loud, physical 3-year old

[LBW]

My youngest has been a challenge since the day I found out I was pregnant. He's 3 now, and is by far the most difficult child for me to deal with.

Here's what he's like now.

1) Very physical. He wants to be on me all the time. He wants me to carry him or pick him up. When I do he thrashes around. If I'm standing in a room and he enters the room, he runs into me at full speed. He weighs 35+ lbs, so none of this is pleasant. He's also very rough with our dogs and cats. His "petting" is more like hitting. We have to watch him around them constantly.

2) Loud. He does not know how to be quiet. The minute he wakes up (6-6:30 AM) he starts yelling. He's constantly yelling and making noise.

3) Defiant/extremely stubborn. I think much of this is fairly typical 3-year old behavior, but he doesn't ever want to listen. "NO" is his favorite word. Nothing is easy. He doesn't want to help clean up his toys, go to bed, brush his teeth, sit down for meals, leave the house, etc.

4) Hitting. This goes along with #1, I think. He hits, scratches, and (rarely) bites my 4-year old, and sometimes my 8-year old. Sometimes he does this when he wants to get his way (over a toy, etc). Other times he seems to just want to start something.

Most of this behavior is limited to his time with us. Thankfully he's great at my sitter's house and at school. This gives me hope that there are at-home triggers that we can change. But, it's also so disheartening. I honestly dread the first yells from his room in the morning and cannot wait until he goes to bed at night. I don't like taking him places, and I don't like playing with him, reading to him, etc. Sad, right?

I've read lots of parenting books and tried many different things. About 6 months ago, for instance, we started 1-2-3 magic with timeouts in his room. I see no difference other than he has destroyed his door by kicking it after I close it. In an hour of play time, he probably spends at least 20 minutes in time out.

As you can imagine, this is emotionally and physically exhausting for me. I just do not know what to do.

[o_mom]

Did I post this in my sleep?

Seriously, that is my DS3 to a 'T'. I don't have any advice as we are at our wits end here. I'll be watching this thread for ideas.

[brittone2]

I wish I had a fail-safe solution for you, but I would try:

Lots of physical activity. Jumping, beanbags to crash on if you have a safe area for that kind of play.

For the loudness, it won't work overnight but you could *try* playing games with voice modulation. Have him go outside and show you a "10" voice. Then a "1" and see if he can give you a 4 or a 5. That might be a little complex for his age but you could introduce it and start working toward helping him learn the difference (make it fun). Eventually you'd hope to be able to say, wow, you are using your 10 voice. Can you show me a 3?

If that's too complex you could try relating it to animals...mouse voice vs. a lion?

When they get really loud, sometimes whispering to them causes them to quiet down. Sometimes ;) So the louder he gets, the quieter you get. See if he'll mimic even without you saying anything?

eta: DD would hit/bite, etc. with DS1 sometimes at that age. It has gotten better in the last 6-9 months. I did a lot of work with DS1 to not get into her personal space (a trigger for her...he would get all in her face sometimes and she'd lash out). We worked on how to ask older brother for a turn, how to assertively tell him that she didn't like something he did without hitting (stomp your foot and firmly tell him 'i don't like that!" or "I need space!". She needed alternatives that could get her what she wanted (or give her a better shot of getting it) besides hitting/lashing out.

The no and defiance...so part of 3, but not fun. Playful Parenting (when I can get myself in the mood!) works the best with DD when she's like that.

[Katigre]

He sounds sensory seeking. I would start with doing a lot of large muscle activity and things that give him feedback (dragging heavy items around, try a backpack loaded with some books, a swing, wrapping him in a blanket and rolling him back and forth, sending him to play in the snow, etc...) The more you can meet his sensory needs, the easier it will be for him to modulate his responses otherwise b/c he'll have burned off some of his energy.

I would eliminate ALL food dyes - any food item that has FD&C coloring should not be given to him. See how his behavior changes after two weeks of total elimination - I know a few people with overly-active kids who saw big changes as a result of this.

Have you read any books specifically on sensory issues?

[lmh2402]

i swear, my next thread was going to be asking whether this behavior with DS was just a "phase"

difference is, my DS is 20 months

but he is EXACTLY the same. exactly.

this morning he greeted me by throwing a fork full of french toast and syrup at me across the room b/c his dad had said "no," to turning his cup of milk over.

for DS, these days, "no" = major lashing out.

my patience is so thin that by 8am, i'm ready to call it a day and dream of finding someone to come relieve me so i can go back to bed and cry.

so i will be watching for ongoing advice...hoping it can be applied to the younger set.

hugs to you

[Indianamom2]

Well, except for the hitting and biting (and we've had a small amount of hitting from time to time, but I'd actually describe it more as lashing out), this describes my 6 yr. old DD.

I have come to the conclusion (on my own, but it all fits) that she has sensory processing issues. She runs full-tilt into us. She is and always has been very rough with us and the animals. She is LOUD and always has been. Challenging is a kind way to describe some days. She is absolutely mentally and physically exhausting, yet if you met us walking in the mall, you would never guess this. She can behave VERY nicely. At home, she just can't hold it in anymore and it is rough.

I don't have any answers, but I will say that what you wrote really resonates with me because it sounds so very familiar. DD just needs much more of Dh and me. I don't know how else to describe it. She always has and I think always will.

[bubbaray]

Have you had his hearing checked? Could that be why he yells???

[LBW]

Have you had his hearing checked? Could that be why he yells???

His hearing is fine. It's checked at nearly every physical. He had severe reflux as a baby, and screamed nearly every moment he was awake. So, I think he's just used to it!

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions - keep 'em coming! I'm going to start reading about sensory issues. That may explain his need to be so physical all of the time. Am also going to look into the food dye issue.

[mctlaw]

He sounds sensory seeking. I would start with doing a lot of large muscle activity and things that give him feedback (dragging heavy items around, try a backpack loaded with some books, a swing, wrapping him in a blanket and rolling him back and forth, sending him to play in the snow, etc...) The more you can meet his sensory needs, the easier it will be for him to modulate his responses otherwise b/c he'll have burned off some of his energy.

Have you read any books specifically on sensory issues?

:yeahthat: DS (4 1/2) has a classmate exactly like this. Having read up on it because my DS has some subtle sensory issues but they are on the opposite end (sensory avoidance), this is just my opinion. I know DS's classmate's parents are having him evaluated but I don't know them well enough to know the specific outcome.

[dogmom]

Does he go to preschool? If so what do they say about his behavior there? Honestly if it is concerning to you now I would (1) bring it up to your pediatrician and (2) contact your local school district's early education program to get him evaluated for any cognitive issues that might be making life more challenging for him. I think it is wise to get the full assessment available to you instead of trying to figure it all out for yourself. Not to label your child, but to help sort out all the strategies out there so you don't waste your time and energy on ones that might not be as good as others. I agree that sensory stuff sounds like it may be an issue. But he also sounds like kids I know where that isn't the main issue. You obviously know something is up, it sounds like you need help sorting it all out. You also don't have to agree with everything someone winds up saying to you.

[LBW]

Does he go to preschool? If so what do they say about his behavior there?

He's very well behaved at preschool and at my sitter's house. (I WAH fulltime, so he's at preschool or the sitter's most days.) Honestly, I think a lot of it is habit - this is just how he is used to acting around me, his father, and his brothers. Preschool is new this year, and a completely different environment, so he behaves there. Same with the sitter.

I am happy that he exhibits self control outside the house, but I wish I got to experience a little of that, you know? And I don't know how to break him of the habits at home.

The loudness and physicality has been there from day 1. He had terrible reflux when he was a baby, and he screamed nearly every waking moment. Because he was so uncomfortable all the time, he never cuddled. He was always pushing and kicking - even when I was feeding him. So, I think he just associates me, and home, with these behaviors. There are probably some sensory issues mixed in, but he seems to be able to control them enough outside the house.

In a situation like this, would you push for an eval?

[Katigre]

There are probably some sensory issues mixed in, but he seems to be able to control them enough outside the house.
Which means that once he's home his 'self control' is probably used up for the day and he lets loose in the safest pace.

[Gracemom]

My 4 year old DS is a lot like this, but has gotten better recently. A book that really helped me understand him is The Explosive Child: http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustrated-Chronically/dp/0061906190/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291859484&sr=8-1.
So much of that book described him, and helped me understand him, and therefore empathize with him. I feel like I have so much more patience with him now, and I am trying to help him develop in the areas where he struggles so much. The book talks about why time out doesn't really teach kids like this much, and gives alternatives that are hard to think about when you're in the middle of dealing with a kid like that. Good luck! You are definitely not the only one with a child like him.

[daisymommy]

He sounds sensory seeking. I would start with doing a lot of large muscle activity and things that give him feedback (dragging heavy items around, try a backpack loaded with some books, a swing, wrapping him in a blanket and rolling him back and forth, sending him to play in the snow, etc...) The more you can meet his sensory needs, the easier it will be for him to modulate his responses otherwise b/c he'll have burned off some of his energy.

I would eliminate ALL food dyes - any food item that has FD&C coloring should not be given to him. See how his behavior changes after two weeks of total elimination - I know a few people with overly-active kids who saw big changes as a result of this.

Have you read any books specifically on sensory issues?

A HUGE :yeahthat: Total sensory behavior. Read "The Out of Sync Child".

And a great website with a test you can do: http://www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/sensory-processing-disorder-checklist.html

[daisymommy]

The loudness and physicality has been there from day 1. He had terrible reflux when he was a baby, and he screamed nearly every waking moment. Because he was so uncomfortable all the time, he never cuddled. He was always pushing and kicking - even when I was feeding him.


This was because he started out as a sensory challenged child. It's not that he associates YOU with those bad times as a baby.

Most colicy babies are sensory challenged. My DS with reflux and colic hasn't changed one bit since he was a baby. He has ADHD and sensory processing disorder. A specialist told me they are now starting realize that one of the reasons for colic is sensory processing issues beginning at a young age (can't handle touch, lights, sounds) and they never really outgrow it.

If it helps to sum it up in a nutshell (short explanation) they do not have awareness of their own body in space. Like if you were in a huge character costume (like at an amusement park) and you couldn't feel exactly where your body's boundaries were, couldn't exactly tell if you were bumping into something, how fast or slow you were moving. Also, if you had ear plus in and your couldn't tell how loud you were talking so you would be talking really loud without realizing it. That's one part of sensory processing disorder.

But also, it takes much more sensation to "feel" everything (for sensory seeking kids). For sensory defensive kids it takes only a little bit. And they can be seeking at one age, defensive at another (like infancy). Also defensive to some things like food and textures, but seeking for movement.
For sensory seeking kids like your son their internal monitor needs more stimulation to feel "right" in their brains and in their own skin. So therapy and home excersices help give appropriate "input" so their sensory "tank" is filled up and they don't feel the need to do everything LOUD, FAST, HARD! (Lol!) But it takes time. It never goes away completely.

I would certainly get an eval.

[Indianamom2]

This was because he started out as a sensory challenged child. It's not that he associates YOU with those bad times as a baby.

Most colicy babies are sensory challenged. My DS with reflux and colic hasn't changed one bit since he was a baby. He has ADHD and sensory processing disorder. A specialist told me they are now starting realize that one of the reasons for colic is sensory processing issues beginning at a young age (can't handle touch, lights, sounds) and they never really outgrow it.

If it helps to sum it up in a nutshell (short explanation) they do not have awareness of their own body in space. Like if you were in a huge character costume (like at an amusement park) and you couldn't feel exactly where your body's boundaries were, couldn't exactly tell if you were bumping into something, how fast or slow you were moving. Also, if you had ear plus in and your couldn't tell how loud you were talking so you would be talking really loud without realizing it. That's one part of sensory processing disorder.

But also, it takes much more sensation to "feel" everything (for sensory seeking kids). For sensory defensive kids it takes only a little bit. And they can be seeking at one age, defensive at another (like infancy). Also defensive to some things like food and textures, but seeking for movement.
For sensory seeking kids like your son their internal monitor needs more stimulation to feel "right" in their brains and in their own skin. So therapy and home excersices help give appropriate "input" so their sensory "tank" is filled up and they don't feel the need to do everything LOUD, FAST, HARD! (Lol!) But it takes time. It never goes away completely.

I would certainly get an eval.

Thanks for this. I've never heard it put that way before. We're just starting to explore what might be happening with DD (well, sort of) but she is exactly like you describe and was also a VERY colicky, non-stop-crying kind of baby.

[ray7694]

I can't imagine going through what you describe. If it were me I would have a full psychological exam.

[MamaKath]

Sounds like my youngest! Hang tough mama and don't be disheartened!!! You have gotten lots of great advice. My top things that have made changes were:
*Heavy work (jumping, pushing, pulling, etc.)
*Swinging (We got a hammock swing for indoors as well as some outside)
*Jumping, galloping, running
*No food dyes...Feingold diet (food dyes rock his world! and not in a good way)
*Reading Carol Stock Kranowitz's book The Out-of-Sync Child and also The Out-of-Sync Child Has Fun. Both changed my world as far as understanding him and empowering me to be a better mom to him.
*Being flexible and choosing my battles. Some things are not worth the fight...really!
*Practicing my responses to situations so I don't escalate in my own reactions during the heat of the moment. Me staying calm makes everything go more smoothly.
*Routine, routine, routine- we have gone through times were keeping everything "on schedule" was completely key to getting back on track. Eventually we were able to bring more flexibility into our lives.
*A support system for you- helps when you are ready to lose your mind!!! BBB is great for that. ;)

My son ended up also being assessed and getting OT (he has SPD/ADD). It helped a lot in my understanding him, finding ways to help him through some of his frustrations and challenges that I couldn't before, and in his individual growth. Helping him has provided me some of my most difficult challenges, but also amazing satisfaction as he learns how to manage himself in situations he couldn't before. GL! I hope you are quickly able to get him onto a better track. :)

[MamaKath]

There are probably some sensory issues mixed in, but he seems to be able to control them enough outside the house.

In a situation like this, would you push for an eval?
I would. I was this kind of kid. Holding it together outside the house took everything in me at times. I usually would completely melt down at home!!! Now that I teach, I realize lots of kids are like this, not just sensory sensitive ones. I often tell moms and dads that it is partly because the kid knows you will love them, no matter what. Me? They think I will, but who really wants to find out if I wouldn't and then still come to school every day. ;) When a parent is concerned though and indicates that it is more than occasional, it is daily and extreme, I always suggest having an eval done.

HTH~

[kbud]

I'm sorry. I totally understand though and feel for you. You pretty much described my oldest dd. She is now almost 7 and an almost different child than she was. She too had severe reflux. Our turning point was around 5 when she entered kindy. I did have her eval at 4 and she passed with flying colors. I chaulk it up to her personality. I wish I had good advice but I don't except in my experience it does get better. She is still very loud, active, and wild at times. I found she needed constant stimulation. I actually thing I should have had her in more things when she was younger. I am a SAHM and she literally had me in tears multiple times a day. I had a degree in Human Dev. and Family Studies and she proved everything I had learned about kids wrong. She did well in preschool there (if we could make it there as she often refused to get dressed). Her behavior was always best when we were at theme parks (we live near orlando so we frequent Disney) and traveling. It was like the world didn't spin fast enough for her at home. She needed constant stimulation and if it wasn't happening she made the stimulation herself. She rarely sat down just ran and climbed around yelling constantly. She is thriving now in school.

Hugs to you as i "get" it. Those who have never experienced such a child don't "get" it and assume it's you. It's not. Just know you are not alone and in my experience there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

[n2ou]

Yeah that ... on the sensory seeker.

Most people always think the sensory kids are the ones who DON'T like noises, touch, crowds. The Hyper versus Hypo only becomes clear when one diggs further into the topic.