Magnet Schools Orientation: What to ask and other issues

[MommyofAmaya]

Some background: We cannot consider sending our kids to our zoned school. In our district, we have the option of applying to GT schools (where testing is required) and to any number of the dozens of elementary magnet schools in the city (with wide range of emphasis and quality, including several Montessori schools). Although I am a product of one of the GT high schools, I'm concerned about the amount of homework/stress put on the younger kids. I wish they would test the students before applications are due so parents know whether to even bother with investing time with the GT schools.

If a student doesn't qualify for GT, you apply to as many magnet programs as you desire and hope that your kid ends up getting chosen in the lottery. A nearby Montessori just got a huge grant for new materials/training, but it is an a rough neighborhood and suffers from an extreme lack of diversity. The "it" schools get hundreds of applications for every spot.

Anyway, if you are still reading this bit of ramble, please advise on questions to ask at the Orientation. We are interested in about 15 schools. I will be asking questions about the admissions process and about the amount of homework. It almost seems like a waste of time inquiring about specific programs, etc. b/c there is only a small chance that you are chosen at each school.

Does anybody else have a crazy public school application process like this? Any strategies you would like to share?

[codex57]

What Orientation are you talking about? It can't possibly be for an orientation to cover ALL the schools, right? Just sort of a general orientation for the whole process?

If so, I'd just concentrate on what they're looking for. Try and get in. Not exactly sure what you're asking for.

Tackle the problem bit by bit. What can you control the most. Worrying about too much homework and stress seems like putting the cart waaaaayyyy before the horse when it's so hard to even get into these GT programs. Cuz you can always pull out of those schools.

As far as I can tell, it sounds like you should ask some examples of subject level difficulty to see if your kid can hang. Maybe ask for a sample day's lesson plan. Typical amount of homework (might change depending on the individual teacher, but you can't control for that). Other than that, just see what your kid needs to be doing to be able to qualify. Since they test, they should let you know general subjects and stuff.

Your kid either passes the test or not. Concentrate on figuring out if your kid has a chance at passing or not. If it's in the future, you can start preparing. After that, it's a lottery so not much you can do. If they fail to win the lottery, you're down to zoned school or private. Either way, concentrating on anything beyond the test seems like a waste of time.

[MommyofAmaya]

What Orientation are you talking about? It can't possibly be for an orientation to cover ALL the schools, right? Just sort of a general orientation for the whole process?

If so, I'd just concentrate on what they're looking for. Try and get in. Not exactly sure what you're asking for.

Tackle the problem bit by bit. What can you control the most. Worrying about too much homework and stress seems like putting the cart waaaaayyyy before the horse when it's so hard to even get into these GT programs. Cuz you can always pull out of those schools.

As far as I can tell, it sounds like you should ask some examples of subject level difficulty to see if your kid can hang. Maybe ask for a sample day's lesson plan. Typical amount of homework (might change depending on the individual teacher, but you can't control for that). Other than that, just see what your kid needs to be doing to be able to qualify. Since they test, they should let you know general subjects and stuff.

Your kid either passes the test or not. Concentrate on figuring out if your kid has a chance at passing or not. If it's in the future, you can start preparing. After that, it's a lottery so not much you can do. If they fail to win the lottery, you're down to zoned school or private. Either way, concentrating on anything beyond the test seems like a waste of time.

Thanks for your response. My apologies for not being more specific. It is an "orientation" to the magnet school process AND to the 100+ magnet programs across the district. All the schools will have representatives there to answer questions about their specific admissions process and programs.

To clarify, the GT program (called Vanguard here) requires testing for entrance to those 3 elementary schools. The other 12 or so schools we are interested in are magnet (ie. fine arts, literature, dual language, etc.), and admit non-zoned kids in most circumstances via lottery only.

Whew, I'm confusing myself. Your advice to emphasize on the test is interesting. I never considered preparing DD other than explaining to her what was going to happen. Maybe I am naive, but I was thinking she was either gifted or not.... no preparation necessary.

[codex57]

Whew, I'm confusing myself. Your advice to emphasize on the test is interesting. I never considered preparing DD other than explaining to her what was going to happen. Maybe I am naive, but I was thinking she was either gifted or not.... no preparation necessary.

Ha. Not in America. The bar is VERY low here. I'm just being honest. You can absolutely train yourself to become "gifted" by training for the tests. All those SAT prep courses (and anything like it) does exactly that. When those standardized tests come around, some districts or teachers just concentrate on teaching their kids what's gonna be on the test. In some cases, they're able to find out exactly the questions that are gonna be on the test (yes, cheating) and teach the students how to answer those particular questions.

In some other threads, moms here from some more competitive areas complain about how crazy other parents get in trying to get a leg up when the kids are just in preschool. Or younger.

Kinda surprised they haven't chimed in. I dunno the exact testing process in your area, but the general idea is the same everywhere. Kinda sucks, but if the alternative is some horrible school, you gotta play the game.

Kinda surprised the Orientation covers that much. That's kinda crazy. Not practical. Should be split over a couple days at least.

Ok, I got a better sense now of how things are. You still break it down.

For the Vanguard program, find out the testing process. Or at least what subjects they expect kids to know. Division? Fractions? See if you can get a sample question out of them. "Just to see if my child is on track" if they ask. Hopefully someone else can think of a better line. I'd prolly spend a considerable amount of time with these folks (if you can) because it sounds like they're your first choice.

Since there are too many magnet programs, you gotta narrow it down before speaking to them. Ideally, you could interview them all before narrowing it down, but I don't think that's possible. You said it's not 100% lottery? Find out how to get in that way. Other than that, I'd just briefly get an idea of what their program is like. The fewer magnet programs you have to talk to, the more time you can spend trying to get a sense of what they're like and if it'll fit your child. Course, that also means you might miss talking to a program that is a great fit. Gotta pick your poison. Still, remember that since lottery means you don't have much shot, concentrate on the part where you can sort of have some control and if the program is worth applying for.

[MommyofAmaya]

The testing for kinder consists of Woodcock-Johnson III and Wechsler Nonverbal Scale of Ability. I honestly haven't really researched these but you've made it obvious that I should probably find out what they are about... testing doesn't begin until January, so I have time.

Initially, Vanguard was my first choice, but as the time approaches the idea of additional homework/stress is a concern which is leading me towards Montessori. I will try to dedicate my time tomorrow to to those two programs. Time-management is not my specialty, so it will be nice to have a plan during the madness.

Thanks!

[codex57]

Good luck!

If it's January, you've still got time. The crucial thing is figuring out what those tests are (I have no idea either, sorry) and see if you can wrangle up some practice tests. I'm a believer in practicing old questions. Never believed in Kaplan and how they made up their own questions which should approximate what real test questions are like. If the old questions are public and no real changes have occurred, the old questions should prepare you the best. You do need to start right away. Ideally, you want 3 months of practice, but you can make incredible gains with just 1 month.

Montessori is good. DS is doing it. Seems to be doing well. Hopefully someone more experienced will chime in cuz I've always wondered if kids with certain personalities do better with it than others. I've always suspected that I wouldn't do well in it even tho my sister did, but maybe that's simply cuz I was never introduced to the concept at the proper (young) age. By the time my mom discovered Montessori, only my sister was in their "ideal" starting age. I was fairly along the public school train for a standardized test mentality.

That's why I know you can train for those standardized tests. I've been doing it since Kindergarten. My public school district was small, but at the magnet high school I ended up at, pretty much EVERYONE was an expert at training for those tests. I don't mean to scare you, but the more you train, the better the score you can pull off. Doesn't matter what your actual understanding of the subject matter is (what a lot of critics point out about standardized tests). My math skills are actually fairly atrocious (I never took calculus or even pre-calc, or physics, and by all rights should have failed chem) but because I was good at training for tests, I either did all right or even excelled. I was able to get a SAT math score about the same as my verbal when really my verbal is MUCH stronger. Anyways, my mom had plans to prepare me for the SAT since 7th grade. She even let me go to some John Hopkins summer camp thing, but I took etymology over other more normal sounding courses because it would help me with SAT vocab words. I'm sure other parents were preparing their kids for the SATs even earlier.

[codex57]

Just curious, but does H-town mean Houston, Tx?

[baymom]

I live in the California Bay Area and was really surprised when I went through this experience with choosing a school for DS last year. Our neighborhood school was unacceptable to us and I toured every.single.school in our district. We, too, have magnet schools, including montesorri and two language immersions, as well as traditional schools.

Well, as it turned out, each of the magnet schools was located in the less desirable parts of town and had the lowest API scores and the least active PTAs. It felt like they were encouraged by the school district to apply for magnet 'status' simply in order to have access to the federal dollars that comes to magnet schools. The other schools only got state and local monies as well as what their PTAs raised (in some cases A LOT from PTAs). Magnet schools get federal, state and local funds. One magnet school even changed the 'theme' of their school once the grant period for the first 'theme' was completed so that they became eligible for a second grant.

I went into the process thinking that the magnet schools would be really special, but was quiet disillusioned by them. We ended up choosing a non-magnet school on the other side of town. While it has high API scores, they are not the highest in the district. What was really important to me was how active the PTA was.

An active PTA can mean that they raise money (or find volunteers) to do a lot of extras for your school. At our school, DS has PE everyday as well as weekly library, computers, garden and music. In addition, they have optional 'enrichment' during lunch that he didn't want to participate in. The options were Spanish, chess, karate, ect. So, as you do your research and take your tours, be sure to ask about the PTA!

[codex57]

Thank you for that story, baymom. I kinda got that sense with some magnet schools, but really couldn't put my finger on it since I'm not actively looking yet. Everything just crystallized for me.

[MommyofAmaya]

Thanks for your response Baymom. We certainly have the same problems here, and it takes some research to figure out those with real magnet programs (typically in more wealthy neighborhoods) and those that are "magnet" in name only (everywhere else). There is an extreme discrepancy in the amount of funds distributed to the magnet schools across the district. The funding process as well as the ridiculous admissions process (where principals are known to hand-pick some students) are currently under review.

Codex, yes we are in Houston. I'll have to think long and hard about prepping for the test. I might prefer to end up in the decent public Montessori in a rough neighborhood than in a difficult program that she isn't even "qualified" for. You've definitely given me food for thought.

As for the orientation, this was our second year attending, so after meeting a couple of administrators from schools we were previously not considering, we've managed to "narrow down" our schools (still 15 total).

[KpbS]

I sent you a PM.

[egoldber]

We don't really have any magnet schools here, so I've never explored that process. But my older DD is in one of the gifted "center" schools in our district. It's been pretty life changing for her this year. And I've read a fair amount on gifted education and gifted classroom education, so I can try to answer some of your questions there, if you like. I wasn't clear from your post if all kids are tested for the gifted program (which is how our district does it) or if you or someone else has to request the testing.

I know that people here do sometimes prep their kids for the test, but the vast majority do not. I had not even heard of that until my older DD was already eligible, which I guess goes to show perhaps how naive I was.

[MommyofAmaya]

We don't really have any magnet schools here, so I've never explored that process. But my older DD is in one of the gifted "center" schools in our district. It's been pretty life changing for her this year. And I've read a fair amount on gifted education and gifted classroom education, so I can try to answer some of your questions there, if you like. I wasn't clear from your post if all kids are tested for the gifted program (which is how our district does it) or if you or someone else has to request the testing.

I know that people here do sometimes prep their kids for the test, but the vast majority do not. I had not even heard of that until my older DD was already eligible, which I guess goes to show perhaps how naive I was.

If you apply to a GT Kinder, you must request testing and qualify before enrollment. The district tests everybody in 1st grade, but if you miss entry in Kinder it is nearly impossible to get in later grades b/c of retention. Our district tends to have higher GT rates than others (13%-15%) so it is even less of a "reach" to get into those programs.

I will definitely be back with questions regarding GT after she is tested. I don't want to get to start getting attached to the idea unnecessarily.

Applications are accepted starting tomorrow, Nov 8. Testing is in January and admissions letters are sent in late March. I'm sure I will be back desperate for advice at that time... unless we "win the lottery" and get into the one very successful Montessori school in a nice area.

[azazela]

The testing for kinder consists of Woodcock-Johnson III and Wechsler Nonverbal Scale of Ability. I honestly haven't really researched these but you've made it obvious that I should probably find out what they are about... testing doesn't begin until January, so I have time.

Initially, Vanguard was my first choice, but as the time approaches the idea of additional homework/stress is a concern which is leading me towards Montessori. I will try to dedicate my time tomorrow to to those two programs. Time-management is not my specialty, so it will be nice to have a plan during the madness.

Thanks!

I know little about magnet schools and gifted talented programs but I do know about the tests you're referencing. You will not be able to find old tests for these as another poster was suggesting. These are individually administered measures. The WJ-III is a measure of academic ability, measuring reading (decoding, comprehension and fluency), math (calculation, problem solving and fluency), writing (spelling, written expression and fluency), listening comprehension and oral expression. The test is the same for all ages but each test-taker is compared to same-age (or same-grade) peers. WNV is a measure of nonverbal cognitive ability. I personally think it's an odd choice of test for this purpose. Is the population in your city very linguistically diverse (I didn't look where you're from)? This is typically a cognitive measure used for individuals for whom English is not the primary language or for individuals with verbal skills deficits. For a linguistically diverse population a test like this would give a more equal footing to children for whom English is not a native/primary language. I can try to answer any specific questions you may have, however I can not share sample questions or anything of the like. HTH! :love-retry:

[codex57]

If there are no sample questions, then while it does make it a bit harder to study for the tests, it's not impossible. Azazela listed all the subjects. You just gotta practice those subjects. Doesn't have to be workbooks or boring things like that. There are ways to make it fun. Takes a lot of parental involvement though.

[egoldber]

Truly, I would not worry about the prep. I don't know of anyone personally who prepped for these types of tests.

The only thing I would be slightly concerned about is the test format.
Are those tests given one on one or in a group setting? Some kids do freak out when they first take a standardized test in a group. My older DD did to some degree. They give two tests here (not those two) and she did extremely well on one and OK on the other. It turns out they read the questions to the kids on that test and she is not really a good auditory processor and I think it was confusing to her. The other was a nonverbal ability test (the Naglieri or NNAT) which is like a series of visual logic puzzles. That is totally her strength area :ROTFLMAO: so she did very, very well on that one.

[MommyofAmaya]

Azazela: We do live in an overwhelmingly multicultural district (90% minority, more than 50% Hispanic) so perhaps that test is administered in response to that.

egoldber: The testing for kinder is individual. Different tests are used for older children (including the Naglieri) and at least some of that is in a group setting.

I toured the Montessori school in the rough neighborhood today and it was not bad. Only 15 minutes a day of recess for the little ones was disappointing news, however.