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PGTB
12-20-2010, 03:17 PM
DS is 8 months and since he was 3 months he slept for 6 hours straight maybe only about 3 times. The rest of the time it's been an ongoing ordeal, him waking up every 2 hours on average. Below are his night time sleep patterns for the last 5 months.

A good night (very rare):
DS would wake up every 3 hours and go to sleep easily after a short nursing session. Then he would wake up for the day around 5-6:30am. Sometimes I would be able to "convince" him to sleep longer if he would wake up at 4-5 am and think the day should start. I would put him into our bed and lay down nursing him till he nods off to sleep again for another hour giving us extra time to sleep.

An average night:
DS wakes up every 2 hours to nurse and goes to bed within 10-15 min after waking while nursing. Sometimes I have to get up and rock him to sleep to put him into his crib asleep, otherwise, he may decide to hang out for 2 hours. He would wake up for the day before 5am and I have to take him into our bed for laying down nursing to make him fall asleep till 6:30 am.

A bad night:
DS wakes up every hour or more frequently, fussy. It's hard to put him to sleep. At least once a night with one of his wakings he would be up for 2 hours and wouldn't go to sleep for nothing in the world. He would then be up for the day at 6-6:30am. Or, he would think 4am is time to get up and there is nothing that would make him go back to sleep.

The problem is that the bad night scenario is waaaay more frequent than most of the books on baby milestones suggest. He can't be having this 5 months long milestone and he isn't even close to teething. I was a late teether at 10 months, he prob will be the same. He only had one cold so far, he doesn't have reflux with projectile vomiting or excessive spit up. He is gassy and solids haven't been easy for him, but this has only been 1.5 months and his sleep has been poor way before it. We get a bad night pretty much at least every week or sometimes 2-3 times a week or if it's a "good" stretch 1 every two weeks (very rare). This has been going on continuously for 5 long miserable months.

We are pretty much at the end of our rope and I don't know what to do. I am losing hope that he will EVER sleep through the night or at least have more "good" nights than "bad" until he is 2 years old. I won't survive this without falling into the deep depression (I am getting close to it) and/or requiring medication, and/or resenting my poor child and the entire motherhood. Already, my brain has turned to mush... I am not productive at work, I am barely hanging onto my job at this point... anything challenging going my way, I wouldn't handle it. I have stress induced insomnia at the start of the night fearing another "bad" night. Reading sleep books and feeding books and other baby books is just making me angry at this point, DS is obviously not "average", which is what these books tend to be geared towards. Sleep books tend to suggest all babies have the same sleep needs, which I am starting to doubt at this point.

To make matters worse, I have a mother who is dead against any CIO sleep training sending me articles and calling me all the time about how harmful CIO is and that is my duty to calm him down when crying and that he has a reason. She thinks he is constantly hungry and that is why he wakes up all the time.

Last night out of sheer desperation I fed him a bottle of EBM with 3 tbsp of oatmeal mixed in.... Never though I would resort to this method so frequently condemned by all the progressive parenting advice, but I just desperately wanted to "thicken" the BM to make it more like formula, so that it stays longer in his digestive tract. He pooped and woke up for 2 hours again, so, that didn't work.

So, when is this going to get better? Have any of you had LO's with the nightmare sleep and feeding habits and at which point has it gotten better. I just want to believe at this point....

This is not what motherhood is supposed to be about - waiting and longing for you awesome baby to get older.

Thank you for reading this long post.

arivecchi
12-20-2010, 04:07 PM
Honestly, I'd try CIO if you want to. You are the parent and you get to call the shots. We used it with boths of our DCs and it only took 3-4 nights. Worked like a charm. They are awesome sleepers now - used to wak up every two hours on. the. dot.

BabyBearsMom
12-20-2010, 04:59 PM
Honestly, I'd try CIO if you want to. You are the parent and you get to call the shots. We used it with boths of our DCs and it only took 3-4 nights. Worked like a charme. They are awesome sleepers now - used to wak up every two hours on. the. dot.

:yeahthat:

We used Ferber which is a moderated CIO and it works well. I don't think you should let your mother's opinion on how to sleep train children impact what you want to do. You are the mom and it is your choice. Be prepared that the first few nights of CIO are increadibly tough, like hours and hours of screaming tough, but after about 3 really bad nights things got better. Also, stop reading the books if they are making you mad/stressing you out. Where a baby "should" be is just an average, every baby will progress at his own pace and it doesn't matter one bit what the book says.

PGTB
12-20-2010, 05:17 PM
Honestly, I'd try CIO if you want to. You are the parent and you get to call the shots. We used it with boths of our DCs and it only took 3-4 nights. Worked like a charme. They are awesome sleepers now - used to wak up every two hours on. the. dot.

We are definitely going to try something this weekend, we have 3 days off for the Holiday and not travel plans this time. When did you CIO your LOs and did they have trouble with not feeding at night? Did they just start eating more during the day after the first 3 nights?

wellyes
12-20-2010, 05:20 PM
8 months was a similar "oh.my.goodness" point for us too, and that's when we did Ferber. It was a godsend. Really. Good for her, good for us.

Don't offer food, they will compensate with extra calories in the other parts of the day.

WatchingThemGrow
12-20-2010, 05:27 PM
YEP, CIO/Ferber. It's a tough few nights, but it will change your life, in a GREAT way!

arivecchi
12-20-2010, 05:39 PM
We are definitely going to try something this weekend, we have 3 days off for the Holiday and not travel plans this time. When did you CIO your LOs and did they have trouble with not feeding at night? Did they just start eating more during the day after the first 3 nights?My DC were younger than yours. DS1 was about 4.5 months and DS2 was about 5.5 months. They just ate more during the day. Give it a try. It saved our sanity! Remember to be consistent if you do it and not pick him up (unless you have to). Just soothe your DC and leave. Good luck!

http://www.babycenter.com/0_the-ferber-method-demystified_7755.bc

PGTB
12-20-2010, 05:41 PM
:yeahthat:

We used Ferber which is a moderated CIO and it works well. I don't think you should let your mother's opinion on how to sleep train children impact what you want to do. You are the mom and it is your choice. Be prepared that the first few nights of CIO are increadibly tough, like hours and hours of screaming tough, but after about 3 really bad nights things got better. Also, stop reading the books if they are making you mad/stressing you out. Where a baby "should" be is just an average, every baby will progress at his own pace and it doesn't matter one bit what the book says.

Ferber's was the first sleep book I read and we tried his method when DS was around 5 months with limited success. It helped at first, but then it reverted back when DS hit another growth spurt/milestone (this was rolling from side to side). At that point, my mother came in for a visit and she just started rocking him to sleep again, saying how it only takes 5 min and not a big deal as opposed to having the baby cry. She visits frequently, usually every 6 weeks, so it's hard to keep sleep training consistent.

I can't blame it on her, even though it gets tough to do anything when she is here. But we are definitely to blame as well. We haven't been consistent with any particular technique, it's been hard for us to implement for following reasons:

1) I could never tell if DS is crying for a legitimate reason and needs to be attended (like diaper change or drink of water, or he is gassy). Contrary to that, nursing and comforting him felt much easier and more natural, so we started reverting back to it more and more.
2) His mini-crib is by my bedside, so he wakes up immediately or shortly after I enter the room to go to sleep. He sort of senses I am there and whenever he hits his light sleep phase, he is up asking for attention. He goes to sleep between 7-8pm and his longest stretch (3 hours) falls between 7-8pm and 10-11pm when we are in the living room or getting ready to go to bed.
3) He relies on night time nursings for nutrition, he eats poorly during the day and it's even worse now with solids introduction. We will have to do some night weaning at the same time.

arivecchi
12-20-2010, 05:44 PM
Oh yeah, being in the same room must make it really difficult! Is there any way you can move his crib elsewhere so he cannot hear you? If not, maybe use a loud fan for white noise?

PGTB
12-20-2010, 05:46 PM
My DC were younger than yours. DS1 was about 4.5 months and DS2 was about 5.5 months. They just ate more during the day. Give it a try. It saved our sanity! Remember to be consistent if you do it and not pick him up (unless you have to). Just soothe your DC and leave. Good luck!

http://www.babycenter.com/0_the-ferber-method-demystified_7755.bc

How did you know when you had to pick him up? This was sort of the hardest challenge for me :(

Thanks! :D

arivecchi
12-20-2010, 05:50 PM
I did not pick them up. I would have picked them up if they were sick or I thought they were in distress. For the most part, they just do an angry cry. DH and I went in at the proper intervals (I think we did 15 minute increments at first, then 30, then 45, etc.).

resipsaloquitur
12-20-2010, 08:51 PM
My son was by far a worse sleeper than your baby. He woke up on average of 5-8 times a night until he was 2.5 years old. I tried CIO- he just cried for hours, slept the same and woke up and cried for hours. My mother came for three weeks and tried all the old remedies. I tried every other method out there. None worked. But amazingly, about 2.5 he just started sleeping more. Now, at 7 years old, he is by far the BEST sleeper of all his friends. Unlike almost all of them, he never wakes, never asks to come in bed with me, he goes to bed easily and is very well rested. I like to think a lot of this is because I just kept trying things to get him to sleep and finally something clicked.

So my message to you is to keep trying. What works for one child might not work for another. But there is hope. If my DS can be the best sleeper in the world, it will happen for you too.

okinawama
12-20-2010, 10:30 PM
Sleep problems are the pits! If you're not feeling like the CIO/Ferber method is the choice for you and your family there is also the Babywhisperer. there are a couple of books out there, which I know you're not up for reading ANOTHER sleep book, but there is this message board that I've looked at often.
http://www.babywhispererforums.com/ Maybe you'll find some helpful information and advice on there that will help you through this tough time!

BabyBearsMom
12-21-2010, 10:39 AM
I did not pick them up. I would have picked them up if they were sick or I thought they were in distress. For the most part, they just do an angry cry. DH and I went in at the proper intervals (I think we did 15 minute increments at first, then 30, then 45, etc.).

:yeahthat: Once DD is down, we don't pick her up unless I can smell poop. I feed her before we put her down, burp her, etc. so I know all of her basic needs are met. I go in the room to check on her every 15 minutes to make sure she isn't hurt or anything, but she is always fine. I know I may get flamed for saying this, but in your situation, I would really try to put my DC in a separate room from me if at all possible. We found that if DD was in the room with me, she smelled me and would wake more easily. If you do keep your DC in the room with her, you might want to look at the Sleep Lady instead of Ferber since Ferber has you leave the room after soothing which isn't possible if you sleep in the same room. The Sleep Lady has you stay in the room and sooth without picking up.

PGTB
12-21-2010, 03:41 PM
My son was by far a worse sleeper than your baby. He woke up on average of 5-8 times a night until he was 2.5 years old. I tried CIO- he just cried for hours, slept the same and woke up and cried for hours. My mother came for three weeks and tried all the old remedies. I tried every other method out there. None worked. But amazingly, about 2.5 he just started sleeping more. Now, at 7 years old, he is by far the BEST sleeper of all his friends. Unlike almost all of them, he never wakes, never asks to come in bed with me, he goes to bed easily and is very well rested. I like to think a lot of this is because I just kept trying things to get him to sleep and finally something clicked.

So my message to you is to keep trying. What works for one child might not work for another. But there is hope. If my DS can be the best sleeper in the world, it will happen for you too.

Wow, I cannot imagine how you could survive 2.5 years of such sleep deprivation! I guess, this is what I was afraid to hear - that sleep issues can last for such a long time with no end in sight. We are definitely trying to do something about it now.

elektra
12-21-2010, 04:38 PM
That just sucks.
If you don't want to do CIO, or if moving her out of your room is not an option, I would consider bringing your DD into bed with you. Maybe some co-sleeping parents can chime in about the logistics but from what I understand, the kids do wake up to nurse throughout the night, but both of you are still semi asleep and are able to get back to sleep much easier. I didn't start cosleeping until DD was out of the crib and it was the only way to get her to sleep, so I can't speak to the specifics of co-sleeping with a smaller baby.
If it were me, I would first try making sure my baby was napping better, and then basically do CIO. It's what I did with DD at around 15 months. She was actually a great sleeper from about 3 months to just over a year, but then we got way off track somehow. I first tried "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" and I found it to actually be the "No Sleep Cry Solution". My DD actually cried more doing that method because it was dragged out over 2 months. With CIO, she was good to go in 3 days. I read the Weissbluth book and basically followed that method- he is all about early bedtimes, protecting the nap and then doing CIO at times to get back on track.

PGTB
12-21-2010, 04:42 PM
:yeahthat: Once DD is down, we don't pick her up unless I can smell poop. I feed her before we put her down, burp her, etc. so I know all of her basic needs are met. I go in the room to check on her every 15 minutes to make sure she isn't hurt or anything, but she is always fine. I know I may get flamed for saying this, but in your situation, I would really try to put my DC in a separate room from me if at all possible. We found that if DD was in the room with me, she smelled me and would wake more easily. If you do keep your DC in the room with her, you might want to look at the Sleep Lady instead of Ferber since Ferber has you leave the room after soothing which isn't possible if you sleep in the same room. The Sleep Lady has you stay in the room and sooth without picking up.

Thanks BabyBearsMom and arivecchi and others for your support! :) We also realize that we have another problem at hand - reverse cycling and increased night nursings. I think at this age, he should be able to go without food for 6-7 hours without detriment to his growth. I am pretty much ready to night wean and this is what we will do first, just to rule out the waking for hunger problem. If DS stops eating at night, but still continues to wake up, we will start Ferber method to teach him to fall asleep on his own when he hits the light sleep stage. We decided to give this staged approach a try.

Last night we started night weaning. DH slept with DS in the bedroom and I slept in the living room. I nursed DS before putting him to bed at 7pm. When he woke up at 9:30 I didn't go to feed him, DH went in to offer him milk in the bottle. DS was angry and it took DH a while to feed him measly 2-3 oz. It also woke DS up for good 2 hours, he could not fall back to sleep and kept demanding mommy. DH brought him into our bed and comforted him, stroking his back, talking to him until he fell asleep. After that DS would wake up every 1.5-2 hours, DH would comfort him and offer him water. I was surprised how quickly DS would fall asleep, he didn't object as much during other wakings as I thought he would. I expected he would cry to hours wanting mommy to feed him. I guess it must be the fact that I wasn't in the room that made it easier for him to settle for sleep without nursing, he was also very tired. It was a very rough sleepless night for all of us, but we managed to not feed DS for 7 hours and when he woke up at 6am he was ready to eat! It was uncomfortable for me too, engorgement wasn't fun and I was all too glad to nurse DS as soon as possible for his morning meal.

It might take a few nights like this for DS to start eating more during the day and stop reverse cycling. I would be glad to be done with the night feedings (and especially prolonged night wakings and diaper changes) between midnight and 6am. I would feel like a queen if I could only sleep 5-6 hours straight! I am worried a bit about my supply tanking if not nursing for so many hours. I heard that once you stop night nursing you will need to supplement. I have added an extra pumping session in the morning to hope to produce enough milk, we'll see how it goes. At this point, I am ok with supplementing with formula, DS is old enough and eats other foods (like oatmeal, a bit of purees and puffs), so formula is no different than any other food. I would still continue Bfing as long as it works and not a detriment to my brain cells.

PGTB
12-21-2010, 05:16 PM
That just sucks.
If you don't want to do CIO, or if moving her out of your room is not an option, I would consider bringing your DD into bed with you. Maybe some co-sleeping parents can chime in about the logistics but from what I understand, the kids do wake up to nurse throughout the night, but both of you are still semi asleep and are able to get back to sleep much easier. I didn't start cosleeping until DD was out of the crib and it was the only way to get her to sleep, so I can't speak to the specifics of co-sleeping with a smaller baby.
If it were me, I would first try making sure my baby was napping better, and then basically do CIO. It's what I did with DD at around 15 months. She was actually a great sleeper from about 3 months to just over a year, but then we got way off track somehow. I first tried "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" and I found it to actually be the "No Sleep Cry Solution". My DD actually cried more doing that method because it was dragged out over 2 months. With CIO, she was good to go in 3 days. I read the Weissbluth book and basically followed that method- he is all about early bedtimes, protecting the nap and then doing CIO at times to get back on track.

This makes sense, I read most of the Weissbluth's book, and he did influence me to start better bedtime routines for DS - especially early bedtime and understand sleep deprivation signs and put DS for naps. No matter what we try though, DS is very hard to put down for a nap and keep asleep unless he is rocked/nursed to sleep or is in the moving stroller. We tried CIO for naps without success, whatever worked for night time, didn't for the day time. I also noticed that he sleeps better at night the shorter his naps are during the day. like it's the opposite to what Weissbluth is saying - having 2 long 1.5-2 hour naps would almost guarantee a 2 hour wakeful episode at night! I haven't finished the entire book - the chapters having to do with older children over 1 year, so I don't know if there is more insight on that. I also noticed Weissbluth is more for cold turkey type of CIO vs. Ferber method, he says it's easier for a child to understand and it infuriates baby more to see the parents drop by and not pick him up. I find this cold turkey method easier too logistically and we did try it once with success. I have to say that it was faster to put DS to sleep - him only complaining for 15 min vs. about an hour with us going in to check on him. Ferber method I think is more parent-friendly to reassure the parent that the baby is ok and safer if there is a reason the baby may hurt himself if not attended for prolonged period of crying.

I think our problem is probably multitude of problems - some has to do with DS being sleep deprived, another with him relying on night time nursing sessions for nutrition and not eating during the day.

We too started co-sleeping with DS out of sheer desperation! I do enjoy having him in my bed, but not the entire night. I don't feel comfortable with him being around our pillows and comforter, DH and I both use body pillows. We often have to work hard to isolate empty space on our bed for DS to stretch without being tangled in our bedding. DS also likes to fall asleep accross the bed, taking space away from us to be comfortable. I find nursing him laying down easier at his last waking around 4-5 am when we are not quite ready to get up for the day, but DS seems ready to go. Bringing him into our bed and me nursing him laying down puts him to sleep for another 1-2 hours, we are usually just greatfull for this and we also enjoy waking up with him together to play at 6am without having to rush to get up. Otherwise, I don't really like co-sleeping and don't think it will work for us for the entire night. I tried and I find it difficult to position DS correctly for him to latch on without both of us completely waking up, me trying to crane my neck and hitting my head on the headboard, DS crying searching for the nipple. I can see how it can be a life saver if this works and if there is no risk of suffocation, perhaps with older child who has more control of his body.

BabyBearsMom
12-21-2010, 05:18 PM
I didn't notice a decrease in my day time supply when we stopped night time nursing. I think it just depends on the mom. One thing to keep in mind, during the day your baby will need to eat more. If I remember correctly, you WOTH FT, right? So if you are pumping, you will probably still make the same amount that you were pumping before but the baby will need more, so you will either have to add another pumping session or supplement. We supplemented and had no problems with it. When DD stopped night feeding, she went from four 4 oz bottles while I was at work, to two 6 oz bottles and two 4 oz bottles.

PGTB
12-21-2010, 05:27 PM
I didn't notice a decrease in my day time supply when we stopped night time nursing. I think it just depends on the mom. One thing to keep in mind, during the day your baby will need to eat more. If I remember correctly, you WOTH FT, right? So if you are pumping, you will probably still make the same amount that you were pumping before but the baby will need more, so you will either have to add another pumping session or supplement. We supplemented and had no problems with it. When DD stopped night feeding, she went from four 4 oz bottles while I was at work, to two 6 oz bottles and two 4 oz bottles.

That's good to know, I always wondered just how much more he would need to eat. I am a bit worried because most of his meals have been night time feedings. He has been eating between 8-12 oz during the day when I am gone, this includes milk feedings and solids - total. When he reverse cycles (feeds every 2 hours or more during the night), he eats even less during the day and I have left over milk. The excess milk would always disappear after the weekend when I would only pump once a day and nurse more.

PGTB
01-06-2011, 06:07 PM
We have started with night time weaning and that part has been successful so far. the first week, DH has slept with DS in the bedroom and I slept in the living room. this way DS could not find me to cry his way to the boob. After about 2-3 days DS would become very easy to soothe without nursing. the problem though, is that DH would bring DS into our bed to make it easier for him to pat his back and soothe him and of course DS has taken a liking to sleeping in our bed! ;)

After a week, I came back to family bed and started sleeping on the other side of the bed, while DH would sleep on the side of the crib. DS would wake up and not be able to see me, so this worked, but the fact that we had to bring DS into our bed still remained.

Now, we are sleeping with DS pretty much every day. Before it used to be we co-slept only after 4am (if DS would wake up for his usual 2 hour play period too early in the morning, but not technically in the middle of the night). Now, he has another cold :( and we feel sorry for him, so he has been in our bed pretty much since the beginning of the night.

co-sleeping isn't something we planned, but it has been working so far in getting us all a bit more sleep. I guess, the main thing that it helps is eliminating the prolonged 2 hour wakeful periods in the middle of the night, hopefully, keeping our fingers crossed.

I am also glad to stop BFing in the middle of the night. I honestly don't miss it, I still nurse in the mornings and at night and pump 2 times a day. I hope the night weaning is permanent.

Next thing we have to work on is getting DS to sleep in his crib again. That will probably be a hard one and we will have to wait till he gets healthy and well again for any sort of training. Any tips from co-sleepers on getting your baby successfully sleeping in their own beds?

Schmitty21
01-20-2011, 12:54 PM
Hi there,
My son is 5-months and I am in the same boat as you. Lots of night-feedings, sleepless nights, and I work full time. I am encouraged by your idea of sleeping in the living room and having DH soothe in the middle of the night to end the night-weanings. I really want to try it. A week seems totally doable! DS sleeps in a bed-side crib (the Arm's Reach co-sleeper) and often ends up in the bed with us. Well, always ends up in the bed with us.
I'm not sure how this forum is set up, but is there a way we could message back and forth to compare notes? I added you to my contacts, but don't know what that does.... :-)

PGTB
01-20-2011, 06:06 PM
Hi there,
My son is 5-months and I am in the same boat as you. Lots of night-feedings, sleepless nights, and I work full time. I am encouraged by your idea of sleeping in the living room and having DH soothe in the middle of the night to end the night-weanings. I really want to try it. A week seems totally doable! DS sleeps in a bed-side crib (the Arm's Reach co-sleeper) and often ends up in the bed with us. Well, always ends up in the bed with us.
I'm not sure how this forum is set up, but is there a way we could message back and forth to compare notes? I added you to my contacts, but don't know what that does.... :-)

Hi there and :hug:! I have to post another update now because things have changed and not necessarily for the better as far as night weaning is concerned.

It so happened, we all got sick with a very bad cold and I had to resume the night time feedings in order for all of us to get as much sleep and rest as possible. We co-slept during this time as we had no energy to do anything else and I found feeding DS on my side laying down to be comfortable enough and easy to put him to sleep while I was not feeling well. After we all recovered, of course, we were facing night wakings for feeding again. The only good thing for now is that DS is not waking as frequently. it's more like every 3 hours and we don't waste time and just take him to bed and I nurse laying down.

When it's time for DS to go down for the night time, it's a huge problem because he is not willing to go into his crib when I am around. I nurse him to bed, but the moment I try to put him into the crib he cries bloody murder. So, DH to the rescue again. He manages to put him to sleep into his crib after I leave the room.

As you see I am nowhere near advising anyone how to sleep train their LO :shy: I usually hope I can get some helpful advice around here and many ladies here have been very helpful and knowledgeable. We are not out of the woods yet, not at all. Perhaps, if we were to not get sick and stick with the night weaning it would have worked. In real life though things can regress when circumstances demand for it and training has to resume again. I am planning to start in a week or two and we also want to train DS to go down to sleep in his crib whether it's me or DH putting him to bed.

One advice I can give you with long night time wakeful periods, if this is also a problem for you, is to try to tire you LO as much as you can during the day and before bed. Make sure you baby has lots of time to practice new skills - lot of tummy time and not always being carried around or confined to various seats/bouncers/exersaucers/baby restraining devices. 5 months is a period when they really start to enjoy new mobility - learn to roll over, then from then on - sit up and then crawl. For some babies, like our DS, this results in major sleep disruptions like 2 hour wakeful periods during the night. If they don't get enough practice during the day, I am guessing they take this exercise to the nighttime. At least this is what we sort of noticed about DS. When we would tire him out, he usually slept better and didn't wake up for 2 hours to stay up at night. At least this is my new theory for now ;)

If your baby is reverse-cycling because you are at work and wants to nurse at night, you can try what we tried, hopefully it will work for you and your DS will start eating more during the night.

If you want to send private messages, there is a way to do this here. It will send a sort of an e-mail to a particular user without sending to the entire thread. You can PM me if you have specific questions.

HTH and GL!