer than normal. Other people have commented to me about it and I can see people get frustrated with her. When she does form her thought, she is able to give a fully articulate response. It's just that that gap in time is pretty significant and many times teachers and other children become impatient.

It's a subtle thing, but it definitely has the potential to be troublesome for her I think.

[JustMe]

I am so happy to hear about all of the things that are going well! I would take advantage of the math teacher's asking to meet with you to first hear him/her out about why the meeting was called and what his/he concerns are and then insert your concerns in some way that either fits with that, etc. One way I might try to explain it (and I am not sure if this is 100% true of your dd, but just the general idea) is to say that dd has some "mixed abiliites". She is really advanced in some things, not so much in others, and that can make it difficult to see where she is really at initially.

[pinkmomagain]

I have also noticed that she takes a lot longer than is typical to think of a word or to formulate a thought. For example, she gets called on to answer a question (for which she has raised her hand). Then she pauses for what is really much longer than normal. Other people have commented to me about it and I can see people get frustrated with her. When she does form her thought, she is able to give a fully articulate response. It's just that that gap in time is pretty significant and many times teachers and other children become impatient.

Hmmm...do you think anxiety could play a part?

It's interesting because when I ask my daughter questions she can get very flustered and answer No or I Don't Know right away. But then later, on her own, the answer seems to bubble up to the surface.

[AnnieW625]

I have also noticed that she takes a lot longer than is typical to think of a word or to formulate a thought. For example, she gets called on to answer a question (for which she has raised her hand). Then she pauses for what is really much longer than normal. Other people have commented to me about it and I can see people get frustrated with her. When she does form her thought, she is able to give a fully articulate response. It's just that that gap in time is pretty significant and many times teachers and other children become impatient.

It's a subtle thing, but it definitely has the potential to be troublesome for her I think.

This is me, and I have been like that as long as I can remember. I have never been diagnosed with anxiety it's just one of my quirks. I tend to over think things and make things more complicated than they need to be so then it takes more time for me to formulate an answer.

I would be honest with the teacher about your concerns about her spelling words, and math work.

I had the opposite problem in math and just started not getting it in the 5th grade so the following year it was noted and I was put in a 5th/6th combined class so I could do extra 5th grade math to help with my 6th grade math skills. After that I was always a year behind my peers in math through college. My parents were always very concerned about my skills and how I wasn't getting them so when something wasn't right they always called the teacher and in the end it esp. at the latter stages of elementary school it was helpful.

[arivecchi]

I would bring up your concerns but emphasize how THRILLED you are with her progress on the social front. Glad to hear things are going well!

[jse107]

Pinkmom, the math facts issue has been in the back of my mind for a little while. She *knows* her addition facts and her multiplication facts and can recall them given sufficient time. Her recall seems really slow to me. On the WISC, her scores showed that her processing speed and working memory scores were on the higher end of normal, about 70-80th percentile. But it was MUCH lower than her verbal and reasoning scores, which were very very high. The psychologist who did the test said that this discrepancy in thinking vs recall and processing could feel like a very big deal to her, even though her memory is high normal. So it is something I have had my eye on. OTOH, she got a perfect score on the math section of our state's standardized math assessment last year, so I don't know that it really holds her back in any significant way. She had also done very well on other math ability tests.

I have also noticed that she takes a lot longer than is typical to think of a word or to formulate a thought. For example, she gets called on to answer a question (for which she has raised her hand). Then she pauses for what is really much longer than normal. Other people have commented to me about it and I can see people get frustrated with her. When she does form her thought, she is able to give a fully articulate response. It's just that that gap in time is pretty significant and many times teachers and other children become impatient.

It's a subtle thing, but it definitely has the potential to be troublesome for her I think.

I see this all the time at school with kids who have ADHD or anxiety diagnoses. If the child doesn't have an IEP, we typically address this with a 504 and give extra time to process. The math facts always seem to come later for these kids. In fact, I just met with a parent for the very same reason yesterday! We suggested to keep working on them, but at school we would appropriately allow for a multiplication chart or calculator when we wanted to focus on the problem-solving rather than facts.

It sounds like a lot of the concern is related to executive functioning. Did the psych talk to you about that? I can't remember if you had mentioned that before.

[egoldber]

We've always had executive function concerns with her. The reason we had her evaluated in the first place (this was 2 years ago now) was because her second grade teacher was concerned about ADHD. The psychologist at the time did not think she had ADHD, although she certainly has some ADHD-like behaviors. She mentioned anxious tendencies, but no diagnosis.

Her anxiety was really exacerbated last year by a poor teacher fit and stressful classroom situation. She spent the last year in CBT therapy for anxiety and that has helped a lot. We do have a 504 plan for anxiety. Her therapist thinks if she does have ADHD that it is mild and that the anxiety is primary.

But I am about at the point where I think we should do another evaluation now that she is 9. There is the subtle stuff with the recall and math facts. The hyperactivity is less of an issue now (although still there) but the inattentive/distractability part seems worse.

I didn't realize that we could ask for a multiplication chart on a 504. I will think about that. She completely understands multiplication, but it's like she has a block with some numbers. For example, she can never seem to remember 6x7. But she knows 6x6 and 6x8 and will just figure it out from there. It's just a quirky little thing about her.

And OTOH, she's doing early algebra workbooks at home for fun, KWIM? She'll read a multi-part algebra problem, correctly break it down into the parts, set up the components of 3x + 5 = 20, and then not be able to think of how many times 3 goes into 15.

[luckytwenty]

So glad the new school is a good fit socially. I can't speak to the underlying issues--if there are any--that might be affecting her speed in response, but I can definitely relate to the spelling and math being very easy...and it did occur to me that this could be a beginning of the year review thing and that it eventually will get more challenging. Good luck with it either way!!

[pinkmomagain]

[QUOTE=jse107;2869155]I see this all the time at school with kids who have ADHD or anxiety diagnoses. If the child doesn't have an IEP, we typically address this with a 504 and give extra time to process. The math facts always seem to come later for these kids. In fact, I just met with a parent for the very same reason yesterday! We suggested to keep working on them, but at school we would appropriately allow for a multiplication chart or calculator when we wanted to focus on the problem-solving rather than facts.

It sounds like a lot of the concern is related to executive functioning. [QUOTE]

Thanks for mentioning this, Jen. Good to know, from a mom with an ADHD-inattentive/Anxiety dx'd kid.

[crl]

Somwhat off-topic: Interesting about the multiplication tables. I never learned them. Teacher said I had to, I got stubborn and refused. I learned a few and did the addition to get the rest. I was fast enough that no one caught on. I managed to get a law degree without knowing them, so they aren't strictly necessary. But I wouldn't recommend my stubbornness.

Catherine

[Indianamom2]

Beth,

It is wonderful that your DD is enjoying her new school and feeling better about, well, everything there. That is truly something that has imeasureable worth.

As far as spelling goes, I think I'd let it go for this year. It sounds like she's very bright and taking the emphasis off spelling for a year won't hurt her at all. Likely, your DD is one of those kids who will never struggle with spelling and so it will normally be pretty easy for her. I understand (and agree with) your point about how much more engaging it can be, but this might be one of those times to let something go and allow your daughter to just enjoy fitting in and succeeding, kwim? It can be such a blessing when there is a good fit for a kid with anxiety.

As for the math, I have a feeling the meeting has been set up to discuss how well your DD is doing and maybe discuss ways to challenge her more. If she enjoys math, it never hurts to bring it up.

All in all, I'm thrilled that things are going so well for you both. :cheerleader1:

[jse107]

We've always had executive function concerns with her. The reason we had her evaluated in the first place (this was 2 years ago now) was because her second grade teacher was concerned about ADHD. The psychologist at the time did not think she had ADHD, although she certainly has some ADHD-like behaviors. She mentioned anxious tendencies, but no diagnosis.

Her anxiety was really exacerbated last year by a poor teacher fit and stressful classroom situation. She spent the last year in CBT therapy for anxiety and that has helped a lot. We do have a 504 plan for anxiety. Her therapist thinks if she does have ADHD that it is mild and that the anxiety is primary.

But I am about at the point where I think we should do another evaluation now that she is 9. There is the subtle stuff with the recall and math facts. The hyperactivity is less of an issue now (although still there) but the inattentive/distractability part seems worse.

I didn't realize that we could ask for a multiplication chart on a 504.


Personally, I would have her evaluated again. Just purely based on what you are describing, I would be concerned with the ADD, which can look very much like greater anxiety issues, especially in girls. Have you read Kathleen Nadeau's "Understanding Girls and ADHD"? It's an excellent resource. Dr. Nadeau has an office in Silver Spring. If you could swing it, maybe it's worth touching base with her:
http://www.chesapeakeadd.com/about/kathleen_nadeau.html

From her site:
As Director of the Chesapeake ADHD Center of Maryland, Dr. Nadeau works closely in supervision and collaboration with Chesapeake Associates. In addition, she continues her own clinical practice at the Center, with special interest in working with *gifted adolescents* and adults with ADHD, on career issues related to ADHD, with college and graduate students with ADHD, with women and *girls with ADHD*, and working with writers, entrepreneurs, and artists who struggle with issues related to ADHD.

Anyway, you can include whatever you need to on a 504 Plan. At least we do here! This might prove helpful for you as you think about how to modify a 504 Plan. Ideas for math are listed, including use of calculator or math tables.
http://www.fape.org/pubs/FAPE-27.pdf

[Globetrotter]

I am thrilled to hear she has adjusted well at the new school.

The teacher probably wants to find ways to make math more challenging for your dd. As for spelling, I like the pretest system so kids who need the challenge get it. Has DD complained that spelling is boring? If not, I would probably let it go for now and focus on math.

I also take a long time to process verbally, but I can write out the same thing in no time. I figured it's an annoying quirk of mine, but I also have anxiety that I could be wrong, whereas when I write I know I can always correct it.

Can I just say that our kids are very fortunate to have parents and professionals who are on the ball and aware of their needs? I could have used some of that when I was growing up!

[egoldber]

Has DD complained that spelling is boring? If not, I would probably let it go for now and focus on math.

Well, she has not complained exactly. But she told me after about 2 weeks, "I love my new school but (said in a whisper) it's really easy." She specifically said that the math and spelling are very easy. This week was the first week they had spelling and she told me "I am not going to even have to study because the words are so easy." And honestly, that does bother me to some extent because I *do* want her to learn good study habits.

They also have vocabulary as a different subject and that has much harder words (examples: countenance, visage) but they don't have tests on the spelling of those words, they just have to know the definitions. Last year their vocabulary and spelling were combined.

The Language Arts teacher said she is very eager and engaged in class so I am not necessarily worried about it. But in her old school, she very definitely got "in trouble" when she was bored and finished with her work. But I think they are allowed bonus reading time, whereas at her old school she was expected to remain quiet at her desk without reading a book even when she had completed her work.

I go round and round in my head on the ADHD vs anxiety or both thing. She defintiely has elements of ADHD behaviors. But she always does BETTER and concentrates BETTER when she is given MORE challenging work, even if it's something that she isn't necessarily interested in. She spaces off and gets distracted when she is doing easy stuff. And she is able to plan and self start on longer term project work. I don't know.

[justlearning]

Regarding the spelling words, do you think it would work for you to make up your own advanced spelling tests for her to do at home? That's what my mom used to do with me.

I'm now wondering if I should start worrying more about the fact that my son's class work is very easy for him too (and always has been since K). For example, he's never allowed me to practice his spelling words with him (or look them over himself at home) because he says that he already knows them. Considering that he's always gotten perfect scores on his spelling tests, I've never made him review them with me. I haven't thought about giving him advanced words on my own at home, but now I think I'll start doing that. (Thanks for this thread!) I think it's great that your daughter was able to work on more advanced words last year.

Overall, it sounds like your DD is doing great at that school so I'm so glad to hear that. I hope that she continues to have a great school year.

[egoldber]

Regarding the spelling words, do you think it would work for you to make up your own advanced spelling tests for her to do at home?

:ROTFLMAO: Sorry, I barely have time to breathe at home.

And the lack/ease of homework is kind fo a good thing for us. She's taking two instruments this year ( :dizzy: ) so finding time to work in practices is challenging too!

[Asianmommy]

I think it's reasonable to talk to DD's teacher about the spelling tests. You can even show her the spelling tests from last year so she can see what you're talking about. You can ask the teacher if a challenge list is an option. If not, you could give DD your own spelling lists or have her create her own spelling lists for you to test her on.

In terms of math, it's a good thing that the teacher is asking to speak with you. Just be honest about your concerns and see what she has to offer. If she cannot offer more challenging work, you can provide it at home.

DD is obviously very bright, and even the best schools may not be able to fully accommodate her needs in every subject. As long as she is happy there, I'd continue. But, it can't hurt to let the teachers know that DD finds the work to be easy and to see if they can offer more challenging work.

[g-mama]

They also have vocabulary as a different subject and that has much harder words (examples: countenance, visage) but they don't have tests on the spelling of those words, they just have to know the definitions. Last year their vocabulary and spelling were combined.


Are you immersed in the world of Latin over there, too? I hate to admit it, but some of those Latin words are hard for me to understand! My ds had to take five of the Latin words for the week, find their synonym, and then find a way that the words were *not* the same. Dh and I were boggled by that assignment.

We've not had any spelling words yet this year, so I don't know how ours will be this year.

I am very glad to hear that your dd is happier socially this year - SO important. :)

[mousemom]

How wonderful that your daughter is so happy in her new school! :) If it were me, I would not worry about the spelling at all. I think I remember you posting that she loves to read? As long as she is reading good and challenging books, she will pick up on the vocabulary. English reading/writing was always one of my strengths and I never had to study for vocabulary/spelling tests in school, but I still learned lots of new vocab through my own reading.

[sste]

I am thrilled for your DD! And for you! Both of you very much deserve a less stressful school year.

I am with posters that say don't worry about the spelling - - if she is learning visage this year she will pretty much be ready to take her verbal SAT by fifth grade!

On the math, I suspect the teacher thinks your DD is ahead too. The challenge for both you and the teacher is finding the sweet spot for your DD between anxiety and academic challenge. I would just flat out say this to the teacher - - this has been a real challenge and you would appreciate the teachers' insights. I suspect that your DD may work better if things move incrementally - - or at least this is a strategy I use for my anxious self! So, perhaps the first two months of school are just about making friends and settling in. Then, in November/December the teachers start adding some challenge questions and then after the new year perhaps an accelerated/differentiated math curriculum. This also gives you a nice, easy way to talk to the teacher and kind of insert a placeholder - - i.e., I am not asking for anything/anything major right now because I want DD to settle in and gain confidence but can we meet again in two months and figure out the best way to phase in some more challenging math curriculum for DD.

On math facts, I also had huge issues memorizing the multiplication tables - - oddly, the problem was that I was extremely adept at mental math and could just add, even very high numbers. But, as you note when you move on to more complex math you really need to have that memorized. Could you make a list of the multiplications she doesn't know and spend a full week on each (So, in 3X5 week maybe that is on her placemat at breakfast and you sing it in the car and text it to her on the phone and quiz her on it).

[boltfam]

Hmm. It could be that DD is working above the level of the higher math group and the teacher wants to discuss alternative coursework for her.

I think early in the school year the teachers are still trying to figure out the abilities of the individual students. During your meeting next week I would ask how the differing abilities are addressed because DD has proven most engaged by challenging work.

ETA: How thrilling that DD is so happy after everything she went through at the other school.

Glad to hear that your DD loves her new school and that the social aspect is better. I had the same thought that maybe teacher is just figuring out the students' abilities thus far and will differentiate learning later when she knows the needs. When I say "needs" that refers to above-level children, too, because they need to be challenged more. I agree that maybe that is why DD's teacher wants to talk to you.

Either way, the meeting will be a good thing because you can also explain DD's executive function to her. I don't think it would hurt to have your DD tested again.

I hope the meeting goes well!

[egoldber]

Then, in November/December the teachers start adding some challenge questions and then after the new year perhaps an accelerated/differentiated math curriculum.

Just to be transparent ;), she is already in the higher math group at our local advanced academic center in what is supposed to be an accelerated/differentiated curriculum. That is one reason why I am surprised that things are easier this year. We moved her from our base school to the center and I was worried that she would be behind. But the pace of this class is a bit slower. (She was in a advanced classroom at the base school.)


Are you immersed in the world of Latin over there, too? I hate to admit it, but some of those Latin words are hard for me to understand! My ds had to take five of the Latin words for the week, find their synonym, and then find a way that the words were *not* the same. Dh and I were boggled by that assignment.

LOL! Are they using Caesar's English there too? DH and I are such word geeks. :p I love that they are learning all the Greek and Latin origins of words.

[alexsmommy]

Well, she has not complained exactly. But she told me after about 2 weeks, "I love my new school but (said in a whisper) it's really easy." She specifically said that the math and spelling are very easy.

Honestly, my gut reaction to this after reading your previous posts was, "Good. She needs an 'easy' academic year to put that energy towards her social skills." If she was being completely challenged, she probably wouldn't be able to spend energy catching up socially. She's a very bright girl, I don't think one year of an easy teacher will break her, and due to her social stuff and anxiety, it just might "make" her in terms of school success both academically and socially. I'd probably mention in passing that she found spelling and math pretty easy, but this early in the year, I'd also ask if they were reviewing before jumping into new skills. Then if at the end of the year I was still worried she had somehow gotten behind, I'd find a way to supplement when she didn't already have a 7+ hour academic day and you weren't feeling as rushed.

I so happy this is a better match for her. Not all parents are as aware and diligent as you were about their child's needs. She's a lucky girl.

[egoldber]

FWIW, I'm not really particularly concerned with her being behind. It's more that in the past, when not appropriately challenged, she has acted out in school.